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Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Death company so extra attack on charge

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

 JNAProductions wrote:
12-16? They're 4 attacks base, aren't they?
So that's 4+1d3 (for a Strat) and then fight again, for another 4 (and only maybe the d3-not sure if that applies again), for 5-14, average of 12.

12 attacks
28/3 hits
56/9 wounds
28/9 against a 4++, 140/27 against a 3+
For a total of (assuming 3 damage) 9.33 against a 4++, 15.56 against a 3+.

But you can get a 4 damage Thunderhammer or a Thunderhammer without a hit penalty, which does affect the math.
They are almost always rocking Death Visions of Sanguinius to get an extra attack on the charge.

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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




U02dah4 wrote:
Hard hitting CC units are the best e.g. Smash CPT most knights don't get an invul in CC and a BA smash CPT can mostly take a single knight on its own. If they take Sanctuary they are not takeing Ion bulwalk.so your shooting is going to be more effective. A 4++ will still let a lot of hits through in CC.

A BA CPT 116pt strategemed up makes 12-16 Attacks
Hitting 3's rerolling 1's wounding 3's 3 damage
Avg
11Damage vs 4++
18 vs no inv

Mortal W spam is an obvious counter

Strategem Countering is also potentially viable depending on the list a pure knights list is very CP tight so a calidous can potential exhaust it quickly agents of vecht is also an answer

@ mendragola
Unless the knight is completely surrounded by infantry a smash CPT will walk through and even if it is it's pretty easy to punch a one man hole they are not stopping you.

As i said target selection killing an infantry squad with a crusader is always good - walking a knight into the middle of a maxed out CC squad is always bad. Is killing an infantry squad worth sacrificeing a knight absolutely not

But that about positioning and sane target selection it doesn't take away the general principle that maximiseing your damage output is advantageous


Ion Bulwark and Sanctuary aren't mutually exclusive, one's a relic and one is a WL trait so you can absolutely have a Knight with a 3++ to shooting and 4++ in combat for 2 CP. And I agree, MW spam can put a dent in them but very few armies that I know of can reliably generate enough MW every turn to outright destroy a Knight. And stratagem countering can be effective but I believe Knights are best run as a supplement to another army like AM and Ad Mech and by dedicating almost all your units to a ~400 point model, the other 1600 points get left almost untouched.

And with Slamguinius as a solid counter, that's one specific unit with a specific build for one specific army. If every Imperial army needs a Slamguinius or a Titanic unit to stand a chance against a Knight, then to me that doesn't speak well to their balancing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/02 15:53:23


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

4 base
+1 for DC on the charge
Strategem that gives it +1-3 for the phase
Strategem that lets it fight again at the end of the phase or strategem that it fight again when it dies so its fighting twice

So (4+1+(1-3))×2 =12-16

You wont use the 4 damage thunderhammer youll use reroll charges and no overwatch

so up your avg by 2 attacks and you get to my working

With the TH you up your damage by 25% but theres a chance you die to overwatch or a higher probability of failing charge

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/02 15:52:29


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

The smash captain isn’t the only guy like that. In my own crimson fist army I run a Primaris captain with the fist of vengeance. 5 attacks doing 3 damage each with no penalty to hit. Add Might of heroes, a lieutenant and the warlord trait that gives +1 attack on the charge and he goes straight through things. I’ve had him do 15 damage to a knight in a single round of attacks. I also bring a lot of rapid firing plasma guns and a lieutenant for rerolls. If knights come to me I table them.

Units like hellblasters are incredibly dangerous at close range, and half as nasty far away. They are pretty vulnerable to being shot at by avenger gatling cannons though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/02 15:59:51


 
   
Made in us
Damsel of the Lady




U02dah4 wrote:
4 base
+1 for DC on the charge
Strategem that gives it +1-3 for the phase
Strategem that lets it fight again at the end of the phase or strategem that it fight again when it dies so its fighting twice

So (4+1+(1-3))×2 =12-16

You wont use the 4 damage thunderhammer youll use reroll charges and no overwatch

so up your avg by 2 attacks and you get to my working

With the TH you up your damage by 25% but theres a chance you die to overwatch or a higher probability of failing charge


Slamguinus gets 4 damage from the Warlord Trait Artisan of War rather than the relic hammer usually. Otherwise looks right!
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Sorry i never take the extra damage as i tend to pair with AM for grand strategist and wouldnt take the hammer over angels wing ,veritas vitae, or the standard.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

So I played a couple of games with my Knights yesterday, used the following:

1x Gallant
1x Warden
1x Errant
1x Castellan

From what I've seen on here the general consensus is that the Avenger Cannon is the best weapon for a Knight, yet I was rather disappointed. I played Marines, and it barely accounted for 5 Marine kills over the course of 2 games. While it sounds like it'd be nice to mulch through vehicles, S6 doesn't help, and against MEQ statistically you're only looking at around 1-2 kills after saves, without taking cover or hit modifiers into account.

What's the appeal of the AGC over the other Knight weapons?
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Valkyrie wrote:
So I played a couple of games with my Knights yesterday, used the following:

1x Gallant
1x Warden
1x Errant
1x Castellan

From what I've seen on here the general consensus is that the Avenger Cannon is the best weapon for a Knight, yet I was rather disappointed. I played Marines, and it barely accounted for 5 Marine kills over the course of 2 games. While it sounds like it'd be nice to mulch through vehicles, S6 doesn't help, and against MEQ statistically you're only looking at around 1-2 kills after saves, without taking cover or hit modifiers into account.

What's the appeal of the AGC over the other Knight weapons?


Someone did the maths but I just recalculated it myself and you should be killing 3 and a half marines a turn with an AGC and the same of primaris. It does comparable damage to a RFBC against T8 and significantly better against GEU.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/02 20:44:46


 
   
Made in jp
Fresh-Faced New User





Slam Captains are the very reason I don't run pure Knights, he scares the poop out of me. Hide all of my AdMech infantry turn one, screen for deepstrike turn two. Watch my screen die but don't care because knights are alive and slam captain will eat my three knights worth of shooting/stomps if that's what it takes.

If he doesn't deepstrike turn two I will take those free rounds of shooting.

Sheep follow sheep, it's as simple as that! 
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






 Valkyrie wrote:
So I played a couple of games with my Knights yesterday, used the following:

1x Gallant
1x Warden
1x Errant
1x Castellan

From what I've seen on here the general consensus is that the Avenger Cannon is the best weapon for a Knight, yet I was rather disappointed. I played Marines, and it barely accounted for 5 Marine kills over the course of 2 games. While it sounds like it'd be nice to mulch through vehicles, S6 doesn't help, and against MEQ statistically you're only looking at around 1-2 kills after saves, without taking cover or hit modifiers into account.

What's the appeal of the AGC over the other Knight weapons?


Quick go through on statistical average vs MEQ(including Primaris due to Dam2): 12 shots with BS3+ = 9 hits, 9 hits wounding @ 3+ = 6 wounds, those 6 wounds are saved on a 5+ without cover so 4 dead marines. Cover saves 1 marine. -1 to hit only kills 2.666 marines out of cover and 2 in cover as well.

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

Marines are comparatively rare opponents these days MEQ was the std in 7th.

Avengers are not the best anti marine weapon however it sounds like most of your poor performance was bad dice or targetting if you were targetting in cover

As the above player expectancy is 4 dead per shot


.however more common imperialopponents

Guard/Tau /admech T3 7.5 dead squad
It will wound custodes on 3+

And will even do 4 dam to an unbuffed knight in a pinch. Its quite a versatile weapon

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/02 23:56:51


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Valkyrie wrote:
So I played a couple of games with my Knights yesterday, used the following:

1x Gallant
1x Warden
1x Errant
1x Castellan

From what I've seen on here the general consensus is that the Avenger Cannon is the best weapon for a Knight, yet I was rather disappointed. I played Marines, and it barely accounted for 5 Marine kills over the course of 2 games. While it sounds like it'd be nice to mulch through vehicles, S6 doesn't help, and against MEQ statistically you're only looking at around 1-2 kills after saves, without taking cover or hit modifiers into account.

What's the appeal of the AGC over the other Knight weapons?


Take the relic version and you'll never go back. It honestly sounds like your rolls were really cold and your opponent's saves were probably really hot. Space Marines get no invul saves, so those 3+ armor should have been a 5+ armor for shots from the AVG.

I personally don't like the Warden, though. I feel like the Crusader is a bit better for the extra dakka you get on one knight body.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Goldenemperor wrote:
I think consistency is what the Valiant does over the Castellan. Look at the Castellan weapons and then look at the Valiant Weapons. The Valiant will one shot anything that does not have an invuln, flat, the Castellan easily has that potential but can whiff, the reroll with the Harpoon is more reliable than d6 shots in this instance. The Flamer vs Plasma is that the Flamer removes a gate entirely (to hit gate) and has d6 more shots, but again range is sacrificed. I think both Knights are extraordinary and both are viable. Also the relic flamer isn't THAT good to give up Taranis haha.



1 shot weapons are EPITOME of non-consistent weapons. Anything that shoots once a turn is one hell of a swing&miss. Not to mention with raven strategem castellan becomes super reliable blowing up 2+ units a turn.

And one thing valiant does consistently is be out of range first turn with all but carapace weapons...

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in jp
Fresh-Faced New User





tneva82 wrote:
 Goldenemperor wrote:
I think consistency is what the Valiant does over the Castellan. Look at the Castellan weapons and then look at the Valiant Weapons. The Valiant will one shot anything that does not have an invuln, flat, the Castellan easily has that potential but can whiff, the reroll with the Harpoon is more reliable than d6 shots in this instance. The Flamer vs Plasma is that the Flamer removes a gate entirely (to hit gate) and has d6 more shots, but again range is sacrificed. I think both Knights are extraordinary and both are viable. Also the relic flamer isn't THAT good to give up Taranis haha.



1 shot weapons are EPITOME of non-consistent weapons. Anything that shoots once a turn is one hell of a swing&miss. Not to mention with raven strategem castellan becomes super reliable blowing up 2+ units a turn.

And one thing valiant does consistently is be out of range first turn with all but carapace weapons...


The consistency comes from rerolling failed hits, wounding literally everything in the game on 2s, opponent having zero save (unless you shoot at an invuln, anything 4+ is a bad plan), and just the flat 11-12 damage, very little variance there. One dice that's it.

Anyone who knows anything Warhammer is not about math, it's about Variance. The amount of variance in the Volcano lance is made up for by its range, which is why I still like the gun, it's just different. If the harpoon misses even with it's free reroll that's like rolling a two on a Volcano lance rerolling it into a one, hitting, and then failing to wound, it happens to all weapons at some point, the Castellan isn't some special snowflake that is just magically superior in every way to the Valiant. Does that cross your mind when considering the Volcano lance that you could roll a one and reroll it into a two on its shots miss with one or both and do no damage? Or hell roll triple twos on the damage roll doing a tiny 3pts of damage. I'm making your argument right back at you and it's a dumb argument to say the least. Guess what? Weapons whiff, it's a game of Variance, congratulations.

I just laugh when people discredit a unit they have either never used, only heard about being used, make up some stupid mathhammer for said unit, or used it once in a game. Castellan, Valiant, both a good choice used for different play styles.

Sheep follow sheep, it's as simple as that! 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





tneva82 wrote:


And one thing valiant does consistently is be out of range first turn with all but carapace weapons...


Well, that's just not true. Assuming you field the Valiant on its most forward deployment you've got a threat range 4'' into your enemies deployment zone. If you're house Raven (and for a Valiant you might as well be) then you're between 5 and 10'' into your enemies deployment zone, 7-12 of you've got landstrider too.

There is literally nowhere on a 6*4 that an opponent should be able to place there army that you can't reach out and cook something worth cooking with the conflagration cannon. Sure, you won't get to fire the harpoon turn one, but it's a gimmick compared to the flamer anyway.

And if your opponent has deployed more than ten inches back in their deployment zone, then congratulations, you have just strangled his early game manoeuvrability and essentially claimed 90% of the board.

For that matter, a house Raven unit that rolls a two or more on its advance stands a better than decent chance of being h able to fire the harpoon at something in turn one. It might be chaff, but you'll still get to use it

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/03 06:57:54


 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Goldenemperor wrote:
The consistency comes from rerolling failed hits, wounding literally everything in the game on 2s, opponent having zero save (unless you shoot at an invuln, anything 4+ is a bad plan), and just the flat 11-12 damage, very little variance there. One dice that's it.


Still that's very few dice rolls which can fail. And you get no rerolls to wound. With raven castellan is rerolling 1's on EVERYTHING.

The more dice you roll the less your variance is. The less dice you roll the swingier your result is.¨Then we even have to factor in often you don't even need 10 damage at once as less do. So weapon that does 10 damage more reliably(volcano cannon) is not only better by being more reliable but also because when valiant rolls badly it does 0, when castellan rolls even worse it still causes damage which often can be enough. Double benefit! Not only you need to roll lot worse in average to roll badly with volcano cannon that worse rolling can still be enough!

As the dark eldar player last week noted. Knights rolling relatively few dices gets really hurt by bad luck. His dark eldars don't CARE about bad luck as he's rolling tons of dices. The more dice you roll the less swingy your results are. That's just simple probabilities. Rerolls good, rolling more dice better, both( raven castellan) even better.


Anyone who knows anything Warhammer is not about math, it's about Variance. The amount of variance in the Volcano lance is made up for by its range, which is why I still like the gun, it's just different. If the harpoon misses even with it's free reroll that's like rolling a two on a Volcano lance rerolling it into a one, hitting, and then failing to wound, it happens to all weapons at some point, the Castellan isn't some special snowflake that is just magically superior in every way to the Valiant. Does that cross your mind when considering the Volcano lance that you could roll a one and reroll it into a two on its shots miss with one or both and do no damage? Or hell roll triple twos on the damage roll doing a tiny 3pts of damage. I'm making your argument right back at you and it's a dumb argument to say the least. Guess what? Weapons whiff, it's a game of Variance, congratulations.


Yes. But thanks to rerolls and rolling more dices odds of total whiff is less than castellan. I take more reliable one out of the two.

40k is game of variance and odds. That's why I prefer less swingy variants. I can rely on castellan doing it's job more reliably than valiant. That's just how probabilities work. If you don't understand how probabilities work fine. Your loss.

Castellan is what you take if you want reliable damage. Valiant is the one if you want to deal with -3 fliers or just gamble up on swingy go big or go home.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/07/03 07:03:10


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

To be fair, the castellan is swingy too. I played a game last night in which my lance got a 1 on its d6 for shots and missed on turn one. Turn two I rolled a 3 and it blew away an exocrine that was 48” away.

The flamer is actually not that swingy. 3d6 will converge around 10.5 hits pretty well. The harpoon isn’t so much swingy as binary - the target is dead or unhurt.

I still don’t like it, but because of its range not its reliability.
   
Made in sg
Longtime Dakkanaut





I don't know why there is still this ongoing debate between Valiant and Castellan. One is specialised for long range titan killing. Another is specialised more for mid range killing and handles hordes much better. Its like comparing apples to oranges.

I love both, and my IK list literally has a place for both in it. I bring both. Why not, since they complement each other! When you have a shadowsword you must kill, you will love your castellan. When you have elite or chaff infantry blocking your way to one or more objectives, you will love your Valiant.

btw, don't think just because its a melta gun, its wasted on infantry. When the Valiant is right up close, and the only targets in range are infantry, then I would still happily blast its 4 melta guns and spear harpoon into infantry. Dead is dead. Better being able to use my 4 melta guns and harpoon (even if its on infantry models), rather than not being able to shoot them at all.

I mentioned this before. But in a prior game with my friend, he brought two batallions of IG. We are talking about 6 squads and 4 heroes. It was IK vs IK. So, the knights were mostly busy killing each other. So, I can say that my Valiant was the one that accounted for 4 squads worth of IG, and 2 heroes. And the Valiant basically took care of two objectives because although it could only sit on one, its reach was such that there was no way my friend could get troops on the other objective. (Not without them being cooked to death by the confrag cannon).

And it did all this while also contributing to killing enemy knights as well. Did my Castellan do more? I really don't know. My Castellan basically focused on killing big knights, but it also needed help. Its not like my Castellan soloed my friend's knights alone. It couldn't have done it without the help of my Valiant and my Gallant.

Both are great I feel and quite distinct in their roles.
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran



Sweden

The Questoris knights are the middle of the field do it all Knights, but they don't really do THAT much dmg for what you pay for them, so i also agree on taking the Castellan for longer range armor killing, the Valiant for mid range cleansing and the Gallant for close range combat. It is in my view a good synergetic setup.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/03 09:45:22


 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Mandragola wrote:
To be fair, the castellan is swingy too. I played a game last night in which my lance got a 1 on its d6 for shots and missed on turn one. Turn two I rolled a 3 and it blew away an exocrine that was 48” away.

You did take Raven on your Castellan, didn't you?
If yes, then 1:36 to roll that 1 is just unlucky.
If no, then your bad - Raven on Castellan is the one auto pick in the codex.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

MarkM wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
To be fair, the castellan is swingy too. I played a game last night in which my lance got a 1 on its d6 for shots and missed on turn one. Turn two I rolled a 3 and it blew away an exocrine that was 48” away.

You did take Raven on your Castellan, didn't you?
If yes, then 1:36 to roll that 1 is just unlucky.
If no, then your bad - Raven on Castellan is the one auto pick in the codex.

Raven Castellans are great solo knights, but my army is Tanaris and I'm fine with that. My castellan would certainly hit harder with that stratagem but I'm happy with the extra ~20 wounds my army has, thanks to the Tanaris trait. I'd have used a CP to reroll the 1 for the volcano lance, but had already used it to reroll to hit with a missile - which was a waste.

I used landstrider last night for the first time, in a game vs nids/GSK. That’s a truly awesome warlord trait. I put it on one of my wardens and stuck him at the front of my deployment zone (using the kind of chevron-shaped set up with long board edges, so he was 15” on). By the end of my first turn he was at the enemy board edge, locked in combat with a big unit of hive guard and some rippers that were holding an objective.

My opponent brought in his 20 GSK purestrains in his own deployment zone to deal with the problem, but could only bring the knight down to 8 wounds (including 5 wounds done by a smite).

The army does seriously chew through CPs. I had 9, but 8 were gone by the end of turn 1, and the last was used in turn 2 so my charging Warden could move at full speed to escape from cc with 20 stealers. I used one for to have endless fury on one of my wardens, one for landstrider on the other one, one to reroll an advance roll of a 1 for that knight (worth it, got a 5), two to fire a shieldbreaker missile at a neurothrope, one to reroll when it missed (I hit and did 1 wound…) and 2 for full tilt.

In hindsight the shieldbreaker missile stratagem is only a good idea if you really need to, and have a good chance of killing your target. A neurothrope has 5 wounds so really I threw away 3 CPs for not a great chance to kill it, and I didn’t really need to. But the full tilt charge on turn one took 6 hive guard out of the game, so that was definitely worth 3 CPs (or 4, including buying the warlord trait in the first place).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/03 10:54:05


 
   
Made in us
Freaky Flayed One





How are you finding the Castellan generally? EDIT: Particularly the Raven Castellan, as I'm considering Raven Knights.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/03 14:10:38


 
   
Made in jp
Fresh-Faced New User





Eldenfirefly wrote:
I don't know why there is still this ongoing debate between Valiant and Castellan. One is specialised for long range titan killing. Another is specialised more for mid range killing and handles hordes much better. Its like comparing apples to oranges.

I love both, and my IK list literally has a place for both in it. I bring both. Why not, since they complement each other! When you have a shadowsword you must kill, you will love your castellan. When you have elite or chaff infantry blocking your way to one or more objectives, you will love your Valiant.

btw, don't think just because its a melta gun, its wasted on infantry. When the Valiant is right up close, and the only targets in range are infantry, then I would still happily blast its 4 melta guns and spear harpoon into infantry. Dead is dead. Better being able to use my 4 melta guns and harpoon (even if its on infantry models), rather than not being able to shoot them at all.

I mentioned this before. But in a prior game with my friend, he brought two batallions of IG. We are talking about 6 squads and 4 heroes. It was IK vs IK. So, the knights were mostly busy killing each other. So, I can say that my Valiant was the one that accounted for 4 squads worth of IG, and 2 heroes. And the Valiant basically took care of two objectives because although it could only sit on one, its reach was such that there was no way my friend could get troops on the other objective. (Not without them being cooked to death by the confrag cannon).

And it did all this while also contributing to killing enemy knights as well. Did my Castellan do more? I really don't know. My Castellan basically focused on killing big knights, but it also needed help. Its not like my Castellan soloed my friend's knights alone. It couldn't have done it without the help of my Valiant and my Gallant.

Both are great I feel and quite distinct in their roles.


I don't know what the debate is either. People too close minded or too inexperienced in the game want to claim that the Dominus they bought is so superior to the other Dominus. They are both excellent choices and I have used both in different style lists, each with success and failure.

Sheep follow sheep, it's as simple as that! 
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





The Eternity Gate

 Drachii wrote:
How are you finding the Castellan generally? EDIT: Particularly the Raven Castellan, as I'm considering Raven Knights,


I find it awesome. So much firepower on a durable platform. Best is that it works equally well as a solo detachment as it does in a full knights list.

01001000 01100001 01101001 01101100 00100000 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01001110 01100101 01100011 01110010 01101111 01101110 00100000 01101111 01110110 01100101 01110010 01101100 01101111 01110010 01100100 01110011 00100001  
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

 Drachii wrote:
How are you finding the Castellan generally? EDIT: Particularly the Raven Castellan, as I'm considering Raven Knights,
I’m finding the Castellan way nastier than other knights at range. It’s a really serious upgrade from a crusader, for example.

A volcano lance does an average of 11.66 wounds to a T7 vehicle. A battlecannon does 4.15, an avenger does 3.55 and a thermal cannon up close does 6.8, or 8.7 within 18”. The VL has a range of 80”.

And on the other arm you have Cawl’s Wrath, which is an epic gun. On normal mode it’s basically a RFBC with an ap of -4, but overcharged it does 50% more damage, or even better against T8. And then you have 4 melta guns and the carapace weapons, which are really unpleasant.

A crusader with RFBC and gatling is 485. The Castellan comes in around 600 depending on weapons choice – so about 22% more expensive. It does more than double the damage to tough targets even before considering its secondary weapons.

Last night my Castellan killed an exocrine with is volcano lance. Two wounding hits did 12 damage, which is average and not particularly lucky. I overcharged Cawl’s wrath and deleted 4 hive guards at the same time. That’s over 400 points worth of damage while standing in its own deployment zone on an objective. I only got 3 shots from the VL and 5 from CW – it could have been even nastier, and a Raven one using the stratagem might have been.

So yeah, Castellans are seriously nasty things. The only thing I’d suggest is maybe playing as Krast rather than Raven, so you could bring two of them. Cawl’s Wrath on one and the Krast relic on the other. Ion Bulwark and the Krast warlord trait (reroll 1s to hit). No need to spend CPs during the game with that set up. That set up could reasonably expect to knock out 4 heavy tanks a turn with just its primary weapons.

If you’re adding one knight to an existing army then it should definitely be a Raven Castellan. Actually the Raven house tradition doesn’t do much for it, so I think you’d be better off picking one of the other mechanicus houses if you’re doing a full lance. You definitely want Cawl’s Wrath though, so not an imperial (or renegade) house.
 Goldenemperor wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
I don't know why there is still this ongoing debate between Valiant and Castellan. One is specialised for long range titan killing. Another is specialised more for mid range killing and handles hordes much better. Its like comparing apples to oranges.[/snip]

Both are great I feel and quite distinct in their roles.


I don't know what the debate is either. People too close minded or too inexperienced in the game want to claim that the Dominus they bought is so superior to the other Dominus. They are both excellent choices and I have used both in different style lists, each with success and failure.

Those of us who don't like the Valiant have given our reasons why. We haven't resorted to personal insults against people who do like them. They may suit some playstyles better than others. Initial tournament results suggest that Castellans are turning up on top tables quite a lot, and that Valiants don't seem to be, but it's very early days - and tournament results aren't everything anyway.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps




Phoenix, AZ, USA

Landstrider is great not only for the +2” movement to the Knight with the trait, but also the +2” movement to the friendly Household units within 6” of the Knight with the trait. You can sprint a Gallant and a gaggle of Glaives across the table.

SJ

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Mandragola wrote:


If you’re adding one knight to an existing army then it should definitely be a Raven Castellan. Actually the Raven house tradition doesn’t do much for it, so I think you’d be better off picking one of the other mechanicus houses if you’re doing a full lance. You definitely want Cawl’s Wrath though, so not an imperial (or renegade) house.


My vote would be Vulker. You'd be surprised how useful it is, because you can still do all the awesome things A Castellan can do, and sometimes you're rerolling one's


My two cents on running him with GK to give them the anti tank thru so sorely need
   
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Mr. Funktastic wrote:

Ion Bulwark and Sanctuary aren't mutually exclusive, one's a relic and one is a WL trait so you can absolutely have a Knight with a 3++ to shooting and 4++ in combat for 2 CP. .


Ion bulwark is shooting only, sorry, cant do that :(



 
   
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Mr. Funktastic wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
Hard hitting CC units are the best e.g. Smash CPT most knights don't get an invul in CC and a BA smash CPT can mostly take a single knight on its own. If they take Sanctuary they are not takeing Ion bulwalk.so your shooting is going to be more effective. A 4++ will still let a lot of hits through in CC.

A BA CPT 116pt strategemed up makes 12-16 Attacks
Hitting 3's rerolling 1's wounding 3's 3 damage
Avg
11Damage vs 4++
18 vs no inv

Mortal W spam is an obvious counter

Strategem Countering is also potentially viable depending on the list a pure knights list is very CP tight so a calidous can potential exhaust it quickly agents of vecht is also an answer

@ mendragola
Unless the knight is completely surrounded by infantry a smash CPT will walk through and even if it is it's pretty easy to punch a one man hole they are not stopping you.

As i said target selection killing an infantry squad with a crusader is always good - walking a knight into the middle of a maxed out CC squad is always bad. Is killing an infantry squad worth sacrificeing a knight absolutely not

But that about positioning and sane target selection it doesn't take away the general principle that maximiseing your damage output is advantageous


Ion Bulwark and Sanctuary aren't mutually exclusive, one's a relic and one is a WL trait so you can absolutely have a Knight with a 3++ to shooting and 4++ in combat for 2 CP. And I agree, MW spam can put a dent in them but very few armies that I know of can reliably generate enough MW every turn to outright destroy a Knight. And stratagem countering can be effective but I believe Knights are best run as a supplement to another army like AM and Ad Mech and by dedicating almost all your units to a ~400 point model, the other 1600 points get left almost untouched.

And with Slamguinius as a solid counter, that's one specific unit with a specific build for one specific army. If every Imperial army needs a Slamguinius or a Titanic unit to stand a chance against a Knight, then to me that doesn't speak well to their balancing.

Captain slam is like 160 points and has a good chance to kill a knight with stratagems - which is like min 360 and up to 600 points....Uhhh - it's pretty clear here which unit is overpowered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 easysauce wrote:
Mr. Funktastic wrote:

Ion Bulwark and Sanctuary aren't mutually exclusive, one's a relic and one is a WL trait so you can absolutely have a Knight with a 3++ to shooting and 4++ in combat for 2 CP. .


Ion bulwark is shooting only, sorry, cant do that :(



Sanctuary ion shields in CC. It works with the rotate stratagem. You can have a 3++ to shooting and a 4++ to cc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Landstrider is great not only for the +2” movement to the Knight with the trait, but also the +2” movement to the friendly Household units within 6” of the Knight with the trait. You can sprint a Gallant and a gaggle of Glaives across the table.

SJ

Combine with house raven and Gman for LOLs.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/03 16:52:39


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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