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 GreatGranpapy wrote:
Have Renegade and Forgebane so I'm a decent way to a Knight army. Thinking of this for the target list.

Thinking of going for House Hawkshroud

Crusader (Warlord: Ion Bulwark probably)
Rapid-fire battle cannon, Avenger gatling cannon, Stormspear rockets, and Heavy stubber

Gallant (Exalted Court: Landstrider probably)
Reaper chain-sword, Paragon Gauntlet, and Meltagun

Warden
Avenger gatling cannon, Reaper chain-sword, and Heavy stubber
Might get Helm of the Nameless Warrior but might hold off for the CP

2x Warglaives (one with Meltagun one with Heavy stubber)

2x Helverins (what's a Helverin anyway?

Whole list comes to 1997 points.

Not fan of gallant with relic fist. Apart from having cc exclusive knight in shooty edition(thus being at mercy of opponent for offensive) puttingrelic fist there means you waste points on chainsword. Also you'll be stomping most of the time anyway. Now relic fist on warden? That's more like it. Though i would priorize relic gatling gun first

tneva82 wrote:

 GreatGranpapy wrote:
Have Renegade and Forgebane so I'm a decent way to a Knight army. Thinking of this for the target list.

Thinking of going for House Hawkshroud

Crusader (Warlord: Ion Bulwark probably)
Rapid-fire battle cannon, Avenger gatling cannon, Stormspear rockets, and Heavy stubber

Gallant (Exalted Court: Landstrider probably)
Reaper chain-sword, Paragon Gauntlet, and Meltagun

Warden
Avenger gatling cannon, Reaper chain-sword, and Heavy stubber
Might get Helm of the Nameless Warrior but might hold off for the CP

2x Warglaives (one with Meltagun one with Heavy stubber)

2x Helverins (what's a Helverin anyway?

Whole list comes to 1997 points.

Not fan of gallant with relic fist. Apart from having cc exclusive knight in shooty edition(thus being at mercy of opponent for offensive) puttingrelic fist there means you waste points on chainsword. Also you'll be stomping most of the time anyway. Now relic fist on warden? That's more like it. Though i would priorize relic gatling gun first

You want it on the Gallant as he has WS 2, A5 vs WS3 A4 on a standard knight.

Gallant is all about leveraging the maximum threat for the minimum spend on a knight. The guy can level most targets in one round of CC and costs 354pts.

i would always go for seneshal + cc invuln relic on a gallant. (and house krast as ALWAYS [krast wl trait on a crusader is not 2 bad ])

 TommyBoy13 wrote:


You want it on the Gallant as he has WS 2, A5 vs WS3 A4 on a standard knight.

But he'll wreck targets anyway so you thus waste points on chainsword without really gaining much. Not many targets in game where you need it. Moost of the time you stomp anyway.

There's diminishing rate of returns. Once certain point no point adding more. Gallant can deal most of targets anyway and majority charges will be what enemy wants, ie ig infantry squads etc, that gallant has exceeded it naked. Warden meanwhile hasn't

You want the Paragon Gauntlet on the Knight that will make the most Deathgrips.

Gallant has the opportunity to and has the highest reliability of getting them off. Ergo he gets the relic.

I think two warglaives are better than a Gallant. They are obviously nowhere near as nasty in cc individually, but each has a decent gun and is pretty scary for its price.

The main thing is being able to be in two places at once. Often, the most important thing is tying up a unit in combat, or even just threatening to. You present your opponent with two problems instead of one.

 raverrn wrote:
You want the Paragon Gauntlet on the Knight that will make the most Deathgrips.

Gallant has the opportunity to and has the highest reliability of getting them off. Ergo he gets the relic.

Well. You give it to modei that gets least effective benefit from it. But of course you are free to waste efficiency. Your army

tneva82 wrote:

 raverrn wrote:
You want the Paragon Gauntlet on the Knight that will make the most Deathgrips.

Gallant has the opportunity to and has the highest reliability of getting them off. Ergo he gets the relic.

Well. You give it to modei that gets least effective benefit from it. But of course you are free to waste efficiency. Your army

I beg to differ. The Gallant has more attacks and a higher WS, it gets more effective use of the weapon.

I think they're quite well balanced tbh. Depends whether you want +1A and +1WS or to pay 40pts to trade those for a heavy flamer and Gatling cannon. Both seem viable.

tneva82 wrote:

Not fan of gallant with relic fist. Apart from having cc exclusive knight in shooty edition(thus being at mercy of opponent for offensive) puttingrelic fist there means you waste points on chainsword. Also you'll be stomping most of the time anyway. Now relic fist on warden? That's more like it. Though i would priorize relic gatling gun first

I see where your coming from. I'm not the most experienced player so a lot of what went into that decision was a rule of cool: "A massive fist that hits on 2s! Let's punch some fools!" but I understand it is perhaps not the most optimal choice.

My Gallant just sliced through a daemon prince and death grip choked out another whilst laughing.

No gauntlet was needed only increasing his invulnerable saves 4++ and 5++

Got lucky he made his charge

A Gallant really only needs the Gauntlet if facing other Knights. 8 Damage is really good as 3 successful wounds will insta-kill an enemy Knight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mandragola wrote:
I think two warglaives are better than a Gallant. They are obviously nowhere near as nasty in cc individually, but each has a decent gun and is pretty scary for its price.

The main thing is being able to be in two places at once. Often, the most important thing is tying up a unit in combat, or even just threatening to. You present your opponent with two problems instead of one.

Warglaives are pretty good but their one weakness compared to the Gallant is that they cannot Withdraw, shoot and charge again. This can be particularly relevant if you have a House Trait that provides bonuses on the turn you charge.

I just got wrecked by Tau and it’s made me a little disillusioned with the Valiant.

2k points He brought 2 riptides, a stormsurge, broadside, marksmen, shadowsun some drones and 30 fire warriors.

I had a hawkshroud valiant, gallant, crusader. I put the 2+ save relic on the gallant with landstrider warlord trait, flamer relic on valiant with +1 invul save trait, and Gatling cannon on crusader. I took a batallion of AM with 2 mortar heavy weapon teams (9 mortars overall including in the infantry squads) and a vanguard of 3 culexus assassins.

Now if you look at the lists it’s kinda obvious that I brought a general all comers list while he built his list to shoot knights. I also had first turn with my +1 to the roll but was seized on. He killed my valiant first turn with a bit of shooting to spare. By turn 3 my knights were dead and I conceded.

What I’ve learned:
Defensive relics against tau are useless. If they want to focus something down they will. If I took paragon gauntlet on my gallant I could have killed the stormsurge turn 1 thanks to landstrider and a good charge roll. Would have saved me some 15 wounds to knights I took over the next 2 shooting phase.
Dominus knights will be focused down asap. They know you need to burn 3cp to rotate the shields. Valiant needs to be on the edge of your deployment zone whereas you can hang your castellan back and avoid anything range 36 or lower. My valiant took wounds from fire warriors turn 1 allowing him to activate the +1 to wound strat with his strength 9 weapons so most of his army had 2+ to wound vs toughness 8.

Oh man, it's not even close for me. Gallants beat the snot out of warglaives. I just came back from a game where my gallant tanked three shooting and charging, interrupted and killed two of them, then finished the other off in my turn. Paragon gauntlet relic, by the way, increases expected damage against a Russ or a knight in CC by 11, and makes deathgrip more reliable. Bargain.

Jean Borrower wrote:
I just got wrecked by Tau and it’s made me a little disillusioned with the Valiant.

2k points He brought 2 riptides, a stormsurge, broadside, marksmen, shadowsun some drones and 30 fire warriors.

I had a hawkshroud valiant, gallant, crusader. I put the 2+ save relic on the gallant with landstrider warlord trait, flamer relic on valiant with +1 invul save trait, and Gatling cannon on crusader. I took a batallion of AM with 2 mortar heavy weapon teams (9 mortars overall including in the infantry squads) and a vanguard of 3 culexus assassins.

Now if you look at the lists it’s kinda obvious that I brought a general all comers list while he built his list to shoot knights. I also had first turn with my +1 to the roll but was seized on. He killed my valiant first turn with a bit of shooting to spare. By turn 3 my knights were dead and I conceded.

What I’ve learned:
Defensive relics against tau are useless. If they want to focus something down they will. If I took paragon gauntlet on my gallant I could have killed the stormsurge turn 1 thanks to landstrider and a good charge roll. Would have saved me some 15 wounds to knights I took over the next 2 shooting phase.
Dominus knights will be focused down asap. They know you need to burn 3cp to rotate the shields. Valiant needs to be on the edge of your deployment zone whereas you can hang your castellan back and avoid anything range 36 or lower. My valiant took wounds from fire warriors turn 1 allowing him to activate the +1 to wound strat with his strength 9 weapons so most of his army had 2+ to wound vs toughness 8.

Tau are basically the anti knights list and to be honest he probably could have taken a much nastier list than what it sounds like he took a fairly standard tau list to be honest.

Tau are basically the anti knights list and to be honest he probably could have taken a much nastier list than what it sounds like he took a fairly standard tau list to be honest. wrote:

His standard list has many more fire warriors and riptides armed with anti infantry guns. Still think that build would have beaten my army especially seizing first turn. But maybe I’d have lasted to turn 4-5.

All of this is just convincing me more and more that the Valiant is a trap. Its short range keeps it off the top tables. You will eventually run into a hard shooting list over the course of a GT. The RAVEN castellan can sit behind a terrain piece on the opposite side of the board and get a 50% obscured cover save. I think this is why there were like 3 castellans in the top 8 at the flying monkey GT.

The Valiant just has to be deployed right on your deployment edge because it is both sluggish and short ranged. If you get a bad deployment and get seized, there just isn't anything you can do.

 raverrn wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 raverrn wrote:
You want the Paragon Gauntlet on the Knight that will make the most Deathgrips.

Gallant has the opportunity to and has the highest reliability of getting them off. Ergo he gets the relic.

Well. You give it to modei that gets least effective benefit from it. But of course you are free to waste efficiency. Your army

I beg to differ. The Gallant has more attacks and a higher WS, it gets more effective use of the weapon.

Gallant with normal thunderstrike is only "knocked down to 3+ WS, and is making 5 attacks vs other large targets.

Any gun+melee knight with paragon gets 3+ WS, and makes 5 attacks.

I already broke down the Gallant in melee with what weapon for which target several pages back.

So now we are down to the Gallant is wasting 30 points(reaper) as he will never use it if he has the Paragon, and in most lists you are spending 2 CPs in order to waste those points.

In matched play you can only deathgrip once per turn; you can do that just fine with a normal thunderstrike instead of the paragon. Dam 8 on the paragon is offset by the Gallant's extra attacks: the 3 to kill an enemy knight is only 4 with Thunderstrike. With the 5 attacks at 3+(non-Senechal), you are not going to need more than 1 deathgrip attack against most enemies to begin with as you have already hit them 2-3 times.

Now a Gun knight with paragon attacks exactly as well against a single target as a gallant with Thunderstrike, and the gun-knight needs it more if you are spending the 5 points on any guantlet.

Wulfey wrote:
All of this is just convincing me more and more that the Valiant is a trap. Its short range keeps it off the top tables. You will eventually run into a hard shooting list over the course of a GT. The RAVEN castellan can sit behind a terrain piece on the opposite side of the board and get a 50% obscured cover save. I think this is why there were like 3 castellans in the top 8 at the flying monkey GT.

The Valiant just has to be deployed right on your deployment edge because it is both sluggish and short ranged. If you get a bad deployment and get seized, there just isn't anything you can do.

Got a battle report about the Valiant as well.

I went up against a similar Tau list as stated above, protecting for an upcoming tournament, ITC board, rules, scoring, etc.

Tau sept

50 Firewarriors

Darkstrider

Ethereal with unity through devastation and 6+ CP regen

15 Pathfinders

3 Pulse Accelerator drones

Longstrike with d6 str 8 3 damage guns and seeker missiles

3 Hammerheads with the d6 str 8 3 damage guns and seeker missiles

2 Riptides

Cadre Fireblade(s?)

Some markerlight dude who hit on 2s

Sacea markerlight guy so he could use a strategem

My list was:

Graia Forgeworld

24 Vanguard

10 Hoplites

2 Enginseers

House Taranis

Valiant with Iron Bulwark and armor of the sainted ion

Crusader with stormspeaer and Endless Fury, Warlord trait was +1 CP and free reroll

Styrix with twin rad cleanser run as a Freeblade with Legendary Hero

I gave my opponent first turn because I always practice tournament games going second. Turn one he brought down the Styrix who had a 3++. Hoplites were wiped by Smart missiles from the Riptides and Hammerheads. Firewarriors are hilariously good, I was very impressed, he brought it down with seeker missiles on the hammerheads to spare. My turn basically shot and killed Longstrike, killed Firewarriors, killed pathfinders that was it. Charged some firewarriors that had moved up to get into rapid fire of the Styrix and rinsed them.

Turn two I knew my Crusader was next on the chopping block, saved a reroll for my Taranis Strat, great insurance against alpha striking gunlines by the way! It's a nice way to turn the tide. Anyway he was brought down much the same way as the Styrix, Taranis strat didn't need a reroll and he got back up next turn on two wounds. Repaired him up to four, Machine Spirit Resurgent and he rinsed more firewarriors and a hammerhead. Valiant was stuck killing firewarriors and pathfinders, after this turn there were no firewarriors left and a five man squad of pathfinders in the back, the flamer did wonders at clearing infantry, with the stomps obviously. Vanguard were thin on the ground but doing consistent damage to dwindling number of Firewarriors, my Vanguard would be dead next turn though. I like Vanguard though, aggressive infantry for an aggressive army like Knights is important.

Turn three bye bye Crusader, took a little bit more to kill him than my opponent wanted (rolled three sixes when two ion shots came through) but he want down all the same). Valiant took a few wounds after rotating ion shields but nothing notable. Repaired him nearly to full during my turn thanks to a tailing enginseer, I think he only had one or two wounds missing? Anyway I was in range of the harpoon, one shot a hammerhead (always put the siege cannons on your harpoon target as insurance to get that final wound) and melted a Riptide with Conflag Cannon in a single flame, blew away Longstrike and the Ethereal with meltas, stomped on some pathfinders.

Turn four Taus support and CP had run out, I was down to a couple of CP myself but without consistent marker lights and strategem use the army began to fall apart. A handful of wounds came through, Valiant was down to 20 or so? Enginseer still tailing. Scorched the other riptide and battle cannons him bringing him down to three wounds, harpooned the last Hammerhead, dead (meltas as insurance) charged and killed the riptide, took a few wounds in overwatch down to 17.

Turn five there were some firewarriors left! They, along with some Pathfinders, shot and charged my Enginseer, along with a Cadre fireblade, he miraculously survived on one wound. I wish he hadn't because he was surrounded and I couldn't shoot the blob of Tau infantry so my Valiant just killed some stray markerlight guys instead along with a pathfinder that was hiding. Enginseers suck in combat, and he lived through my phase as well. Turn six he lived through yet another combat phase and my valiant finally came in but with ten or so infantry on the board it didn't matter, the Valiant couldn't combat them all to death.

Score was 27 to AdMech/Knights 21 to Tau.

I think folks run the Valiant wrong, giving him massive defenses does make a big difference and the one to two wounds repaired each turn along with Taranis is pretty crucial. My Valiant would have been down to 9 wounds had it not been for my AdMech repairs and Taranis instead of his comfortable 16 wound ending. If the opponent focuses him down and does manage to get him down turn one the other Knights need to be very deadly in shooting to punish that. I go in to each game expecting to lose a Knight turn one, I've considered running the Styrix as Taranis so he has the potential of getting back up in case/when he dies turn one, but I rarely have seen an army capable of killing him outright with his double reroll (Legendary Hero+CP reroll) 3++ so maybe I'll keep him as Freeblade, dunno. If I know for sure a knight is going to die I save a reroll for the Taranis strat, it is a massive game changer. Anyway, just putting this out there to show that the Valiant is good, if used properly and not focused turn one, I mean I could say the Styrix is trash because he literally killed nothing, but I know the knight and if he is ignored he is a beast, just because a knight dies turn one doesn't mean it's bad, that's the way turn one goes.

Taking the 2+ save on my Valiant would have prevented a single wound from a fire warrior’s roll of 5 to wound (6s were -1 ap). My valiant died turn one with 4 wounds overkill from stormsurge 1 shot only mortal wound missiles.

Grats on your win but it seems you were up against significantly less anti-armour.

The repairing enginseer is an interesting twist. I think that is a sharp idea if you aren't going to go hardcore CP farming. Most lists run the guard battalion for the 5+/5+ but I have alway wanted to try the repairs. The thinking in the admech thread is that STYGIES is the way to go so I am surprised you ran GRAIA.

But what does the valiant do that the castellan cant? If you are TARANIS then you aren't getting the reroll to wound flamer. But a TARANIS castellan can get the super plasma gun, and you have the repairs to offset the overcharging. I think the big takeaway is that TARANIS is really good. No other household has an answer to a 2000 point shooting list.

Jean Borrower wrote:
Taking the 2+ save on my Valiant would have prevented a single wound from a fire warrior’s roll of 5 to wound (6s were -1 ap). My valiant died turn one with 4 wounds overkill from stormsurge 1 shot only mortal wound missiles. Grats on your win but it seems you were up against significantly less anti-armour.

I would love to face a Stormsurge over Longstrike+Hammerheads and Tau Firewarriors that can wound my Knights on threes, yes please. Imperalis Knights are... lacking anyways, no mortal wound protection, no possibility of ignoring damage, every wound hurts very badly with Imperalis Knights.

Traditional anti tank doesn't bother me as a Knights player as much as it has. Its the million shots that forces my 3+ armor or the multi wound decent ap (ap -1 or 2) decent rate of fire that gets me. The traditional Las Cannon or D3 high str high dmg high ap weapons don't do well against a Valiant or Styrix with a 3++, it just doesn't, the rate of fire is abysmal. So what killed the Valiant?

Not sure how you don't see four Hammerheads with longstrike being one of them as a lot of anti tank, but you know, its your dead Valiant.

Wulfey wrote:
The repairing enginseer is an interesting twist. I think that is a sharp idea if you aren't going to go hardcore CP farming. Most lists run the guard battalion for the 5+/5+ but I have alway wanted to try the repairs. The thinking in the admech thread is that STYGIES is the way to go so I am surprised you ran GRAIA.

But what does the valiant do that the castellan cant? If you are TARANIS then you aren't getting the reroll to wound flamer. But a TARANIS castellan can get the super plasma gun, and you have the repairs to offset the overcharging. I think the big takeaway is that TARANIS is really good. No other household has an answer to a 2000 point shooting list.

I think consistency is what the Valiant does over the Castellan. Look at the Castellan weapons and then look at the Valiant Weapons. The Valiant will one shot anything that does not have an invuln, flat, the Castellan easily has that potential but can whiff, the reroll with the Harpoon is more reliable than d6 shots in this instance. The Flamer vs Plasma is that the Flamer removes a gate entirely (to hit gate) and has d6 more shots, but again range is sacrificed. I think both Knights are extraordinary and both are viable. Also the relic flamer isn't THAT good to give up Taranis haha.

As for Enginseers and repairs in general people think that one or two wounds a turn won't make a big difference but couple that with ignoring mortal wound strategem and House Taranis 6+++ and it adds up to be a lot of wounds over the course of a game. All totaled in that game I relayed I probably repaired/revived 14 wounds between the Crusader and Valiant alone (poor Styrix).

 Goldenemperor wrote:

Jean Borrower wrote:
Taking the 2+ save on my Valiant would have prevented a single wound from a fire warrior’s roll of 5 to wound (6s were -1 ap). My valiant died turn one with 4 wounds overkill from stormsurge 1 shot only mortal wound missiles. Grats on your win but it seems you were up against significantly less anti-armour.

I would love to face a Stormsurge over Longstrike+Hammerheads and Tau Firewarriors that can wound my Knights on threes, yes please. Imperalis Knights are... lacking anyways, no mortal wound protection, no possibility of ignoring damage, every wound hurts very badly with Imperalis Knights.

Traditional anti tank doesn't bother me as a Knights player as much as it has. Its the million shots that forces my 3+ armor or the multi wound decent ap (ap -1 or 2) decent rate of fire that gets me. The traditional Las Cannon or D3 high str high dmg high ap weapons don't do well against a Valiant or Styrix with a 3++, it just doesn't, the rate of fire is abysmal. So what killed the Valiant?

Not sure how you don't see four Hammerheads with longstrike being one of them as a lot of anti tank, but you know, its your dead Valiant.

I lost my valiant turn 1 before any repairs can be made. Yours went the distance. Why is it confusing that I faced more anti tank? Doesn’t mean I faced a better army. 2 riptides with anti armour loadout, stormsurge (again, anti-armour loadout), commander coldstar with quad fusion, and rail rifle broadsides is significantly more anti-tank than 4 tanks and 2 riptides. Mathematically Taranis would have left my Valiant with a 50% chance of being alive with 1 wound. So I’d then have to pay a cp for resurgence to have the chance to shoot some fire warriors with the non-relic flamer. Paying 2 cp for the Taranis strat is one of the biggest traps in the book as it’s only on a 4+. Then you’ll pay another cp for resurgence to then use your valiant at limited potential (because you have the base weapon).

Knights aren’t lacking. They were all over top tables at a gt. Valiant may be though.

I think you have a warped perspective. What if they blew up a Crusader turn one, he is almost the same point if you throw on a melta gun and missile and give the Valiant four missiles. Would you say the Crusader is lacking then? A Castellan would have died the same way as your Valiant. Doing nothing. You say it's a trap after a single game, I think that's silly.

I won't claim the Valiant is as good as the Castellan I also won't claim the Castellan is as good as the Valiant because I won't pretend to know it all. Both Knights have merits, just because you have not seen them personally doesn't mean they do not exist and does not mean the Knight is less viable. Castellan or Valiant, both are good, I've heard the same thing in other forums except that the Castellan is bad hearing horror stories about how little damage it does. I defended the Castellan as I do the Valiant, set expectations accordingly. Also Taranis strat is a trap too? Tell me what isn't a trap oh wise one.

 Goldenemperor wrote:
I think you have a warped perspective. What if they blew up a Crusader turn one, he is almost the same point if you throw on a melta gun and missile and give the Valiant four missiles. Would you say the Crusader is lacking then? A Castellan would have died the same way as your Valiant. Doing nothing. You say it's a trap after a single game, I think that's silly.

I won't claim the Valiant is as good as the Castellan I also won't claim the Castellan is as good as the Valiant because I won't pretend to know it all. Both Knights have merits, just because you have not seen them personally doesn't mean they do not exist and does not mean the Knight is less viable. Castellan or Valiant, both are good, I've heard the same thing in other forums except that the Castellan is bad hearing horror stories about how little damage it does. I defended the Castellan as I do the Valiant, set expectations accordingly. Also Taranis strat is a trap too? Tell me what isn't a trap oh wise one.

I said the Taranis strategem is a trap, the house itself is fine but not required. If you fail the 4+ roll you'll invest another CP to reroll, if it succeeds you'll spend a CP for resurgence. Up to 4 CP for a chance to shoot once. Trap if you're using it turn 1, usable if it's turn 5 and you're trying a last ditch effort to win the game. If you're making Hail Mary passes on turn 1 then it's very hard to regain control of the game. Also please note that I was not the one who called the Valiant a trap, though I did say I'm disillusioned with it.

I definitely intend to test it more. My opponent specifically tailored his list because he knew he was up against knights and didn't know if his all-comers Tau was up for it.

My crusader was out of range of most of his guns. He did so much damage because he popped Kauyon on Shadowsun which meant he couldn't move for any reason and still get the reroll to hit. So, yes, another crusader in place of the valiant would have served me better in this specific case. More testing required but losing a 600 point model without using it and still seeing no way of avoiding it has left a sour taste.

Jean Borrower wrote:

 Goldenemperor wrote:
I think you have a warped perspective. What if they blew up a Crusader turn one, he is almost the same point if you throw on a melta gun and missile and give the Valiant four missiles. Would you say the Crusader is lacking then? A Castellan would have died the same way as your Valiant. Doing nothing. You say it's a trap after a single game, I think that's silly.

I won't claim the Valiant is as good as the Castellan I also won't claim the Castellan is as good as the Valiant because I won't pretend to know it all. Both Knights have merits, just because you have not seen them personally doesn't mean they do not exist and does not mean the Knight is less viable. Castellan or Valiant, both are good, I've heard the same thing in other forums except that the Castellan is bad hearing horror stories about how little damage it does. I defended the Castellan as I do the Valiant, set expectations accordingly. Also Taranis strat is a trap too? Tell me what isn't a trap oh wise one.

I said the Taranis strategem is a trap, the house itself is fine but not required. If you fail the 4+ roll you'll invest another CP to reroll, if it succeeds you'll spend a CP for resurgence. Up to 4 CP for a chance to shoot once. Trap. Also please note that I was not the one who called the Valiant a trap, though I did say I'm disillusioned with it.

I definitely intend to test it more. My opponent specifically tailored his list because he knew he was up against knights and didn't know if his all-comers Tau was up for it.

My crusader was out of range of most of his guns. He did so much damage because he popped Kauyon on Shadowsun which meant he couldn't move for any reason and still get the reroll to hit. So, yes, another crusader in place of the valiant would have served me better in this specific case. More testing required but losing a 600 point model without using it and still seeing no way of avoiding it has left a sour taste.

All I will say is one round of shooting from a fully decked out Crusader with Endless Fury or a properly positioned Valiant/Castellan is enough to swing the game MASSIVELY in your favour, potentially winning it. For a 50/50 (higher with a reroll) I will buy that for a dollar. It's just extra insurance in case I don't go first, or I do lose that Knight turn one, whatever the case is.

Has anyone experimented with using relic ‘blessed by the sacristans’ and either ‘controlled aggression’ or ‘glory in honour’ stratagems?

Probably quite situations but using feet on a Gallant and one of those as a mortal wound generator could be interesting maybe?

so how is everyone finding warglaives and helverins? so far my warglaives are good for dying, really good at it, as in they do their job of taking the hit for the big knights.

helverins on the other hand wreck face. Damage 3 might have been a bit much.

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Has anyone experimented with using relic ‘blessed by the sacristans’ and either ‘controlled aggression’ or ‘glory in honour’ stratagems?

Probably quite situations but using feet on a Gallant and one of those as a mortal wound generator could be interesting maybe?

FYI that is a warlord trait not relic