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 Ideasweasel wrote:
Kdash,

Did you get bored of knights or just giving your other armies a try?

I brought them originally because they were cool, on offer via the Renegade boxes and because they could be put into some of my armies relatively easily. (I was following the idea of a Raven Guard successor that retained close ties with Kiavahr and its forges and houses.

That said, I can field them solo and I do enjoy doing so from time to time. I keep wanting to seriously test out a Preceptor and 2 Warglaives, but, I need to get around to actually buying those models.

I am debating getting a Knight Porphyrion to run with some Custodes in true golden splendor. That's obviously a big investment. How does the community feel about them lately?

Audustum wrote:
I am debating getting a Knight Porphyrion to run with some Custodes in true golden splendor. That's obviously a big investment. How does the community feel about them lately?

The Porphy is a cool model, that I don't think is a 100% top competitive unit. There are too many things that hard counter him. If you take him to smaller local tournaments I think he'll do fine, but against top armies he will die.

If you do use him, the entire rest of your army must focus on anti-horde. Like, I'm considering a Guard/Knights list that's a Porphy, plus a full brigade, containing 3 punisher tank commanders and mortars.

 Horst wrote:

Audustum wrote:
I am debating getting a Knight Porphyrion to run with some Custodes in true golden splendor. That's obviously a big investment. How does the community feel about them lately?

The Porphy is a cool model, that I don't think is a 100% top competitive unit. There are too many things that hard counter him. If you take him to smaller local tournaments I think he'll do fine, but against top armies he will die.

If you do use him, the entire rest of your army must focus on anti-horde. Like, I'm considering a Guard/Knights list that's a Porphy, plus a full brigade, containing 3 punisher tank commanders and mortars.

Interesting. So, I was planning to bring an Outrider of 10 Jetbikes with him. They'd all have Hurricane Bolters so 60/120 shots depending on range.

@horst. I really need to test out Mortan knights. -2/3 to hit is the most frustrating encounter.

Let us know when you get some games in with your Mortan list how it functions.

Mathhammering it out, it's not as good as I'd have hoped against Plaguebearers... it will only kill on average 1 more plaguebearer than 2 Catachan russes firing with the re-roll 1's order.

It does significantly increase my firepower against Eldar though, doing an average of 12 wounds to a Hemlock at -2 or -3, instead of doing 5 wounds to a Hemlock with 2 russ Tank Commanders. Still, the increase in survivability and melee ability that the extra Knight would offer I think is still worth it, so I need to test it out. I'm slapping together some stuff for a tournament coming up, I won't have it fully painted but I'll see how it does at a local RTT this weekend.

I'm really enjoying the 4x knight build, but I'm looking at adding a little more firepower by dropping the Warden and getting three Dunecrawlers in its place.

Stigies VIII BN
2x Engiseer's
3x5 Rangers
2x Dunecrawlers w/Icarus Arrays
Dunecrawler w/Neutron Laser

3x Crusaders w/ Thermal Cannon& Stormspear Rocket Pods

Possibly a little weaker vs many knight lists, but three Krast Crusaders will still do well in close combat with anything that makes it past the firepower. I can boost one to Str 9 with a Canticle stratagem and keep them close together to heroic intervene and double-team a Full-Tilting Gallant or Lancer.

@bmsattler

what made you drop the 4th?

@Horst, man alaitoc flyer spam is just evil though so not auto losing to that is amazing. Being able to shred flyers out of the sky is hilarious.

Best of luck for the weekend

I'm new to 40K, so I'm still experimenting. That said, three Dunecrawlers are a lot more firepower than a Warden, and a good bit of it is anti-air. I haven't run into a flier-heavy list yet, but I want to be ready if I do. And the three tank chassis with a 5++ (re-roll 1's) seem like they would be as tough as a knight though less useful in melee. I'm counting on the three Crusaders to be threatening the stuff that would try to bad-touch my tanks and put pressure on a shooting army, or to counter-charge a melee-heavy army. We'll see!

@bmsattler, how’s stygies been working for you? You considered swapping to Graia for psychic deny stratagem?

In the last game I played, Stygies really helped out. I was playing long-range Guard and they focused hard on my knights. I think that having the -1 to hit wimpy 5-man ranger units hiding in buildings made him ignore my Ad Mech units. I won the game because I was able to sweep up his objectives with the rangers in the last couple of turns.

So far, I haven't really run into many heavy-hitting psychic armies. I'm actually planning on upgrading my Ranger squads to carry 6x super-sniper rifles. If I do, I'll definately remain Stygies and my psychic defense will be shooting the snipers in the head.

The list would be something like:
House Krast
3x Crusaders with Thermal Cannon and Stormspear Rocket pods

Stygies IIIV
2x Engiseers
3x6 Rangers with 2x Transauric Arabesques each
2x Dunecrawlers with Icarus Arrays

That leaves me with a few points to play around with yet. I may add Omnispexes to the Ranger squads to ignore cover, or a couple more bodies to cover those Arabesques.

I think this gives me decent (not great) anti-air, the ability to pick out characters that do Psychic or Buff things, and a core of knights to draw fire and stomp on enemies. The knights are definitely my anti-armor component, but the Dunecrawlers and Snipers can help if they need to.

Food for thought.

Knights lists seem to be the bridesmaids at the competitive weddings, but never the brides.

lots of 5-1 and 4-2 placings and they are always in the mix but rarely take home the trophies.

What would GW need to do to fix that, and if they wont/cant what can players do to try and break that barrier?

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Food for thought.

Knights lists seem to be the bridesmaids at the competitive weddings, but never the brides.

lots of 5-1 and 4-2 placings and they are always in the mix but rarely take home the trophies.

What would GW need to do to fix that, and if they wont/cant what can players do to try and break that barrier?

Pure knights will not be competitive at the top level untill allies rules as they are currently are dead and buried.

Their strategums are being recosted for the always taking a battalion (for the price of a Armiger).

No psychic defence, smite spam is brutal when your wounds are this expensive.

No obsec, you loose objectives to lone 4 point models.

The other issues arn't so much knights list more issue with 8th base mechanics like body spam and alitoc flyers.

I think he was talking about Knights with Allies going 5-1 at tournaments.... no pure Knights lists are gonna approach a record like that.

As for what GW would need to do to change that... Alaitoc's rule shouldn't apply to vehicles, and Plaguebearers should be 8-9 points instead of just 7. Genestealers are also slaughtering Knights, but I haven't played against them personally so I don't really know much about how they work.

Yeah I should of clarified. I meant imp soup with knight allies getting close but missing out on top spot.

@horst, how did your 4 knight testing go?

Well, to be precise you can manage either (or somehow both) those issue:
- the smite spam by Hawkshroud Relics (ignora Mortal in Psychic Phase at 4+) or by the Mechanicus stratagems (ignore Mortal on 5+ for 1CP)
- the objsec by the Banner of Macharius Triumphant (only Imperialis, gain objsec and count as 10 model) or by a Freeblade (one of the Qualities, I think "Sworn to a Quest", provide objsec aside other bonus, but always count as 1 model).

The true issue is that you whatever Household and Relics you select you will never be able to cover all those three area simultaneously, and you will seriously struggle to even cover two of them:
1 - Resilience (meaning Taranis or Ion Bulwark or Armour of Sancted Ion or Sanctuary)
2 - Firepower (meaning that anything over Str8 is a Relic, and you have to pick Traits and Relics like Endless Fury to have a competitive level of firepower)
3 - Versatility (see example above about Objsec and smite spam)

I personally pick up Traits and Relics immediately before a game, because if you know your model are an easy way to increase or decrease the competitiveness of your army.

@ideasweasel... I couldn't bring myself to play unpainted admech models at a tournament. It just felt wrong. So I cannot test that list until I finish painting my AdMech, and I won't finish that for a few weeks, so I won't be able to test out my 4 Knight version of my list anytime soon. :(

That said, my Knights/IG list is currently 15-2 in tournament games, over 4 tournaments (2 GT's, 2 RTT's). I went 3-0 with it again this weekend, beating an AdMech + Knights list, an Eldar Soup list, and a Chaos Soup list.

the Eldar guy rolled REALLY well for his saves and made the game way closer than it should have been, because his list wasn't super hardcore but the game was still close. The Daemons guy made quite a few tactical errors that I exploited, game was still super close.

 Horst wrote:
I think he was talking about Knights with Allies going 5-1 at tournaments.... no pure Knights lists are gonna approach a record like that.

As for what GW would need to do to change that... Alaitoc's rule shouldn't apply to vehicles, and Plaguebearers should be 8-9 points instead of just 7. Genestealers are also slaughtering Knights, but I haven't played against them personally so I don't really know much about how they work.

A few have actually achieved top 5 places at smaller events, your right though allies is unfortunately the only way to place high in a larger event. Alitoc's -1 to hit would be fine if they had to remain stationary for it aswell

I have a couple of knights that I've collected over the years and I only magnetized the arms on one of them. I can lop off the arms on the other two and magnetize them but I would like to be able to make crusaders out of two of them. Where does everyone get the bits for an arm+gun? I see bits out there for just the gun barrel for various types but not the arm or back end of the gun itself

Ebay. You can get any bits you need there, though you pay a pretty penny for them if they're in-demand bits like the Avenger Gattling Cannon or a Missile Pod.

lol yeah that's what I was seeing on ebay - like $55 for the gatling gun arm....still cheaper than buying a whole other knight of course

You're best off just buying the Knight Upgrade Sprue, like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Warhammer-40k-Imperial-Knights-Warden-Crusader-Upgrade-New-on-Sprue/283516862921?hash=item4202ec01c9%3Ag%3AEoUAAOSwy6hcz4bP&LH_BIN=1

$50.00, but you get a power fist, gattling cannon, missile pod, shoulder melta, and icarus cannon all at the same time. The fist, gattling cannon, and missile pod all cost like $30-40 each if you can find them on ebay.

There is also Taro Modelmaker on Etsy.

Right now your better off buying cannis rex kit and selling the base knight that actually trying to buy the upgrade sprue separately most of the time.

Hah, yea, that's true. Canis Rex is $130 on amazon, and you can sell the base Knight for ~$90. So you can save like $10. Not worth the time it would take me to sell it on ebay, honestly.

Awesome - thanks! I think I'll do the upgrade sprue...sounds like it should take care of most of my issues

I saw you guys discussing astropaths earlier. They're an auto-include in my guard lists - sometimes more than one. Besides being a cheap DTW one of the powers is Psychic Maelstrom and it dishes out mortal wounds which I've found handy for sniping characters that were getting too close to my lines. Or I'll take Psychic Barrier and cast it on my conscripts to give them a +1 to their save so turn one I can spend 2CP on giving my conscripts cover and then psychic barrier so now they're at a 3+ save for a turn.

Going to a GT next week... considering some last-minute tweaks to my list for things I have models for. Current list is:

Guard Battalion w/ 2 Tank Commanders (3 heavy bolters each), 3 Infantry Squads

Krast Detachment, 2 Crusaders (one with Battle Cannon, both with Ironstorms), 1 Warden (power fist + stormspear pod)

Assassin in reserve.

Considering dropping one of the tank commanders, dropping the assassin, and replacing them with a Company Commander, 3 mortar teams, an Astropath, and a Smash Captain.

I'd go from 9 drops to 13, so I'd still likely have fewer than many armies, and I'd lose 1 Battlecannon, but I'd gain significantly improved anti-horde firepower, significantly improved indirect fire, significantly improved ability to assassinate characters / important vehicles (smash captain >>> assassin in killing single models). Opinions on this?

How are you getting in the smash captain? Also have you looked at the The Emperor’s Fist Tank Company for your guard and take the Hammer of Sunderance relic battle cannon? Flat 3 damage on a battle cannon shooting 2D6 shots hitting on 3's and rerolling 1's is bonkers. Costs you a couple of CP I know but flat 3 is awesome

My problem with BA smash captains is that they come in on turn 2 or 3 kill something and then die. Don't ask me why but my opponent always seems to be able to kill these guys. Got mortal wounded to death by a 10 man scout squad with sniper rifles once...that was embarrassing....

I'd change to cadian if you're going to take the mortar teams. If they don't move your can order them to take aim which for cadians means reroll misses for units that don't move. So at least two units can do that if you keep the company commander around. Think you could scrounge up 10 points and make the tank commander Pask? hitting on 2's rerolling 1's is awesome sauce (especially with HoS)

Another good relic is the Relic of Lost Cadia...that's been my defecto standard since the CP farm went away. For 1 turn all cadian units within 12" of the bearer rerolls hits and wounds against anything chaos. It's more effective with my 100% IG list but still a tank commander/pask and three units of mortars would put the hurt on for one turn.

Yea, I just realized I'd have to take a patrol detachment to get the captain w/ his stratagems, because the aux. detachment doesn't let him use stratagems.

So I'd have to drop 1 of the 3 mortar teams and the stormspear pod on my Warden would be downgraded to an ironstorm pod. Still, it would let me start with 1 extra CP, so that's nice.

The Captain doesn't come in on turn 2 or 3.... he comes in turn 1. He can use a stratagem to basically teleport across the battlefield, then another to get a turn 1 charge off. He's in your face turn 1. So I'd have to pay 4 CP to do it, but he's all but guaranteed a turn 1 charge if I want it, and he can fight twice if I need to. if my Eldar opponent is dumb enough to have 2 hemlocks or flyers within 4" of each other, I can easily kill both by having him charge both, destroy one, then consolidate into the other and use Fight Twice to kill the second one. Against Chaos, he'll easily remove a prince or two in the same fashion, since he's got a 4 damage thunderhammer with +1 to wound.

The smash captain is insanely expensive on CP though, so I don't have the CP to spare to buy a relic cannon for a tank commander, and I'd have to go barebones on relics for my Knights... make the Warden a character, give the Headsman's Mark to one Knight, and Ion Bulwark to the last. The Captain would have to be my Warlord, so I can give him +1 damage as a trait, so his thunderhammer hits for a flat 4 damage. This means I'd start with 11 CP (-2 for relic/trait for Knights, -1 for relic for Captain), and turn 1 I'll spend 4-7 CP to fling my captain into combat, and potentially fight twice. This leaves me with 4-7 CP left for my Knights, basically reserved for Rotate Ion Shields or Machine Spirit Resurgent. Actually, I'd have to give the captain D3 more attacks and +1 to wound, so that's another 2 CP... he's gonna blow 6-9 CP turn 1 depending on what kind of damage I need him to do.

Of course, in some matchups I wouldn't need to go HAM with my captain like that, if I'm fighting Knights players and I get first turn I could just shoot them to death, I'd only need the captain to go Super Sayain if I go second and am in serious trouble. Against Daemons, I wouldn't have to get a turn 1 charge off, since they're going to come to me. Against Eldar, I'd probably have to do it to try to kill his Hemlocks, since if they Jinx a Knight it's very easy to kill them.

I'll have to find that teleporting strat in the BA book I only ever take a battalion of two captains with scouts as a plugin to my guard once in awhile. Had I known about the teleport I'd start him on the board more often. But yeah smash captains can chew through most of your cp in a single turn that's for sure. Between the captains and my guard and Castellan (pre-price hike) I was out of cp but turn 2 easy.