Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

They have interernal staff who look at stuff, internal playtesting, and external playtesting.

They don't frequently go into detail about why a specific change was made.

The Community team will make comments on what's good and why, but they don't have direct access to the rules team - so they've got only slightly more insight than we do.

 Marmatag wrote:


And Vortex is the worst spell in the game. It's a bad smite that can hurt your dudes.

Arguably, the worst one is 'eadbanger.

Vortez ain't bad as a leftover opportunistic power. It becomes much better later on when there are mostly characters and msu left on board. So, it's better on tougher characters.

Bharring wrote:
They have interernal staff who look at stuff, internal playtesting, and external playtesting.

They don't frequently go into detail about why a specific change was made.

The Community team will make comments on what's good and why, but they don't have direct access to the rules team - so they've got only slightly more insight than we do.

It seems kind of a strange, how do people know what was design intent. In Xwing the team goes really in depth to explain why each unit has a different cost.

There are some design commentary notes released. And some things are inferred by decisions made. But it's nowhere near as concrete or in depth as some other companies.

Unfortunately WH isn't X wing (from rules and contact with rule team points of views).
We'll never know what the rule team actually thinks.

 koooaei wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


And Vortex is the worst spell in the game. It's a bad smite that can hurt your dudes.

Arguably, the worst one is 'eadbanger.

Vortez ain't bad as a leftover opportunistic power. It becomes much better later on when there are mostly characters and msu left on board. So, it's better on tougher characters.

How is it better than smite? If you're going to argue that vortex becomes much better... how would you characterize regular smite? Because if you're going to make that case, there are a ton of better choices than GK...

Of course I completely disagree with your comment, Vortex is only useful when things are clumped, and things aren't clumped at the end of the game. It is most useful in the early game, and after a deep strike, which whoops, you can't do anymore.

Karol wrote:
Does GW ever explain why they do changes like that? Is it just in house playtesting or do they out source it?

They had playtesters back in 6th and ignored their advice, who knows how it is now

He wasn't saying it was better than Smite. He was saying it was better than at least one other spell in the game.

Do GK really have no psykers who can manifest 2+ powers?

Off the top of my head Draigo, a Librarian and, Voldus can cast 2+ powers.

 Marmatag wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


And Vortex is the worst spell in the game. It's a bad smite that can hurt your dudes.

Arguably, the worst one is 'eadbanger.

Vortez ain't bad as a leftover opportunistic power. It becomes much better later on when there are mostly characters and msu left on board. So, it's better on tougher characters.

How is it better than smite? If you're going to argue that vortex becomes much better... how would you characterize regular smite? Because if you're going to make that case, there are a ton of better choices than GK...

Of course I completely disagree with your comment, Vortex is only useful when things are clumped, and things aren't clumped at the end of the game. It is most useful in the early game, and after a deep strike, which whoops, you can't do anymore.

I think it's obvious. D3 mw to possibly 2-3 units are better than 1 mw to 1 unit. And yes, it's opportunistic as i've said. However, it's not that rare to get in such situations where it can be used. Especially good in some situations.

 koooaei wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


And Vortex is the worst spell in the game. It's a bad smite that can hurt your dudes.

Arguably, the worst one is 'eadbanger.

Vortez ain't bad as a leftover opportunistic power. It becomes much better later on when there are mostly characters and msu left on board. So, it's better on tougher characters.

How is it better than smite? If you're going to argue that vortex becomes much better... how would you characterize regular smite? Because if you're going to make that case, there are a ton of better choices than GK...

Of course I completely disagree with your comment, Vortex is only useful when things are clumped, and things aren't clumped at the end of the game. It is most useful in the early game, and after a deep strike, which whoops, you can't do anymore.

I think it's obvious. D3 mw to possibly 2-3 units are better than 1 mw to 1 unit. And yes, it's opportunistic as i've said. However, it's not that rare to get in such situations where it can be used. Especially good in some situations.

yes, this is obvious, but vortex has a warp charge of 8...

Good gravy.

Vortex only deals wounds if your opponent is completely unaware of how the spell works. This spell literally requires your opponent have a complete ignorance of the power to function.

Ignoring all of that.

You need an 11 (because of +1) to get D6 wounds out of it. And you cast it on a 7 (also because of +1).

The expected mortal wounds per cast of Vortex of Doom is 1.29. It has a tiny range and can hurt your guys. If they clump up 2 characters, that doubles to 2.6 mortal wounds. This is garbage.

Maybe GK could get some aoe pull spell. A 9" radius that pulls all models to the caster 2d6", unless they hit impassible terrain and then they take mortal wounds. The make a interceptor HQ, and you could take shunt behind some LoS blocking terrain, cast the aoe, make everything hit walls and take MW, and then blast them with the Vortex.

 Danarc wrote:
Unfortunately WH isn't X wing (from rules and contact with rule team points of views).
We'll never know what the rule team actually thinks.

I know what they think. They think a psychic army should actually have worse psychic abilities than an army of clowns.

Well you know, clowns of a feather.

Wait, you're upset that an army of clowns serving a Chaos God coming from a race where every member is a psker and being glass cannon with little firepower, "happens" to have better psyker powers than "SM+1" pskers?

Like, why wouldn't they?

Little firepower? The army I faced the other day had fusion pistols on open topped vehicles. 2 of those pistols can take down a dreadnaught with average rolls.
Also everyone has a 4++ save. They're also incredibly mobile. So I don't know if "glass cannon" is appropriate.

I meant thematically. Thematically, Harlies are glass cannons who die to boltguns (they do die to boltguns fast enough, but that 4++ and their vehicles change things). Thematically, they don't have a lot of firepower (those pistols have 6" range, 3" for the melta rule, and only a couple "big guns" that are about what you'd see on a Tac squad).

I'm disagreeing with the idea that Harlies should be worse psykers than GK. I'm not claiming Harlies are weaker than GK.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Little firepower? The army I faced the other day had fusion pistols on open topped vehicles. 2 of those pistols can take down a dreadnaught with average rolls.
Also everyone has a 4++ save. They're also incredibly mobile. So I don't know if "glass cannon" is appropriate.

Harlequins are much, much stronger than Grey Knights. There is no debate here, I highly doubt anyone would take the contrarian stance.

And Grey Knights would really benefit from some diversity in their unit choices. My guess is, they'll get primaris, and GW will call them balanced.

 koooaei wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


And Vortex is the worst spell in the game. It's a bad smite that can hurt your dudes.

Arguably, the worst one is 'eadbanger.

Orks don't even have their codex yet, so the fact you had to go right to that one says a lot about Vortex.

Can we just agree that Vortex is in the running for the worst? If not actually the worst its a solid runner up?

'eadbanger only sucks because there isn't anything T4/T3 worth using it on right now. Although, if that changes, the power could be solid.

Imagine someone has Saint Celestine, and you just slay that outright on a 4+, even if there are Superia to tank wounds. There are use cases for this power. The only problem is, the other powers are SO good, and it is worse overall than smite in a take-all-comers situation.

Vortex in its current form will *never* be useful.

 LunarSol wrote:
Can we just agree that Vortex is in the running for the worst? If not actually the worst its a solid runner up?

I don't know - space marines have a really terrible line shot mortal wound attack. It does a single mortal wound to everything within 3d6 in a straight line I think. Warp charge 7. You would honestly be lucky to do more than 1 mortal wound with it with it's terrible range.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Can we just agree that Vortex is in the running for the worst? If not actually the worst its a solid runner up?

I don't know - space marines have a really terrible line shot mortal wound attack. It does a single mortal wound to everything within 3d6 in a straight line I think. Warp charge 7. You would honestly be lucky to do more than 1 mortal wound with it with it's terrible range.

Still better than Vortex.

SJ

I mean Imperial Guard has the same power.

Except the line is 2d6.

And it only does a mortal wound on a 4+.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I mean Imperial Guard has the same power.

Except the line is 2d6.

And it only does a mortal wound on a 4+.

Okay - I think we found the winner!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Can we just agree that Vortex is in the running for the worst? If not actually the worst its a solid runner up?

I don't know - space marines have a really terrible line shot mortal wound attack. It does a single mortal wound to everything within 3d6 in a straight line I think. Warp charge 7. You would honestly be lucky to do more than 1 mortal wound with it with it's terrible range.

Still better than Vortex.

SJ

Ehhh...vortex is situational but it can be great because it has high potential. It at least forces your opponent to spread out a little bit. Kind of like an area denial weapon - you never have to cast it. On someone like Voldus he can just cast his other 2 powers and trash smite so holding vortex never hurts him.

Also for example if you have a single strike marine with the power and you don't mind losing him - run him right into the gauntlet and let it rip.

I'm not saying the power is great (marmatag actaully taught me why it sucks because I was misusing it before) but at least it still has potential. Sadly - Greyknights have NO potential.

Purge soul should also be in consideration for worst power. You have to successfully manifest it and then win a Ld roll to inflict mortal wounds. There aren't a lot of units that don't have Ld 8+ that are worth using the power on. And you have to be within 12" to use it.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Purge soul should also be in consideration for worst power. You have to successfully manifest it and then win a Ld roll to inflict mortal wounds. There aren't a lot of units that don't have Ld 8+ that are worth using the power on. And you have to be within 12" to use it.

Slaanesh's Cacophonic Choir is the same, except it has the same targeting restrictions as Smite, meaning the enemy controls what you hit with it.

So it's worse.

I don't agree with some of the things said here, so let's back up. Instead of arguing what is worse, let's grade out the powers, evaluated in the context of GK and how they operate.


Gate of Infinity: C
I give this power a C because it can only be used on Grey Knights keyword models. With unreliable charges and poor shooting overall, Gate of Infinity is useful primarily in that it allows for the potential movement of otherwise essentially immobile squads. Should you run overpriced vehicles, they can be gated out of combat, although that begs the question, why are you running these vehicles in the first place?

Astral Aim: B
This power would be an "A" in any other codex, it is fantastic in what it aims to do, it is just unfortunate that it is found in the Grey Knight codex. Shooting without line of sight is only as good as the guns you're actually shooting. Grey Knights lack meaningful firepower. Ignoring cover is okay but not great.

Hammerhand: C-
Another power that really doesn't get any meaningful use because it requires being cast before the charge is made. If the game shifts into the realms of lower model counts and high toughness targets with no invulnerable save, this power could move up the ranks as it would allow strength 5 weapons to wound T8 on 4s. But again, the delivery system of Grey Knights is so bad that it doesn't actually provide much to the army. Only affecting one unit really hurts this power. As an aura it might be better. Consider the blood angels chapter tactic, dramatically better, and still mediocre.

Sanctuary: B
This is a solid power, the ability to increment an invulnerable save is essential to an army that cannot afford to lose any models. This power right here gives your GMNDK a chance to survive. Since the codex is built around leveraging this specific model, and given its general uses, this power is solid, wholly because it makes your best unit better. Outside of this, it can be cast on terminators wielding a nemesis force stave, so when in combat, they would have a 3++. Again not game breaking, but given the context of this awful army, it's a solid power. Unfortunately it only affects one squad, which makes it incredibly easy to play around.

Purge Soul: C-
This power's use can be summed up in 2 specific cases: Firstly, when you want to attempt to swing mortal wounds at a character with mediocre leadership (8, or 9). You can potentially deal 5 mortal wounds on 1 cast target a character. Secondly, when facing low-leadership units. Unfortunately the number of these units are actually really small. Units like Ork Boyz are functionally immune because of their morale rules. The idea is nice, but the execution is poor.

Vortex of Doom: F
While this may not be the worst power in the game, it is certainly terrible, it's expected mortal wounds is pathetic, and its high casting value means it's failing quite a bit. The use cases are further limited, if it is cast in combat, you will hit your own psyker should you succeed. In essence, a smite with less range, that is more difficult to cast, and can hurt your dudes. Normally you'd ask "why not just cast smite?" Well, that brings us to the next power. If Grey Knights were suddenly buffed to Custodes level awesome, this power would still not see use.

Smite / Rites of Banishment - 12" Range: F
The worst smite in the game deals 1 mortal wound instead of D3/D6, and is cast at 12" instead of 18". Even Grey Knight librarians have this power, making them a wholly worthless choice in the army. The head of ITC and GW beta testers has commented on this very forum that if you're casting smite as Grey Knights, you're doing it wrong. You do deal 3 mortal wounds to daemons, but be careful not to kill them or they'll just come back.

Smite / Rites of Banishment - 3" Range: D-
The ability to do a guaranteed D6 mortal wounds with smite sound amazing, and anyone who has never played Grey Knights before is salivating at the thought of doing this to someone. Unfortunately this ability only comes on Purifiers, which are 140 points for 5 basic strike marines, and Castellan Crowe, the HQ with a chainsword and storm bolter. People who let you get in range with this spell are the kind of opponents you need as Grey Knights to make them playable. In the context of Grey Knights, if the army functioned, this power might function too, which is why it gets better than an F. And remember, D6 expects 3.5. D3 expects 2. So this is still barely better damage wise than a normal smite, but doesn't have that 18" range.

And these are my grades. Some of the powers being discussed I would also grade very low. Remember, too, there is no "F-," because an F means failure, and you do not receive a grade.

Very generous. Personally, I think the mediocrity, yet kind of meat and potatoes functionality of these spells makes being able to cast them more than once per psychic phase a good way to fix things in the matched play rules. Probably still limit each psyker to 1 cast of each, but in general it feels like the idea is that these spells should be providing pretty considerable utility across the army that matched play currently forbids.

Also, the daemon rule is probably the one thing in 8th I cannot comment on in any sort of rational or polite manner.