A.T. wrote:And being a
troops choice, which is applicable for
GK troops choices as well.
It is the case for the marine books, and a few other factions as well (sisters for instance), that the troops choice is an obsec but otherwise poorly equipped/skilled variant of the elite unit.
So while that design policy is in effect the
GK strikes and terminators should really be looked at through the lens of 'deliberately weaker due to obsec/detachment bonuses', with the specialist units like interceptors being the step up.
Well part of the issue is that the specialist units usually get nothing other than a few more weapon options. Marine devastators are one of the few with a special ability of any kind, and then
GW seems to have lost all imagination.
For
GK, each squad is slightly different, but in fairly useless ways if the core of what a grey knight is (
SB and Force weapon) is over priced. Strikes can deepstrike, interceptors have shunt packs, purifiers have 1 extra special weapon and a better smite, and purgation get 4 specials. While these are different, and have more variety than
SM at least, I don't think I'd call them steps up. They are more like weird side upgrades.
I'd say that's probably the bare minimum of inventiveness when it comes to making those units interesting. But the fact that they are all based off a unit with low effectiveness and high cost makes them all suffer.
To me, the issues with
GK are the most obvious when you look at the state of the game when they were released in 5th, and how they have changed since then. In that time, they have gained very little and lost much.
Like others have also mentioned, the marine stateline is no longer as durable as it once was, and transports have greatly increased in cost. These two factors (Marines dropping like flies and not having anywhere to hide) greatly reduce marine effectiveness. It is like
GW has PTSD from when they everyone free transports in 7th and never wants to see a rhino again.
The 2 wound variants of Marines (bikes, primaris, terminators, etc) have increased durability vs basic 1d weapons, but they are so expensive that it's hard to take more of them than the enemy has 2d weapons, so this durability is frequently negated.
Marine non flying vehicles (predators, razorbacks, etc) are easily locked in combat to have their shooting negated. This wouldn't be so bad if other armies didn't have cheap vehicles with fly, that can move>shoot>charge>fall back>shoot to lock them up with relative impunity. The only realist counter to this is cheap bubblewrap, which Marines have none of.
Marines are also terrible is assault. Going from 11 attacks on the charge to 6 is a giant nerf with nothing given in return.
Back to
GK, I think it's useful to look at how the codex was originally designed. Their psychic powers like hammer hand and activate force weapons were previously usable per unit, which made them much more formidable in close combat, and more flexible. Their special ammo made certain weapons much more effective (
HB razorbacks and rifle dreads in particular). Their special weapons (or at least the psycannon) were actually formidable. They also had a series of cheaper units in the inquisitional henchmen to provide board presence, bodies, and additional firepower. 5-10 henchmen with storm bolters in a Chimera (which had for points) was a power addition to a
GK list. None of these things apply to
GK anymore, and you can go deeper by looking at specific units to see just how out limited and it off touch the
GK book has become
Purifiers, for example. They have no mobility abilities, can take two special weapons, and had a power that was scary in close contact, especially against hordes. Their clear use was too stick them in a rhino, where they would shoot their two guns at things until they were close enough to get into combat. Now that Rhinos cost x3 and don't have fire points, they no longer have more than 6 attacks on the charge, and their powers are no longer as good, the unit just isn't viable. This goes on and on for many marine units to one degree or another.
And, one the one hand these changes aren't necessarily the problem. If the
GW designers looked at 7th and thought rhino rush style armies were not fun and therefore not good for the game, that is a fair opinion to have (I think most people are that free transports was not the best) and doing something to minimize that playstyle is perfectly reasonable. And that is certainly what they did.
What they seem to not have done was actually look at the marine units with 8th edition in mind, and adjust them in a way that made them viable. Some of this is understandable as Space Marines were the first books released and likely the first designed, and the index versions of most factions were considerably toned down from their codex versions that released 6mo to a year into the edition. But they also made some choices that seem to be objectively bad ones. Roboute's aura is simply too effective, to the point that almost no price increase is enough, and isn't fun to play with it against because of how much incentive there is to just clump the best shooting units around him. The "fix" to this has been too hike up the price of him and any unit people brought with him, which in turn nerfs those units for all factions, such as
GK. Drop pods cost way to much, plain and simple. Most special and heavy weapons are not very effective at what they are supposed to be good at. Most chapter tactics perform more poorly than is likely intended, and are arbitrarily forbidden to vehicles. Many strategems are strangely ineffective.
The only even potentially viable
SM/
BA/
GK/
DA lists are gimmicky ones that I would argue are not fun and are therefore not good for the game. Things like 12+ infiltrating
RG aggressors or reroll aura parking lots. Other than that most books are lucky to have 1-2 units worth taking as allies to
IG (like how most
BA lists are just scouts+captain smash+Lemartes with
DC sometimes thrown in) and/or the best units cherry picked from another book (like custodes).
Rhinos are rarely effective, because there are very few units really deadly enough that it is worth spending so much to protect. The main exception to this seems to be chaos Berserkers, who actually are deadly enough. The majority of other units you'd normally want to transport just don't pack enough punch when they show up but also aren't durable enough to footslog, so they become infective units unless they have other better ways to show up, such as the deathwatch do with their deepstrike abilities. The removal of fire points is especially frustrating because many
SM units are designed around that (i don't think it's a coincidence that Tacs, Assault squads, Purifiers etc all have 2 guns worth shooting and rhinos had two fire points), and other armies still have open topped (
DE being the main offender, with transports that laugh at rhinos in about 6 different ways: speed, cost, guns, fire points, strats, and fall back) so it doesn't seem to be something
GW doesn't want in the game at all, just not in
SM armies.
This forces
SM armies to be mostly footslogging infantry backed up by vehicles, many of which are easily locked in combat. This would be okay if this play style was actually any good, but in general it is not, mostly due to low durability and mobility. Plus I think a lot of people find it boring compared to what Marines have been in the past.
I think the following issues need to be addressed:
1. Marines need to be more durable, especially vs high rate of fire weapons with -1
AP. There are a number of ways to improve this, but I think my favorite would be to have all power armor units (not terminators or cents, but yes to bikes and primaris) reduce the
AP of incoming damage by 1 vs 1d weapons. This makes them die just as easily to AP0, keeps cover as a relevant bonus, but makes them last longer against things like assault cannons and heavy bolters, but anything that actually packs damage still kills them pretty easily.
2. Marines need to be better in close combat. I think the easiest way to fix this is to give them all +1 attack (perhaps not to the characters).
2. Terminators need to be more durable against D2 weapons. I think the easiest way to fix this is to make Terminator armor reduce incoming damage by 1 to a minimum of 1. This targetedly reduces the effectiveness of D2 weapons, makes 1d3 D more relevant, and doesn't effect 1d or 3+d weapons.
3. Rhinos either need to be cheaper or have fire points back. Maybe both.
4. Non flying vehicles should not be so easy to shut down by locking them into combat. I think a good fix would be to simply have all vehicles be able to fall back and shoot, and let the mobility of flying vehicles be their main unique advantage. Having to move at all reduces most vehicles shooting abilities, so it's not like locking them in combat does nothing.
5.
GK should have minor self buff powers that present them with a tool kit of sorts, and allow them to tailor their effectiveness to what they are fighting as the battle goes on, and these should not be effected by the normal 1 casting of a power per turn rule.
6. Units and weapons should be looked at again and adjusted so that they all have a useful role in this edition. Just because a unit has already been a certain way is not an excuse for mediocrity. Strike squads, Tacs, etc, don't have to be the best unit in the game, but they should be good at what they do for the points they cost, and so should every other unit in the game.
GW should look at every gun, unit, and psychic power in the game and ask themselves questions like "what is cool about this?" "What is this thing good at?" "What role does this fill for it's faction?" "What makes this thing better or different at what it specifically does than the other options available to this or other factions?" "What would make this someone's favorite unit/weapon/power/army theme to play with or against?" "How does this unit stand out from and interact with other units?" And so on. Something like the
GK incinerator never being picked, or
IG units never taking grenade launchers, or
SM grav being a worse version of plasma, or option x being cool and someones favorite unit but sadly just not as good a choice as option y so you either take it any way and suffer or take the good unit, are all actual and serious problems that deserve attention. So are things like assault Marines being terrible at assault and everything. Or interceptors not actually being effective enough with only 1 special weapon and 5 force wep attacks to actually want to shunt close to a target. Or flamers being bad at killing infantry but okay against fliers.
7. Force multiplier auras should be removed, since they encourage units to clump together for the buffs, and it's harder to calculate their value. I think the simple fix it to make them more like
IG orders, with a limited number of units they can effect, and have any actual auras only do things that are not related to offensive ability such as increase
Ld, give charge or advance rerolls, and so on.
8. Negative modifiers to hit need to go away. They are just too good at what they do, and overshadow nearly every other defensive buff in the game.
9. Ignore cover abilities should be rare, especially on weapons with high
AP or long range. Cover effects the durability of different units in different ways (generally the better the save, the better cover is for you) so some units and armies depend on it more than others, making the ignore cover abilities either very strong or mostly useless.
10. Points should be adjusted accordingly. Points are important, and technically it should be possible to make no rules changes and still balance the game only through points changes. However, I think it would be better to change things first, making units, weapons, and playstyles effective, fun, and viable first, then change the points.
I realize that I am working off of an ideal that there could be a certain version of this game that has all factions fairly equal and all units be worth taking and being excited about, and that may not be entirely possible, but I do think it's worth trying to move towards and talk about.
That's probably enough for now,
lol.
