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I agree, terminator's point cost is fine, they are supposed to be big stuff. They can be slow, not overly powerful in melee and with just about decent ranged, it is still fine if you make them really hard to take out, like they should be.

Which is why i say that the crux terminator rule has to change, the 5++ does not actually represent anything in the fluff, the terminator armour is just a really hard thing to punch through, nothing mystic, no force fields, no nothing.

It needs to be 2+ without invul saves and an additional rule that makes them the most armoured thing in the imperium. 2d6 armour save would be too much and would slow down things. You either have them interact with the AP mechanic like i suggested (ignore AP-1 and reduce AP-2 to AP-1), or completely change design and make them little dreadnaughts, T7 3+ 2W.

You can make terminators as armoured as you like. Their problem is that you pay 200 points for a unit which is rubbish at anything you might want them to accomplish. Their shooting isnt "just about decent", its trash tier awful. Strike squad stormbolters are expensive - would you pay double for the same? Their melee isnt much good either with a low number of inaccurate attacks. Finally they are incredibly slow so they can be easilly screened out.

Played as gk today. A bunch of strikers, psylancer devastator guyz in a razorback, voldus, champ and landraider crusader vs typhus + zombies, some plague marines in rhinos, a bunch of characters and spawns. Gk were pretty good and managed to win the game thanks to great strategems. Psybolts and fighting twice are good. Cp are a problem so is low model count, but units themselves are pretty good and versatile. Not cheap but stormbolter and a force weapon for just 21 pts ain't bad when you can mitigate enemy shioting somehow. I'm sure, something like a leman russ gunline would be close to unbeatable but more diverse lists with a mixed army approach are beatavle for gk.

There's always going to be a worst army for any edition, its just how rankings/balancing works.

It's the gap between the best, and the worst, that's important.

That said, the two biggest problems for GK are; 1) That they're marines (which are overpriced to begin with), and 2) They fall into the trap of trying to out-elite the elite army to begin with, on top of having new gimmicks and powers - which ultimately just results in more points for no real increase in anything but random toys (which are largely bunk anyways since GW can't balance).

They're Custodes before GW knew how to properly stat Custodes; and now occupy the same niche - to be the "most elite of the elite"...ad naseum.

As such, I can agree that GK are pretty bad in general; but at least they're Imperium, which means you can couple the few good units they have with a rest of an army. And worst case, just paint different marines/custodes grey, and call it a GK.

Any discussion about balancing terminators needs to begin with a clear definition of what their use case should be.

Is it as an offensive shooting unit?
Is it as a defensive melee unit?
Are they anti-vehicle? Anti-horde? Anti-elite infantry?

And if they're dipping their toes into multiple ponds, what is the ratio?

Essentially, if i'm fielding terminators, what is the ideal situation for them?

I have yet to see a general agreement on what their intended use should be... Once that is determined then you can talk about balancing them. Giving them an extra wound wouldn't really do much if you view them as an anti-elite offensive melee infantry unit. And giving them an extra attack wouldn't do anything if you view them as a defensive light anti-horde shooting unit.

Tyel wrote:
You can make terminators as armoured as you like. Their problem is that you pay 200 points for a unit which is rubbish at anything you might want them to accomplish. Their shooting isnt "just about decent", its trash tier awful. Strike squad stormbolters are expensive - would you pay double for the same? Their melee isnt much good either with a low number of inaccurate attacks. Finally they are incredibly slow so they can be easilly screened out.

Terminators should probably not pay for SBs if SoT pay the same points for a much better weapon. Terminators are "ok" at hurting stuff in melee. Power fists should probably lose the -1 to hit. If terminators are difficult to shift with moderate damage then they fill a spot for lists.

It's roll should be exactly what the dreadnoughts roll is. They are mini dreadnoughts that can go places dreadnoughts can't go.

Dreadnoguhts have mixed rolls. Full shooty / full CC / or tactical setup mixed setup. Dreads also suck for the same reason as terms. Too easy to kill for their cost - don't want to move with heavies because they are -1. Weak AF weapon options.

Ultimately it gets back to the fact that T7 3+ without an invulnerable save isn't that hot in 8th edition.

But terminators use case can't be tied to durability. Custodes already do that far better.

Grey Knights terminators might be an interesting play if their force weapons ignored invulnerable saves. It would be a niche use case.

Points drop would absolutely help terminators. If we are using Codexrukhari as a model, they are 25 ppm models.

 Marmatag wrote:
Ultimately it gets back to the fact that T7 3+ without an invulnerable save isn't that hot in 8th edition.

But terminators use case can't be tied to durability. Custodes already do that far better.

Grey Knights terminators might be an interesting play if their force weapons ignored invulnerable saves. It would be a niche use case.

Which is why Terminators should be shown with better skill with their weapons.

Make Terminators outside the Grey Knights troop choice WS/BS2+, and BAM you solve the issues of little offense and not stepping on the toes of Custodes. The troop Terminator Grey Knights just need decent point cut to be viable.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Ultimately it gets back to the fact that T7 3+ without an invulnerable save isn't that hot in 8th edition.

But terminators use case can't be tied to durability. Custodes already do that far better.

Grey Knights terminators might be an interesting play if their force weapons ignored invulnerable saves. It would be a niche use case.

Which is why Terminators should be shown with better skill with their weapons.

Make Terminators outside the Grey Knights troop choice WS/BS2+, and BAM you solve the issues of little offense and not stepping on the toes of Custodes. The troop Terminator Grey Knights just need decent point cut to be viable.

I would also let GK terminators take stormshields, like Custodes. So, one guy can have a shield, blocking for the rest.

GK need The Shrouding back, giving them a -1 to be hit outside of 12”-18”. That would help with survivability.

All TDA need at least 3 wounds, again to increase survivability.

GK need a parry rule for their Nemesis Force Swords, granting +1 to their Invul save, which lets them simulate Storm Shield with a little effort from Sanctuary or Heed. This would boost survivability across all GK, but more so for GKT as well as making Swords a viable option over Falchions.

SJ

 Marmatag wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Ultimately it gets back to the fact that T7 3+ without an invulnerable save isn't that hot in 8th edition.

But terminators use case can't be tied to durability. Custodes already do that far better.

Grey Knights terminators might be an interesting play if their force weapons ignored invulnerable saves. It would be a niche use case.

Which is why Terminators should be shown with better skill with their weapons.

Make Terminators outside the Grey Knights troop choice WS/BS2+, and BAM you solve the issues of little offense and not stepping on the toes of Custodes. The troop Terminator Grey Knights just need decent point cut to be viable.

I would also let GK terminators take stormshields, like Custodes. So, one guy can have a shield, blocking for the rest.

In the Daemonhunters codex they did have access to Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields. It wouldn't be a bad option to have again for a decent meat shield in the squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
GK need The Shrouding back, giving them a -1 to be hit outside of 12”-18”. That would help with survivability.

All TDA need at least 3 wounds, again to increase survivability.

GK need a parry rule for their Nemesis Force Swords, granting +1 to their Invul save, which lets them simulate Storm Shield with a little effort from Sanctuary or Heed. This would boost survivability across all GK, but more so for GKT as well as making Swords a viable option over Falchions.

SJ

Any increase to survivability like that and you step on the toes of Custodes. Why are people always talking about increasing their survivability? If they don't have any offensive output, all you do is waste 200+ points on something sitting there instead of 200+ points on a Kill Point for the opponent. I'd rather they made an impact the moment they drop.

With that said, a Shrouding outside 18" wouldn't be terribly broken would it?

You can not be paying 40+ pts for 2 W models in 8th. You just can't.

Martel732 wrote:
You can not be paying 40+ pts for 2 W models in 8th. You just can't.

If we skip over the trait for a moment Custodes are 40 for 3 T5 wounds 2+/5++ - 13.33 points per wound (bikes are 20 per T6 wound).
Terminators are 13 points per wound as well, but not WS2/BS2 or T5.

If you can make terminators tougher without touching Custodes you could be ok. Otherwise maybe a drastic price decrease to 20 points and free stormbolters could do it, I guess. My biggest problem with that is level setting all the other units that need to be brought in line without breaking something else.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Ultimately it gets back to the fact that T7 3+ without an invulnerable save isn't that hot in 8th edition.

But terminators use case can't be tied to durability. Custodes already do that far better.

Grey Knights terminators might be an interesting play if their force weapons ignored invulnerable saves. It would be a niche use case.

Which is why Terminators should be shown with better skill with their weapons.

Make Terminators outside the Grey Knights troop choice WS/BS2+, and BAM you solve the issues of little offense and not stepping on the toes of Custodes. The troop Terminator Grey Knights just need decent point cut to be viable.

I would also let GK terminators take stormshields, like Custodes. So, one guy can have a shield, blocking for the rest.

In the Daemonhunters codex they did have access to Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields. It wouldn't be a bad option to have again for a decent meat shield in the squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
GK need The Shrouding back, giving them a -1 to be hit outside of 12”-18”. That would help with survivability.

All TDA need at least 3 wounds, again to increase survivability.

GK need a parry rule for their Nemesis Force Swords, granting +1 to their Invul save, which lets them simulate Storm Shield with a little effort from Sanctuary or Heed. This would boost survivability across all GK, but more so for GKT as well as making Swords a viable option over Falchions.

SJ

Any increase to survivability like that and you step on the toes of Custodes. Why are people always talking about increasing their survivability? If they don't have any offensive output, all you do is waste 200+ points on something sitting there instead of 200+ points on a Kill Point for the opponent. I'd rather they made an impact the moment they drop.

With that said, a Shrouding outside 18" wouldn't be terribly broken would it?

The is no legitimate reason why a custode should be this much more deadly than a grey-knight. They are both genetically modified - pick of the litter - directly from the emperor - super-elite soldiers. I'm fine with custodes being t5 str 5 across the board with +1 attack - compared to a space marine term with str4 t4. Their wounds and armor saves/invo should be equivalent the space marines should just have more basic gear and ofc COST LESS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can not be paying 40+ pts for 2 W models in 8th. You just can't.

If we skip over the trait for a moment Custodes are 40 for 3 T5 wounds 2+/5++ - 13.33 points per wound (bikes are 20 per T6 wound).
Terminators are 13 points per wound as well, but not WS2/BS2 or T5.

If you can make terminators tougher without touching Custodes you could be ok. Otherwise maybe a drastic price decrease to 20 points and free stormbolters could do it, I guess. My biggest problem with that is level setting all the other units that need to be brought in line without breaking something else.

All custodes have 4++ saves. This is a huge factor - made even stronger by having easy access to -1 to hit bubble. Mainly the T5 + the 4++ save is big difference. They basically made custodes what terminators should have been.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can not be paying 40+ pts for 2 W models in 8th. You just can't.

If we skip over the trait for a moment Custodes are 40 for 3 T5 wounds 2+/5++ - 13.33 points per wound (bikes are 20 per T6 wound).
Terminators are 13 points per wound as well, but not WS2/BS2 or T5.

If you can make terminators tougher without touching Custodes you could be ok. Otherwise maybe a drastic price decrease to 20 points and free stormbolters could do it, I guess. My biggest problem with that is level setting all the other units that need to be brought in line without breaking something else.

Cheaper points is the only game space marines have left to move into, I think. Even if they made them "tougher", they'd still have gak offense.

 Xenomancers wrote:

All custodes have 4++ saves. This is a huge factor - made even stronger by having easy access to -1 to hit bubble. Mainly the T5 + the 4++ save is big difference. They basically made custodes what terminators should have been.

Oh, I know, but the cost for that 4++ isn't likely to be in the base cost of the model that gets it. It's part of why Custodes are strong, I think. It's also why I think it's a bad idea to compare to Custodes who will probably get a cost increase after having such a strong presence.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Ultimately it gets back to the fact that T7 3+ without an invulnerable save isn't that hot in 8th edition.

But terminators use case can't be tied to durability. Custodes already do that far better.

Grey Knights terminators might be an interesting play if their force weapons ignored invulnerable saves. It would be a niche use case.

Which is why Terminators should be shown with better skill with their weapons.

Make Terminators outside the Grey Knights troop choice WS/BS2+, and BAM you solve the issues of little offense and not stepping on the toes of Custodes. The troop Terminator Grey Knights just need decent point cut to be viable.

I would also let GK terminators take stormshields, like Custodes. So, one guy can have a shield, blocking for the rest.

In the Daemonhunters codex they did have access to Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields. It wouldn't be a bad option to have again for a decent meat shield in the squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
GK need The Shrouding back, giving them a -1 to be hit outside of 12”-18”. That would help with survivability.

All TDA need at least 3 wounds, again to increase survivability.

GK need a parry rule for their Nemesis Force Swords, granting +1 to their Invul save, which lets them simulate Storm Shield with a little effort from Sanctuary or Heed. This would boost survivability across all GK, but more so for GKT as well as making Swords a viable option over Falchions.

SJ

Any increase to survivability like that and you step on the toes of Custodes. Why are people always talking about increasing their survivability? If they don't have any offensive output, all you do is waste 200+ points on something sitting there instead of 200+ points on a Kill Point for the opponent. I'd rather they made an impact the moment they drop.

With that said, a Shrouding outside 18" wouldn't be terribly broken would it?

The is no legitimate reason why a custode should be this much more deadly than a grey-knight. They are both genetically modified - pick of the litter - directly from the emperor - super-elite soldiers. I'm fine with custodes being t5 str 5 across the board with +1 attack - compared to a space marine term with str4 t4. Their wounds and armor saves/invo should be equivalent the space marines should just have more basic gear and ofc COST LESS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You can not be paying 40+ pts for 2 W models in 8th. You just can't.

If we skip over the trait for a moment Custodes are 40 for 3 T5 wounds 2+/5++ - 13.33 points per wound (bikes are 20 per T6 wound).
Terminators are 13 points per wound as well, but not WS2/BS2 or T5.

If you can make terminators tougher without touching Custodes you could be ok. Otherwise maybe a drastic price decrease to 20 points and free stormbolters could do it, I guess. My biggest problem with that is level setting all the other units that need to be brought in line without breaking something else.

All custodes have 4++ saves. This is a huge factor - made even stronger by having easy access to -1 to hit bubble. Mainly the T5 + the 4++ save is big difference. They basically made custodes what terminators should have been.

Um there's plenty reason for a Custodes to be that much more deadly. The issue is that Terminators aren't deadly and haven't been pretty much...ever.

Fluff is no justification for nonsense. As you can see a space marine sucks balls in this game but in lore it's toted around being a relentless killing machine where small armies of 100 of them battle hordes of enemies and win. Everything in the lore is exactly the way the author wants it to be. The gap between custode and primaris marine is too high.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

All custodes have 4++ saves. This is a huge factor - made even stronger by having easy access to -1 to hit bubble. Mainly the T5 + the 4++ save is big difference. They basically made custodes what terminators should have been.

Oh, I know, but the cost for that 4++ isn't likely to be in the base cost of the model that gets it. It's part of why Custodes are strong, I think. It's also why I think it's a bad idea to compare to Custodes who will probably get a cost increase after having such a strong presence.

It will likely just be the bike captain that gets nerfed. Most the rest of the army outside of the blasted -1 banner I think is reasonable. Really a good example of how an elite army should look.

 Marmatag wrote:
Any discussion about balancing terminators needs to begin with a clear definition of what their use case should be.

Is it as an offensive shooting unit?
Is it as a defensive melee unit?
Are they anti-vehicle? Anti-horde? Anti-elite infantry?

And if they're dipping their toes into multiple ponds, what is the ratio?

Essentially, if i'm fielding terminators, what is the ideal situation for them?

I have yet to see a general agreement on what their intended use should be... Once that is determined then you can talk about balancing them. Giving them an extra wound wouldn't really do much if you view them as an anti-elite offensive melee infantry unit. And giving them an extra attack wouldn't do anything if you view them as a defensive light anti-horde shooting unit.

I see termies as a slow grinding force. You land the termies in a combat zone and let them slowly work their way to whatever objective they have. In game terms I'd be OK with them not having a lot of attacks as long as they have the survivability to ultimately win through to their objective. In other words high defensive stats, moderate offensive abilities and, low movement. My statline would look something like this M 4 or 5 BS/WS 3+ S5 T5 or 6 W2 A2 LD9 or 10 SV2+/4++. The Str due to exoskeleton and the T due to extra armor. I'd also allow them to fire heavy weapons without a to hit penalty for moving.

They have to have 3 wounds bro - 2 wound models for over 30 points are a joke. Too many flat 2's out there.

I was debating about that and you'll note I didn't give them a point value. 2 Wounds are twice as many as a generic marine and I could see the armor giving the equivalent of another wound but I thought it would be better reflected in the higher Toughness score and Invulnerable save.

 Xenomancers wrote:
They have to have 3 wounds bro - 2 wound models for over 30 points are a joke. Too many flat 2's out there.

They can't have another wound because you're not thinking about the consequences of that. Do Paladins need 4 Wounds? Do Blightlord Terminators need 3 wounds?

Is this actually part of their performance issue? No.

Gkt should be much cheaper. Take a regular terminator. 26 points base (according to battlescribe) ... Then it should be +2 for storm bolter, +5 (ish) for force weapon = 33pts. Terminators would see much more play at that level. Where do the extra 10pts come from? Don't say "because they are psykers"... That's like me saying another army should pay extra for chapter tactics.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
They have to have 3 wounds bro - 2 wound models for over 30 points are a joke. Too many flat 2's out there.

They can't have another wound because you're not thinking about the consequences of that. Do Paladins need 4 Wounds? Do Blightlord Terminators need 3 wounds?

Is this actually part of their performance issue? No.

Yes, it is. A pretty big part, actually. The exact same problem primaris are having.

 Smotejob wrote:
Gkt should be much cheaper. Take a regular terminator. 26 points base (according to battlescribe) ... Then it should be +2 for storm bolter, +5 (ish) for force weapon = 33pts. Terminators would see much more play at that level. Where do the extra 10pts come from? Don't say "because they are psykers"... That's like me saying another army should pay extra for chapter tactics.

Well to break it down -

Their weapon is included in the 41 points, which is a force sword. Force swords are currently 8 points so that brings them to 33. SoT are 33. SoT being slightly better should put the GK termies at 31 or so.

It's just that you pay such a heavy price to have force weapons on everything on top of terminators just...not being durable.

I could see a case for force swords on non-characters being 4 or 5 points. That might help a little.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
Gkt should be much cheaper. Take a regular terminator. 26 points base (according to battlescribe) ... Then it should be +2 for storm bolter, +5 (ish) for force weapon = 33pts. Terminators would see much more play at that level. Where do the extra 10pts come from? Don't say "because they are psykers"... That's like me saying another army should pay extra for chapter tactics.

Well to break it down -

Their weapon is included in the 41 points, which is a force sword. Force swords are currently 8 points so that brings them to 33. SoT are 33. SoT being slightly better should put the GK termies at 31 or so.

It's just that you pay such a heavy price to have force weapons on everything on top of terminators just...not being durable.

I could see a case for force swords on non-characters being 4 or 5 points. That might help a little.

I get that their weapon is included in their price. GW did that wrong and should have made them 26 points and then let us as arm them with weapons like other armies and add up the points. So make them 36. Buti agree, they are not durable enough.

Greyknights terminators should be extremely similar to thousand son scarab occult terminators. 5+ invul
(Maybe reroll invul of 1 but unlikely since that’s really an army trait) Plus thier ghetto smite.
Upgrade thier weapons to fire psybolt, psyflame etc
Greyknights are to similar to basic marines w ghetto smite and are costed much higher then They should be for niche abilities.
I can also see greyknights having +1 to bs as well due to thier precognitive abilities.
The point is thier are lots of ideas to fix greyknights to not make them custodes and to make them different then other space marine chapters without just being niche and overpriced.

Again I don't think durability is the problem.

The problem is that terminator stormbolters are incredibly inefficient. I know people get bored by mathhammer - but they are. Most would recognise regular Marines are inefficient - by some measures almost half compared to guardsmen/fire wariors/kabalites and yet tacticals around 50% more efficient than terminators.

In assault 2 attacks for 40+ points is awful. Nemesis Force Swords seem to suffer from the same curse as Harlequin Kisses - GW seems to really overvalue D3 damage. You throw GK terminators into Marines and you are looking at a 20% or less return in an assault phase. Is that worth it after eating overwatch, after regularly failing to charge? On a unit which has a movement value of just 5, so can only really do this on the turn it DSes in as its otherwise never getting across the table"? No, its awful. Same applies for regular terminators with powerfists, or blinged out assault terminators.

Toughness doesn't matter that much in 40k unless you can get it across your whole army or its on a unit that does great damage and so has to be a target priority. If you have a unit which is tough but does poor damage I am just going to ignore it or kill it last. If its slow just move away - if its fast chaff it up.

Before the DS change you could at least hail mary them 9" from the centre of your opponent's army, charge in and force them to deal with them. Now you can just screen them out. If they are reduced to footslogging they are a joke - and if they take a Land Raider you just have to laugh.