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Yep, he can burn all your CP away REALLY fast... I'd probably plan to usually either deep strike him normally instead of blowing 2 CP to teleport him, or keep him back as a counter-charge unit for when something gets too close, but having the option to use him as a turn 1 nuclear missile on any unit I don't like would be invaluable. Of course he can still be screened out like any deep striker, but it gives my opponent more chances to make mistakes, which is great.

Would you not miss First Knight on your krast crusader?

That's the price you pay for killing one or two things and causing a huge distraction for one turn

Yea... This would let me pick which I need more based on the enemy's list... I can either take First Knight on my Warlord, and use the smash captain more conservatively, or I can save all my CP to blow on the Smash Captain to utterly destroy something.

With my proposed list, I'd start with 12 CP, so if I can hold my Captain back behind my lines as a counter-charge element, I can save the 4 CP it costs to redeploy and give him a 3D6 charge, and instead spend it on extra relics / traits for my Knights. If I'm fighting Eldar, where most of their things have -2 to hit anyway, re-rolling 1's to hit isn't nearly as good as it is vs something like Knights anyway, and putting those CP to use powering my captain so he can help me kill their flyers sounds like a much better use of my CP.

Would he be that useful against flyer spam alaitoc?

If they spaced them out I imagine he’s going to nuke one then get kited. It takes the heat off your knights I suppose

My friend plays BA and a slam cap is indeed a beautiful/terrifying thing to behold

Thinking about it, I could just keep him back and use him to charge flyers when they get too close (and they will, since Hemlocks are 18" range only) and not spend all that CP on him. With good positioning, I might be able to take one out without exposing my captain to insane return fire that way.

So, if he clusters his flyers, send in the smash captain to wreck two of them turn 1. If he doesn't cluster them, then hold the captain back and play more reactive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, I figured it out... how to get a smash captain into my list, along with a Primaris Psyker, while losing minimal firepower. I swap a Tank Commander out for a Primaris Psyker w/ Nightshroud and Psychic Maelstrom so he can do some decent mortal wound damage, and use the leftover points to upgrade the Warden to a Crusader w/ Battle Cannon and Ironstorm, along with a Smash Captain and 5 man tactical marines squad.

I'm not losing any heavy firepower, the Battle Cannon from the Tank Commander effectively gets "moved" onto the Warden. I lose the power fist, but I really only had it for hand to hand ability vs Knights, and the Smash Captain covers that nicely anyway, so no need for the Warden to have a Paragon Gauntlet when if I need melee against Knights I've already got it covered. I also gain a 5 man tactical squad, which seems trivial, but they'd make great Engineers. Throw them in cover, and T4 with a 3+ save (2+ in cover) behind LOS blocking terrain would be quite durable against most indirect fire weapons, so I can hold a back objective and score ITC secondaries with them.

Finalized list looks like:


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [23 PL, 8CP, 354pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [5CP]

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Cadian

+ HQ +

Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 46pts]: Force Stave, Nightshroud, Psychic Maelstrom

Tank Commander [12 PL, 188pts]: Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolters
. Command Battle Tank: Battle Cannon

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]
. 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]
. 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]
. 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

++ Patrol Detachment (Imperium - Blood Angels) [11 PL, 189pts] ++

+ HQ +

Captain [6 PL, 124pts]: 2. Artisan of War, Jump Pack, Storm shield, The Angel's Wing (replaces jump pack), Thunder hammer, Warlord

+ Troops +

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 65pts]
. 4x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant
. . Bolt pistol and boltgun

++ Super-Heavy Detachment +6CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [75 PL, 4CP, 1,456pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [6CP]

Exalted Court [-1CP]: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait

Heirlooms of the Household [-1CP]: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom

Household Choice: Questor Mechanicus
. House Krast

+ Lord of War +

Knight Crusader [25 PL, 468pts]: Character (Knight Lance), Heavy Stubber, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Thermal Cannon
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer

Knight Crusader [25 PL, 494pts]: Character (Exalted Court), Heavy Stubber, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer
. Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon w/ Heavy Stubber: Heavy Stubber, Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon

Knight Crusader [25 PL, 494pts]: Character (Heirloom of the House), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom (Krast): The Headsman's Mark, Ironstorm Missile Pod
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer
. Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon w/ Heavy Stubber: Heavy Stubber, Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon

++ Total: [109 PL, 12CP, 1,999pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

Whats the decision behind opting for 2x battle cannons?

What’s your plans for relics with this setup?

The decision behind 2x battle cannons was because I liked the firepower my original list had... I had 3x Battle Cannons (2 on Leman Russes) and 3x Avenger Cannons. I need to drop a russ to make room for the Blood Angels detachment, so I can effectively take that tank's main weapon and just throw it onto the Warden, making it a 3rd Crusader. It loses it's power fist, but I don't need the fist anymore if I have a smash captain that fills the same heavy melee role anyway. So I keep the same ranged firepower (though the russ is still better, thanks to re-rolls). Having 3x Battle Cannons and 3x Ironstorm pods means at 72 inches I can still lay some hurt down on you, even if you're diagonally across the table.

Relic wise, I'm giving one of the Battle Cannon Crusaders Headsman's Mark or Endless Fury, depending on the enemy. I'll give him First Knight as well. This means I'll start on 12 CP. I'll spend one pre-game on making my Captain a Death Company Captain for the extra attack, so I'm down to 11. I'm only going to have one Knight with relics / traits doing this, so he's the obvious target to get shot at, so he'll get the Rotate Ion Shields every turn. I don't think there's a need for Ion Bulwark actually, since I'll always have one Knight with a 5++ invuln who's gonna get shot no matter what I do.

It’s funny you mention this but my finding is that Ion bulwark is a bit useless at times with 3 knights. I give it to my warlord. Smart opponents just bait me to use rotate on a knight and then they swap to the other.

If I don’t pop rotate they just focus it down. If only we could rotate based on a 6” bubble

Short version is they just pick the one with a 5++ usually anyway

I like to put Ion Bulwark on the knight with the Headsman Mark, then pair First Knight with Endless Fury to get more chances at those 6's. Both these on a Krast Crusader, for clarity.

 Ideasweasel wrote:
It’s funny you mention this but my finding is that Ion bulwark is a bit useless at times with 3 knights. I give it to my warlord. Smart opponents just bait me to use rotate on a knight and then they swap to the other.

If I don’t pop rotate they just focus it down. If only we could rotate based on a 6” bubble

Short version is they just pick the one with a 5++ usually anyway

Yup, that's my findings as well. Might as well stop taking it in a list with 3 or more Knights, unless you're planning on combining it with the Armor of the Sainted Ion... then you can have one Knight with a 2+/5++, and 2 with 3+/4++, so against common AP2 weapons everyone saves on a 4+.

So against other Knight players, for example, a lot of the guns are AP2, so it might be a good idea to do that. Against Eldar, most of their anti-tank weapons are AP3 or better, so no point in bothering with the Ion Bulwark since they'll just focus down the 5++ Knight anyway.

bmsattler wrote:
I like to put Ion Bulwark on the knight with the Headsman Mark, then pair First Knight with Endless Fury to get more chances at those 6's. Both these on a Krast Crusader, for clarity.

Yup, that's a really good setup if you have 2 relics / 2 traits to spend.

I’ve got the makings of a list that I am putting together, i think it’s going to struggle with CP and is definitely vulnerable to flier spam...but I’m determined to make Taranis work.

I love the alpha strike power of Krast but my luck I always seem to go second and someone just shoots a knight off the table.

A 75% chance to keep him alive(with reroll) for a round of shooting fits my play style I think

Saying that my best results were 3/3 in a tournament using Krast but more often than not I’m staring at a depleted list turn one and feeling sorry for myself haha

Speaking of tournaments anyone competed in any recent that want to share their experiences?

 Ideasweasel wrote:
I’ve got the makings of a list that I am putting together, i think it’s going to struggle with CP and is definitely vulnerable to flier spam...but I’m determined to make Taranis work.

I love the alpha strike power of Krast but my luck I always seem to go second and someone just shoots a knight off the table.

A 75% chance to keep him alive(with reroll) for a round of shooting fits my play style I think

Saying that my best results were 3/3 in a tournament using Krast but more often than not I’m staring at a depleted list turn one and feeling sorry for myself haha

Speaking of tournaments anyone competed in any recent that want to share their experiences?

I second the interest in tales from tournaments. I'm interested in playing a variation of horst's list at Nova this year so I'm pressed for time for getting play time (since I'm new to knights). Reviewing other peoples battle reports, etc would help a lot.

I'm also interested in hearing how you deal with genestealer cult lists. A buddy of mine plays them and they started showing up in my local RTTs and doing pretty well. My only defense against them has been two units of conscripts to take the heat off my tanks so they can get a good turn of shooting (I highly recommend tank commanders with the gatling turret). Something else I bump into are transports loaded with death Usually a flyer like a storm raven or the space wolves flying shoe box. As IG I love those. People fly them right up to me shoot and kill a tank and murder an infantry squad or two and feel all kinds of confident that I'm as good as dead when they all hop out next turn...until I wrap his flyer with the remaining infantry squads and kill the flyer with my bassies and/or pask. Flyer dies and takes almost 1/2 my opponents points with it.

 necron99 wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:
I’ve got the makings of a list that I am putting together, i think it’s going to struggle with CP and is definitely vulnerable to flier spam...but I’m determined to make Taranis work.

I love the alpha strike power of Krast but my luck I always seem to go second and someone just shoots a knight off the table.

A 75% chance to keep him alive(with reroll) for a round of shooting fits my play style I think

Saying that my best results were 3/3 in a tournament using Krast but more often than not I’m staring at a depleted list turn one and feeling sorry for myself haha

Speaking of tournaments anyone competed in any recent that want to share their experiences?

I second the interest in tales from tournaments. I'm interested in playing a variation of horst's list at Nova this year so I'm pressed for time for getting play time (since I'm new to knights). Reviewing other peoples battle reports, etc would help a lot.

I'm also interested in hearing how you deal with genestealer cult lists. A buddy of mine plays them and they started showing up in my local RTTs and doing pretty well. My only defense against them has been two units of conscripts to take the heat off my tanks so they can get a good turn of shooting (I highly recommend tank commanders with the gatling turret). Something else I bump into are transports loaded with death Usually a flyer like a storm raven or the space wolves flying shoe box. As IG I love those. People fly them right up to me shoot and kill a tank and murder an infantry squad or two and feel all kinds of confident that I'm as good as dead when they all hop out next turn...until I wrap his flyer with the remaining infantry squads and kill the flyer with my bassies and/or pask. Flyer dies and takes almost 1/2 my opponents points with it.

I'm happy to share my recent tournament experiences with a (mostly) Knights list. Here's the list for reference:

Hawkshroud Lancer, Gallant, Crusader (battle cannon)

Krast Crusader (battle cannon, ironstorm)

Rusty 17

86 spare points to buy an assassin


I was just this last weekend at a GT where I went 2-3, putting me at a paltry 7-10 with this list (1-5 at BAO was rough). I've also had the pleasure of playing against a variety of rather good lists (and losing spectacularly). For example, I've lost to Don Hooson's Chaos list of FW dreads and Jim Vesal's Chaos list of demons + TSons + etc (I've not been stomped by either of them personally, just people using those lists). As a general thing I know my list isn't very good, it's straight up mediocre at best, but it's mine and I like it. I'll talk about how my most recent GT went where I went 2-3 (and won best in faction Imperium apparently?)

GAME 1:

Opponent: Necron player extraordinaire. Tesseract Vault, 3 doomsdays, 3 doom(?)scythes, 9 scarabs, cryptek, 9 tomb blades (I think? The flying shooty things). Result: LOSS 15-31

Game started off alright, he got some good shooting in but had deployed very cautiously and got my Krast knight down to 9 or so turn 1 thanks to the flyers + tomb blades + doomsdays. He also made a line of the flyers ~14" from my Gallant to keep him from going too far. I kill a flyer on my turn, kill 8(of 9 sadly) scarabs with some shooting and my Lancer sprinting forward but can't reach his T Vault. He'd done his Nihilak strat turn 1 to give it a 3++ so I'd ignored it in shooting. Turn 2 it starts going less happy. Krast Crusader dies, Lancer gets chunked, Gallant takes some damage, my Skitarii start dying. My Lancer ends up getting charged by the T Vault and smacked by the C'Tan inside but I do swing back for 12 damage. My turn: Gallant charges a Doomsday Ark and only does 7(!) damage to it since my Chainsword or Gauntlet would be rendered useless by it's Shielding. My Lancer stays stuck in doing 12 more damage but gets smacked to death in return. My Crusader wanted to charge in but juuuust couldn't fit and the Vault flies away with 4 health left. His turn 3, kills my Gallant, reduces my last Crusader to like half, sits his T Vault on a ruin to be un-chargeable. My 3: My Crusader kills the T Vault, steps on the last scarab. His 4: My Crusader finally dies and then it's just a mop up job for him. We math it out and I lose 15-31. We get an early lunch and just shoot the gak. Super nice and fun opponent, cool to see Necrons.

GAME 2:

Opponent: Chaos soup with Renegade Knights, 3 plaguebursts, a Whirlwind Scorpius, 27 plaguebearers, 3 nurglings, DP, Chaos Lord. Result: WIN 31-18

Game starts off with him Scorpius-ing down 2 of my Skitarii squads (ouch) and bringing my Krast Crusader to like 10W left with his Armigers, Plaguebursts, and Twin-gatling Knight. My Turn 1: I do 22 damage from my Krast to his Renegade knight. My other Crusader finishes it off and does some damage to an Armiger. Meanwhile his Demon Prince had gotten a little out of position and was Full Tilted into by my Lancer but he only took 3 damage from my Lance, making 3 of 4 invulns before his Disgusting Resilience. He jumps his demon prince behind his lines after that on his 2. Brings my Krast Crusader down to only 4 with most of his shooting, wiping the rest of my Skitarii as well with his Scorpius. My Lancer had heroically intervened into his plaguebearers and stomped around on them before falling back on my turn to charge his armigers and kill 1. My Gallant had been flanking on the other end and charges into his plaguebearers. My shooting is relatively weak this turn but I kill 1 armiger, a bunch of plaguebearers and do some damage to a plagueburst. From here it's a slow roll through his tanks, eventually tabling him on my 6 with 3 of my knights still alive.

GAME 3:

Opponent: Jim Vesal's list with added MAGNUS THE RED. LOSS: Embarrassingly so

I don't really need to go into detail how this went. I took the Culexus like a dumb dumb which helped dampen his psykers for a little but he got wrapped by plaguebearers so the screen lived all game. Magnus dumpstered a knight, the Demon Prince with Titan slaying axe dumpstered 2 others and by me being super passive I never really gave myself a chance to win. Should have full-press deployed and tried to seize. It would have been my only shot really. Instead I got slowly choked out and lost in sad fashion.

GAME 4:

Opponent: Gunline SM featuring Bobby G. LOSS: 28-23

This game started really well. My Lancer got into his lines and ruined a Captain, I picked up a few Intercessors, Krast Crusader picked up Chronus' predator turn 1. His turn 1 he dumped everything into my Lancer and killed it, but it let my Gallant get into his lines on my turn 2 and kill another Predator, throwing it at Bobby G. The predator had also exploded doing even more mortal wounds to Bobby G and his 1 Leviathan. He shot a lot into my Gallant and killed it but I exploded it on a 4+ using the stratagem, KILLING the big Bobby himself who stood up with only 1 WOUND. Wait, no, it was 6 after a CP re-roll. Well gak. That turned the game around. My Callidus dropped in on 3 and whiffed her shooting on Gman, and only did 4 to him in melee. He picked her up. My Crusaders whiffed their shooting as well, failing to kill his Leviathan or random flyer or last Predator. This was the turn, his re-rolls ruined my Hawkshroud Crusader and I was on my back-foot the rest of the game. I killed his flyer and Leviathan but it was too late. Bobby G, intercessors and the predator poured just enough into my Krast Crusader to kill him on turn 5. If Bobby G had come back with 4 or less wounds, I think I would have won. C'est la vie.

GAME 5:

Opponent: PURE Knights! Raven Castellan, Gallant, 2x Crusaders WIN: 36-13

Whoever went first was going to win 100%. I went first. My Lancer sprinted up and split his Gallant in half, my Crusaders put 18 wounds on his Castellan. All his remaining knights are required to kill my Krast Knight who was rolling 4++ like it was nothing, but he did eventually die. (I made 4 4++ on the Volcano Lance! It was wild) He charged both Crusaders into my Lancer and do some stomping, I swing back but only do 12 to 1 Crusader. My Gallant charged in on my 2 and Paragon'd a Crusader from full to 0. My Lancer finishes the other Crusader. His Castellan lives with 1. His turn he finished my Lancer with his Castellan. My turn 3, I get cheeky and kill his Castellan with my Callidus' shooting. Super fun and cool opponent, no doubt he'd have won had he gone first.

Overall, my list (and me) excell against low/mid tier lists but struggle hard against that top-tier stuff. I still love my big stompy stabby robits though. Let me know if you have any questions. As to how to defeat GSC with a list like mine? I can't. I'd just lose 100%.

Thanks for the battle reports Jakal - that was very instructive! Yeah I need to noodle gsc. I'm sure I'll be bumping into them at Nova no matter what bracket I end up in. I'm starting to lean more to a trip crusaders with rapid fire battle cannons/thermal cannons (you can take both on a single crusader? Need to look that up) and let tank commanders with their punisher gatling cannons take care of sneaky fodder like gsc. Don't know how good 3 infantry squads are going to hold up to gsc - probably not well Might need to squeeze some points out the knights and a 20 man conscript squad for one of the infantry squads

Thanks for posting. The ITC scene is next to non existent where I live so tournaments are few and far between.

Sounds like you had a good laugh despite the mixed results.

I take it the rusty 17 is Graia yeah?

I often lose to GSC lists but I think it’s down to mistakes I make, what about your list makes it feel like it’s an auto lose for you?

I'm afraid you can take 1 of Thermal or RFBC, both my Crusaders were Gatling/RFBC. I'm not a fan of the Thermal due to how unreliable 1D6 can be. Also, yes, my Rusty 17 is Graia for the psyker defense

Well I took my list to the Basement Open this weekend, went 4-2 with it.

Game 1, I fought against an ultramarines player with 3 forgeworld flyers, guillliman, tiggy, and scouts. I got turn 1, Killed one flyer with shooting, killed the other with the smash captain. He tried to return fire, didn't do much, I then just went and did cleanup.

Game 2, I fought space wolves. I just deployed in a corner, gave him "hold more" every turn as I killed his guys, and eventually tabled him. I scored pretty low, but meh a win is a win.

Game 3... I had to fight Jim Vesal. This was the most exciting game of the weekend for me. I should have taken pictures, but I'm really not good at remembering to take pictures. We got the table quarters deployment, mission was Nexus Control. I parked a Tank Commander on one objective, and the Knights basically up front on the line like I was going to be aggressive, Jim deployed a bit further back so I couldn't charge anything. I got first turn, and moved the Knights back so they were at max range, and killed one of his dreadnoughts (he was using 2 Deredeos instead of his normal 1 C-Beamer guy), and killed a bunch of plaguebearers. The rest of the game he kept moving forward, while I kept falling back to stay out of charge range of his Princes. Eventually, he got close enough that my Smash Captain could get a charge off on his princes. Smash Captain killed the Khorne Prince, a Tzeentch Prince killed him, and then he used Only in Death Does Duty End to kill the Tzeentch prince. After the Khorne prince was broken, I charged in with my Knights, and began the cleanup. It was a low scoring game, since I basically just fell back and gave ground the whole time, and some turns I didn't hold any objectives (and I think one turn I didn't score any points at all) but by being patient and wearing him down, waiting until my Captain could take out the biggest threat to my Knights, let me win. Final score was 26-16. Definitely my favorite game of the weekend.

Game 4, against Genestealer Cults w/ Nid Allies. I (unfortunately) had first turn, so I castled up and didn't kill anything since there very few visible targets, and the ones that I could shoot at I failed to kill. He sent in waves of Abberants, but I used the 2+ armor relic and Sanctuary trait, allowing my Knights to weather the storm. In the end, I had 2 Knights left alive on 1 wound, and 1 healthy Knight that was stomping through his back lines as my 1 wound Knights stayed safely back and held the home objectives. Another low scoring game, but I pulled out a win.

Game 5, against Seeker Missile Spam Tau. This list is specifically designed to kill Knights. He has so many seeker missiles, ion cannons, and plasma weapons, that if he goes first turn mathematically he should kill all 3 of my Knights. Luckily I got the first turn. Unluckily I flubbed my shooting HARD, only killing one of his vehicles and leaving another on 3 wounds. My Smash Captain was in a prime position to take out 2 of his vehicles, and failed his 3D6 re-rollable charge. His turn, he kills the captain, and 2 of my Knights. I try to fight back, but in the end cannot do much. I am destroyed. My dice kinda betrayed me here, this was just sad. There's no way I should have done so little damage turn 1, and a captain failing a charge that has a 93% chance of succeeding is just salt in the wound.

Game 6, against Eldar Soup. I was kind of on tilt from the previous game here, and I made several serious tactical errors. I should have given him first turn, and deployed far enough back that some of his guys couldn't get to me. I also forgot he could Vect my captain's teleport stratagem, and forgot that his solitare could make like a 35" charge and take out my captain. So yea, I played poorly, and my opponent also rolled like a god (seriously, one turn a single remaining skyweaver shot at me with it's haywire cannon... did 7 mortal wounds, and I failed all 7 of my 5+++ saves against them from the stratagem). So it was over fairly fast, and I lost.

The really unfortunately part about this, IMO, is that if I won game 5, I'd have played a nid list in Game 6, which didn't have very much anti-tank. It would have been an almost certain win IMO. If my Shield Captain didn't fail that charge, I'd have removed 8 of his seeker missile shots from play during his first turn, which would have likely saved one of my Knights from certain death, which would have meant turn 2 I have double the firepower going in, which would have potentially meant I win the game. The Smash Captain failing that charge cost me the GT win IMO. Still, without him I'd have not beat Jim in game 3, so the smash captain givith, the smash captain taketh away.

A win versus Jim V! Haha well done Horst that’s quite the scalp.

So you liking the blood angels detachment? Would you change anything for your next tournament? Maybe make the tac squads scouts?

Yea, definitely keeping the smash captain. Failing a charge like that is unlikely, but without him I'd have stood no chance anyway. Like, if I had an extra leman russ instead of the smash captain, I'd have killed an extra Tau vehicle, but it wouldn't have been enough to turn the tide of that game. I needed a BIG punch, and the captain is the only thing that could have done it. He's way better than I thought... 6 to 8 attacks, hitting on 3+, rerolling ones, with +1 to wound at strength 8, with the ability to fight twice and fight on death, with a flat 4 damage hammer is just crazy. You gotta feed him a lot of CP, but Krast doesn't really need much CP anyway, so it works out.

Ah those moments when even your opponent gives you a sympathetic look. hehe

Yeah I failed a 3d6 9" rerollable charge into a baneblade once too :( Wasn't pretty....that's why I'm on the fence with that guy. I mean yeah being able to sneak in and knock off a daemon prince embedded in a unit of plague bearers is gold I just hate trading models. Still...may have to revisit that. And yeah vect is just broken. Had a DA player use that against my smash captain and pretty much neutered his attacks. Only took out one ravager and damaged another before he bit the big one.

I honestly don't see a way to win against Daemons without a Smash Captain being able to go in there and assassinate the Khorne prince. Otherwise, you cannot stop it from assaulting and killing your Knights, and once that happens the game's pretty much over. I mean obviously it's a viable way to counter it, it worked against the best Daemons player in the world, so I'm probably going to keep him around. I think I need to get better at not relying on his teleport + charge stratagem though. As a counter-assault unit for taking out scary things when they get too close, he's great. He did a pretty good job killing Abberants as well, since his 4 damage hammer becomes 3, which still usually insta kills them. For ~180 points, a Smash Captain + Scouts in a Patrol should almost always be an auto-take in a Knights list IMO.

How much CP does he end up costing?

1 CP to make him Death Company pre-game.
2 CP to teleport him
2 CP to get the 3D6 charge
1 CP to give him D3 extra attacks on the charge
3 CP to fight twice

So 9 CP total for a turn 1 alpha strike. He's also gotta be your warlord, so your Knights have fewer relics. Making him the Warlord gives him +1 damage on his hammer, and lets him re-roll failed charges and become immune to overwatch.

Of course, that's an absolute worst-case max cost for him, and should only be used if you need to do something like take out an enemy Castellan, where if it pays off you win the game. Against Daemons or an army that's coming towards you anyway, you don't need to spend the 4 CP to deep strike and charge, you can just wait until he gets close enough for a regular charge, and if your captain dies before he can use the fight again stratagem, he can use fight on death for 2 CP and it's a little cheaper.

 Ideasweasel wrote:
How much CP does he end up costing?

It varies. Normally you need 2 CPs to use either Forlorn Fury or (more likely) Upon Wings of Fire to get Captain Smash into position for a T1 charge. Assuming he makes the charge you will want 1CP for Red rampage (extra D3 attacks). Then you will normally want either 2 or 3 CPs to fight a second time in melee (depending on whether he destroys his target or something hits him back hard). Possibly 1 more CP to reroll a failed hit or wound to make sure you force that damage through.

This means 5-7 CPs on average to power him up to the max.

It is worth noting though that you won't always need to pump him up that high. If your opponent does not have any large, powerful targets, he is pretty killy, even without burning a ton of CPs. Plus he has the usual reroll bubble.

That is the beauty of Captain Smash. If your opponent brings something nasty, you dump a load of CPs onto him to turn him into a monster. But you don't have to. Even by himself he is very hitty and killy and will often do the damage you need to take out conventional targets.

That being the case, would it be worth looking at a Supreme Command detachment instead of patrol?

Krast
3x Crusaders w/ Thermal Cannon and Ironstorm Missiles

Stygies IIIV
2x Engiseers
3x5 Rangers

Blood Angels
Slamcaptain
Chief Librarian Mephiston
Librarian Dreadnaught

1995

Stick the characters in close with your knights for mutual aid. Lots of anti-psyker, three anti-fly melee, indirect and the ability to send two beat-sticks in after infantry hiding. Its probably weak against hordes, but even then its so compact that you might be able to go in and defeat them in detail.

bmsattler wrote:
That being the case, would it be worth looking at a Supreme Command detachment instead of patrol?

Krast
3x Crusaders w/ Thermal Cannon and Ironstorm Missiles

Stygies IIIV
2x Engiseers
3x5 Rangers

Blood Angels
Slamcaptain
Chief Librarian Mephiston
Librarian Dreadnaught

1995

Stick the characters in close with your knights for mutual aid. Lots of anti-psyker, three anti-fly melee, indirect and the ability to send two beat-sticks in after infantry hiding. Its probably weak against hordes, but even then its so compact that you might be able to go in and defeat them in detail.

I've been thinking about a similar list and I think it has a lot of potential, but mine drops Mephiston for 3x5 scouts for the Battalion, starting with 19(!) CP. Also playing around with a list where I run 2x Crusaders with RFBC and 1 gallant to do better against hordes/melee lists. I currently own 0 Blood Angel models however so it's pretty far from happening for me.

I think triple Knights + Blood Angels lists have a lot of potential, I don't know if I've seen many of them tried very often honestly. Especially Krast Knights, since they require very little CP to function, unlike Raven or other Houses.

I have a tournament coming up next month (too soon, I have a lot to paint!!) and I'm planning on running something like Horst runs. I don't have Tank Commander, so I'm planning on just running two Company Commanders. This makes me able to take a bigger detachment of BA, but I'm unsure which route to go, Supreme Command or Battalion. I have two squads of Scouts, so I'd have to run one troop as Intercessors. Supreme Command could be decent. I only really need one supersmash captain for hard targets, the other two can do a bit of work against elf flyers coming my way.

One idea I was pondering is Spearhead detachment with Smash captain or two, and 3 squads of Eliminators for sniping and being tough to remove from cover.

What do you guys think?

EDIT: typo