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Martel732 wrote: When was the last time the ACTUAL marine codex was good? What were marines without skyhammer or gladius last edition? Scatterlaser fodder, that's what.
7th. You know this. Everyone knows this. Arguing anything to the contrary for any reason would be an insult to the intelligence of this board.
Now, you can make the argument and distinction between a good codex and strong codex, which can have more nuance, but even then, 7th marines were one of the better internally balanced books, with lots of strong formations and boosts, and were externally very powerful. All elements of a top tier book.
And yet, by the end of 7th they certainly weren't placing like a top tier book and were more mid-tier. 7th tournaments were basically dominated by Renegades & Heretics, Chaos and Eldar.
Leo_the_Rat wrote:You seem to be missing the point. The question is limiting choices to one codex and asking which codex makes the worst army.
Purgation squads aren't overlooked. They just aren't worth the points. You have to pay a CP to DS them or buy a transport for them to get into range to use the psker power (3" range). Even then it's almost impossible for them to end up in range of the unit that you're aiming to destroy.
Psilencers are the best weapon that GK have. That's been know since page 9 of the tactics thread. But, being the best weapon in a codex doesn't mean anything in a meta where you are either losing your melee weapon (PAGK) and/or suffering a -1 to hit for moving and usually only wounding on 5+. And that doesn't include that it has a ridiculously short range for a heavy weapon (24").
You seem to be confusing Purgation squads with purifiers. Purifiers are straight up unusable competitively. Purgations get a normal psychic power, and you absolutely do pay the CP to deepstrike them, but a guard batt helps offset that. And I dont disagree that GK as a standalone book are pretty bad, but I just want to dispute the notion that they are unusable.
Audustum wrote:
jifel wrote: Back to the original post, Grey Knights are not as bad as some of the people here seem to think. Their selection of viable units is much smaller than most codexes, but with a little out-of-codex support you can absolutely make them viable. Their selection of psychic powers is the best in the imperium, and the blanket +1 is brutal. Dreadknights are still absolute monsters. Purgation squads are continuously overlooked for reasons that boggle the mind, psilencers are incredible for the points. Draigo is a badass, and Strike Squads are still very viable. A GK battalion, guard battalion, and GK spearhead is actually a good competitive army, you just have to keep your power level balanced and have a guard warlord battery for CPs. A local grey knight player has been able to use this template to keep himself relevant in a very competitive meta, he's managed to get top 3 in three consecutive GTs in 8th edition, including an 80 man major in april.
GK are absolutely unbalanced as a codex, vast swathes of their units are bad and there are only a few units I would take in a competitive list, they could really use points adjustments in the next CA, but the codex is not even close to dead.
I've mostly disengaged from GK but this is just hyperbole. Your meta is honestly threatened by 24" 0 AP guns? You have a hard time killing T6 4++ (two lucky ones at 3++)?
You know what would smash these? Basically any standard competitive list. Captain Slamguinus can delete a DKGM even with a 3++ no problem. Custodes bikers outrange those Psilencers thanks to their huge movement and will simply bury them under weight of hurricane bolters (while shrugging off return fire with a 2+). Tesseract Vaults, particularly the variant running 3 of them, deal so many mortal wounds no GK can get within spitting distance of them without evaporating.
Triple Manticores will annihilate those Strike Squads before they come anywhere close to getting through chaff. Thousand Sons are actually better Pskers who can do real damage with a real smite when they Pierce the GK defenses. GK have almost no access to the high strength fire to wound an Imperial Knight on better than 5's (while have you even seen what an Avenger Gatling Cannon does to Strike Squads or stomps to a Dreadknight?). The list just goes on. Don't even get started on how a GK should deal with Tau.
If your meta is having a hard time with a majority GK list then it's just not fielding very competitive lists. Which is fine, but when we say viable we mean can work at the top tables against serious crunch lists.
You can say whatever you want from behind a computer screen, but this is a competitive meta. He has beaten those custodes lists and those necron lists, and those Thousand Sons lists. If he can travel to multiple GTs in multiple different states and consistently podium, maybe he's played against good competition? Our meta has the top 4 players in the south region, he's not just walking through seals. I would also say that the meta here is not "struggling to overcome" GK. He isnt walking in and winning every event, thats usually Nids or DE. But its possible to compete with GK. And honestly the fact that you think that Knights are something to be concerned about makes me think that you're not exactly playing in the strongest meta yourself. Until their codex comes out, they are a complete nonfactor.
Leo_the_Rat wrote:You seem to be missing the point. The question is limiting choices to one codex and asking which codex makes the worst army.
Purgation squads aren't overlooked. They just aren't worth the points. You have to pay a CP to DS them or buy a transport for them to get into range to use the psker power (3" range). Even then it's almost impossible for them to end up in range of the unit that you're aiming to destroy.
Psilencers are the best weapon that GK have. That's been know since page 9 of the tactics thread. But, being the best weapon in a codex doesn't mean anything in a meta where you are either losing your melee weapon (PAGK) and/or suffering a -1 to hit for moving and usually only wounding on 5+. And that doesn't include that it has a ridiculously short range for a heavy weapon (24").
You seem to be confusing Purgation squads with purifiers. Purifiers are straight up unusable competitively. Purgations get a normal psychic power, and you absolutely do pay the CP to deepstrike them, but a guard batt helps offset that. And I dont disagree that GK as a standalone book are pretty bad, but I just want to dispute the notion that they are unusable.
Audustum wrote:
jifel wrote: Back to the original post, Grey Knights are not as bad as some of the people here seem to think. Their selection of viable units is much smaller than most codexes, but with a little out-of-codex support you can absolutely make them viable. Their selection of psychic powers is the best in the imperium, and the blanket +1 is brutal. Dreadknights are still absolute monsters. Purgation squads are continuously overlooked for reasons that boggle the mind, psilencers are incredible for the points. Draigo is a badass, and Strike Squads are still very viable. A GK battalion, guard battalion, and GK spearhead is actually a good competitive army, you just have to keep your power level balanced and have a guard warlord battery for CPs. A local grey knight player has been able to use this template to keep himself relevant in a very competitive meta, he's managed to get top 3 in three consecutive GTs in 8th edition, including an 80 man major in april.
GK are absolutely unbalanced as a codex, vast swathes of their units are bad and there are only a few units I would take in a competitive list, they could really use points adjustments in the next CA, but the codex is not even close to dead.
I've mostly disengaged from GK but this is just hyperbole. Your meta is honestly threatened by 24" 0 AP guns? You have a hard time killing T6 4++ (two lucky ones at 3++)?
You know what would smash these? Basically any standard competitive list. Captain Slamguinus can delete a DKGM even with a 3++ no problem. Custodes bikers outrange those Psilencers thanks to their huge movement and will simply bury them under weight of hurricane bolters (while shrugging off return fire with a 2+). Tesseract Vaults, particularly the variant running 3 of them, deal so many mortal wounds no GK can get within spitting distance of them without evaporating.
Triple Manticores will annihilate those Strike Squads before they come anywhere close to getting through chaff. Thousand Sons are actually better Pskers who can do real damage with a real smite when they Pierce the GK defenses. GK have almost no access to the high strength fire to wound an Imperial Knight on better than 5's (while have you even seen what an Avenger Gatling Cannon does to Strike Squads or stomps to a Dreadknight?). The list just goes on. Don't even get started on how a GK should deal with Tau.
If your meta is having a hard time with a majority GK list then it's just not fielding very competitive lists. Which is fine, but when we say viable we mean can work at the top tables against serious crunch lists.
You can say whatever you want from behind a computer screen, but this is a competitive meta. He has beaten those custodes lists and those necron lists, and those Thousand Sons lists. If he can travel to multiple GTs in multiple different states and consistently podium, maybe he's played against good competition? Our meta has the top 4 players in the south region, he's not just walking through seals. I would also say that the meta here is not "struggling to overcome" GK. He isnt walking in and winning every event, thats usually Nids or DE. But its possible to compete with GK. And honestly the fact that you think that Knights are something to be concerned about makes me think that you're not exactly playing in the strongest meta yourself. Until their codex comes out, they are a complete nonfactor.
You kind of prove my point here. You're right, Knights ARE a nonfactor yet they will.manhandle Grey Knights because Grey Knights are THAT bad. They're so bad they struggle against a nonfactor!
And from this description it does sound like he has a bit of an easy time. Give us his name and we'll go pull his ITC ranking and check out his placements on BCP if he's doing so well or does he not really go to the 'big' tournaments (Adepticon, NOVA, LVO, e.t.c.)?
He can knock it out if it has just a 4++, but he can also put 22 wounds on a Baneblade. Does that make Baneblades rubbish?
If you spend almost an army's worth of CP to kill a single 250ish point model...
Now a GMDK with greatsword - 5 * .972 * .833 * .5 * 3.5 = 7 //No CP needed
Custodes bikers outrange those Psilencers thanks to their huge movement and will simply bury them under weight of hurricane bolters (while shrugging off return fire with a 2+).
GK tiny smite kind of sucks, right?
Bunch of theory crafting junk:
Spoiler:
Well, if you take a BC it's 24". The success rate is 92%. If you have 12 units on the field able to smite that's 11 mortal wounds. A "regular" smite is 2 wounds with an 83% chance, but only for the first cast unless you're TS. But let's say you're going to be able to put 7 on some bananas - 6.4 wounds.
Ok, great. Now, Purgators moving with 4 Psycannons, Astral Aim, and Onslaught with reroll 1s - 16 * .583 * .666 * .333 = 2 wounds.
A 10 man SS with SBs, Psybolts, and Draigo - 40 * .888 * .333 * .333 = 3.9 wounds.
Because it would be a waste to do just Draigo and 1 squad throw down two more 5 man SS - 40 * .888 * .333 * .167 = 2 wounds.
Let's hope that 10 man SS gets the charge and has Hammerhand. Overwatch kills a couple. 17 * .888 * .5 * .5 * 2 = 5
So with 792 points 5 bikes (450 points) have died. A 57% return seems pretty good.
Let's get a smashy GMDK greatsword with hammerhand GMDK in there - 5 * .972 * .833 * .5 * 3.5 = 7
That puts us up to 6.5 bikes.
These things could get shot up, but all this can easily deepstrike on turn 2 when it has the advantage of positioning. Stuff still on table can die, but they don't need to be in RF range of bikes.
But then we're in their face, there's always the -1 to hit possibility, culexus (if present), etc.
Tesseract Vaults, particularly the variant running 3 of them, deal so many mortal wounds no GK can get within spitting distance of them without evaporating.
This applies to almost all lists, because it's a skew list.
The top triple vault list only lost to an Eldar Scorpion and IG/BA/SCDE. It beat the pants of 17 banana bikes and 1 SCDE supported by -1 to hit bubble. Does that mean Custodes are now weak?
The second triple vault list only lost to a Shadowsword, but not triple baneblade.
Triple Manticores will annihilate those Strike Squads before they come anywhere close to getting through chaff.
I get you can't deepstrike turn 1, but you can still do it turn 2. 10 SS with no rerolls and psybolts kills 15 GEQ. With Draigo it's 20. Throw in another 10 regular SBs and you get another 16. That's a hell of a lot of chaff gone - especially after morale.
3 Manticores kill 6 PA models and 4 if they're in cover. Not a great return there typically.
Thousand Sons are actually better Pskers who can do real damage with a real smite when they Pierce the GK defenses.
Most TS casters with big smite do not have any bonuses (yes, a once per game reroll, spell familiar, ahriman, and WL trait exist - I am aware). Especially with everyone running DPs. The odds of a DP getting smite off with a lowly SS nearby is about 45%, which is WAY down from 83%. And when they do get it? It's average damage is 2. Up from 1 for GK.
GK have almost no access to the high strength fire to wound an Imperial Knight on better than 5's (while have you even seen what an Avenger Gatling Cannon does to Strike Squads or stomps to a Dreadknight?).
I get you can't deepstrike turn 1, but you can still do it turn 2. 10 SS with no rerolls and psybolts kills 15 GEQ. With Draigo it's 20. Throw in another 10 regular SBs and you get another 16. That's a hell of a lot of chaff gone - especially after morale.
450 points on turn 2 to kill 140 points of Guardsmen or Conscripts, assuming they aren't hugging ruins, and that you can land in rapid fire range, when this is effortlessly denied with scout sentinels or Ratlings. Also forgetting that your deep striking squads are slow and orphaned on the table after landing and clearing any chaff or pre-chaff screens which everyone brings.
The most efficient answer will always be to shoot past the chaff.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/24 17:23:00
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
I find it sort of strange that people are okay with a codex only having a couple good units, or requiring IG to stand any kind of chance.
In my opinion, far fetched as it may be, until every unit in every codex has some kind of practical effective use in some kind of viable competitive list made up purely from one codex, there is room for improvement and conversation.
I get you can't deepstrike turn 1, but you can still do it turn 2. 10 SS with no rerolls and psybolts kills 15 GEQ. With Draigo it's 20. Throw in another 10 regular SBs and you get another 16. That's a hell of a lot of chaff gone - especially after morale.
450 points on turn 2 to kill 140 points of Guardsmen or Conscripts, assuming they aren't hugging ruins, and that you can land in rapid fire range, when this is effortlessly denied with scout sentinels or Ratlings.
The most efficient answer will always be to shoot past the chaff.
Oh yea it's super not efficient, but GK don't have a lot of guns that are useful shooting past chaff. The dynamic for them feels more like clear chaff and somehow get charges on important stuff, which I realize is super difficult at times.
jcd386 wrote: I find it sort of strange that people are okay with a codex only having a couple good units, or requiring IG to stand any kind of chance.
In my opinion, far fetched as it may be, until every unit in every codex has some kind of practical effective use in some kind of viable competitive list made up purely from one codex, there is room for improvement and conversation.
I would definitely not say that I am ok with it. The codex needs to be improved because it ha glaring weaknesses. My only point is that the codex is not entirely unusable, which a lot of people have said. It is a poorly balanced book with only a small number of viable units in it.
jcd386 wrote: I find it sort of strange that people are okay with a codex only having a couple good units, or requiring IG to stand any kind of chance.
In my opinion, far fetched as it may be, until every unit in every codex has some kind of practical effective use in some kind of viable competitive list made up purely from one codex, there is room for improvement and conversation.
I'm not ok with it. When I think about things I like in that book I never pick terminators, paladins, interceptors, Stern, or Crowe at the very least. That said most top armies run soup.
I get you can't deepstrike turn 1, but you can still do it turn 2. 10 SS with no rerolls and psybolts kills 15 GEQ. With Draigo it's 20. Throw in another 10 regular SBs and you get another 16. That's a hell of a lot of chaff gone - especially after morale.
450 points on turn 2 to kill 140 points of Guardsmen or Conscripts, assuming they aren't hugging ruins, and that you can land in rapid fire range, when this is effortlessly denied with scout sentinels or Ratlings.
The most efficient answer will always be to shoot past the chaff.
Oh yea it's super not efficient, but GK don't have a lot of guns that are useful shooting past chaff. The dynamic for them feels more like clear chaff and somehow get charges on important stuff, which I realize is super difficult at times.
My personal preference is to put your guys in storm ravens. Essentially you're playing for the turn 2 charge. The nice thing about this, is that if you screen with your own scout moves and back deploy the ravens as much as possible, they're fairly protected themselves. Being able to move 45", that generally allows them to fly right up to chaff, clear a reasonable swath with their light guns (hurricanes, assault cannons). Especially since you can pay 2cp and give the ammunition bonus to the raven's hurricane bolters if need be, as well as astral aiming it to ignore cover. Then turn 2 you disembark, shoot, and charge.
The only problem is that a few meta armies counter this hard. Especially Eldar. If you go second those reapers will annihilate both ravens and you've already lost. Should you make it to the front line, Shining Spears > GK anything.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/24 17:27:47
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
You aren't even beginning to grasp his power if this is all you think goes into it.
Blood Angels can much more easily field multiple battalions (scouts are minimum 55 points per unit compared to the almost double 105 points per unit for GK) so they HAVE these points to burn. Especially to kill a GMDK as the GK army is largely powerless without them.
5 attacks base, +1 for Death Visions, average of 2 more for Rampage (Red Rampage is 1 CP by the way, not 2) gets him up to 8, not 7. He's swinging 7-9 attacks with just those buffs. If a Psyker is nearby, you can Unleash Rage for another +1A (and with Wings of Sanguinus and Mephiston's 8" move it's not hard to be nearby). You take Artisan of War to make his hammer 4 damage, not 3. You've only spent 2 CP at this point and your math was already underselling his damage.
So 9 attacks average with 4 damage each averages 11.67 wounds, not 4.5 (even with 7 attacks at 3 damage, which is what you assumed, he's averaging 6.81 not 4.5: your math is off). The GMDK only has 12 wounds. If he fights twice that's 23.34 wounds, which kills the GMDK twice over. If the GMDK has Heed or Sanctuary it's still 9.72 wounds average for a single fight and 15.56 for fighting twice, which also kills him since the Captain is likely to survive retaliation (see below).
2 CP is thus the answer. For 2CP your Warlord Slamguinus pastes a GMDK. In an army that can easily bring 10+ CP.
He can knock it out if it has just a 4++, but he can also put 22 wounds on a Baneblade. Does that make Baneblades rubbish?
A Baneblade can actually hide behind chaff and do something useful, unlike a GMDK who only has 24" guns and has to get much closer. Apples and oranges.
If you spend almost an army's worth of CP to kill a single 250ish point model...
2CP, 285ish point model.
Now a GMDK with greatsword - 5 * .972 * .833 * .5 * 3.5 = 7 //No CP needed
The GMDK will be degraded and likely hanging around just 1W left. He's only getting 3 attacks. At 3 attacks he only averages 2.83 wounds with a 39% chance of doing 0 wounds (remember, Slamguinus has a Storm Shield).
So yeah, I think the Captain is doing just fine. FYI, the Captain only costs 129 points, he's less than half the GMDK.
Custodes bikers outrange those Psilencers thanks to their huge movement and will simply bury them under weight of hurricane bolters (while shrugging off return fire with a 2+).
GK tiny smite kind of sucks, right?
It's horrific.
Bunch of theory crafting junk:
Spoiler:
Well, if you take a BC it's 24". The success rate is 92%. If you have 12 units on the field able to smite that's 11 mortal wounds. A "regular" smite is 2 wounds with an 83% chance, but only for the first cast unless you're TS. But let's say you're going to be able to put 7 on some bananas - 6.4 wounds.
Ok, great. Now, Purgators moving with 4 Psycannons, Astral Aim, and Onslaught with reroll 1s - 16 * .583 * .666 * .333 = 2 wounds.
A 10 man SS with SBs, Psybolts, and Draigo - 40 * .888 * .333 * .333 = 3.9 wounds.
Because it would be a waste to do just Draigo and 1 squad throw down two more 5 man SS - 40 * .888 * .333 * .167 = 2 wounds.
Let's hope that 10 man SS gets the charge and has Hammerhand. Overwatch kills a couple. 17 * .888 * .5 * .5 * 2 = 5
So with 792 points 5 bikes (450 points) have died. A 57% return seems pretty good.
Let's get a smashy GMDK greatsword with hammerhand GMDK in there - 5 * .972 * .833 * .5 * 3.5 = 7
That puts us up to 6.5 bikes.
These things could get shot up, but all this can easily deepstrike on turn 2 when it has the advantage of positioning. Stuff still on table can die, but they don't need to be in RF range of bikes.
But then we're in their face, there's always the -1 to hit possibility, culexus (if present), etc.
You're missing a ton from this. First off, Psilencers are Heavy so the Purgation squad gets -1 for Deep Striking or Gating, take your pick. Then they get another -1 from the mandatory Vexilla. I'm glad they're hitting on 5+ re-rolling 1's and 2's. When you factor all this in, the Purgation squad only averages 1.18 wounds on the Bike squad with a 55% chance of the ENTIRE purgation squad doing 0 wounds. So more often than not they will do literally nothing in this scenario.
For every 5 Storm Bolters you add in from Strikes, all 5 combined only add .74 average wounds with a 47% chance of doing 0. Assuming we luck out and NONE of our units do 0 damage despite it being about 50% likely, it would take the ENTIRE Purgation squad and 20 Strikes to kill a SINGLE bike. Not Bike UNIT, a single Bike MODEL. That's a terrible return on investment.
So with my Purgation team and 20 Strikes and Draigo that's 773 points to kill 90. That's a horrific rate of return.
If you add Onslaught to the Purgation team it doesn't change much. You can succeed with 15 Strikes instead of 20. You're still burning 668 and 2CP (which GK DO have a hard time getting) to kill 90.
When the Strikes charge, you seem to assume the Bikes only overwatch 17 shots if I read that right? They Overwatch 24 shots assuming it was a minimum bike squad and 1 died from the shooting (unlikely as that is because we assumed 5 units made their 50% chance to not do 0 wounds). If the Custodes want to hammer you with bullets, they'll use Unflinching here for 1CP that let's them Overwatch on 5+ and deal 1.56 wounds, but they won't bother because Bikes travel in packs and they'll just use Swooping Dive to have a different Bike unit charge your chargers and, by the way, that second Bike unit gets to fight first. You want to know what 3 Bikes do to a Strike Squad?
They send it to -8.83W. They kill it more than twice over. They can split their attacks and realistically kill 10 Strikes and cripple a third squad (13.83 average wounds total). That Hammerhand won't do you a lick of good because that squad will be dead. Even a GMDK with Sanctuary gets knocked down to his 3rd wound profile and thus 3 attacks. Those 3 attacks don't even average killing a single Bike either (3.41 wounds). If Hammerhand is on the GMDK he can kill 1 Bike, lucky him.
In short, there is a LOT wrong with the spit-balling you put in this spoiler.
Tesseract Vaults, particularly the variant running 3 of them, deal so many mortal wounds no GK can get within spitting distance of them without evaporating.
This applies to almost all lists, because it's a skew list.
The top triple vault list only lost to an Eldar Scorpion and IG/BA/SCDE. It beat the pants of 17 banana bikes and 1 SCDE supported by -1 to hit bubble. Does that mean Custodes are now weak?
The second triple vault list only lost to a Shadowsword, but not triple baneblade.
Right, it's a top tier list and it produces top tier results. The Custodes lost that round but they're not doomed to lose it and that's the difference. A Custodes can still win an event where multiples of those lists show up too. The same can't be said of GK's. I also wouldn't call it a skew list. It's just a Mortal Wounds list. That's like calling assault armies skew lists.
Triple Manticores will annihilate those Strike Squads before they come anywhere close to getting through chaff.
I get you can't deepstrike turn 1, but you can still do it turn 2. 10 SS with no rerolls and psybolts kills 15 GEQ. With Draigo it's 20. Throw in another 10 regular SBs and you get another 16. That's a hell of a lot of chaff gone - especially after morale.
That's a lot of chaff to you? It's about 1/8th to 1/10th of what you should expect to see. 10 Infantry are, what, 40 points? You killed about 60 points worth with your 450 points of shooting there. There will be plenty more chaff and you won't have put yourself any closer to charging the artillery by shooting them.
3 Manticores kill 6 PA models and 4 if they're in cover. Not a great return there typically.
If they're in cover, they're not near the Manticores and probably not near enough objectives to win. So it's fine if they want to hide there and you can ignore them. Your math is off again too. One Manticore, let's say Cadian (they're usually Catachan or Cadian, Catachan with a Master of Ordnance is much scarier but Cadian is more common) kills 4.53 Strike models. 3 of them kill 13.59. And they will do this every, single turn. 27.18 wounds by T2. 40.77 by T3. 54.36 by T4 when they're spent.
Thousand Sons are actually better Pskers who can do real damage with a real smite when they Pierce the GK defenses.
Most TS casters with big smite do not have any bonuses (yes, a once per game reroll, spell familiar, ahriman, and WL trait exist - I am aware). Especially with everyone running DPs. The odds of a DP getting smite off with a lowly SS nearby is about 45%, which is WAY down from 83%. And when they do get it? It's average damage is 2. Up from 1 for GK.
The GK Smite is also only 12" while the Thousand Sons Smite is 24". I hope you enjoy being zoned out by Mortal Wounds fire (and you should really run this analysis against Ahriman and Magnus as well) since the Thousand Sons also move faster than you.
Then, of course, Magnus throws Death Hex on your GMDK and suddenly he doesn't have an invulnerable save.
GK have almost no access to the high strength fire to wound an Imperial Knight on better than 5's (while have you even seen what an Avenger Gatling Cannon does to Strike Squads or stomps to a Dreadknight?).
Maybe a 450+ point unit isn't the best example for this?
This is waaaaay off. The AGC does 7.11 average wounds to Strikes. That wipes a whole 5-man squad and makes a 10-man squad take a serious morale check.
And yeah, the Stomping regularly sends the GMDK into his second wound profile.
The point of that was to highlight that the IK's can do this without really a care or thought. That IK isn't going to JUST shoot the AGC or JUST stomp a GMDK, it's going to do both and then more and it will do it every turn it's alive. Crusaders are widely regarded as the best non-Forgeworld IK right now. You take 3 of them. That's:
36 AVG shots.
6D6 RFBC shots.
3D3 Stormspear Rocket shots.
The GK's have to survive with their 50% of the army on the board T1. It's going to do SIGNIFICANT damage to them.
Then, if anything gets close, they stomp. Remember, they can fall back and shoot before charging to fight again. Heck yeah that beats the pants off anything GMDK can field.
Don't even get started on how a GK should deal with Tau.
Completely dakka off drones and strike teams, remove their connective tissue access for FTGG, and charge the big stuff?
If only it was as easy to do as say.
Which is fine, but when we say viable we mean can work at the top tables against serious crunch lists.
Yea, you probably won't work top tables as pure GK - then again - neither will pure Custodes or pure TS.
You won't even work top tables as MAJORITY GK, unlike Custodes and Thousand Sons. Difference. A GK detachment of anything, even a minority of your army, is actively hurting you.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2018/05/24 19:49:50
You aren't even beginning to grasp his power if this is all you think goes into it.
A Baneblade can actually hide behind chaff and do something useful, unlike a GMDK who only has 24" guns and has to get much closer. Apples and oranges.
Fair enough, but you've added a ton of points to support him there. I've seen the relic jump pack more since BA has been a support element and not one to chew up Descent to get the charge.
He still crushes things stronger than the GMDK. While the BB can "hide" the GMDK can deepstrike. Both have relative safety measures.
The GMDK will be degraded and likely hanging around just 1W left
Yes, it's a tit for tat thing. Does the captain come down before the GMDK? How do you keep the GMDK safe otherwise, etc, etc.
On the smite stuff:
You're missing a ton from this.
I mentioned at the end of that block -- "but then we're in their face, there's always the -1 to hit possibility, culexus (if present), etc."
Here's the thing - always comparing to Custodes with -1 to hit bubble doesn't represent a true picture of GK in the game as a whole. If all we did was compare everything that way then most armies look pretty meh right now.
The purgators were psycannon types. Everyone else was SB. I don't like that psycannons are 24". It's super clunky.
In short, there is a LOT wrong with the spit-balling you put in this spoiler.
Sure, like I mentioned above I didn't work through all those things, because those things affect other armies, too. Dark Reapers excluded. It's a general idea of power and not all Custodes pack -1 bubble/culexus/etc.
Right, it's a top tier list and it produces top tier results. The Custodes lost that round but they're not doomed to lose it and that's the difference. A Custodes can still win an event where multiples of those lists show up too. The same can't be said of GK's. I also wouldn't call it a skew list. It's just a Mortal Wounds list. That's like calling assault armies skew lists.
That's the thing about vaults vs Custodes. Custodes are pretty much guaranteed to lose, because they don't have nearly the number of wounds needed to survive the MW spam. They have almost no defense for it. That Necron player took a huge victory - 50 to 8.
That's a lot of chaff to you? It's about 1/8th to 1/10th of what you should expect to see. 10 Infantry are, what, 40 points? You killed about 60 points worth with your 450 points of shooting there. There will be plenty more chaff and you won't have put yourself any closer to charging the artillery by shooting them.
For a particular section of the table, yes. You could off 5 or 6 whole IS squads. The point isn't to come out ahead on points, but to get a positional advantage.
That's this much chaff:
Spoiler:
One Manticore, let's say Cadian (they're usually Catachan or Cadian, Catachan with a Master of Ordnance is much scarier but Cadian is more common) kills 4.53 Strike models. 3 of them kill 13.59. And they will do this every, single turn. 27.18 wounds by T2. 40.77 by T3. 54.36 by T4 when they're spent.
Err, how? Working backwards:
Manitcore is -2.To get 4.53 dead you need 6.8 wounds. To get 6.8 wounds you from 2s to wound you need ~8.1 hits. To get 8.1 hits from BS4 (ignore reroll 1s for now) you get 16+ shots. How are you getting 16 shots from a 2D6 weapon?
The GK Smite is also only 12" while the Thousand Sons Smite is 24". I hope you enjoy being zoned out by Mortal Wounds fire (and you should really run this analysis against Ahriman and Magnus as well) since the Thousand Sons also move faster than you.
Then, of course, Magnus throws Death Hex on your GMDK and suddenly he doesn't have an invulnerable save.
Brother Captain. If you want to throw Magnus in there TS will have way less MW spam unless they like not having an army. If Magnus is fighting a GMDK he doesn't really need Death Hex unless you have a 3++ up. In either case GK have this nifty trick of rolling 3D6 and pick the 2 highest for denial with a +1 on such occasions.
This is waaaaay off. The AGC does 7.11 average wounds to Strikes. That wipes a whole 5-man squad and makes a 10-man squad take a serious morale check.
The math is literally right there.
12 shots. BS3. S6. AP2.
Hits on 3s. Wounds on 3s. Save on 5s.
12 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 3.5
Crusaders are widely regarded as the best non-Forgeworld IK right now. You take 3 of them.
That's over 1,700 points, which will be nearly their whole army. And they don't do as much damage as you claim. There is a reason there were no knight lists at the London GT.
I do recognize that GK will have a hard time dealing with tons of high toughness models with few options available.
If only it was as easy to do as say.
Sure, I realize that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/24 19:18:54
I'm still at a loss what the point of this section is.
On smash captain:
You aren't even beginning to grasp his power if this is all you think goes into it.
A Baneblade can actually hide behind chaff and do something useful, unlike a GMDK who only has 24" guns and has to get much closer. Apples and oranges.
Fair enough, but you've added a ton of points to support him there. I've seen the relic jump pack more since BA has been a support element and not one to chew up Descent to get the charge.
I added one Librarian (Meph being the best case scenario Librarian). You do always take the Relic jump pack but that's to ignore Overwatch. Meph is 145. Even Meph's full value added on to the Captain is still less than the cost of a GMDK (129 + 145). Though it's a bit facetious to add the full cost of Meph since he's there to do and is doing a lot more than just buffing the Captain with one spell.
He still crushes things stronger than the GMDK. While the BB can "hide" the GMDK can deepstrike. Both have relative safety measures.
A key difference being that while the GMDK is 'hiding' in reserves he can't actually DO anything. The Baneblade, by contrast, is contributing a significant amount of damage even while hiding. They're not comparable at all. A GMDK MUST expose itself to do useful things.
The GMDK will be degraded and likely hanging around just 1W left
Yes, it's a tit for tat thing. Does the captain come down before the GMDK? How do you keep the GMDK safe otherwise, etc, etc.
Not really. The Captain is 129 points to 285 for the GMDK. I can literally bring 2 Captains for every GMDK you bring and while they won't all have 4 damage weapons (just 3 damage, oh no), I'm more than happy to leave one of mine in reserve all game to force you to leave one of your GMDK in reserve all game out of fear. The moment you come down, bang.
On the smite stuff:
You're missing a ton from this.
I mentioned at the end of that block -- "but then we're in their face, there's always the -1 to hit possibility, culexus (if present), etc."
Here's the thing - always comparing to Custodes with -1 to hit bubble doesn't represent a true picture of GK in the game as a whole. If all we did was compare everything that way then most armies look pretty meh right now.
In the game as a whole? Sure, but we were specifically comparing GK to Custodes in that segment so it was totally legitimate.
The purgators were psycannon types. Everyone else was SB. I don't like that psycannons are 24". It's super clunky.
Psycannon types don't really help. You still need about 20/15 Strikes depending on whether you have Onslaught or not to kill a single bike MODEL and now your rate of return is even worse because Psycannons are MORE expensive. Off of a Dreadknight, it's almost never worth it to take anything besides Storm Bolters/Psilencers.
In short, there is a LOT wrong with the spit-balling you put in this spoiler.
Sure, like I mentioned above I didn't work through all those things, because those things affect other armies, too. Dark Reapers excluded. It's a general idea of power and not all Custodes pack -1 bubble/culexus/etc.
It was a specific Custodes example in a Custodes segment. It also demonstrates how badly a truly competitive list can punish a non-competitive one.
Right, it's a top tier list and it produces top tier results. The Custodes lost that round but they're not doomed to lose it and that's the difference. A Custodes can still win an event where multiples of those lists show up too. The same can't be said of GK's. I also wouldn't call it a skew list. It's just a Mortal Wounds list. That's like calling assault armies skew lists.
That's the thing about vaults vs Custodes. Custodes are pretty much guaranteed to lose, because they don't have nearly the number of wounds needed to survive the MW spam. They have almost no defense for it. That Necron player took a huge victory - 50 to 8.
He did take a huge victory and credit is due to him there, but it wasn't a foregone conclusion. You slam enough Bikes into a Vault in melee and it DOES break (about 3 minimum squads and a Captain should just aboooout do it). The Vault list is DEFINITELY favored, but you can hem it and restrict it enough to win a points game by threatening the Vaults and avoiding them with quick Bikes. It's like a Zerg fighting a Mech Terran in SC2 if you ever played that. There's no Zerg army that efficiently trades with a Mech army, but the Zerg can exploit his mobility advantage. If the Custodes starts packing a Telemon and/or Caladius that changes a lot as well, but this analysis was assuming the Custodes player was not.
That's a lot of chaff to you? It's about 1/8th to 1/10th of what you should expect to see. 10 Infantry are, what, 40 points? You killed about 60 points worth with your 450 points of shooting there. There will be plenty more chaff and you won't have put yourself any closer to charging the artillery by shooting them.
For a particular section of the table, yes. You could off 5 or 6 whole IS squads. The point isn't to come out ahead on points, but to get a positional advantage.\
That's this much chaff:
Spoiler:
I counted the models in that picture circle and I was over 20 before I stopped. You're not even killing 20 let alone more than that. Circle too big.
Plus with Move, Move, Move! and Advancing that gap will get plugged quickly.
One Manticore, let's say Cadian (they're usually Catachan or Cadian, Catachan with a Master of Ordnance is much scarier but Cadian is more common) kills 4.53 Strike models. 3 of them kill 13.59. And they will do this every, single turn. 27.18 wounds by T2. 40.77 by T3. 54.36 by T4 when they're spent.
Err, how? Working backwards:
Manitcore is -2.To get 4.53 dead you need 6.8 wounds. To get 6.8 wounds you from 2s to wound you need ~8.1 hits. To get 8.1 hits from BS4 (ignore reroll 1s for now) you get 16+ shots. How are you getting 16 shots from a 2D6 weapon?
I can't even follow when you write it like this, but feed it into a calculator and look for yourself.
Maybe it's because you're ignoring re-rolls of 1 (Cadians get that on the Manticores by simply not moving, which Manticores never will because they have 240" range and don't need line of sight). When I feed those stats in though, it's 4.56 wounds per 2D6 shots (or 1 Manticore, not 3).
The GK Smite is also only 12" while the Thousand Sons Smite is 24". I hope you enjoy being zoned out by Mortal Wounds fire (and you should really run this analysis against Ahriman and Magnus as well) since the Thousand Sons also move faster than you.
Then, of course, Magnus throws Death Hex on your GMDK and suddenly he doesn't have an invulnerable save.
Brother Captain. If you want to throw Magnus in there TS will have way less MW spam unless they like not having an army. If Magnus is fighting a GMDK he doesn't really need Death Hex unless you have a 3++ up. In either case GK have this nifty trick of rolling 3D6 and pick the 2 highest for denial with a +1 on such occasions.
Yes, because his 6" bubble will absolutely keep the more mobile army with greater access to Fly from simply working around his buff radius. Brother-Captain and his 5" move ain't the solution here.
Magnus himself has the MW output of multiple Psykers and there's a reason most competitive Thousand Sons lists will bring him (and Nick Nanavetti even predicted we'll see an uptick in his use).
This is waaaaay off. The AGC does 7.11 average wounds to Strikes. That wipes a whole 5-man squad and makes a 10-man squad take a serious morale check.
The math is literally right there.
12 shots. BS3. S6. AP2.
Hits on 3s. Wounds on 3s. Save on 5s.
12 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 3.5
And it's wrong. I'm not sure you're actually calculating it right because it looks like they're still saving on 3's from how you wrote that out, but feed it into the calculator and see for yourself:
Are you assuming the AVG only does 1 damage? It does 2. That might be why you're seeing 3.5 instead of 7.11 on your math, but the way you write it out is confusing to me (who only took math for Economics).
Crusaders are widely regarded as the best non-Forgeworld IK right now. You take 3 of them.
That's over 1,700 points, which will be nearly their whole army. And they don't do as much damage as you claim. There is a reason there were no knight lists at the London GT.
I do recognize that GK will have a hard time dealing with tons of high toughness models with few options available.
Yeah there is a good reason: Knight lists aren't good, but even as bad as they are, they'll still manhandle poor GK's. That's the point. I'm not saying IK is competitive, but even in it's bad state it's STILL a league above the GK. That emphasizes how bad GK are right now.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/24 19:51:32
A key difference being that while the GMDK is 'hiding' in reserves he can't actually DO anything. The Baneblade, by contrast, is contributing a significant amount of damage even while hiding. They're not comparable at all. A GMDK MUST expose itself to due useful things.
Fair enough.
I counted the models in that picture circle and I was over 20 before I stopped. You're not even killing 20 let alone more than that. Circle too big.
Draigo, 10 SS, and psybolts kills 20.
Plus with Move, Move, Move! and Advancing that gap will get plugged quickly.
Not in that particular scenario and you can force a lot more down their throat.
I can't even follow when you write it like this, but feed it into a calculator and look for yourself.
Maybe it's because you're ignoring re-rolls of 1 (Cadians get that on the Manticores by simply not moving, which Manticores never will because they have 240" range and don't need line of sight). When I feed those stats in though, it's 4.56 wounds per 2D6 shots (or 1 Manticore, not 3).
I'm not sure what you're putting in, but it shows 3.7 (avg plus std dev).
Spoiler:
Magnus himself has the MW output of multiple Psykers and there's a reason most competitive Thousand Sons lists will bring him (and Nick Nanavetti even predicted we'll see an uptick in his use).
He got an uptick in use, but didn't fair so well. He depends on quite a few variables.
And it's wrong. I'm not sure you're actually calculating it right because it looks like they're still saving on 3's from how you wrote that out, but feed it into the calculator and see for yourself:
Are you assuming the AVG only does 1 damage? It does 2. That might be why you're seeing 3.5 instead of 7.11 on your math, but the way you write it out is confusing to me (who only took math for Economics).
Maybe it's because you're ignoring re-rolls of 1 (Cadians get that on the Manticores by simply not moving, which Manticores never will because they have 240" range and don't need line of sight). When I feed those stats in though, it's 4.56 wounds per 2D6 shots (or 1 Manticore, not 3).
I'm not sure what you're putting in, but it shows 3.7 (avg plus std dev).
Spoiler:
There's your issue. Manticores are 1D3 damage, not 1 damage.
Magnus himself has the MW output of multiple Psykers and there's a reason most competitive Thousand Sons lists will bring him (and Nick Nanavetti even predicted we'll see an uptick in his use).
He got an uptick in use, but didn't fair so well. He depends on quite a few variables.
Absolutely, but he'll still do great at helping Thousand Sons crush GK's.
And it's wrong. I'm not sure you're actually calculating it right because it looks like they're still saving on 3's from how you wrote that out, but feed it into the calculator and see for yourself:
Are you assuming the AVG only does 1 damage? It does 2. That might be why you're seeing 3.5 instead of 7.11 on your math, but the way you write it out is confusing to me (who only took math for Economics).
Stikes have 1 wound each...
Yeah, but the total wounds still matter for saves. If I do 5 1 damages, for example, each Strike only has to make 1 save (5 total) to negate all wounds. Wheras if I do 5 2 damages, each Strike has to make 2 saves to survive (10 total) (effectively), thus worsening each model's odds of survival.
So you still need to put it in to get a clearer idea of what to expect except in scenarios where no save is allowed at all. We'd need somebody like JNA to calculate the more advanced probability from there (if he feels bored).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/24 20:08:19
Yeah, but the total wounds still matter for saves. If I do 5 1 damages, for example, each Strike only has to make 1 save (5 total) to negate all wounds. Wheras if I do 5 2 damages, each Strike has to make 2 saves to survive (10 total) (effectively), thus worsening each model's odds of survival.
There's your problem.
Wound => Armor Save => Damage => FNP
A D3/6/etc weapon does not force extra armor saves.
Yeah, but the total wounds still matter for saves. If I do 5 1 damages, for example, each Strike only has to make 1 save (5 total) to negate all wounds. Wheras if I do 5 2 damages, each Strike has to make 2 saves to survive (10 total) (effectively), thus worsening each model's odds of survival.
There's your problem.
Wound => Armor Save => Damage => FNP
A D3/6/etc weapon does not force extra armor saves.
Yep, brain short on my end where I converted to FNP.
Even with that though the AVG is still obliterating almost an entire Strike Squad per turn as an after thought.
Yep, brain short on my end where I converted to FNP.
Even with that though the AVG is still obliterating almost an entire Strike Squad per turn as an after thought.
Hah. You had me beside myself for a while there. I was thinking I had played the game wrong this whole edition and I had to go crack open the rulebook.
(a) Grey Knights got full smite on all their units.
(b) Hammerhand, Astral Aim, and Gate of Infinity had an affect radius of 3" and would be cast on a spot, so they could buff multiple units
(c) They permanently had psybolt/psychic ammunition as an army trait
They would still suffer from poor mobility and mediocre melee, but at least they'd have the psychic market cornered and have decent medium range dakka.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
So without descending into pure maths - what would a vaguely competitive pure GK army look like?
I guess I can accept certain GK units do offer "okay" mathhammer damage (although they seem to be struggling to get above 40% which I think is the new competitive bar).
The real issue is that they offer your opponent incredibly mathhammer damage in response. As a DE player (which is going to be the new hotness) if you ran at me with strike squads, interceptors, regular terminators, purgation squads etc - its happy days. I mean unless I am missing something basic Kabalite warriors get a 38% return against Strike Squads at 24" - becoming an eyewatering 76% in rapid fire range. Throw in a shredder for even more skewed.
A 3 shot Tau Warrior gets a 116% return against strike squads. You pay more points for special weapons on purgation squads? It gets even better.
(a) Grey Knights got full smite on all their units.
Might be a bridge too far - GM, BC, and MSUSS would be under 1,000 for 8 24" smites. Two of those in 2K for a potential 32 mortal wounds. At the very least the characters should have regular smite and I can't fathom why they don't.
(b) Hammerhand, Astral Aim, and Gate of Infinity had an affect radius of 3" and would be cast on a spot, so they could buff multiple units
Maybe the first two.
(c) They permanently had psybolt/psychic ammunition as an army trait
Psychic I could see. It makes the specials better on the move and great standing still and rule of 3 keeps Purgators from being spammed. Having heavy bolters (sort of) on everyone else might be a little nuts though.
Tyel wrote: So without descending into pure maths - what would a vaguely competitive pure GK army look like?
I guess I can accept certain GK units do offer "okay" mathhammer damage (although they seem to be struggling to get above 40% which I think is the new competitive bar).
The real issue is that they offer your opponent incredibly mathhammer damage in response. As a DE player (which is going to be the new hotness) if you ran at me with strike squads, interceptors, regular terminators, purgation squads etc - its happy days. I mean unless I am missing something basic Kabalite warriors get a 38% return against Strike Squads at 24" - becoming an eyewatering 76% in rapid fire range. Throw in a shredder for even more skewed.
A 3 shot Tau Warrior gets a 116% return against strike squads. You pay more points for special weapons on purgation squads? It gets even better.
If i had to play mono-GK (which, essentially, is impossible in a competitive environment as you have no chaff, screens, or ranged anti-tank), it would look like this:
You have a bit of wiggle room. Commit to the all-out-turn-one-assault by flying across the board and gating Draigo between the ravens. Empty their shots to clear as much as you can. Strike squads get out the following turn, as well as incinerators. GMNDK drops in turn 2 as well next to where Ravens move and keep dakka up.
The game is won or lost by the end of 2. Most likely lost.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Yep, brain short on my end where I converted to FNP.
Even with that though the AVG is still obliterating almost an entire Strike Squad per turn as an after thought.
Hah. You had me beside myself for a while there. I was thinking I had played the game wrong this whole edition and I had to go crack open the rulebook.
The argument that any fix to GK just makes them too close to Custodes is totally BS. Custodes are what the GK community asked GW to fix for GK. Custodes are a slap in the face to GK players that took the time to respond to GW’s request for fan feedback going into 8th. Instead of fixing the issues with GK, they just put all the requested fixes into Custodes.
So don’t even dare say fixing GK puts them too close to Custodes, when Custodes ARE fixed GK.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
jeffersonian000 wrote: The argument that any fix to GK just makes them too close to Custodes is totally BS. Custodes are what the GK community asked GW to fix for GK. Custodes are a slap in the face to GK players that took the time to respond to GW’s request for fan feedback going into 8th. Instead of fixing the issues with GK, they just put all the requested fixes into Custodes.
So don’t even dare say fixing GK puts them too close to Custodes, when Custodes ARE fixed GK.
SJ
Yup. Take a grandmaster vs shield captain. 162 v 120pts. Shield captain is cheaper and better.
Standard custodes are better versions of our paladins for the same price.
"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
-Paul of Tarsus
If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again
jeffersonian000 wrote: So don’t even dare say fixing GK puts them too close to Custodes, when Custodes ARE fixed GK.
But who actually plays an army of custodes?
Bikes, biker captains, the odd banner to support the bikes sure. But they are about as far from shadowy psychic daemonhunters as you can get and the entire faction is liable to fall flat on its face if/when they are nerfed.
The way I seat, GK should be able to get where custodes are in terms of durability and damage by using psychic powers. Since the grey Knights have to use psychic powers to get there however they're cheaper in point cost than Custodes who are always at that power level.
That way the gray Knights become a kind of intermediary unit. They still match their fluff and being the elite psychic Warriors, but point-wise they are kind of a middle ground between a Space Marine and a custodian.
Audustum wrote: The way I seat, GK should be able to get where custodes are in terms of durability and damage by using psychic powers. Since the grey Knights have to use psychic powers to get there however they're cheaper in point cost than Custodes who are always at that power level.
That way the gray Knights become a kind of intermediary unit. They still match their fluff and being the elite psychic Warriors, but point-wise they are kind of a middle ground between a Space Marine and a custodian.
That sounds pretty good to me. I would think that if the September FAQ doesn't bring anything to the table for GK that players need to start a campaign to get GW's attention.
Audustum wrote: The way I seat, GK should be able to get where custodes are in terms of durability and damage by using psychic powers. Since the grey Knights have to use psychic powers to get there however they're cheaper in point cost than Custodes who are always at that power level.
That way the gray Knights become a kind of intermediary unit. They still match their fluff and being the elite psychic Warriors, but point-wise they are kind of a middle ground between a Space Marine and a custodian.
That sounds pretty good to me. I would think that if the September FAQ doesn't bring anything to the table for GK that players need to start a campaign to get GW's attention.
They've literally asked for feedback. No point in waiting too see if the next FAQ provides some help, send feedback now. They had every intention to "kill Soup" ...but they listened to the wrong people apparently and Soup is just as strong as ever. Too many of the mono-faction codex can't stand up to the all-comers-Soup lists, and GK especially is just trash on its own. Eldar is of course fine for the 3rd edition in a row (just wow), but the point is - send feedback now. The Smite change, while not nearly enough, was a result of feedback.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/24 22:48:03
