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 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

a knight that looses half its wounds is effectively dead at that point, gimped movement, gimped attacks, and gimped BS. You just payed 400+ points of guard shooting with marine weapons. RIP.

With an average of 11.65 and a standard deviation of 8.74 it's more likely that you won't degrade a dominus with one shot than that you will. (55% chance of doing less than 12 wounds)

Well lets just assume statistical average for everything

Average shots for a Shadow sword: 6
Average hits: 3
Average wounds: 83% chance + rerolls since its going to be 2s on 2s. So really you can assume average is going to be all hits
3 saves on a 5++ average is 1 wound is going to be saved
And assuming average wounds, its going to be 14 wounds.

Thats if we assume EVERYTHING is average. That also not taking into account regimental doctrines which can get really memey if you take tempests scions.

Guess what? That knight is in all likelyhood going to rock 3++ vs you. Factor that.

Also you assume shadowsword is everywhere and that shadowsword can do everything. Wrong and wrong.


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 Backspacehacker wrote:

And how many of your very limited Command points did that take?

0 for 4++, was it 1 or 2 out of 11 for 3++


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 Backspacehacker wrote:

The volcano lance just has me worried because its a D6 weapon, thats a lot of points to just roll 1.

That's why you start shooting phase with it. Reroll strategem for that if needed

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Neither, they are going to be over costed. Shadow sword, 200 points less, just as survivable, and can one shot a knight with ease.

As usual your grasp of how effective units are is lacking.

A shadow sword has a 10% chance of doing 24 wounds (regular knight) and 5.2% chance of doing 28 (dominus).

Hardly "with ease".

a knight that looses half its wounds is effectively dead at that point, gimped movement, gimped attacks, and gimped BS. You just payed 400+ points of guard shooting with marine weapons. RIP.

Not to mention, guess who is gonna power slide onto the board turn one to avoid getting alpha struck. Starts with shadow, ends with sword.

That depends on the knight house used, one of them doubles the effective health total needed to cripple it. Meaning even if you half their health turn one, they are at full effectiveness still, plus 1CP allows them to fight at full effectiveness for a turn even at 1HP. Just like any other army, they have dogmas/chapters/whatever and stratagems that allow them to be more effective. Based on the reveals I have seen of the IK codex, a competitive list can easily be made, and used to devastating effect.


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 generalchaos34 wrote:
So I keep hearing that they are not selling the new dominus knights as a combo kit but instead as separate kits, which boggles my mind for something as simple as a weapon swap.

Now I have to make decision. Which Knight do I buy? I currently have 3 knights, one is set as a Paladin/Errant (the original knight kit) and the other 2 can switch around between the different types (yay magnets!) and 2 Armiger Warglaives.

Knight Valiant- He seems to be my go to for the moment, he has a nice hefty flamer that does a great deal of damage and looks like it can easily wreck light vehicles as well as horde infantry, which every knight army has issues with clearing out, plus those nasty -3 to hit eldar shenanigans. Plus the Thundercoil Harpoon will pretty much kill anything you shoot at with a min 11 damage, plus you're also in range of those 4 melta guns you are being forced to buy.

Knight Castellan- The long ranged option, The volcano lance is nice and basically makes him a more durable shadowsword, the plasma decimator is much more "meh" to me. Its a lot of guns but you are missing out on your quad melta and the shots are fairly limited.

As for the 3 hard points I think 2 siegebreaker cannons and a missile are the way to go, since those cannons seem to be a good all rounder. Character sniping sounds fun but you only have so many command points to play with.

I think the dominus class is going to be a massive bullet sponge no matter what, and as a Terryn player im going to want to be charging all day. Valiant really seems like the best option so far.

What do you guys think?

Knight Valiant is the only one I have seen in batreps right now, and if he is made the warlord with the relic conflagration cannon then he is a monster. Autohits with rerolls to wounds means he effectively gets most of the wounds in, and at 2 damage a pop, can clear even characters out. With their super cool stratagem that allows them to not only intercept a charge, but do overwatch instead of the chosen charged unit, he can force an important character to take the full brunt of his superflamer. This isnt including the harpoon, not my favorite, but if it hits it HITS, and both twin meltas, plus the siegebreaker cannon, and a shielfbreaker missile, he has a lot of options to drop characters.
Neither are particularly good in melee, but the Valiant warlord with the iron bulwark WT can survive long enough to tiptoe out of combat and retaliate hard. I don't find the Castellan's plasma weapon that impressive, and since most of what makes these new knights good are their two main weapons, if one isn't that good, unless you take the relic, then why use them?
Numbers wise, I would choose the relic superflamer over the relic superplasma, but that is my personal preference, they will eventually get charged, and I just prefer the ability to guarantee a lot of wounds to maybe one or two.

If you use relic flamer why not relic plasma?

My problem with valiant(apart from goofy look of harpoon) is short range(not really turn 1 shooting and turn 2 against main target isn't quaranteed) and 1 shot. With misses and inv saves annoyingly swingy. Volcano cannon has less total whiffs. Harpoon has often more than 50 chance of total whiff and average damage is still about same. But castellan has long range and quaranteed turn 1 shot

tneva82 wrote:
If you use relic flamer why not relic plasma?

My problem with valiant(apart from goofy look of harpoon) is short range(not really turn 1 shooting and turn 2 against main target isn't quaranteed) and 1 shot. With misses and inv saves annoyingly swingy. Volcano cannon has less total whiffs. Harpoon has often more than 50 chance of total whiff and average damage is still about same. But castellan has long range and quaranteed turn 1 shot

The reason the Valiant, in my mind, is better, is the Conflagration Cannon is good on its own, without the relic, the relic just makes it stupid good. The Castellan REQUIRES the relic to make its plasma even usable, without it, its a standard autocannon, why supercharge and potentially wound yourself when knights struggle to get wounds back, and if you are taking that relic, you are Mechanicus and not Imperialis. I have not seen any Mechanicus houses that compete with House Hawkshroud and their ability to double the wounds characteristic to determine what effectiveness your knight is on the damage tables. They have to be at 6 wounds to be a mid-effectiveness with that house, 6.

So to sum it up, if you want that plasma to be useful, you have to be Mechanicus, and choose from their meh houses, making the Castellan also meh. The Valiants superflamer works well on its own, but taking Imperialis, you can take Hawkshroud and the superflamer relic, it just makes sense to me, but this is all my opinion based on information I gleaned from videos on the early release of the codex. Not to mention I would take a Crusader and Errant, give them both relics, and make them warlords for basically all my CP, so I would have the ranged support I need with the Crusader and Helverins, and the melee with the Errant and the Valiant to back him up.

Yes plasma might not be that awesome without relic(that you can take) but then you get vastly superior tank buster. Average damage of volcano is about same as harpoon but thats after factoring to hit and to wound. Which harpoon still has to do. And it's more steady against inv. Plus quaranteed turn 1 shooting. Harpoon might not shoot good target before turn 3!

Is there an easy way to get reroll ones to hit? That's kinda important for the plasma.

tneva82 wrote:
Yes plasma might not be that awesome without relic(that you can take) but then you get vastly superior tank buster. Average damage of volcano is about same as harpoon but thats after factoring to hit and to wound. Which harpoon still has to do. And it's more steady against inv. Plus quaranteed turn 1 shooting. Harpoon might not shoot good target before turn 3!

You are assuming that the Castellan and Valiant are the only shooting games in town, tank busting isn't that important, and all knight weapons can hurt pretty much everything. Even the Conflagration Cannon can hurt a vehicle through sheer number of wounds it can put out, same with Endless Volley I think its called, the relic that takes the place of the 12 shot gatling cannon on the Warden or Crusader that gets bumped up to 14 shots and can get additional hits on rolls of 6. Also, the Crusader gets an anti-tank weapon as well, its not as balls to the walls as the volcano gun, but its still anti-tank at range. Not to mention the volcano gun only seems to shine against other titanic units, so niche use, where the harpoon is good against monstrous units and vehicles, which you will see far more of, and the addition of mortal wounds, damage that cannot be saved against unless the enemy has FNP.

Sorry, but there is an overwhelming amount of bonuses to the Valiant over the Castellan, and like I said, which you seem to not be getting, is you can only take the plasma relic if you choose Mechanicus houses, if you take an Imperialis house you CANNOT take the plasma relic. So if you run a Castellan and use the Hawkshroud house, you get the bog standard crap plasma, and your only saving grace is that volcano gun. On the flip side, if I decided to take a Mechanicus house, I guess for healing, no other reason to, and I run a Valiant, I cannot take the superflamer relic, but the Conflagration Cannon is still 100% viable and good, and the harpoon is functional. Both weapons of the Valiant, without a relic, are either really good, or functional, the Castellan has one good gun, and one meh gun that requires the upgrade.


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 Crimson wrote:
Is there an easy way to get reroll ones to hit? That's kinda important for the plasma.

From what I have seen, I think there is a stratagem or a B level warlord trait, otherwise, nothing you would want to take over something else, or waste the CP on. The plasma gun is just bad compared to any other knight weapon, it is outdone by the gatling cannon and the rapid-fire battle cannon.

House Raven Castellan with cawls wrath will be a staple. Reroll 1s on everything, has the crazy good ignore damage stratagem, 5++ vs mortals plus you get a good plasma decimator and a good volcano cannon. Out shoots a shadowsword, has a 3++ and is only 50 points more.

That variant will be the 'typical one' imo and beats anything a valiant can do.

Jpr wrote:
House Raven Castellan with cawls wrath will be a staple. Reroll 1s on everything, has the crazy good ignore damage stratagem, 5++ vs mortals plus you get a good plasma decimator and a good volcano cannon. Out shoots a shadowsword, has a 3++ and is only 50 points more.

That variant will be the 'typical one' imo and beats anything a valiant can do.

I mean if that is what you believe, I just haven't seen a single Castellan yet in a batrep so I have no additional information other than what I can read, which is you are spending a lot on a big knight that once charged, will barely be able to defend itself, and have a very weak overwatch. Like I said before, neither variants are good in melee, but the overwatch is night and day between the two, one guaranteeing wounds, the other on good rolls only.
Make no mistake, I want to see a Castellan in a batrep, but as it stands, I have seen a Valiant go toe to toe with a Primarch and win, again, all luck of rolls, but that's how 40k is played, RNG.
With the knowledge of the Armiger Helverins being super cheap compared to what they used to be, I can't see forcing your big knight into a corner as your main dakka when a Crusader and a couple Helverins can do the job just fine, if not better.

Surely valiant - dub an enemy target Moby dick and go harpoonin'

With regards to the shadowsword discussion, it gets +1 to hit vs TITANIC. So 4 hits, not 3

CelticKodiak wrote:
I mean if that is what you believe, I just haven't seen a single Castellan yet in a batrep so I have no additional information other than what I can read, which is you are spending a lot on a big knight that once charged, will barely be able to defend itself, and have a very weak overwatch. Like I said before, neither variants are good in melee, but the overwatch is night and day between the two, one guaranteeing wounds, the other on good rolls only.
Make no mistake, I want to see a Castellan in a batrep, but as it stands, I have seen a Valiant go toe to toe with a Primarch and win, again, all luck of rolls, but that's how 40k is played, RNG.
With the knowledge of the Armiger Helverins being super cheap compared to what they used to be, I can't see forcing your big knight into a corner as your main dakka when a Crusader and a couple Helverins can do the job just fine, if not better.

Here's the reality of the situation; both the Valiant and the Castellan are meta busters in their own way. The Valiant plus the House-specific Overwatch stratagem (which, mind you, is on a House that the Valiant doesn't get the most out of seeing as the flamer gun isn't worried about a degrading profile anyway) means you can force Custodes Jetbike Captains into some horrible situations, and generally screw over character-led assaults in that vein. Also a good counter to Alaitoc/Raven Guard shenanigans even by virtue of messing up where Alaitoc flyers can move. Meanwhile, the Castellan sitting in the backfield has all the same tools as a Shadowsword, just better because you can - and will - give it a 4++ as a free Warlord Trait, increasing that to a 3++ if needed, and Shadowswords are currently the most popular Lord of War choice in the game (a big upcoming tournament in Australia has Shadowswords in such ridiculous numbers that you'd think you're reading cloned lists) for a reason. Plus, the Questoris Mechanicus household that gives the Castellan that re-roll 1s for everything in a Shooting phase (which is a stupidly good buff), while not directly buffing the Castellan in particular unless it needs to scoot away from something, is a house that benefits the midfield Knights (i.e. Wardens, Valiants) better than it's analogue in House Terryn in a lot of ways. This isn't to say "Questor Mechanicus households are superior" but, again, under-mining what makes them good without understanding all the tools available in the context of a competitive game isn't the best approach to list-building advice.

They have completely different roles. If you're facing super heavies of any type - which the Imperial Knight codex will make even more popular - and particularly Shadowswords - which the Imperial Knight codex will make even more popular - then the Castellan is your best bet. If you're going up against another Knight army, for example, the Castellan doesn't have to worry about closing with models that will eviscerate it in combat, whereas the Valiant obviously does - the relic Conflagration Cannon still won't save you against a Gallant - or, heck, even Warden/Paladin/etc - charge. In some match-ups, this is critical, especially on a Knight that needs to close to 18" to bring most of its firepower to bear, and with a 12" Harpoon that is statistically worse than the relic plasma weapon of the Castellan too. The Valiant, despite its Overwatch potential, is also much more susceptible to getting "tied up" - a few high tier factions can bypass Overwatch or use clever positioning (i.e. making a charge from a ruin where you don't have Line of Sight) to deny you Overwatch - and with units that don't allow the Knight to retreat and shoot as normal. On the flip side, that Custodes trio on Jetbikes and any other potential assault elements are going to tear their hair out trying to make way against a well placed Valiant, and it acts as a giant midfield no-go zoning tool. Aeldari players that brought Hemlocks and Voidravens instead of Crimson Hunters and Razorwings will be having fits as you can make it extremely difficult for them to get into proper firing/bombing positions against their preferred targets without being immediately roasted, and the Harpoon - while the most unreliable of all the guns either Dominus class Knight can bring - is a nightmare for vehicles/monsters that lack invulnerable saves. Honestly, as much as some on here criticize the Harpoon for how swingy it due to the mere existence of invulnerable saves - among other things - having a weapon that reliably destroys Leman Russ tanks in a single shot is still awesome, and even tougher vehicles with strong invulnerable saves like Leviathans will be sweating profusely when facing down the barrel of one.

Understanding the place both might have in an army is absolutely crucial, and selling either of them short as you are is not smart in the context of competitive play. Seeing as you seemingly don't rate the Castellan, think of how popular Shadowswords are, and what makes them popular. Now, factor in a Knight that can easily attain re-roll 1s for to-hit, to-wound, damage and randomized shot number rolls, is magnitudes harder to destroy between either a 4++ (Warlord Trait) or 3++ (Warlord Trait plus Full Tilt) against shooting (with a potential 5++ against melee attacks via Sanctuary) plus a potential 5++ against mortal wounds (stratagem), has a comparable (but weaker) main gun, comparable or superior secondary anti-tank/anti-elite firepower from the turrets that then exceeds the Shadowsword at close range thanks to the twin-meltas, an extra main gun that - if you take the nigh mandatory Relic version and combine it with the re-roll 1s stratagem - is also extremely scary regardless of whether it is Overcharged or not, all for roughly 50-100 (depending on turret usage) points more, and that Knight can Outflank too (one of the Shadowsword's biggest selling points) without having to use a specific House. Provided you build the Knight properly (meaning passive 4++ with possible 3++ when needed, relic plasma, etc) you can and will win a firefight with a Shadowsword regardless of who shoots fist, which is fantastic. Also, don't undersell the value of a mobile weapons platform that doesn't have to be within 18" to bring most of its firepower to bear, for the exact reason Guard (and other infantry) bubble-wrap exists, even on a 28 wound Knight with a 4++ or 3++ denying your opponent as many avenues to destroy it as you can is crucial.

Also, your assertion that Helverins in conjunction with a Crusader will "do the job just fine, if not better" is amusing. A Crusader armed with the Rapid-Fire-Battle-Cannon is around 100 points less than a Castellan, and it's comparable anti-tank firepower regardless of which relic gun you take on it is laughable. Assuming you take the best relic weapon available to each and follow the most common load-outs (ergo Avenger + RFBC on Crusader) meaning the relic gatling cannon for the Crusader and the relic plasma for the Castellan, the relic plasma is a flat upgrade to the battle cannon - same number of shots, much better AP, and guaranteed Damage 2 or 3 (and Overcharging when you use that re-roll 1s stratagem is hardly a worry except against to-hit modifying armies) - and the lance is obviously a much better tank-killer than even the relic Avenger. For secondary armaments, the Crusader gets....Heavy Stubbers (with an optional Meltagun) and a Heavy Flamer, while the Castellan gets a nice combination of super-charged autocannons and special krak missiles that bypass invulnerable saves on top of four meltaguns. Where the Crusader has the Castellan beat is general infantry/elite clearing duties, especially with its improved melee capabilities (WS3+ instead of WS4+), and durability for the points, but as a long ranged tank hunter...not even close. Even if the Crusader takes the thermal cannon in place of the battle cannon, it still doesn't stack up well at all to the Castellan for tank hunting. Helverins are definitely good, but seeing as you can't actually fit one in alongside a Crusader for the same or less points than a Castellan, and Armigers crucially don't provide CP in Super Heavy detachments, your initial claim rings hollow.

Also...

Not to mention the volcano gun only seems to shine against other titanic units, so niche use, where the harpoon is good against monstrous units and vehicles, which you will see far more of, and the addition of mortal wounds, damage that cannot be saved against unless the enemy has FNP

What This is one of the most non-sensical statements I've read in a while. So a gun that kills titans effectively - meaning it ALSO kills vehicles and monsters effectively - is "niche" but the single shot 12" range Harpoon isn't by comparison? The long-ranged Volcano Lance that maths out to be better than the Harpoon against the majority of potential targets and doesn't need to be within 12" to be used is somehow....more niche? Rough math incoming; even without factoring in re-rolls to wound against Titanic units, if you were to shoot at T7 3+ - the most common vehicle/monster stat bracket in the game - the Volcano Lance averages out to (median rolls for random values) 3 hits, 3 wounds at AP-5 with 3D3 per shot for Damage, averaging out to about 18 Damage. Besides being far less reliable by virtue of being a single shot weapon (mind you, a D6 shot weapon isn't terribly reliable either, but that's what CP re-rolls are for), the Harpoon averages out to 12 Damage (10+D3 mortal wounds) against the same target type. Factoring in invulnerable saving throws only swings the equation further in favour of the Volcano Lance. Even at T8 3+ - one of the other very common stat brackets - the Volcano Lance still averages 2 wounds for 12 average Damage, the same as the Harpoon, and against targets with invulnerable saves, you're average damage is quite a bit higher. Let's not forget that the Lance can hit more than one model at a time and has over six times the range. Also, while it's nice that the Harpoon does mortal wounds, it only does those mortal wounds if it inflicts any Damage....meaning that your single shot Harpoon has to get past invulnerable saves anyway should they be present, thus rendering your "damage that cannot be saved" point utterly moot because dealing those mortal wounds is dependent on getting past potential saves.


As far as the topic creator is concerned, take the Dominus that best suits your army. If you need charge defence and area denial, take the Valiant. If you need long range fire support, take the Castellan. Or, take both because they complement each other very well

CelticKodiak wrote:
[. Not to mention the volcano gun only seems to shine against other titanic units, so niche use, where the harpoon is good against monstrous units and vehicles, which you will see far more of, and the addition of mortal wounds, damage that cannot be saved against unless the enemy has FNP.

Against those volcano still is causing about same as harpoon if it hits and wound. Ie after those well more. From turn 1 rather than 2-3 harpoon. And is more stable.

Volcano is flat out superior against all targets compared to harpoon. Without even thinking about range which gives 1-2 turns more shooting. Harpoon could be dead before shooting. Not even unlikely if you go second

Shadow sword should probably be 800 pts kitted out, and this discussion would be more moot.

Yeah, it really depends on your army and what you're seeing locally. My local shop has a crapton of Jetbike Custodies flying around, and dropping a Valiant onto the table is going to make their lives extremely difficult when they have to deal with that flamer.

The raw anti-flyer potential shouldn't be ignored either - Eldar fliers are going to scream at the idea of getting within firing range of a 3d6 rerolling flamer that wounds it on 3s.

Insularum wrote:
The Castellan certainly looks like the easiest to use, but really it's only selling point is the volcano lance (there are easier ways of putting down lots of plasma shots), and unless you have a target rich environment it's going to be quite inefficient at shooting up msu marines with a titan killer gun.

The Valliant's primary weapons look alright, but of more interest to me is that by hiding at range the Castellan will deny itself 4 melta shots and 12 titanic feet attacks per turn (I assume Dominus pattern knights will also get these). I'm not convinced that the Castellan primary guns are superior by 16 str 8 attacks that the Valiant is more likely to make use of. Also, whatever pattern of Dominus is taken it will be a fire magnet - an auto hitting primary weapon will be somewhat of a safeguard against the guaranteed degrading stats, so for now I'm leaning towards the Valiant.

Only selling point is the valcano lance, its a valcano lance with the plasma decimator, saying that the plasma isn't good just because there is a lot of other units with plasma is faulty logic, the damage output is far more than the valiant and it can do that at long distance. The valiant is better than all the other knights as a shock/close combat knight. If you just take the two main weapons the valcano lance and the plasma vs the hookshot and the conflagration it's 86 damage vs 76 damage and the 76 is limited by its range. The valiant is much better against other super heavies but even against them you are missing a whole turn of shooting, its very situational.

Valiant.

I know all the players that think they know the game best are going to come out of the woodworks and talk about how awesome it'll be to have a Castellan that sits in one spot all game and deletes a unit every turn, but that's BORING. LAME. IT'S BEEN DONE. If you want to sit in place and shoot things, there are a billion and a half other models that do just that.

Take a Valiant, the largest GW produced Knight with the biggest flamer in the game and a freakin' HARPOON LAUNCHER and laugh as you just roll 3d6 hits. Average, of, what, 9 or 10? That's auto hits. Wounding just about everything on 3's. What's that? You can re-roll wounds with a relic? WHY WOULDN'T YOU??? That's 9 wounds. That's a dead terminator squad. And that's not counting all the other guns this beast has on it.

Get into melta range, get into close combat range. Laugh as you get 3d6 auto-hits when your opponent tries to charge you to 'lock you in close combat' or tries to get his meh powerfists into range of you. You still get your stompy attacks before retreating and shooting him all over again.

What's that? Your Castellan is only hitting on 5's or 6's thanks to a degrading statline as you get wounded?

VALIANT STILL AUTO-HITS.

I don't care that it's only 18". If I'm not putting this thing as close to my opponent as possible, then I'm playing the whole game wrong anyway.

drbored wrote:
Valiant.

I know all the players that think they know the game best are going to come out of the woodworks and talk about how awesome it'll be to have a Castellan that sits in one spot all game and deletes a unit every turn, but that's BORING. LAME. IT'S BEEN DONE. If you want to sit in place and shoot things, there are a billion and a half other models that do just that.

Take a Valiant, the largest GW produced Knight with the biggest flamer in the game and a freakin' HARPOON LAUNCHER and laugh as you just roll 3d6 hits. Average, of, what, 9 or 10? That's auto hits. Wounding just about everything on 3's. What's that? You can re-roll wounds with a relic? WHY WOULDN'T YOU??? That's 9 wounds. That's a dead terminator squad. And that's not counting all the other guns this beast has on it.

Get into melta range, get into close combat range. Laugh as you get 3d6 auto-hits when your opponent tries to charge you to 'lock you in close combat' or tries to get his meh powerfists into range of you. You still get your stompy attacks before retreating and shooting him all over again.

What's that? Your Castellan is only hitting on 5's or 6's thanks to a degrading statline as you get wounded?

VALIANT STILL AUTO-HITS.

I don't care that it's only 18". If I'm not putting this thing as close to my opponent as possible, then I'm playing the whole game wrong anyway.

What are you talking about the Castellan only hits on 5's or 6's? The Acheron fills this roll so much better, it moves 14, which is so much better seeing that its using a flamer and its flamer is 2d6 st7 -2 D3, its reaper chainfist is nearly as good, and its far cheaper. The Castellan beats all the other knights at long range firepower except for the porcupine.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
The valiant is much better against other super heavies but even against them you are missing a whole turn of shooting, its very situational.

How is valiant really better? Volcano causes bit under 10 wounds in average vs T8 3+ target. Harpoon 7.5. Flamer 4.6666. Plasma 1.3 or 3.88 if you overheat. So 10.6333 or 13.22 vs 12.1666. Oh and more for castellan if you are shooting titanic target. And inv save makes harpoon super swingy. Often smaller steady damage over on/off is preferable also.

As for overheat yes it can cause mortal wound but average is about 1. Same as riptides btw take voluntarily all the time. Not that big deal and if you are shooting at super heavy that's worth it without shadow of doubt. How often that 1 wound is going to be really tipping the game...Tau at least clearly aren't thinking so seeing they are taking that mortal wound without trouble.

And harpoon is never getting worthwhile target on turn 1 if enemy doesn't want. Even FLAMER isn't quaranteed to reach anything but chaff on turn 1. You might not even live long enough to shoot harpoon!

Now is valiant useful? Yes. But I wouldn't go so far as say it's automatically better. If you are facing plenty of fliers(especially eldar) then yeah flamer is going to be darn useful. Whatabout if, like me, you don't even face foot eldar all that much let alone flier ones? I'm more worried about ability to blow up tanks from distance as that's what I face more often. Repulsor, leman russes, riptides. Stuff that are going to be standing far back, often behind screens and quite possibly moving away. Guess which one has easier time targeting those? 12" harpoon and 18" flamer than knight that has 48" range so basically can touch anywhere in the battlefield from T1...

Oh and as for battle reports...Well gee codex isn't even OUT yet so how many even have them? How many BR there are even with knight codex?

Castellan is the winner in damage output for sure. Valiant excels by other metrics though.

Knight players know that the most common way their knights go kaboom is through CC (or Shadowswords, yeesh). A squad of THs, Zerkers, Morty, Slamguinius or Magnus all spell doom for your knight as it is degraded beyond effectiveness. The Castallan is slightly less likey to be in CC due to board positioning, but really, if you're slapping a Dominus down, it's going to draw elite elements of your oppoenent's army to deal with it, so at best hiding in backfield buys you one turn of not being pranged with big hammers.

The Valiant brings the single best overwatch-gun in the game to the table. The relic version drops 6 MEQs, or (4.6 TEQs with no SS) on overwatch. Captain Slam will never make it into CC with him. Even a sacrificial charge, from a full-health Rhino, to take the overwatch is most likely (61%) going to result in a burning hulk. So it projects a huge no-no bubble wherever it goes.

So I don't know, what tool do you need? High damage potential or area denial and CC denial? Two great profiles, with both giving you a great deal for the points, imo.

tneva82 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
The valiant is much better against other super heavies but even against them you are missing a whole turn of shooting, its very situational.

How is valiant really better? Volcano causes bit under 10 wounds in average vs T8 3+ target. Harpoon 7.5. Flamer 4.6666. Plasma 1.3 or 3.88 if you overheat. So 10.6333 or 13.22 vs 12.1666. Oh and more for castellan if you are shooting titanic target. And inv save makes harpoon super swingy. Often smaller steady damage over on/off is preferable also.

As for overheat yes it can cause mortal wound but average is about 1. Same as riptides btw take voluntarily all the time. Not that big deal and if you are shooting at super heavy that's worth it without shadow of doubt. How often that 1 wound is going to be really tipping the game...Tau at least clearly aren't thinking so seeing they are taking that mortal wound without trouble.

And harpoon is never getting worthwhile target on turn 1 if enemy doesn't want. Even FLAMER isn't quaranteed to reach anything but chaff on turn 1. You might not even live long enough to shoot harpoon!

Now is valiant useful? Yes. But I wouldn't go so far as say it's automatically better. If you are facing plenty of fliers(especially eldar) then yeah flamer is going to be darn useful. Whatabout if, like me, you don't even face foot eldar all that much let alone flier ones? I'm more worried about ability to blow up tanks from distance as that's what I face more often. Repulsor, leman russes, riptides. Stuff that are going to be standing far back, often behind screens and quite possibly moving away. Guess which one has easier time targeting those? 12" harpoon and 18" flamer than knight that has 48" range so basically can touch anywhere in the battlefield from T1...

Oh and as for battle reports...Well gee codex isn't even OUT yet so how many even have them? How many BR there are even with knight codex?

I never said the valiant was better, I said it was better at super heavy hunting. Read all my comments, I said the Castellan is much better and explained why the Valiant isn't, the Valiant is only better in terms of hunting other super heavies, getting in CC and wrecking them.

Probably depends a lot on the rest of your army.


Castellan should almost certainly be Questor Mechanicus for the Relic, thus losing Hawkshroud, but probably is Taranis for the 6+ FNP. With a tiny bit of AdMech, you can Knight-of-the-Cog him a 1-reroll or Shroudsong, the former for the one round you really wanna overcharge. Of course, Questor Mechanicus also gives you the shoot-at-top-profile-even-with-only-one-wound Stratagem and the Taranis the stand-a-dead-knight-back-up-Stratagem. If you bring the 200 point cheap-o AdMech Detachment for Shroudsong and those extra CP, you'll also have an Enginseer to repair a wound a turn as long as you can keep your Castellan-spot free of enemy close combat.

Full-knight army aside, Castellan should do well as the only big guy in an AdMech force, getting Knight-of-the-Cog, Enginseer-repairs, Machine-Spirit-Resurgent, Taranis 6 FNP, etc.., etc.. while Diver-bots, Dragoons, etc... keep the cc away as long as possible.

Still, paying for 4 melta-guns you'll hope to never use still sucks.


Valiant would need Questor Imperialis if you want to maximise him with the relic, which almost certainly means Hawkshroud. He'll degrade slower, but no repairing. Even when he's degraded, the flamer still does the business, of course. Hopefully being into the enemy lines by the time he (inevitably) goes down, blowing him up instead of reviving him Mechanicus-style is probably the better call anyhow (and your only one). Shield Captains & co will still chew through him quickly and Slamguinius, most Solitaires spearheading a Harly-force and a few others cannot be overwatched, so be careful.

 grouchoben wrote:
Castellan is the winner in damage output for sure. Valiant excels by other metrics though.

Knight players know that the most common way their knights go kaboom is through CC (or Shadowswords, yeesh). A squad of THs, Zerkers, Morty, Slamguinius or Magnus all spell doom for your knight as it is degraded beyond effectiveness. The Castallan is slightly less likey to be in CC due to board positioning, but really, if you're slapping a Dominus down, it's going to draw elite elements of your oppoenent's army to deal with it, so at best hiding in backfield buys you one turn of not being pranged with big hammers.

The Valiant brings the single best overwatch-gun in the game to the table. The relic version drops 6 MEQs, or (4.6 TEQs with no SS) on overwatch. Captain Slam will never make it into CC with him. Even a sacrificial charge, from a full-health Rhino, to take the overwatch is most likely (61%) going to result in a burning hulk. So it projects a huge no-no bubble wherever it goes.

So I don't know, what tool do you need? High damage potential or area denial and CC denial? Two great profiles, with both giving you a great deal for the points, imo.

Captain slam WILL get to him. You know why? No overwatch...Then comes in his friends. Auto hits for overwatch helps you squash do when you can't overwatch to begin with!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

I never said the valiant was better, I said it was better at super heavy hunting. Read all my comments, I said the Castellan is much better and explained why the Valiant isn't, the Valiant is only better in terms of hunting other super heavies, getting in CC and wrecking them.

So how come lower damage output is better? Even without titanic keyword for the super heavy the castellan will outshoot against super heavies. With titanic keyword advantage goes better. And that's assuming you are in range. Valiant will be out of minimum 1 turn of harpoon fire, quite possibly 2. Flamer meanwhile is 0-1 turns out of shooting.

Higher output=better hunter. So castellan wins down. Even when you get into range with valiant. Harpoon good yes. Mini volcano better. Flamer good but it's not as good over plasma as to compensate enough. Factor in more shots for castellan and advantage is even better for castellan who is almost quaranteed to shoot at least once. Only times it won't is when valiant is just as dead!

Valiant is better at hunting infantry

I'm a huge fan of the valiant. That flamer is cash-money. I'm actually going to try giving him 2+ armor and take the WL trait where he gets to pick a weapon that wounds of 6 cause MW's in addition for the first few games. But the really big thing is not having to worry about -9001 to hit because of army tactics, stratagems, and high-flying-ness that are showing up everywhere.

Hawkshroud for the awesome greater good stratagem and degrade mitigation.

Maybe it's just because, as a BA player, I love close-range combat, but I think the val will be better since he can get in there, toss out a lot of pain, chun-li kick a unit while he's there, and threaten enemy objectives while having an absolutely scary defense against being charged.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
I'm a huge fan of the valiant. That flamer is cash-money. I'm actually going to try giving him 2+ armor and take the WL trait where he gets to pick a weapon that wounds of 6 cause MW's in addition for the first few games. But the really big thing is not having to worry about -9001 to hit because of army tactics, stratagems, and high-flying-ness that are showing up everywhere.

Hawkshroud for the awesome greater good stratagem and degrade mitigation.

Maybe it's just because, as a BA player, I love close-range combat, but I think the val will be better since he can get in there, toss out a lot of pain, chun-li kick a unit while he's there, and threaten enemy objectives while having an absolutely scary defense against being charged.

True. But if "all" you want is a really big distraction Carnifex, there's a case for just running down a 354 Knight Gallant (or 2?) at the enemy. Gallant is a nearly 250 points cheaper for just 2 wounds less and now hits on 2+ in cc with 5 attacks base (15 Stomp attacks on 2+ if you need to clear chaff on the way in). Give him maybe Hawkshroud, the Warlord Trait that refunds a CP and as relic either a 5++ in cc or a 4+++ against smite and let him go.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
I'm a huge fan of the valiant. That flamer is cash-money. I'm actually going to try giving him 2+ armor and take the WL trait where he gets to pick a weapon that wounds of 6 cause MW's in addition for the first few games. But the really big thing is not having to worry about -9001 to hit because of army tactics, stratagems, and high-flying-ness that are showing up everywhere.

Hawkshroud for the awesome greater good stratagem and degrade mitigation.

Maybe it's just because, as a BA player, I love close-range combat, but I think the val will be better since he can get in there, toss out a lot of pain, chun-li kick a unit while he's there, and threaten enemy objectives while having an absolutely scary defense against being charged.

For me valiant would be often not in range of targets I want to shoot and to get them often has to go to direction opponent dictates. Which means less control over taking objectives. Less turns blowing up riptides etc, harder time controlling objectives as I need to decide do I want to be in range with flamer or go for the objective.

tneva82 wrote:


For me valiant would be often not in range of targets I want to shoot and to get them often has to go to direction opponent dictates. Which means less control over taking objectives. Less turns blowing up riptides etc, harder time controlling objectives as I need to decide do I want to be in range with flamer or go for the objective.

On the other hand, if you have something like an Astra Militarum army, CPs out of your nose and perhaps no other juicy target for that Blood Angel captain, you could spend the 3 CP to deepstrike the Valiant on turn 2, 9" away and unload, after the Guard (hopefully) cleared the screening in turn 1

Not sure if it's viable, but I think it'd be kinda hilarious.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
I'm a huge fan of the valiant. That flamer is cash-money. I'm actually going to try giving him 2+ armor and take the WL trait where he gets to pick a weapon that wounds of 6 cause MW's in addition for the first few games. But the really big thing is not having to worry about -9001 to hit because of army tactics, stratagems, and high-flying-ness that are showing up everywhere.

Hawkshroud for the awesome greater good stratagem and degrade mitigation.

Maybe it's just because, as a BA player, I love close-range combat, but I think the val will be better since he can get in there, toss out a lot of pain, chun-li kick a unit while he's there, and threaten enemy objectives while having an absolutely scary defense against being charged.

True. But if "all" you want is a really big distraction Carnifex, there's a case for just running down a 354 Knight Gallant (or 2?) at the enemy. Gallant is a nearly 250 points cheaper for just 2 wounds less and now hits on 2+ in cc with 5 attacks base (15 Stomp attacks on 2+ if you need to clear chaff on the way in). Give him maybe Hawkshroud, the Warlord Trait that refunds a CP and as relic either a 5++ in cc or a 4+++ against smite and let him go.

He would lack the ability to do anything to flyers or units behind other units though, and would get smacked around by enemy melee units that charge unless there are multiple units giving him a chance to interrupt. I don't view the val as a distraction carnifex buying time for other units, but rather a unit in there doing the work himself. He also has the hawkshroud strat, meaning if he's alongside other knights or my BA on the front lines, he gives me a large denial zone of "Feth your charging unit that wants to counter-charge my DC!"

I'm not saying he's ultra-competitive. That title in the book definitely goes to the little helverins. But he plays like I want a ~570 point unit to play. Active, relevant, and doing something in nearly every phase.

tneva82 wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Castellan is the winner in damage output for sure. Valiant excels by other metrics though.

Knight players know that the most common way their knights go kaboom is through CC (or Shadowswords, yeesh). A squad of THs, Zerkers, Morty, Slamguinius or Magnus all spell doom for your knight as it is degraded beyond effectiveness. The Castallan is slightly less likey to be in CC due to board positioning, but really, if you're slapping a Dominus down, it's going to draw elite elements of your oppoenent's army to deal with it, so at best hiding in backfield buys you one turn of not being pranged with big hammers.

The Valiant brings the single best overwatch-gun in the game to the table. The relic version drops 6 MEQs, or (4.6 TEQs with no SS) on overwatch. Captain Slam will never make it into CC with him. Even a sacrificial charge, from a full-health Rhino, to take the overwatch is most likely (61%) going to result in a burning hulk. So it projects a huge no-no bubble wherever it goes.

So I don't know, what tool do you need? High damage potential or area denial and CC denial? Two great profiles, with both giving you a great deal for the points, imo.

Captain slam WILL get to him. You know why? No overwatch...Then comes in his friends. Auto hits for overwatch helps you squash do when you can't overwatch to begin with!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

I never said the valiant was better, I said it was better at super heavy hunting. Read all my comments, I said the Castellan is much better and explained why the Valiant isn't, the Valiant is only better in terms of hunting other super heavies, getting in CC and wrecking them.

So how come lower damage output is better? Even without titanic keyword for the super heavy the castellan will outshoot against super heavies. With titanic keyword advantage goes better. And that's assuming you are in range. Valiant will be out of minimum 1 turn of harpoon fire, quite possibly 2. Flamer meanwhile is 0-1 turns out of shooting.

Higher output=better hunter. So castellan wins down. Even when you get into range with valiant. Harpoon good yes. Mini volcano better. Flamer good but it's not as good over plasma as to compensate enough. Factor in more shots for castellan and advantage is even better for castellan who is almost quaranteed to shoot at least once. Only times it won't is when valiant is just as dead!

Valiant is better at hunting infantry

What are you on about, I already agree with you, the Castellan is better. In CC the Valiant is better though and it would chew through any other super heavy in CC with ease, in CC doesn't do as much total damage as the Castellan does but it consistently would do more damage on average, as with the Castellan you are rolling D6's to see what attacks you get and rolling D3's to see what damage you are doing etc. which can end up in very low output, whereas the Valiant does a solid 10 damage per unsaved wound and an extra d3 mortal wounds for every unsaved wound. Whatever you are going after in CC this will most likely kill it, For its points its a gak infantry killer, you can do more with less points, its best use is for killing big game in CC.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
What are you on about, I agree with you the Castellan is better. In CC the Valiant is better though and it would chew through any other super heavy in CC with ease, in CC doesn't do as much total damage as the Castellan does but it consistently would do more damage on average, as you are rolling D6's to see what attacks you get and rolling D3's to see what damage you are doing etc. which can end up in very low output, whereas the Valiant does a solid 10 damage per unsaved wound and an extra d3 mortal wounds for every unsaved wound. For its points its a gak infantry killer, you can do more with less points, its best use is for killing big game in CC.

Huh? I actually have no idea what you're trying to say. How is the Valiant better in close combat? Both are WS4+ with the same Strength, Attacks and melee weapon (Titanic Feet). The Castellan and Valiant are thus entirely equal in close combat. However, the Castellan outshoots the Valiant against any form of vehicle/monster/big target that doesn't impose negative to-hit modifiers - and it probably still wins out against some of those, depending on what specific unit it is. Are you trying to say the Harpoon is a close combat weapon? It isn't. Facts are the Castellan is the better titan-killer and both I and others have shown maths to prove that.