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ballzonya wrote:
Is the set that good of a deal? Seems too good to be true it's worth basically a little more then one knight but comes with 2 plus rules and terrain. Can I build a gallient and a castellan in that set?

It is a really good deal. You can definitely build a Gallant and a Crusader (not a Castellan). The limiting parts are the Avenger Gatling Cannon so you can only build 1 of a Warden or Crsuader (but not both) and the Gauntlet (so you can only build 1 Gallant).

superwill wrote:
Anyone tried running a proxy of Canis Rex in their games? Seems like the freeblade thing is generally worse (unless you’re already taking a bunch of other knights) than being in a house, but his access to Sally Forth, 2+ WS and BS and ability to Death Grip seem like he could be decent? I know most people have pegged him as just for casual games, but wondering whether anyone has actually tried him or has run any proper analysis on him or thought about particular uses?

I’ve been proxying a Perceptor with a Dominatus Helm to buff my Helverins, but not Canis Rex. It might be a minority opinion, but I’m just not a fan of the Freeblade rules. As a speed gamer, I want baked in rules I can rely on, not random effects I have to remember for just that one unit. However, on paper Canis Rex looks like a beast!

SJ

Alright here’s my first full all knights list. I think it’s reasonably compative that can do well in tournaments.

++ Super-Heavy Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [54 PL, 1058pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Exalted Court: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait (-1CP)

Heirlooms of the Household: Heirlooms of the Household: 2 Extra Heirlooms (-3CP)

Household Choice: House Krast, Questor Mechanicus

+ Lord of War +

Armiger Helverins [9 PL, 174pts]
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy stubber

Knight Crusader [25 PL, 530pts]: Heavy stubber, Heirloom: Endless Fury, Stormspear rocket pod, Warlord Trait (Krast): First Knight
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Character: Exalted Court Member
. Rapid-fire battle cannon w/ heavy stubber: Heavy stubber, Rapid-fire battle cannon

Knight Gallant [20 PL, 354pts]: Character, Heavy stubber, Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion, Reaper chainsword, Thunderstrike gauntlet

++ Super-Heavy Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [48 PL, 941pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Household Choice: House Raven, Questor Mechanicus

+ Lord of War +

Armiger Helverins [9 PL, 174pts]
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy stubber

Armiger Helverins [9 PL, 174pts]
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy stubber

Knight Castellan [30 PL, 593pts]: Heirloom: Cawl's Wrath, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
. Character: Warlord
. One Siegebreaker Cannon & Four Shieldbreaker Missiles: 4x Shieldbreaker Missile, Twin Siegebreaker Cannon

++ Total: [102 PL, 1999pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

Ok so now on to the explanations of how the army works. The only true set trait and relic is the bulwark and wrath for the castellan, but this will be
the most common setup during a tournament. Re-roll 1s to hit on a crusador is very strong, so that will be a common extra trait. However. I might swap that out for landstrider (+2 to your run and charge moves) on the crusader against gunline armies like tau. I don’t think i’ll every use both, since that leaves me at 3 starting CP, and I pretty much have to use full-tilt on the crusader when I use landstrider. Sainted is nice for the crusader because it helps protect aginst both low AP dakka, and high AP close combat attacks, something’s it should see a lot of. Endless fury is plug in play, especially with the Krast warlord trait. Also keep in mind the crusader is actually quite scary in close combat, as 12 re-roll hits battle cannon shots puts out a lot of hurt. You can even back out and shoot next turn (as well as charge).Just be carful what you charge with it (as its pretty fragile in CC). Hevlerins are there for utility and dark endear hunting.

5 CP seems to low. I would drop the Armour relic to go up to 7.

 Ordana wrote:
5 CP seems to low. I would drop the Armour relic to go up to 7.

I’m going to have to disagree with you here. 2 CP is a steep cost, but I think you’re underestimating the usefulness of relic. It naturally increase the gallents save roll against range weapons of AP 0-AP 2 and melee attack’s of AP 0-AP 4. This is a good range of AP to be effictive against, as the gallent will often be situations which expose him to these types of attacks. He’ll often be in rapid fire range of your opponents basic guns, and he’ll
frequently be in CC where the relic is almost always useful. Additionally I plan to rotate mainly on the Crusader, as I really want to keep it alive for as long as possible. At this point all of my big knights surviblity has been buffed making it hard for my opponent to find a good target to shoot at. Even the fact that the relic has no effect on range guns with an AP 3+ can be seen as a small benifit for the following reason. Having your oppenent fire his AP +3 weapons at your distraction carifex is a good thing, even if they did it to nullify the Relic. Simple put the relic helps protects the Gallent and better allows it to draw fire from your oppenents High AP guns, worth the 2 CP in my opinion.

The AoSI relic is an absolute house. Killing a 2+ Knight, especially in melee combat, is a total pain in the ass and well worth even 2 CP.

I do wonder, though, if Landstrider on the Gallant would be stronger than First Knight on the Crusader. Landstrider is just such a clutch trait on your Gallant.

meleti wrote:
The AoSI relic is an absolute house. Killing a 2+ Knight, especially in melee combat, is a total pain in the ass and well worth even 2 CP.

I do wonder, though, if Landstrider on the Gallant would be stronger than First Knight on the Crusader. Landstrider is just such a clutch trait on your Gallant.

My big problem with landstrider is that offten need the 2 CP cost full-tilt to get full value. Luckily since these are extra warlord traits I can switch them up based on matchup, so in some games I will be following your advice and use landstrider. (I could even drop sainted armor if I see a list with a lot high AP ranged weapons). That’s one reason I like this list, you sort of have a “side-board” of warlord traits and relics. Heck I might even swap the +atk warlord trait onto the Gallent in certain matchups.

The 3 Castellan idea got me tinkerin. Which List do you think is more competitive?

Super Heavy Detachment House Raven :

604 – Knight Castellan, Warlord: Ion Bulwark and Cawls Wrath
604 – Knight Castellan, Master of the Trial, Armor of the Sainted Ion
593 – Knight Castellan

Adeptus Mechanicus Battalion:

47 – Enginseer
47 – Enginseer
35 – Skitarii Rangers
35 – Skitarii Rangers
35 – Skitarii Rangers

2000 points - 14 CP – 2 CP (Heirloom and Exalted Court)

or

Super Heavy Detachment House Raven :

604 – Knight Castellan, Ion Bulwark and Cawls Wrath
515 – Knight Crusader, RFBC and Twin Icarus, Armor of the Sainted Ion, Master of the Trial
501 – Knight Crusader, RFBC and Ironstorm Missile Pod, Endless Fury

Astra Millitarum Battalion:

180 – 2 Company Commanders, 3 Infantry Squads (Warlord, Grand Strategist, Kurov's Aquilla)

Adeptus Mechanicus Battalion:

199 – 2 x Enginseer, 3 x Rangers

1999 points - 19 CP – 7 CP (Free Relic on Castellan, 3 for Heirlooms, 3 for Exalted Court, 1 for Kurov's Aquilla)

 Ebon wrote:
The 3 Castellan idea got me tinkerin. Which List do you think is more competitive?

Super Heavy Detachment House Raven :

604 – Knight Castellan, Warlord: Ion Bulwark and Cawls Wrath
604 – Knight Castellan, Master of the Trial, Armor of the Sainted Ion
593 – Knight Castellan

Adeptus Mechanicus Battalion:

47 – Enginseer
47 – Enginseer
35 – Skitarii Rangers
35 – Skitarii Rangers
35 – Skitarii Rangers

2000 points - 14 CP – 2 CP (Heirloom and Exalted Court)

or

Super Heavy Detachment House Raven :

604 – Knight Castellan, Ion Bulwark and Cawls Wrath
515 – Knight Crusader, RFBC and Twin Icarus, Armor of the Sainted Ion, Master of the Trial
501 – Knight Crusader, RFBC and Ironstorm Missile Pod, Endless Fury

Astra Millitarum Battalion:

180 – 2 Company Commanders, 3 Infantry Squads (Warlord, Grand Strategist, Kurov's Aquilla)

Adeptus Mechanicus Battalion:

199 – 2 x Enginseer, 3 x Rangers

1999 points - 19 CP – 7 CP (Free Relic on Castellan, 3 for Heirlooms, 3 for Exalted Court, 1 for Kurov's Aquilla)

The first list is interesting, but, I almost wonder if it’d be more worth running 2 Castallen and 1 Crusader, as opposed to 3 Castallen.

The 2nd list I’m not overly eager on. The Admech battalion feels pointless and I’d much rather drop the 5 CP and go in another direction with the 200 points. You also wouldn’t be able to get the 3 relics on the Knights, as you’d be limited to only having access to the stratagem for Knight relics due to your Warlord being the Commander.

The triple Castellan list was ETC no?
It works there because you can avoid Hordes, which are a horrible matchup that you will never get through.
In general tournament play your praying the entire time that you don't get paired against anything resembling a horde.

For the second list I would drop the Admech and add more Guard, stuff like Mortar teams.

 Ordana wrote:
The triple Castellan list was ETC no?
It works there because you can avoid Hordes, which are a horrible matchup that you will never get through.
In general tournament play your praying the entire time that you don't get paired against anything resembling a horde.

For the second list I would drop the Admech and add more Guard, stuff like Mortar teams.

This. I'd never take three Castellans. Two and a Valiant, maybe... but not really. No hope whatsoever vs hordes.

That said, if you wanted to run two Castellans then Krast is the way to go. Their relic is great on a Castellan or Crusader. Normally the second (and/or third) Castellan is pretty weak because it doesn't have Cawl's Wrath, but the Krast relic makes up for this.

Fielding more than one Castellan (and indeed, even a single one) will tend to result in quite binary games. They will murder big tanks, especially those without invulnerable saves, but lose badly to numerous enemies. I'm probably only going to run mine at games of 2k and above, so that I can still run 3 other big knights. I might try it with three wardens though.

One other point for the relic is that it turns its user into a character, a nice bonus as it allows the knight to heroically intervene.

Which leads me to a important point, remember to heroically intervene on your opponents turns! I keep hearing that knights are bad at scoring objectives, but heroic intervention helps them a lot against this. Imagine the following scenario; your Gallant has just charged a mob of 40 fearless cultist on a foward objective, he kills a good chunk, and put himself partially on top of the objective. The cowardly cultist fall back during your opponents turn, but (thinking themselves cleaver) make sure to stay within 3” of the objective. They will keep it for themselves, and avoid the Titan’s fury. Luckily, the fools forgot about heroic intervention. Being 3” or less away from of the objective means being 3” or less away from Gallant, meaning that those cultist will be taking quite a few stomps. In essence heroic inverention will punish your opponent for attempting to take your objective from under your knights, making it a valuable skill to have.

Just a quick question - if you have a super heavy detachment with three titanic knights of different houses, do you lose access to anything aside from their traditions?

Do they retain 6CP for a full lance?
Can they still access their household specific relics?
Can they still use their household specific strategems?
Can they select their household specific warlord trait?
Can mechanicus knights still use mechanicus specific stratagems?

If any/all of these are OK, there could be a lot of merit in running, say, a Raven castellan (for the strat), krast castellan (for the mark) and terryn gallant for fight twice.

 DoomMouse wrote:
Just a quick question - if you have a super heavy detachment with three titanic knights of different houses, do you lose access to anything aside from their traditions?

Do they retain 6CP for a full lance?
Can they still access their household specific relics?
Can they still use their household specific strategems?
Can they select their household specific warlord trait?
Can mechanicus knights still use mechanicus specific stratagems?

If any/all of these are OK, there could be a lot of merit in running, say, a Raven castellan (for the strat), krast castellan (for the mark) and terryn gallant for fight twice.

Yes to all of those.

You cannot mix Houses in a detachment as per page 106.

If your army is Battle-forged, all units in an
IMPERIAL KNIGHTS Super-heavy Detachment
(other than FREEBLADE units) must be from
the same Household,

Rapid fire battlecannon or thermal cannon? Which one on the crusader is best?

ballzonya wrote:
Rapid fire battlecannon or thermal cannon? Which one on the crusader is best?

TC all day. It's cheaper and much better vs tanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Just a quick question - if you have a super heavy detachment with three titanic knights of different houses, do you lose access to anything aside from their traditions?

Do they retain 6CP for a full lance?
Can they still access their household specific relics?
Can they still use their household specific strategems?
Can they select their household specific warlord trait?
Can mechanicus knights still use mechanicus specific stratagems?

If any/all of these are OK, there could be a lot of merit in running, say, a Raven castellan (for the strat), krast castellan (for the mark) and terryn gallant for fight twice.

You could...but the house traits are too good to pass up IMO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

superwill wrote:
Anyone tried running a proxy of Canis Rex in their games? Seems like the freeblade thing is generally worse (unless you’re already taking a bunch of other knights) than being in a house, but his access to Sally Forth, 2+ WS and BS and ability to Death Grip seem like he could be decent? I know most people have pegged him as just for casual games, but wondering whether anyone has actually tried him or has run any proper analysis on him or thought about particular uses?

I’ve been proxying a Perceptor with a Dominatus Helm to buff my Helverins, but not Canis Rex. It might be a minority opinion, but I’m just not a fan of the Freeblade rules. As a speed gamer, I want baked in rules I can rely on, not random effects I have to remember for just that one unit. However, on paper Canis Rex looks like a beast!

SJ

I am with you - the free-blade rules are kinda bad. Then you consider you lose stratagem support and they are just garbage.

Canis Rex seems cool - but can't take carapace weapon...so that sucks - can't really get much out of his 2+ bs.

Ooh. That has possibilities then... I think I prefer the unique strats and relics to the household abilities. With a two-battalion IG command farm plus three big knights you could activate unique strats each turn plus have two warlord traits and relics.

I quite like the idea of a fight-again terryn gallant with landstrider, a Raven castellan with 4++ and cawls wrath and a krast crusader with the headsman's mark.

Might have to look through the stratagems of the weaker houses again to see if there are any other gems to cherry pick

Weirdly, you cannot take a lance with knights from different houses. They all have to be from the same house - though you are allowed freeblades.

That isn’t the case for most armies but it does apply to knights, for some reason.

I disagree on the freeblades they are not overpowered but they have merits especially on a galent errant or warglaive

1) you can control burdens a freeblade near an ld 10 inquisitor needs to role 9- with exiled in shame 10- and you can always command reroll

2) Canis rex is strong as a 4th knight which cant take relics (though not a first choice)

3) It lets one CC knight in a questor mechanicus detatchment take helm of the nameless warrior reducing the impact of haunted by failiur.

4) Sure it denies you use of a household strategem and trait but i can make a warglaive a freeblade and I probably wouldnt waste CP on it anyway. (In addition in a tarranis list its not getting as much from the household trait). The rest of the strats still target it.

5)As to speed well knight heavy list are amongst the fastest to play sure it adds complexity but your still one of the fastest lists

6) finnaly qualities legendary hero and peerless warrior are solid indominatable is if you dont have an inquisitor. Mysterious guardian is good if not a character say a warglaive. The other two are ok. I would always roll for 2 and reroll a double.

Mandragola wrote:
Weirdly, you cannot take a lance with knights from different houses. They all have to be from the same house - though you are allowed freeblades.

That isn’t the case for most armies but it does apply to knights, for some reason.

Damn yes your actually right. You can't mix Houses in a detachment.

If your army is Battle-forged, all units in an
IMPERIAL KNIGHTS Super-heavy Detachment
(other than FREEBLADE units) must be from
the same Household,

page 106.

Well, so much for that idea.

ballzonya wrote:
Rapid fire battlecannon or thermal cannon? Which one on the crusader is best?

Probably RFBC. Twice the RoF and twice the range. Thermal Cannon only edges out the RFBC against large targets at close range (and knights have plenty of other tools to crack large targets). As soon as you start facing anything with an invulnerable save, the AP-4 of the Thermal Cannon becomes wasted.

With Knights, you will pretty much always be outnumbered so concentration and projection of force is a big deal. Never underestimate the value of being able to reach out and bombard a target from 72" away.

I'm thinking the Crusader is money as a stand-alone Knight in an Imperial soup type list. It has less firepower than the Castellan, but it only costs 1cp to Rotate Ion Shields instead of 3, and it costs over 100 points less. It really depends on what it is supporting, and generally if you have a Castellan available, use that. But it is at least worth considering. Also, the Ironstorm Missile Pod is fun and great for blasting targets that are out of LOS, plus it is very cheap.

 Karhedron wrote:

ballzonya wrote:
Rapid fire battlecannon or thermal cannon? Which one on the crusader is best?

Probably RFBC. Twice the RoF and twice the range. Thermal Cannon only edges out the RFBC against large targets at close range (and knights have plenty of other tools to crack large targets). As soon as you start facing anything with an invulnerable save, the AP-4 of the Thermal Cannon becomes wasted.

With Knights, you will pretty much always be outnumbered so concentration and projection of force is a big deal. Never underestimate the value of being able to reach out and bombard a target from 72" away.

Ironically, that’s why I am liking the Ironstorm over the Stormspear, for the 72” no-LoS anti-Infantry. Sure, the Stormspear has great value against heavier targets, but being able to clear screens from afar is almost a must when throwing a Thunder Ball Gallant lance turn 1.

SJ

I think TC and ironstorm pod is better overall than a RFBC, and costs quite a bit less.

The RFBC is better if you've already got carapace weapons.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I'm thinking the Crusader is money as a stand-alone Knight in an Imperial soup type list. It has less firepower than the Castellan, but it only costs 1cp to Rotate Ion Shields instead of 3, and it costs over 100 points less. It really depends on what it is supporting, and generally if you have a Castellan available, use that. But it is at least worth considering. Also, the Ironstorm Missile Pod is fun and great for blasting targets that are out of LOS, plus it is very cheap.

I figure it would depend on the list. Some lists need that firepower only a castellan brings, while others would need a bit more of an all-rounder, which the crusader does better.

For example as IG and admech the kind of lists I run tend to have lots of infantry and tons of low-mid strength firepower Suh as lasguns, plasma, radcarbines, plasma callivers, etc. For me the Castellan is a natural choice because it fills a gap I need covered. If I was running something with way more high damage firepower, like neutron onagers, I'd be more tempted to take a crusader as my all rounder then specialize from there.

Well, in the event i'm going to this weekend, i'm running 1 Crusader with TC and Ironstorm, and 1 with RFBC and Icarus (would have been another Ironstorm, but, you don't get enough bits in a Renegade box to make more than 1 missile launcher :( :( and didn't have the spare points anyway for a Stormspear)

Was tempted to run them both with TC, but, i think the extra rate of fire at times will come in handy when dealing with larger squads.

Will let you know how i get on!

Good luck Kdash.

A Crusader with TC and ironstorm pod is a great all-rounder. Honestly so is one with a RFBC. Ultimately I think they are both worth what they cost, and either is good. I think the RFBC is significantly better in a meta full of hordes and invulnerable saves, but it also costs quite a lot more. The extra stubber it comes with is sort of relevant against hordes too, though it’s unlikely to be the difference between winning and losing.

Basically, the extra 28 points you pay for a RFBC and stubber is worth it, but it’s a big enough amount of points that you might be able to buy something else useful with it instead. If you want dakka there might be a way to get more of it somewhere else.

I'm not a massive fan of the twin icarus but it's ok. If you're up against Custodes bikers it might even be worth going for the relic one, as it's almost as good against them as an avenger gatling cannon, averaging 3.33 wounds instead of 4 (so probably killing one guy). It's great against DE too, so probably worth having in your list.

Mandragola wrote:
Good luck Kdash.

A Crusader with TC and ironstorm pod is a great all-rounder. Honestly so is one with a RFBC. Ultimately I think they are both worth what they cost, and either is good. I think the RFBC is significantly better in a meta full of hordes and invulnerable saves, but it also costs quite a lot more. The extra stubber it comes with is sort of relevant against hordes too, though it’s unlikely to be the difference between winning and losing.

Basically, the extra 28 points you pay for a RFBC and stubber is worth it, but it’s a big enough amount of points that you might be able to buy something else useful with it instead. If you want dakka there might be a way to get more of it somewhere else.

I'm not a massive fan of the twin icarus but it's ok. If you're up against Custodes bikers it might even be worth going for the relic one, as it's almost as good against them as an avenger gatling cannon, averaging 3.33 wounds instead of 4 (so probably killing one guy). It's great against DE too, so probably worth having in your list.

Thanks!

The Icarus is one of those things where I didn’t have the bitz for another pod, and had some spare points that I didn’t want to throw into another squad of Guardsmen (though, Guardsmen would probably have been the better choice).

Weapons that get a +1 to hit vs fly are, imo, really good right now due to the over abundance of units with the fly keyword, but, only having 1 isn’t really that impactful. Won’t be using the relic version, as I took the choice of declaring my WL, trait and relic on my list, and the Icarus is on my WL with relic. (I could likely change it game to game, but it’d throw up issues when comparing to my submitted list and I don’t see it being that impactful anyway).

Something that definitely needs to be rectified going forward though. Will likely be – if I don’t take Ironstorm pods, I won’t take anything. But, we’ll see how things go.

Kdash wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Good luck Kdash.

A Crusader with TC and ironstorm pod is a great all-rounder. Honestly so is one with a RFBC. Ultimately I think they are both worth what they cost, and either is good. I think the RFBC is significantly better in a meta full of hordes and invulnerable saves, but it also costs quite a lot more. The extra stubber it comes with is sort of relevant against hordes too, though it’s unlikely to be the difference between winning and losing.

Basically, the extra 28 points you pay for a RFBC and stubber is worth it, but it’s a big enough amount of points that you might be able to buy something else useful with it instead. If you want dakka there might be a way to get more of it somewhere else.

I'm not a massive fan of the twin icarus but it's ok. If you're up against Custodes bikers it might even be worth going for the relic one, as it's almost as good against them as an avenger gatling cannon, averaging 3.33 wounds instead of 4 (so probably killing one guy). It's great against DE too, so probably worth having in your list.

Thanks!

The Icarus is one of those things where I didn’t have the bitz for another pod, and had some spare points that I didn’t want to throw into another squad of Guardsmen (though, Guardsmen would probably have been the better choice).

Weapons that get a +1 to hit vs fly are, imo, really good right now due to the over abundance of units with the fly keyword, but, only having 1 isn’t really that impactful. Won’t be using the relic version, as I took the choice of declaring my WL, trait and relic on my list, and the Icarus is on my WL with relic. (I could likely change it game to game, but it’d throw up issues when comparing to my submitted list and I don’t see it being that impactful anyway).

Something that definitely needs to be rectified going forward though. Will likely be – if I don’t take Ironstorm pods, I won’t take anything. But, we’ll see how things go.

I think that's fine. The relic icarus gun is far from essential. I've never used icarus guns - let alone a relic one - but I thought I'd run the numbers. I've sometimes drawn up lists where icarus cannons would be a good option, though my two sets are still on their sprues.

I glued on the front of a stormspear pod to one of my carapace launchers and now can't get it off! Annoying, as now I can only have one ironstorm.

The Icarus Autocannon mount makes a wonderful conversation point for an “Ironstorm” auto-mortar. I like to use a SM Missile Launcher with an ammo case on the mount, seems more “correct” than a direct-fire missile pod.

SJ