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It's not even that we will just lose half our HQ's (as mentioned above) we will eventually lose half our codex unless things get upgraded. The no model no rules will have a major effect on Orks over the next few years. You can already see GW slowly removing all metal and fail cast models.

If they removed metal models we would lose our Tank bustas and Kopptas.

Then fail cast goes. We lose our warboss, weirdboy, kommandos, big guns, buggies, trakks and more hqs...

Hell what would even be left in our codex? Because right now our big mek only has 1 model even on sale unless you buy a £40 mega nob set (then you get two useless models and have to buy another £40 set. So we could potentially end up with only 1 hq left in the next few years unless they are updated!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:

fe40k wrote:

SM players of a certain color marine: Man, why hasn’t my army come out yet? It’s not like I could use any of the 9 other colors of marine rules to represent my army. Heck, I can’t even use any of the other imperial armies rules and fluff them into my army either!
Xenos players: Man, why hasn’t my army come out yet? Look at these ZERO other books I can use to represent my armies rules, or draw my units from.

Seriously; no offense, everyone wants their army to come out - but just tell your friend to use a different chapters book, and paint his Marines gray.

Space Wolves are winter melee/close range shooting units - just use feting blood angels rules for the core, man. Frothy, rage-overtaken melee centered army? Basically what your friend is looking for.

People have zero creativity or adaption.

Wow, thanks! That’s super helpful! Now I realise how I can just counts-as my Thunderwolf Cavalry! And my Ravenwing Black Knights! And my Sanguinary Guard! And my Crusader Squads!

If you’re going to be snarky at least be right.

That works lot better than using say orks with blood angel rules. Point being wolf player# have that option to get codex power while waiting for wolf codex and indeed using different marine codexes with same marine models is this age normal

On one hand, yes. There is nothing to stop wolf players splitting up their force and dedicating their marine to one chapter (be it ultra or blood) and then have their wolves be a different detachment and still have space wolves keywords.
One the other, we cannot expect players to spend £30 on a rule book they won't even use in the future. That's just a scummy gw move.

However, as i keep saying with my sign that says "the end is neigh". Space wolves players don't have to worry about half their army disappearing. Hell, as i keep saying, two of the primary HQ for 90% of ork armies (big mek with kff and mek on bike with kff) don't have models! There is a very likely chance (given the evidence) our only defence is about to vanish forever unless we fork out £40 or spend big bucks on a Morkanaut. Gw could outright remove one of the most iconic units of our codex unless it gets a model! This is why i don't give a squig about prime orks or beast ghaz... because right now our units that we already own are in danger of being useless and left behind in an index that will one day be out dated.

You know you can still use the index for non-codex models right?

phillv85 wrote:
You know you can still use the index for non-codex models right?

You know that the index point costs and weapon options are wildly outdated compared to their codex counterparts right?

What they mean is: Space Wolf Primaris and a new pure Primaris Chapter that fights Orks.

 Bloviator wrote:
What they mean is: Space Wolf Primaris and a new pure Primaris Chapter that fights Orks.

There is at least one SW Primaris Chapter in the Dark Imperium Novel - Wolfspear

 lolman1c wrote:

However, as i keep saying with my sign that says "the end is neigh". Space wolves players don't have to worry about half their army disappearing. Hell, as i keep saying, two of the primary HQ for 90% of ork armies (big mek with kff and mek on bike with kff) don't have models! There is a very likely chance (given the evidence) our only defence is about to vanish forever unless we fork out £40 or spend big bucks on a Morkanaut. Gw could outright remove one of the most iconic units of our codex unless it gets a model! This is why i don't give a squig about prime orks or beast ghaz... because right now our units that we already own are in danger of being useless and left behind in an index that will one day be out dated.

Orks need models for KFF Big Mek, Big Mek on Bike, Painboy on Bike, Warboss on Bike, and Mega Armored Warboss. I highly doubt they are going to release 5 HQ kits in one go so it will be interesting to see how they handle their whole "no model, no codex entry" trend. Either they are going to have to break that position or the internet is going to WAAAGH!!!

SW gets Russ to stand against Magnus again. The empire then have 2 primarchs against 2 traitor primarchs. Then they will save further primarchs for future editions, for suspense.

SW will get wolfy primaris units that are unique to the SW. Especially a SW form of reivers (better CC options, but no grav chute), intercessors (better at CC) and hellblasters (with helfrost weapon option). They wont get inceptors or aggressors.

And/or

SW primaris characters (wolf lord, rune priest and wolf priest).

For the record, I'm pretty sure they said Gang War 2 was going to be 'absolutely packed', too.

 lolman1c wrote:
It's not even that we will just lose half our HQ's (as mentioned above) we will eventually lose half our codex unless things get upgraded. The no model no rules will have a major effect on Orks over the next few years. You can already see GW slowly removing all metal and fail cast models.

If they removed metal models we would lose our Tank bustas and Kopptas.

Then fail cast goes. We lose our warboss, weirdboy, kommandos, big guns, buggies, trakks and more hqs...

Hell what would even be left in our codex? Because right now our big mek only has 1 model even on sale unless you buy a £40 mega nob set (then you get two useless models and have to buy another £40 set. So we could potentially end up with only 1 hq left in the next few years unless they are updated!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:

fe40k wrote:

SM players of a certain color marine: Man, why hasn’t my army come out yet? It’s not like I could use any of the 9 other colors of marine rules to represent my army. Heck, I can’t even use any of the other imperial armies rules and fluff them into my army either!
Xenos players: Man, why hasn’t my army come out yet? Look at these ZERO other books I can use to represent my armies rules, or draw my units from.

Seriously; no offense, everyone wants their army to come out - but just tell your friend to use a different chapters book, and paint his Marines gray.

Space Wolves are winter melee/close range shooting units - just use feting blood angels rules for the core, man. Frothy, rage-overtaken melee centered army? Basically what your friend is looking for.

People have zero creativity or adaption.

Wow, thanks! That’s super helpful! Now I realise how I can just counts-as my Thunderwolf Cavalry! And my Ravenwing Black Knights! And my Sanguinary Guard! And my Crusader Squads!

If you’re going to be snarky at least be right.

That works lot better than using say orks with blood angel rules. Point being wolf player# have that option to get codex power while waiting for wolf codex and indeed using different marine codexes with same marine models is this age normal

On one hand, yes. There is nothing to stop wolf players splitting up their force and dedicating their marine to one chapter (be it ultra or blood) and then have their wolves be a different detachment and still have space wolves keywords.
One the other, we cannot expect players to spend £30 on a rule book they won't even use in the future. That's just a scummy gw move.

However, as i keep saying with my sign that says "the end is neigh". Space wolves players don't have to worry about half their army disappearing. Hell, as i keep saying, two of the primary HQ for 90% of ork armies (big mek with kff and mek on bike with kff) don't have models! There is a very likely chance (given the evidence) our only defence is about to vanish forever unless we fork out £40 or spend big bucks on a Morkanaut. Gw could outright remove one of the most iconic units of our codex unless it gets a model! This is why i don't give a squig about prime orks or beast ghaz... because right now our units that we already own are in danger of being useless and left behind in an index that will one day be out dated.

maybe just maybe stop fretting? so far the things that are being removed are things like "X on a bike" I can't think of any say... troop options that are codex only.

as for space wolves, they are pretty differant from the other marine chapters. easily the most divergent. so no you can't really just run them as vanilla marines. not without losing a lot of what makes space wolves space wolves. I'm curious how primaris HQs will be handled, partiuclarly chapolains/apocatharies

 Vankraken wrote:
Orks need models for KFF Big Mek, Big Mek on Bike, Painboy on Bike, Warboss on Bike, and Mega Armored Warboss. I highly doubt they are going to release 5 HQ kits in one go so it will be interesting to see how they handle their whole "no model, no codex entry" trend. Either they are going to have to break that position or the internet is going to WAAAGH!!!

Then the internet will be sad.
The odds of there being a bike character are low - the odds of a multi kit which covers a warboss, big mek, painboy - and weird boy (because... why not) are almost none.
So yeah, no models, no codex entry.

 Vankraken wrote:

Orks need models for KFF Big Mek, Big Mek on Bike, Painboy on Bike, Warboss on Bike, and Mega Armored Warboss. I highly doubt they are going to release 5 HQ kits in one go so it will be interesting to see how they handle their whole "no model, no codex entry" trend. Either they are going to have to break that position or the internet is going to WAAAGH!!!

This probably won't happen, but the could make one big HQ multi-part kit. Include the following:
4x nob-sized torsos, 4x nob walking legs, 1x nob biker legs
1x warboss torso, 1x warboss walking legs, 1x warboss biker legs
1x large warbike

Then have the bits to make the following:
Big Mek (with optional KFF)
Painboy
Weirdboy
Nob with Waaagh Banner
Warboss

That way we could make one of each of manyof our HQ and Elite characters, and have the option of putting them on bikes. They could even give us options that weren't in the Index, like a Weird Boy or Banner Nob on a bike. Heck, throw in a few more bits and we could have all sorts of things like giving HQs and Elite characters with jump packs, or things that have never existed before.

They could charge a lot of money for such a kit and the would still be a good value.

What’s the deal with space wolves being “different”?

I mean - as a Xenos player, I don’t know, so I’m asking; what makes the wolves so unique amongst SM chapters that you can’t make do just using the rules for another? What is lost in that transition?

fe40k wrote:


Tell me what those units bring to the table that's so unique they can't be represented by other model's rules; I'm curious.

Yeah in hindsight that came out way rougher than intended. Moving on...

The point stands though. Thunderwolf Cavalry with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields - a common loadout since it’s been powerful for a while - bring a fast, tough delivery system for the TH/SS plus the extra attacks from the wolf.

Ravenwing Black Knights bring veteran bike models with a hammer and plasma weapon.

Sanguinary Guard bring Jump Pack Veterans with a 2+(/5++?), unique pistols and the ability to have a flying banner.

Crusader squads bring the ability to give Marine troops a mixed ranged/close combat loadout and the combination of 3+ and 4+ armoured models in one unit.

Those were the low-hanging fruit but there are plenty of others like Baal Predators and Cenobyte Servitors.

maybe just maybe stop fretting? so far the things that are being removed are things like "X on a bike" I can't think of any say... troop options that are codex only.

X on bike is all our hqs for our evil sunz armies! It would be like white scars but worse because there would be 0 hq options.

fe40k wrote:
What’s the deal with space wolves being “different”?

I mean - as a Xenos player, I don’t know, so I’m asking; what makes the wolves so unique amongst SM chapters that you can’t make do just using the rules for another? What is lost in that transition?

The overwhelming majority of Chapters follow a structure outlined in the Codex Astartes. It basically says they’ll have ten companies of a hundred active Marines each. Five of those will be the main fighting companies, one will be veterans, one will be junior/scouts, and the remaining three will be reserve/specialist companies.The fighting companies are made up of 10 units of 10 men. The 10 units are made up of a mix of Tactical, Devastator and Assault Squads.

Some Chapters don’t follow this structure. The two that famously deviate the most are Space Wolves and Black Templars (there are others, but those two are the famous ones that really diverge). First up, they don’t use Tactical, Assault and Devastator Squads, so on a unit level the structure breaks down for them. They don’t use a Scout Company or a Veteran Company, so on a company level it breaks down. They don’t have ten companies, so on a Chapter level it breaks down. Furthermore, they have unique units like Thunderwolf Cavalry that other Chapters don’t have an equivalent for.

fe40k wrote:
What’s the deal with space wolves being “different”?

I mean - as a Xenos player, I don’t know, so I’m asking; what makes the wolves so unique amongst SM chapters that you can’t make do just using the rules for another? What is lost in that transition?

The Wolves don't have the traditional unit roles of Vanilla Marines. Their entry level units are Bloodclaws (on foot), Skyclaws (Jump Packs), and Swiftclaws (Bikes) which are generally close combat focused infantry in power armor who typically lack the expert melee and shooting skill of the more experienced/disciplined space marines. Their main infantry are grey hunters which are similar to tactical marines except they can take two specialist weapons but no heavy weapons plus they can also take chainswords along with their bolt gun and pistol. Scouts and Long Fangs (Devastators) are basically veterans where as in vanilla marines they are typically the lesser experienced marines. In gameplay terms scouts have a veteran marine stat line while for long fangs they basically at like vanilla devs but can't take as many "bodies" to soak wounds but had a split fire rule back in earlier editions. The elite wolves are called Wolf Guard and are generally a lot more customizable than their vanilla equivalent but lacked the special issue ammo of Sternguard, the characters found in command squads, or the charge benefits that vanguard vets got. Wolves also don't have many of the HQs that vanilla marines get so instead of having a chaplain or apothecary, the wolves have a wolf priest which is a bit of both. The wolves don't have a "chapter master" but had basically two types of captains with the Wolf Lord being the expensive one while the Wolf Guard Battle Leader being the mini captain.

In general the Wolves lack a lot of the variants in vehicles that vanilla marines have as well as lacking any access to grav weapons. The wolves do have additional variants of melee weapons with the wolf claw typically being a better version of the lightning claw while also having frost axe/swords that where two handed and slighting more powerful versions of power axes/swords. On top of that they have completely new units such as Thunder Cav, Wulfen, Fenresian wolves, Santa's sled (Logan Grimnar's chariot thing), and the Stormwolf/Stormfang. (Notice the massive amount of wolf and wolf related things in their naming conventions).

 lolman1c wrote:

On one hand, yes. There is nothing to stop wolf players splitting up their force and dedicating their marine to one chapter (be it ultra or blood) and then have their wolves be a different detachment and still have space wolves keywords.
One the other, we cannot expect players to spend £30 on a rule book they won't even use in the future. That's just a scummy gw move.

Actually they can use those codexes later. Just as there's people codex hopping between games now they can do that as well.

Switching codex on what is most beneficitial for next army list is what GW designed marines for for few editions now.

My expectation:

Orks and Space Wolves get their Codexes over the next couple of months. They have a bunch of stratagems, points changes, weapon updates, warlord traits, relics, etc. Orks get no new models. Space Wolves get a Primaris Lieutenant kit.

Done. No Russ. No Primeork. Nada. It'll be just like the Blood Angels/Dark Angels release for the Space Wolves, and just like the myriad xenos for the Orks.

Then Genestealer Cult will get about 5-6 new kits with their new Codex and that'll be it, GW will have fulfilled their promise in updating all of the 7th edition Codexes into 8th, and then some.

Then we'll roll right into a Slaanesh release, mixed in with a few things for Age of Sigmar, and that'll take us all the way to the end of the year and Ork and Space Wolf players will be sitting there like "Wait... seriously? We waited all this time... for this?"

And then 2019 we'll get Sisters of Battle.

No I think there will be a new starter box.

Hasn't AoS gotten a new starter box every year?

Then again I don't know when it came out but "Soul wars" is the 3rd starter set for AoS.

So it might not be out of the question for there to be a SW VS Ork box. But it's also pretty close to forge bane, but that's a whole other mess.

My expectations are a new wave of primaris, then Ghazgul and maybe russ. And there's no way there'll be a Slaanesh release in the fall lol. Mainly because Guilliman fighting off 3 Daemon Primarchs is laughable and I love my Ultramarines

I'm going to indulge in some mostly baseless speculation:

We're not going to get an Orks vs Spacewolves boxed set. We're going to get an Orks vs GSC "Octarius" boxed set that's more along the lines of Forgbane and Renegade.

They mentioned that Space Wolves and Orks are next, but GSC are after that. They could include a GSC upgrade sprue for every Ork kit. That way it could be assembled as a two-player game, but if a person is really looking to collect one army or the other they won't have to bother with splitting the box. It would also give them a whole nother faction (Ork GSC) in one fell swoop.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
You know you can still use the index for non-codex models right?

You know that the index point costs and weapon options are wildly outdated compared to their codex counterparts right?

Yes, but they're still there. Other factions have to make do. I was making the point that you're not 'losing' them. Nothing is even confirmed yet and people are complaining about losing units.

phillv85 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
You know you can still use the index for non-codex models right?

You know that the index point costs and weapon options are wildly outdated compared to their codex counterparts right?

Yes, but they're still there. Other factions have to make do. I was making the point that you're not 'losing' them. Nothing is even confirmed yet and people are complaining about losing units.

If something is so outdated that it's not playable then it might as well be lost. People are voicing their worries about losing models, they aren't complaining about losing them because that is impossible until the codex is released and entries are cut.

As lolman said above, this might not mean much for you Imperial players but if we don't get representation for our HQs in bikes it throws out a very popular army faction in Evil Sunz.

Also if we get no new models after such a long wait it'll only confirm what GWs thoughts are regarding Orks and it'll push many Ork players away. If 'new' GW treats Orks exactly the same as old GW nothing has changed as far as I'm concerned. Which will leave a nasty taste in the mouth given all those promises.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I'm going to indulge in some mostly baseless speculation:

We're not going to get an Orks vs Spacewolves boxed set. We're going to get an Orks vs GSC "Octarius" boxed set that's more along the lines of Forgbane and Renegade.

They mentioned that Space Wolves and Orks are next, but GSC are after that. They could include a GSC upgrade sprue for every Ork kit. That way it could be assembled as a two-player game, but if a person is really looking to collect one army or the other they won't have to bother with splitting the box. It would also give them a whole nother faction (Ork GSC) in one fell swoop.

A detailed analysis of the Octarius campaign would be amazing! Tyranids vs Orks! A real xenos fight! Two horde armies fighting untilmone of them comes out tpp with each faction designed to adapt! I was actually disappointed with the octaris campaign ending... Orks are meant to adapt and grow just as much as tyranids but they often made orks look like mindless idiots... when really, as the war would go on, Orks would increase in intelligence and strategy as well as numbers as their genetics kick in to fight against a real enemy for once. So hope to see something like this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

phillv85 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
You know you can still use the index for non-codex models right?

You know that the index point costs and weapon options are wildly outdated compared to their codex counterparts right?

Yes, but they're still there. Other factions have to make do. I was making the point that you're not 'losing' them. Nothing is even confirmed yet and people are complaining about losing units.

If something is so outdated that it's not playable then it might as well be lost. People are voicing their worries about losing models, they aren't complaining about losing them because that is impossible until the codex is released and entries are cut.

As lolman said above, this might not mean much for you Imperial players but if we don't get representation for our HQs in bikes it throws out a very popular army faction in Evil Sunz.

Also if we get no new models after such a long wait it'll only confirm what GWs thoughts are regarding Orks and it'll push many Ork players away. If 'new' GW treats Orks exactly the same as old GW nothing has changed as far as I'm concerned. Which will leave a nasty taste in the mouth given all those promises.

In my mind, if we also lose our mega armour warboss we also lose a lot of Bad Moonz armies. I'm not saying we will... i'm saying that it's very likely. The odds of GW replacing every HQ is very unlikely but the odds of GW removing them in high. You guys do maths all the time... and the maths say we should prepare for the worst and if we do get anything that would just make us more happy. Let me say it this way, as English suggested, if the codex doesn't have these units then they're ticking time bombs. At any moment the Index could become widely outdated to the point we cannot even use it. Hell, for all we know in 2 years GW could bring out 9th edition and boom, index gone forever along with the majority of our armies. Plus, you wait all this time and find out just because you picked units that gw previously encouraged you to pick, suddenly you don't get an update while every other ork player does.

And shut up with the whole "other armies have to deal with this". This in no way excuses GW if they do this! If anything it would proves there is a huge flaw right now in GW that needs to be fixed! They would rather delte units that people used for years just so a 3rd party doesn't make a few extra £££ than make anything other than primaris marines.

That sounds a lot like complaining to me.

phillv85 wrote:
That sounds a lot like complaining to me.

And? I want to complain in hopes that what is say is wrong. You got a problem with that?

Complaining about GW removing white scar units from a codex is also a valid complaint. I personally have s friend who spent weeks making custom white scar units that are jo longer in the codex. He knows that soon these units will disappear for good. Is that wrong to complain about that?

 lolman1c wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
That sounds a lot like complaining to me.

And? I want to complain in hopes that what is say is wrong. You got a problem with that?

you're fixating so hard on the negitives you'r going to ensure dissappointment IMHO.

BrianDavion wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
That sounds a lot like complaining to me.

And? I want to complain in hopes that what is say is wrong. You got a problem with that?

you're fixating so hard on the negitives you'r going to ensure dissappointment IMHO.

How? If I fix on negatives and I actually don't lose my units then I and many ork players will be happy.

As you can tell from my profile picture I am an Evil Sunz player. The idea my army could be hit hard just because GW decided to make a new knight rather than an essential Ork HQ does make me a worried. And there is plenty of evidence to suggest this might happen. Hell, even if we did get a plastic version of every model in our entire codex, that still doesn't excuse the fact other armies lost units because GW didn't want to make new models for them.

phillv85 wrote:
That sounds a lot like complaining to me.

You sound a lot like a troll to me. Care to leave the discussion to people who actually want to discuss the topic?

 lolman1c wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
That sounds a lot like complaining to me.

And? I want to complain in hopes that what is say is wrong. You got a problem with that?

Complaining about GW removing white scar units from a codex is also a valid complaint. I personally have s friend who spent weeks making custom white scar units that are jo longer in the codex. He knows that soon these units will disappear for good. Is that wrong to complain about that?

If I had a problem with complaining I wouldn't be on this forum. If you read who I quoted, they said nobody was complaining....

phillv85 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
That sounds a lot like complaining to me.

And? I want to complain in hopes that what is say is wrong. You got a problem with that?

Complaining about GW removing white scar units from a codex is also a valid complaint. I personally have s friend who spent weeks making custom white scar units that are jo longer in the codex. He knows that soon these units will disappear for good. Is that wrong to complain about that?

If I had a problem with complaining I wouldn't be on this forum. If you read who I quoted, they said nobody was complaining....

No, I said nobody was complaining about losing models, as you incorrectly stated.