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 Peregrine wrote:

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w1zard wrote:
Even if he came out right now and admitted he cheated intentionally, you could STILL make the argument that a lifetime ban is too harsh a punishment when almost all IRL sports don't even lifetime ban on a first cheating offense.

And IMO this leniency is a mistake, driven entirely by profit needs (can't sell $$$$$$$$ gear with a banned player's number). A player who has demonstrated willingness to cheat is a who does not belong in our community. Their presence adds nothing of value, and everyone they play against would always have to be carefully watching them, knowing that they are willing to cheat if they think they can get away with it. Kick them out and be done with it.

Fair enough, at least your outlook is internally consistent. I disagree with that philosophy however. I am a firm believer in second chances. Third and fourth chances? Not so much. But definitely second chances.

Again, I want to re-iterate to you that if you refuse to associate with anyone who has cheated or been dishonest at some point in their life then you will be a very lonely person.

phillv85 wrote:
Personally I'd have mentioned it if there was contact, but with a plastic cup it may not make an audible noise and the movement may not have been noticed by either player.

It is clearly noticed. Look how quickly he moves the glass away once he bumps the model.

So to the people who are sure there should be a ban here for Harrison... do you not think it should be mirrored for Robinson? Considering Geoff made a BUNCH of mismeasures himself. He also said that you had to draw line of sight to a models base. He accidentally re-rolled extra dice where he shouldn't have multiple times, and pushed some models too far in movement. He also had a bunch of screws with cards, forgetting to draw cards on the previous game, messed up the re-drawing of cards, misused his stratagem to draw from the wrong place, etc.

 SHUPPET wrote:
So to the people who are sure there should be a ban here for Harrison... do you not think it should be mirrored for Robinson? Considering Geoff made a BUNCH of mismeasures himself. He also said that you had to draw line of sight to a models base. He accidentally re-rolled extra dice where he shouldn't have multiple times, and pushed some models too far in movement. He also had a bunch of screws with cards, forgetting to draw cards on the previous game, messed up the re-drawing of cards, misused his stratagem to draw from the wrong place, etc.

Can you provide the evidence for this? The answer depends heavily on the context. How badly was the measurement done? Did it appear to be deliberate, or was it simply inaccurate? Etc. Sloppy play should not be rewarded (TBH, if you're making that many mistakes you should probably be DQed) but a ban requires a credible belief that it crossed the line into deliberate cheating.

 Peregrine wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
Personally I'd have mentioned it if there was contact, but with a plastic cup it may not make an audible noise and the movement may not have been noticed by either player.

It is clearly noticed. Look how quickly he moves the glass away once he bumps the model.

Granted, it's noticed, but whether he realises he's moved the model is unknown. The table is crowded around there and there's no 'good' place for the water to go. I'm not saying that exonerates him, just I can see how it could be done by accident. It's the type of clumsy thing I do all the time.

phillv85 wrote:
The table is crowded around there and there's no 'good' place for the water to go.

Sure there is. Towards the bottom of the screen there's a wide open area where he hovers the glass initially and then places it after the bump. He took the glass out of a clear area, moved it over to the models and did the bump, and then put it back in the clear area. This is 100% deliberate.

Like I say, it looks bad, but there's no way I could say 100% it was deliberate. It probably is looking at it, but I couldn't be 100% either way.

 Peregrine wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
So to the people who are sure there should be a ban here for Harrison... do you not think it should be mirrored for Robinson? Considering Geoff made a BUNCH of mismeasures himself. He also said that you had to draw line of sight to a models base. He accidentally re-rolled extra dice where he shouldn't have multiple times, and pushed some models too far in movement. He also had a bunch of screws with cards, forgetting to draw cards on the previous game, messed up the re-drawing of cards, misused his stratagem to draw from the wrong place, etc.

Can you provide the evidence for this? The answer depends heavily on the context. How badly was the measurement done? Did it appear to be deliberate, or was it simply inaccurate? Etc. Sloppy play should not be rewarded (TBH, if you're making that many mistakes you should probably be DQed) but a ban requires a credible belief that it crossed the line into deliberate cheating.

Watch the whole stream and you can see most of it yourself.


So you think that the correct action for the T.O. to have taken here was to DQ both players, ban one of them, and potentially ban the other too if it was as ambiguous as Harrison's, which you feel was enough to rule as deliberate?




At what point do you start to think maybe you're being a bit heavy handed towards the players who have just sat through a very long day of 40k, at a woefully underprepared and disorganised event?

 Primark G wrote:
Can he still play in ETC? Can he still play in the Caldonenian? Can he still play in Warhammer GT?

Of course he can, because no TO has any authority over someone else's event. A lifetime ban from the London GET means ... one fewer event per year you can attend.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Can he still play in ETC? Can he still play in the Caldonenian? Can he still play in Warhammer GT?

Of course he can, because no TO has any authority over someone else's event. A lifetime ban from the London GET means ... one fewer event per year you can attend.

This is something that I think many are forgetting. The Tournaments as they are now are basically all single events. So if you get banned from one you can still turn up at quite a few others. Of course if you are banned from one chances are the behaviour that got you banned will be more closely watched at the others and punishments might well accordingly reflect your previous transgressions (as in this example).

So the life ban is from one event that won't automatically carry over to others. And its justifiable that proven good behaviour at many other events might see the London event change their stance on the punishment in the future. A lifetime ban is just a simple way of saying "you're out" without sticking a random time limit on it that binds the organisers hands.

40k is the worst bloody awful set of rules to play in torneys. Too many extra rules in the codex, crappy and overly powerful codexes. Torneys set up without all the codex's release.
You pay for it so don't moan about who and what turns up opposite you.

Geoff does the world-famous "remove the measuring tape before moving your models so no one can tell if you're exceeding your movement stat" trick almost consistently on the stream.

karandrasss wrote:
Geoff does the world-famous "remove the measuring tape before moving your models so no one can tell if you're exceeding your movement stat" trick almost consistently on the stream.

I noticed that, there's a bit where he's moving I think Guardsmen at the top right corner of the screen and it looks like he's gaining a bit of extra distance on some.

phillv85 wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
Geoff does the world-famous "remove the measuring tape before moving your models so no one can tell if you're exceeding your movement stat" trick almost consistently on the stream.

I noticed that, there's a bit where he's moving I think Guardsmen at the top right corner of the screen and it looks like he's gaining a bit of extra distance on some.

Harrison touched on this, and a laundry list of mistakes we can see for ourselves by watching the stream, that he said he had absolutely zero problem with because he understands it was late in the day, and that Geoff was a great, friendly opponent even if everyone was a little short by that point in the day (thanks to the rush for time due to their terrible organization, and the lack of food due to having one overpriced food cart with a single cashier to feed over 400 people in an all day event where they confiscate food at the door).



This is blatantly just the T.O.s trying to shift focus from the abysmal reception to their tourney, by drumming up a drama where they are the good guys stopping the nasty cheater.

It's so transparent, but some people just lap this stuff up.

How does banning a cheater hide their incompetence in running their event? There's a whole thread concerning the problems the TOs allowed to happen.

Why are people treating this like it was a criminal offense in the States? Beyond a reasonable doubt is the standard in that instance since we are taking away a person's liberty. In this instance we are talking about a single event dealing with toy soldiers. He is still free to play in other places and certainly has not lost any of his rights. At best, the standard for this instance is more probable than not. Meaning your pretty sure but not totally sure (you can have a reasonable doubt but your still think he did it). The player has a chance to explain his actions but the TO can judge give that as much weight as he sees fit. And his prior bad acts should be considered in whether to punish or not as well as what level of punishment is given.

w1zard wrote:

Either way, lifetime bans for minor transgressions (intentional or not) are entirely counterproductive to achieving deterrence to cheating. And I do think nudging a model slightly is a minor transgression, and I'm still unconvinced that Mr. Harrison did so intentionally.

Do you believe the verdict and punishment would have been the same if that had been his only questionable action or are you being disingenuous?

You know, usually only cheaters are this defensive about cheaters.

That's just flat out insulting to a person's intelligence and integrity. People can come to the defense of another person because they honestly feel that a wrong decision was made. What you are doing is nothing more than childish name calling.

I'm mostly blind.
I play 40k casually, but have attended the odd smaller tournament.
Been playing since 3rd.
I watched and rewatched the videos.
Have I made similar mistakes in casual play? For some things yes, but I have never once hit one of my models with a drink. I've knocked models while reaching for others, or bumped the table, and immediately checked with my opponent, apologized and we fixed things.

This player has apparently won major tournaments.
This was the final of a major tournament, you'd expect rookie, causal errors to be overcome by now.

My gut feeling is, also knowing a good many players that intentionally bend rules and cheat in tournaments, that this alex guy was intentionally doing a lot of what I saw on those videos. Maybe not all of it, but based on the video evidence I'd say he's definitely next to the Tony Slow Player When It Suits Me TFG as a shining example of what another TFG looks like.

 SHUPPET wrote:

phillv85 wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
Geoff does the world-famous "remove the measuring tape before moving your models so no one can tell if you're exceeding your movement stat" trick almost consistently on the stream.

I noticed that, there's a bit where he's moving I think Guardsmen at the top right corner of the screen and it looks like he's gaining a bit of extra distance on some.

Harrison touched on this, and a laundry list of mistakes we can see for ourselves by watching the stream, that he said he had absolutely zero problem with because he understands it was late in the day, and that Geoff was a great, friendly opponent even if everyone was a little short by that point in the day (thanks to the rush for time due to their terrible organization, and the lack of food due to having one overpriced food cart with a single cashier to feed over 400 people in an all day event where they confiscate food at the door).



This is blatantly just the T.O.s trying to shift focus from the abysmal reception to their tourney, by drumming up a drama where they are the good guys stopping the nasty cheater.

It's so transparent, but some people just lap this stuff up.

Who cares if the tournament wasn't a success for this discussion? That's not the point and people can choose to not go again next year if they'd like.

Nobody. Just. Bumps. A. Model. With. Their. Water.

I question anyone's integrity defending that happening. I wouldn't ever let food or drink near models like that in fear of them potentially getting damaged. Doesn't seem to care about any potential paint chipping huh?

Guy gets caught cheating and all anybody wants to talk about was the state of the tournament they didn't even attend.

Red herring.

Let's see if TOs and judges start entering into this new, brave world where we stop putting up with this gak.

I guess I'm a bit confused on how the "Water bump" became the defacto example of cheating. The claiming he rolled a 5 when it was really a 3, the measuring example, and the objective card stuff is what caught my eye. Those are three examples of plain as day cheating to me where while I think the water bump was likely cheating, was the easiest of the incidents to claim was innocent.

I don't think I've ever rolled two dice and mixed up what numbers they were. Roll 10-20 maybe, but two!? The measuring thing too was just blatant as hell trying to snow ball his opponent into accepting he was within range. And while I would have given the objective card incident a pass if he had just admitted that he made a mistake, doubling down by lying about the situation ends any kind of pass giving because even if the initial act was a mistake you cross into cheating by lying about it.

How the hell is the water bump the worst way he cheated?

I would be very curious to talk to the other 5 players he went against though to see what their impressions of playing him were.

Adeptus Doritos wrote:You know, usually only cheaters are this defensive about cheaters.

This draconic mentality is reminiscent of witch trials in the dark ages. We don't feel he's a cheater, so really we're just defensive about crucifying an innocent man for something he isn't guilty of. You've condemned him based on made up information at every turn, usually people this rabid to for faux-justice have serious social issues, but what would I look like saying such a thing? Leave your attacks and projection at home. People don't have to agree with county-style decision making on his guilt, it doesn't make them cheaters.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:How does banning a cheater hide their incompetence in running their event? There's a whole thread concerning the problems the TOs allowed to happen.

Look no further than this next quote for your answer:

Lemondish wrote:Guy gets caught cheating and all anybody wants to talk about was the state of the tournament they didn't even attend.

Red herring.

The tactic works. Like it or not, a lot of talk about this event is now about the cheating instead of the focus on their gaking. They had negative threads at the top of Reddit that got bumped down by the cheating threads and the outrage.

I'm not sure any of what we see on the video is 100% conclusive and the player in question has provided defence and explanation for each of the alleged infringements. What makes me lean towards concluding this is cheating is the number of infractions and the nature of some of them.

Yes, nudging the model with his water doesn't seem to actually provide any benefit but it just looks so unnatural and forced it's hard to dismiss. Additionally, I'm having a hard time believing he didn't realise he'd done it if it was accidental, in which case he should have mentioned it and fixed the error. The wound marker thing is something I've seen happen sometimes, but this time seems very odd because he picks up the wound marker after rolling a single dice. The fact he replaces it in a state that favours him, combined with the extra hit from the markerlight also favouring him is a little too convenient. Yes, I know the markerlight hit was actually irrelevant in the context of the game but we don't know if he realised that at the time or only after the fact.

It's also worth noting I've played a few, shall we say "dodgy" players, in my time and one thing I've noticed is their behaviour tends to be fairly consistent. They'll bend rules in their favour and blatantly cheat in pickup games, first rounds of tournaments or top tables, it doesn't matter. It seems to be a habit-forming thing. Even if there's only a minor gain to be had they'll still cheat if they think they can get away with it.

Whether a lifetime ban is an overreaction is another matter. I remember the uproar after the LVO incident though, and all the people claiming the TO didn't take a strong enough stance there. Now we have this happening and people saying it's too harsh so it seems TOs can't really win.

Slipspace wrote:
Whether a lifetime ban is an overreaction is another matter.

I remember the uproar after the LVO incident though, and all the people claiming the TO didn't take a strong enough stance there. Now we have this happening and people saying it's too harsh so it seems TOs can't really win.

It's not. They should have tarred and feathered him, after horsewhipping him, but before running him out of town on a rail...

This is so true. At least LGT won't have to worry about this particular guy in the future. LVO, that's another story. It would be interesting to see if he gets "disinvited" from next year's event, due to the controversy and bad publicity

Slipspace wrote:
I'm not sure any of what we see on the video is 100% conclusive and the player in question has provided defence and explanation for each of the alleged infringements. What makes me lean towards concluding this is cheating is the number of infractions and the nature of some of them.

Yes, nudging the model with his water doesn't seem to actually provide any benefit but it just looks so unnatural and forced it's hard to dismiss. Additionally, I'm having a hard time believing he didn't realise he'd done it if it was accidental, in which case he should have mentioned it and fixed the error. The wound marker thing is something I've seen happen sometimes, but this time seems very odd because he picks up the wound marker after rolling a single dice. The fact he replaces it in a state that favours him, combined with the extra hit from the markerlight also favouring him is a little too convenient. Yes, I know the markerlight hit was actually irrelevant in the context of the game but we don't know if he realised that at the time or only after the fact.

It's also worth noting I've played a few, shall we say "dodgy" players, in my time and one thing I've noticed is their behaviour tends to be fairly consistent. They'll bend rules in their favour and blatantly cheat in pickup games, first rounds of tournaments or top tables, it doesn't matter. It seems to be a habit-forming thing. Even if there's only a minor gain to be had they'll still cheat if they think they can get away with it.

Whether a lifetime ban is an overreaction is another matter. I remember the uproar after the LVO incident though, and all the people claiming the TO didn't take a strong enough stance there. Now we have this happening and people saying it's too harsh so it seems TOs can't really win.

Just want to say I find posts like this much more rational than some of the ones I've been seeing (not all), and it actually serves to sway my perspective a little. Just wanted to ask, what was the lvo incident? I was on break for a little while

 SHUPPET wrote:

Just want to say I find posts like this much more rational than some of the ones I've been seeing (not all), and it actually serves to sway my perspective a little. Just wanted to ask, what was the lvo incident? I was on break for a little while

Some context. Different guy. Not sure if there was something else that I forgot.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/7tnus8/controversy_at_lvo_rules_lawyering_thoughts/

w1zard wrote:

Just to be clear, I have exactly 0 horses in this race. I don't follow the tournament scene at all, I'm actually a casual 40k player.

I understand now.

You have no stake in this, a ruling where someone blatantly cheated several times. Caught on video no less. Enough of that turnament's judges agreed that he did it to ban him for life. He argued back in a way that made him seem even more guilty, and you're up to the plate to defend him to the hilt.

Even though you have no stake in this.

So what's the lie? You having no stake, or your defense of him? Because no one argues for nine pages over two days for nothing. Unless their a troll.

Also, if you're going to argue about punishment, I'd appreciate it if you didn't take your cues from the American Pro-Gun Lobby. It's stupid when they do it, and even more so here. It's the easiest way to shred any credibility you may have had. As you noticed happened here. Any claim that you can't do anything because the solution isn't 100% perfect is a fallacy.

Again, Dorito, Peregrine, I agree with you about this. The guy got what he deserved. And anyone else caught doing the same should get the same punishment. Even if that means 75% of the event players have to go. This, like any other activity is lessened by the presence of cheaters, and the people who defend them in the face of their blatant actions, not questionable ones, but blatant, are doing the hobby a disservice. Gaming has enough of a reputation as it is. It doesn't need more on top of this. And maybe if we start holding people to a higher standard, rather then lower, then it's reputation will improve.

I was thinking of this thread: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/753452.page


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Mmmpi- If you don't agree with a person that's fine. Anyone has the right (and some would say the duty) to stand up to something they find morally wrong. People are questioning whether the player was cheating (which they are unsure of) and/or the measure of the punishment. They, like you, are entitled to their opinion and stating said opinion. There is no need for cheap innuendo or outright hostility.

And for the record I am for the ban.