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Watch the video. He's obviously a cheater. And a liar.
Is he? Apart from the hammerhead push(for which nobody has shown what he gained there) all others are stuff I have done accidentally myself. So if he's cheater based on video you are accusing me cheater as well and since I know I have done purposedly none of that I'll take offend on that one.
Yes, he is. I've played cheats before, so don't think I don't know.
If you're like that, then I guess you are, too. Play better, and grow up. There's no need to get all huffy over this, unless you just realized that you are a cheater, and should be banned yourself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/23 08:19:22
Look, at such a tounament... why would you cheat? You've gotten further than 99% of the people who play. You are being watched. Why would you get so far, just to become the most reviled and humiliated player on the planet?
Maybe he never would have made it that far without all of the little cheats along the way. People who tend to make "mistakes" in their own favor are doing it intentionally. Here's what I usually do when I'm tired:
Forget to move/shoot/assault with a unit.
Forget about special rules that apply in my opponent's turn.
Forget an entire phase.
Forget about units that aren't on the table.
Bump things by accident, but then let my opponent know and decide how it should be resolved.
I don't recall being tired ever making me say that I pre-measured distances two inches shorter than they really were.
My mistakes are more like these except usually when I bump something it's a nearby table or player rather than the one I'm at.I want to give him the benefit of the doubt but too many little things.
I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go.
Lets also be realistic about a lifetime ban.
Chances are in 10 years or so he could reapply to have the ban overturned on grounds of good behaviour outside of that tournament. Ergo if he can prove he's changed his ways then there is hope that in the future he could attend once more.
Which would have the ban achieve its intended goal - reformation of a cheater into an honest player.
As several have said the typical pattern for a sloppy/lazy/distracted/tired player is to do things that are often detrimental to the players own standing by accident rather than to nearly always land in their favour.
Overread wrote: Lets also be realistic about a lifetime ban.
Chances are in 10 years or so he could reapply to have the ban overturned on grounds of good behaviour outside of that tournament. Ergo if he can prove he's changed his ways then there is hope that in the future he could attend once more.
Which would have the ban achieve its intended goal - reformation of a cheater into an honest player.
As several have said the typical pattern for a sloppy/lazy/distracted/tired player is to do things that are often detrimental to the players own standing by accident rather than to nearly always land in their favour.
To be fair, judging by how it's been managed I'd be surprised if there is a London Grand Tournament in 10 years.
I've not paid huge attention to the Tournament but yeah from the casual glance at reports from it that I've read it wouldn't shock me if it either folds and is replaced or if they have a huge shake up after this year.
So yes could be that even within a year the ban is null and void - although it wil still have sent a message and be a mark on this players track record at other major tournament events that he won't shrug off easily.
Watch the video. He's obviously a cheater. And a liar.
Is he? Apart from the hammerhead push(for which nobody has shown what he gained there) all others are stuff I have done accidentally myself. So if he's cheater based on video you are accusing me cheater as well and since I know I have done purposedly none of that I'll take offend on that one.
Yes, he is. I've played cheats before, so don't think I don't know.
If you're like that, then I guess you are, too. Play better, and grow up. There's no need to get all huffy over this, unless you just realized that you are a cheater, and should be banned yourself.
How nice of you to make assumptions about me. Well if you want to show world level of your own foolishness feel free.
I think it should be celebrated when a tournament organiser takes the step they have. There needs to be some people made examples of so that the rest of us can go to tournaments and not expect to have to be nice and frielndly to your opponents and simultaneously watch them like a hawk and try to know every rule in their books or keep asking them to prove their rules etc.
Tournament gaming should be a fun but competitive experience not a chore.
I think this tournament organiser however may be guilty of trying to create some spin over this scenario to detract from their abysmal performance. They need to come out and apologise for their poor showing and do a better go next year.
To be honest. I dont think Alex was cheating but more of misplaying. Having fatigue and being in a very hot room full of 200+ people will affect your mental and physical state. However. I do not think his reasons for miss-playing are great excuses.
If he is complaining that being tired and hung over affected his gaming than he should have gone to sleep early and shouldn't of drank alcohol?
You can't blame how you preform on others when you didn't take the right steps to prepare yourself for the next day. I know most people like to enjoy a few socials when at a tournaments to catch up and what not but dont drink to the point were you will be hung over and it will affect your game play.
Did he cheat to win the game? Probably not but he did do stuff he should of realised was wrong. Even fixing something in the same turn is better than waiting till your opponents turn and you try to "fix" to the occasion.
Is it okay to blame how he played on Alcohol and fatigue? Hell no. Alex was in control of his body the whole time. If he wanted to make sure he was going to be playing better and with a fresh head he should have went to sleep rather than drinking with people the night before and while running on 3 hours of sleep.
The ban is a bit harsh but Alex can't blame the TOs for the stuff he was doing wrong.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/23 11:06:06
Is he? Apart from the hammerhead push(for which nobody has shown what he gained there) all others are stuff I have done accidentally myself. So if he's cheater based on video you are accusing me cheater as well and since I know I have done purposedly none of that I'll take offend on that one.
He gained by pushing the Hammerhead out of the potential line of sight for the bike that jumped around the corner. They called it as not visible when Geoff went to check for visibility shortly thereafter. There is also little chance he didn't hear his cup hit the tank.
Now whether that was intentional or not...no idea.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/23 11:12:49
Odrankt wrote: To be honest. I dont think Alex was cheating but more of misplaying. Having fatigue and being in a very hot room full of 200+ people will affect your mental and physical state. However. I do not think his reasons for miss-playing are great excuses.
If he is complaining that being tired and hung over affected his gaming than he should have gone to sleep early and shouldn't of drank alcohol?
You can't blame how you preform on others when you didn't take the right steps to prepare yourself for the next day. I know most people like to enjoy a few socials when at a tournaments to catch up and what not but dont drink to the point were you will be hung over and it will affect your game play.
Did he cheat to win the game? Probably not but he did do stuff he should of realised was wrong. Even fixing something in the same turn is better than waiting till your opponents turn and you try to "fix" to the occasion.
Is it okay to blame how he played on Alcohol and fatigue? Hell no. Alex was in control of his body the whole time. If he wanted to make sure he was going to be playing better and with a fresh head he should have went to sleep rather than drinking with people the night before and while running on 3 hours of sleep.
The ban is a bit harsh but Alex can't blame the TOs for the stuff he was doing wrong.
Was he tired at the other tourneys he cheated at? Tired at the SCGT was he? Tired at the AoS tourney where he had to be threatened with a table flip to stop his bull? Tired at the two previous 40k tournaments he nudged and moved models.
People like him get away with being an arse because it's mainly decent people that want to enjoy their time doing a hobby they enjoy. It's not life and death so let it slide.
Whatever the shambles the LGT was this year, kudos for them to finally call out his nonsense.
The problem is warhammer isn't snakes and ladders. There's a lot of room for honest mistakes to happen. This is why cheaters can "hide" for a long time, because every single gamer has made mistakes in this game.
Even if you leave aside the rules debates and areas of confusion in the rules; the actual mechanics of moving models; testing line of sight etc... are all open to potential mistakes or variations in interpretation.
With cheaters its all about looking at patterns of behaviour; at repeat little mistakes that always seem to benefit them. Often repeating the same self benefiting mistakes over multiple games. Regular repeat mistakes at higher level games are more abnormal since one expects someone who places high to be pretty good with the rules and shouldn't be making the same mistake over and over.
Also its possible to get away cheating without TO being aware because they are the little mistakes that get taken back when spotted by the other player. And TO might only review game matches if requested (or review video if its taken after the game only if required).
So normally for a TO to get the point of issuing bans takes quite a lot of evidence. Plus lets not forget whilst judgement is being issued on this video of a match there might have been other reports from the day that added to it; in addition to the reports from other venues.
Odrankt wrote: To be honest. I dont think Alex was cheating but more of misplaying. Having fatigue and being in a very hot room full of 200+ people will affect your mental and physical state. However. I do not think his reasons for miss-playing are great excuses.
If he is complaining that being tired and hung over affected his gaming than he should have gone to sleep early and shouldn't of drank alcohol?
You can't blame how you preform on others when you didn't take the right steps to prepare yourself for the next day. I know most people like to enjoy a few socials when at a tournaments to catch up and what not but dont drink to the point were you will be hung over and it will affect your game play.
Did he cheat to win the game? Probably not but he did do stuff he should of realised was wrong. Even fixing something in the same turn is better than waiting till your opponents turn and you try to "fix" to the occasion.
Is it okay to blame how he played on Alcohol and fatigue? Hell no. Alex was in control of his body the whole time. If he wanted to make sure he was going to be playing better and with a fresh head he should have went to sleep rather than drinking with people the night before and while running on 3 hours of sleep.
The ban is a bit harsh but Alex can't blame the TOs for the stuff he was doing wrong.
Was he tired at the other tourneys he cheated at? Tired at the SCGT was he? Tired at the AoS tourney where he had to be threatened with a table flip to stop his bull? Tired at the two previous 40k tournaments he nudged and moved models.
People like him get away with being an arse because it's mainly decent people that want to enjoy their time doing a hobby they enjoy. It's not life and death so let it slide.
Whatever the shambles the LGT was this year, kudos for them to finally call out his nonsense.
I have no idea what has or has not happened at those other events, but looking at the list of his transgressions at LGT, uhm...
1. Pushing the Hammerhead. What's this supposed to accomplish? What does he gain? And is this something that normally happens in games of 40k without much drama?
2. Changing the wound marker. I don't know about intent here, and, frankly, I can't be bothered to even watch the video, but I've had it happen several times that wound markers (i.e., dice) next to my opponents have disappeared, or my opponent has been less than prompt at placing one. It typically isn't cheating, but it's something that annoys me, so passive-aggresively placing one myself is something I can sympathise with.
3. Forgetting to discard cards, misremembering actually having stated it or only intended to. Jesus. This happens in literally every game I've played since cards were introduced, either by myself, my opponent, or both. Has never evoked any drama for me, though.
4. I'm a bit of a stickler for measurements, but I've played against tons of guys who've been off by miles, and never thought of it as cheating. I'd see it as disrespectful and irritating, sure, but cheating? I don't know...
5. Cheating, or misplaying a rule? I'm pretty confident that if we started looking closely, LGT would have to start banning a lot more people for misplaying rules. That said, I kinda get this one the most. Screw up your own rules for your own benefits, there should be a sanction.
6. Doesn't this happen a lot? "So that's X hits" "Actually, that's a 3, not a 5" "Oh, OK, sorry."
Overall, it seems really nitpicky. I don't mind sanctions though. If he'd had all his points docked and placed last, I don't think there would have been much drama.
What I do find quite unappealing is the manner in which it's done. I'm not a fan of naming and shaming someone, especially with pretty harsh accusations (straight up calling him a liar and a cheater), publically, without first giving him a chance to respond to the accusations. It's a fairly uncivilized way of going about things, IMHO.
I'm also really uncomfortable with the community's response to this. I mean, these post-hoc gotchas like "he shouldn't have been out late on the saturday night, and top players should be flawless" just doesn't sit right with me. It's pretty low.
"The Emporer is a rouge trader."
- Charlie Chaplain.
TBH I wish the game would eventually make the move to a video game format. Can't really nudge models or mis-measure junk then. I've seen a fair amount of people take advantage of the game's physical 3D nature to nudge, roll behind terrain and pick up dice quickly, add that extra inch of movement, etc etc. And sloppy play is really hard to catch because after the model is moved, it's no longer there to prove anything unless you have vid evidence, which is quite rare.
(And yes I'm perfectly aware that the actual 40k tabletop game will never be in vidya format, that's why it's a "wish.")
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Thud
At the highest levels of the game, you are expected to play tight. Look at track and field for example. They have a hardcore insta-DQ on false starts. You can train 4 years for an Olympic race and get booted for jumping out a millisecond too quick. (Even happened to Usain Bolt in the 2011 world champs!)
Harrison is from the UK, so it's possible that they may have more data points than what they're throwing out, such as past history at other nearby events, but didn't mention it due to lack of video proof. And if they strongly believe that it was malicious cheating behavior, many people would argue that shaming is rather helpful for the community as a whole. Other TO's know to be on the lookout, and other players see an example of what could happen to them if they try to sloppy play their way through a finals game at a huge event.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/23 12:10:49
Odrankt wrote: To be honest. I dont think Alex was cheating but more of misplaying. Having fatigue and being in a very hot room full of 200+ people will affect your mental and physical state. However. I do not think his reasons for miss-playing are great excuses.
If he is complaining that being tired and hung over affected his gaming than he should have gone to sleep early and shouldn't of drank alcohol?
You can't blame how you preform on others when you didn't take the right steps to prepare yourself for the next day. I know most people like to enjoy a few socials when at a tournaments to catch up and what not but dont drink to the point were you will be hung over and it will affect your game play.
Did he cheat to win the game? Probably not but he did do stuff he should of realised was wrong. Even fixing something in the same turn is better than waiting till your opponents turn and you try to "fix" to the occasion.
Is it okay to blame how he played on Alcohol and fatigue? Hell no. Alex was in control of his body the whole time. If he wanted to make sure he was going to be playing better and with a fresh head he should have went to sleep rather than drinking with people the night before and while running on 3 hours of sleep.
The ban is a bit harsh but Alex can't blame the TOs for the stuff he was doing wrong.
Was he tired at the other tourneys he cheated at? Tired at the SCGT was he? Tired at the AoS tourney where he had to be threatened with a table flip to stop his bull? Tired at the two previous 40k tournaments he nudged and moved models.
People like him get away with being an arse because it's mainly decent people that want to enjoy their time doing a hobby they enjoy. It's not life and death so let it slide.
Whatever the shambles the LGT was this year, kudos for them to finally call out his nonsense.
Hey man, if you have evidence of all these accusations of him cheating in AoS and 40k then please send them on. Other wise I am just going to take what you say as salt until evidence is proven. I saw this guy play IRl at a tournament I was at that was ITC based and no one had anything bad to say about him besides him bringing cheesy armies.
I am not sticking up for the guy at all as I hate cheating and people who mis-play and dont fix the issue they made. I just think it was harsh that they publicly denounced him to the entire 40k community while they are getting back lash for their lack of Terrain, security issues and how the event was handled.
He probably did cheat on purpose but there was a lot of 40k streamed and I am sure a lot of other people cheated/misplayed while on stream and was not called out for it. If your putting the time and effort into accuse someone of cheating at least accuse a few more people so you have more evidence to show what cheating is and to see if others mis-play like him. At least it wouldn't look like its an Event vs 1 person as it is now.
Maybe this accusation is the "kick" competitive 40k needs to show people they mean business. But if I was to denounce someone I would at least try and do it to several people so no one person was singled out and it would also give evidence as to what I would call cheating. One TO's perspective of cheating is different to another TOs perspective of cheating so they should have at least view the video with several different TO rather than 1 singular TO or who ever manages the stream.
Thats my two-cents though. I presume your going to have a totally different opinion though.
I watched the video. I'm convinced he was deliberately cheating. And it's quite obvious, especially when he's pushing that Hammerhead with the cup of water. In fact, it would almost seem clever if there wasn't a camera on it making it so obvious (it's something that most people on a table would never notice).
I'm not sure about the 'lifetime ban'. I think he deserves a chance to redeem himself and fix this, and I think there could be a way for him to get the ban repealed- for example, if he took the time to host free painting classes at his local FLGS, work to create terrain for the next LGT, or something else for the 'community' while running some games with others to prove he can do it without cheating.
I think a lot of the claims about how crappy the LGT was are trying to muddy the waters. Don't get me wrong, everything I'm seeing about it seems like it sucks and I'd never go to a tournament like that.
Kilgore19d wrote: ...The tournament community for WH40K is more toxic than online gaming.
The worst of the WH40K community is no where near as bad as online gaming. If the biggest problem we have is some dude moving a miniature with a glass of water we're totally OK
Eonfuzz wrote: ...some dude moving a miniature with a glass of water...
Isn't a problem. It's all the fanboys and try-hards. And it's not okay. Because more than likely, they're the same personalities of terrible people from online gaming. The internet provides anonymity, playing on the table top doesn't. Those types of personalities often forget that.
Eonfuzz wrote: The worst of the WH40K community is no where near as bad as online gaming. If the biggest problem we have is some dude moving a miniature with a glass of water we're totally OK
That's spot on. 'Cheating' is always going to happen, in every sort of competition. No matter if it's a professional athlete, or poker games with plastic coins. Online gaming isn't even that bad in comparison. 40k's tournament scene is strict in many ways, but that strictness prevents a lot of the bigger problems.
I've seen more scummy behavior in casual PUGs with nothing to gain.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilgore19d wrote: Isn't a problem. It's all the fanboys and try-hards. And it's not okay. Because more than likely, they're the same personalities of terrible people from online gaming. The internet provides anonymity, playing on the table top doesn't. Those types of personalities often forget that.
Funny thing about online gaming- I've never seen a game where you couldn't mute or ignore an idiot.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/23 12:53:39
Eonfuzz wrote: ...some dude moving a miniature with a glass of water...
Isn't a problem. It's all the fanboys and try-hards. And it's not okay. Because more than likely, they're the same personalities of terrible people from online gaming. The internet provides anonymity, playing on the table top doesn't. Those types of personalities often forget that.
So cheating isn't a problem because of "personalities"? that. Cheat and get banned. Zero sympathy for that cheating TFG.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
His website is called... wait for it... Glasshammer Gaming.
You could not make it up
In all seriousness, I am a bit disappointed to see this kind of stuff from an established player. My guess is that having set up a website to try and promote European 40k and monetise his undoubted skill and knowledge at the game, he felt under pressure to perform.
Sometimes when people feel like they can't be seen to be average, let alone fail, they make poor choices.
TO of Death Before Dishonour - A Warhammer 40k Tournament with a focus on great battles between well painted, thematic armies on tables with full terrain.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: Funny thing about online gaming- I've never seen a game where you couldn't mute or ignore an idiot.
Yeah, but I have seen WH40K games where someone has been punched in the face, someone had loaded dice, a model has been picked up and thrown at the wall (seen this multiple times), and people being banned from stores for false accusations.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Peregrine wrote: So cheating isn't a problem because of "personalities"? that. Cheat and get banned. Zero sympathy for that cheating TFG.
I never said cheating shouldn't be punished.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/23 13:00:05
Kilgore19d wrote: Yeah, but I have seen WH40K games where someone has been punched in the face, someone had loaded dice, a model has been picked up and thrown at the wall (seen this multiple times), and people being banned from stores for false accusations.
Where the hell are you gaming, Detroit?
But no, I've seen some bizarre things, too. And do you know what you do to those people? It's effective, too- so follow with me.
You call them a big f'in child. You laugh at them. You publicly humiliate them for being such a weakling that they had a hissy fit, cheated, or otherwise had to lie about someone over a game of plastic toy war dudes. You try to get proof if you can, and use social media (local gaming group pages, for example) to expose him. Ridicule is a powerful tool, and you might not change his ways- but depending on how well you execute this, you can certainly change his plans on where he's able to game.
Now if someone punches you in the face, defend yourself as needed and call the law. If you can make a lawsuit out of it, do it.
And I never said you did. I quoted your statement that the cheater in the OP is "not a problem", which you clearly said.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
I wasn't personally involved in those cases, it was just happening in my gaming community during 6th edition and I witnessed them. About the last two years of 'Ard Boyz. (I think that was 6th edition)
Some things can be purely accidental. I've watched some video BRs that I have been playing in (won't do a shameless plug) and have seen myself pick up a dice that did not hit and roll it with ones that did hit. And this is a single game, not tired or fatigued etc. However, i also notice not picking up hits etc, so usually mistakes do not favour one side or the other, but they do happen more than you think.
As for the Hammerhead, I don't care what he achieved by doing so....it's still cheating, it was deliberate. If he's willing to do that, and then say it was an accident, then you know he has done other dubious acts before.
-- $k 
-- 9k 
-- 6k 
-- 4k 
-- 
20000+ points
that. Cheat and get banned. Zero sympathy for that cheating 
