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Dead.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I think Angron was one of the two most important Primarchs to thwarting Chaos, which is why he (and Curze) ended up on the two shittiest worlds for a Primarch to have landed on.

Any of the 20 would have been completely fethed up by the Butcher's Nails. Any one of them... but the most important Primarch to drive them into was him.

Why are he and Curze so important to stop Chaos?

Curze is easily the most obvious- because he knew, roughly, what was going to happen. In order for there to be a Heresy, the Chaos Gods had to ensure he wouldn't or couldn't stop it. Nostramo turned him into a psychopathic, antisocial nihilist who cared for little but finding his own death.

I find it doubtful that would change anything. He could give all the warning he liked but the Emperor would just ignore it all.

You can't think of any points in the Heresy that would have been wildly different if some forewarning arrived? Like, ya know, the Dropsite Massacre? Istvaan V? Calth? Prospero? Signus?

Did you read any of what I said? None of those things would change much if the warnings were just ignored.

pm713 wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I think Angron was one of the two most important Primarchs to thwarting Chaos, which is why he (and Curze) ended up on the two shittiest worlds for a Primarch to have landed on.

Any of the 20 would have been completely fethed up by the Butcher's Nails. Any one of them... but the most important Primarch to drive them into was him.

Why are he and Curze so important to stop Chaos?

Curze is easily the most obvious- because he knew, roughly, what was going to happen. In order for there to be a Heresy, the Chaos Gods had to ensure he wouldn't or couldn't stop it. Nostramo turned him into a psychopathic, antisocial nihilist who cared for little but finding his own death.

I find it doubtful that would change anything. He could give all the warning he liked but the Emperor would just ignore it all.

You can't think of any points in the Heresy that would have been wildly different if some forewarning arrived? Like, ya know, the Dropsite Massacre? Istvaan V? Calth? Prospero? Signus?

Did you read any of what I said? None of those things would change much if the warnings were just ignored.

Most of the otehr warnings got ignroed becuase they came from lesser mortals. You have to consider all the ramification of a non-nostramo Kruze:

1) Without Nostramo and the resulting flesh-eating and psychosis, Kurze never develops his morbidty or death-seeking fetishes.
2) He doesn't just become generic at that point - he does have his foresight and likely develops around that as much as magnus does around his intellect or russ does around his homeworld.
3) Unlike Magnus, Kurze isn't a ego-centric jerk who loves to tell you how much smarter he is.
4) Kurze likely develops towards his foresight, strengthing it and getting known as an 'Oracle Primarch'
5) This means that it's not just the emo psychopath delivering warnings of doom at Istavaan but the galaxy's second best known Oracle - Ferrus Manus, for all his beligerince, is always willing to yield to his brothers in their area of expertise, meaning he'd actually hold back (same if the Istavaan fleet hadn't been comprised of the least tactical of the loyalist primarchs, but I digress)

There are only really two points that Kurze the farseeing son can't really help:
1) Horus falling. Horus doesn't listen to his brother primarches when it suits him and Kurze likely would be out of communication anyway
2) The Emperor's plans. The Emperor seems all too aware of the risks of his plan, but took the risks anyway. Kurze wouldn't be telling him anything he didn't already know. The emperor really gambled on his sons not falling to Chaos and boy did that bite him in the rear.

You can do this exercise for Angron as well:
1) Angron isn't sent to the gladiatorial hellhole.
2) Without the constant rage, Angron focuses on his remaining trait - he incredibly strong sense of honor and fair play, gravitating him towards the fuedal worlds and their aspects.
3) Angron brings this to his legion and the whole group get known as the 'civilized' chivalric counterpoint to Leman Russ's savagery
4) Gulliman and Angron like each other. Let that sink it.
5) Angron likely takes the horus heresy betrayal personally and replaced Ferrus Manus as 'most headstrong responder to crisis'
6) World Eater Loyalist players like having access to in-faction knight units but complan about the lack of a 40k primarch model
7) Dakka Dakka responds with a flood of headless Angron memes
8) Iron Hands players keep playing with their Dreadnought primarch, since Ferrus Manus really can't be saved from himself.

Edit: Now I'm on a roll and the only primarches I can find whose story doesn't change a lot based on their origins is Magnus and Horus. Horus seems completely disconnected from his origin story and more formed by the Great Crusade (maybe because he was picked up so early?). Magnus is so much in a hole of his own making that I can't see changing much even if the emperor had shoved his butt into the darkest of forgeworlds.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

1) Angron isn't sent to the gladiatorial hellhole.
2) Without the constant rage, Angron focuses on his remaining trait - he incredibly strong sense of honor and fair play, gravitating him towards the fuedal worlds and their aspects.
3) Angron brings this to his legion and the whole group get known as the 'civilized' chivalric counterpoint to Leman Russ's savagery
4) Gulliman and Angron like each other. Let that sink it.

Yeah, people often try to find each primarch's duplicate, but the reality is that one can usually draw dotted lines to multiple other primarchs for different qualities. Angron has a dotted line to Russ, but also Guilliman because of their strong senses of honor.

One might also be able to draw a line from Angron to a more utilitarian primarch like Manus. The Warhounds and later the WE have a very direct, unsentimental, functional approach that contrasts with 'fancier' legions like the EC, UM, and BA. The IH may arrive at that place a little differently than the WE, but the end result has some similarities.

Perhaps a dotted line from Angron to the Khan for their love of combat? It's a little different for each of them, but the Khan does seem to understand Angron a little more than most of their brothers, as evidenced by his warning about judging Angron without having walked in his shoes.

 gorgon wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

1) Angron isn't sent to the gladiatorial hellhole.
2) Without the constant rage, Angron focuses on his remaining trait - he incredibly strong sense of honor and fair play, gravitating him towards the fuedal worlds and their aspects.
3) Angron brings this to his legion and the whole group get known as the 'civilized' chivalric counterpoint to Leman Russ's savagery
4) Gulliman and Angron like each other. Let that sink it.

Yeah, people often try to find each primarch's duplicate, but the reality is that one can usually draw dotted lines to multiple other primarchs for different qualities. Angron has a dotted line to Russ, but also Guilliman because of their strong senses of honor.

One might also be able to draw a line from Angron to a more utilitarian primarch like Manus. The Warhounds and later the WE have a very direct, unsentimental, functional approach that contrasts with 'fancier' legions like the EC, UM, and BA. The IH may arrive at that place a little differently than the WE, but the end result has some similarities.

Perhaps a dotted line from Angron to the Khan for their love of combat? It's a little different for each of them, but the Khan does seem to understand Angron a little more than most of their brothers, as evidenced by his warning about judging Angron without having walked in his shoes.

Then we also draw the ultimate lack of fuss legion the death guard too. Diffrent but pre heresey there armour and gear was extremely lacking in ornomation to be plain paintwork and basic armour.

Granted they contrast and clash with honour so I'd call them a pencil line.

Many of thr traits cross over heavily.

 jhe90 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

1) Angron isn't sent to the gladiatorial hellhole.
2) Without the constant rage, Angron focuses on his remaining trait - he incredibly strong sense of honor and fair play, gravitating him towards the fuedal worlds and their aspects.
3) Angron brings this to his legion and the whole group get known as the 'civilized' chivalric counterpoint to Leman Russ's savagery
4) Gulliman and Angron like each other. Let that sink it.

Yeah, people often try to find each primarch's duplicate, but the reality is that one can usually draw dotted lines to multiple other primarchs for different qualities. Angron has a dotted line to Russ, but also Guilliman because of their strong senses of honor.

One might also be able to draw a line from Angron to a more utilitarian primarch like Manus. The Warhounds and later the WE have a very direct, unsentimental, functional approach that contrasts with 'fancier' legions like the EC, UM, and BA. The IH may arrive at that place a little differently than the WE, but the end result has some similarities.

Perhaps a dotted line from Angron to the Khan for their love of combat? It's a little different for each of them, but the Khan does seem to understand Angron a little more than most of their brothers, as evidenced by his warning about judging Angron without having walked in his shoes.

Then we also draw the ultimate lack of fuss legion the death guard too. Diffrent but pre heresey there armour and gear was extremely lacking in ornomation to be plain paintwork and basic armour.

Granted they contrast and clash with honour so I'd call them a pencil line.

Many of thr traits cross over heavily.

I'd be curious to see some crossline charts. I'm not aware of a loyalist Primarch that is a powerful psyker. Then again, maybe that's another thing the Lion was lying about. Maybe the 11th or 2nd had a powerful psyker Primarch.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

1) Angron isn't sent to the gladiatorial hellhole.
2) Without the constant rage, Angron focuses on his remaining trait - he incredibly strong sense of honor and fair play, gravitating him towards the fuedal worlds and their aspects.
3) Angron brings this to his legion and the whole group get known as the 'civilized' chivalric counterpoint to Leman Russ's savagery
4) Gulliman and Angron like each other. Let that sink it.

Yeah, people often try to find each primarch's duplicate, but the reality is that one can usually draw dotted lines to multiple other primarchs for different qualities. Angron has a dotted line to Russ, but also Guilliman because of their strong senses of honor.

One might also be able to draw a line from Angron to a more utilitarian primarch like Manus. The Warhounds and later the WE have a very direct, unsentimental, functional approach that contrasts with 'fancier' legions like the EC, UM, and BA. The IH may arrive at that place a little differently than the WE, but the end result has some similarities.

Perhaps a dotted line from Angron to the Khan for their love of combat? It's a little different for each of them, but the Khan does seem to understand Angron a little more than most of their brothers, as evidenced by his warning about judging Angron without having walked in his shoes.

Then we also draw the ultimate lack of fuss legion the death guard too. Diffrent but pre heresey there armour and gear was extremely lacking in ornomation to be plain paintwork and basic armour.

Granted they contrast and clash with honour so I'd call them a pencil line.

Many of thr traits cross over heavily.

I'd be curious to see some crossline charts. I'm not aware of a loyalist Primarch that is a powerful psyker. Then again, maybe that's another thing the Lion was lying about. Maybe the 11th or 2nd had a powerful psyker Primarch.

It's been heavily implied that in one way or another all the primarchs had the potential to be powerful psykers

One thing to make note of is that, if a Primarch doesn't exactly have a good crossline, it could hint at what the fallen ones were like. Just something to note.

BrianDavion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

1) Angron isn't sent to the gladiatorial hellhole.
2) Without the constant rage, Angron focuses on his remaining trait - he incredibly strong sense of honor and fair play, gravitating him towards the fuedal worlds and their aspects.
3) Angron brings this to his legion and the whole group get known as the 'civilized' chivalric counterpoint to Leman Russ's savagery
4) Gulliman and Angron like each other. Let that sink it.

Yeah, people often try to find each primarch's duplicate, but the reality is that one can usually draw dotted lines to multiple other primarchs for different qualities. Angron has a dotted line to Russ, but also Guilliman because of their strong senses of honor.

One might also be able to draw a line from Angron to a more utilitarian primarch like Manus. The Warhounds and later the WE have a very direct, unsentimental, functional approach that contrasts with 'fancier' legions like the EC, UM, and BA. The IH may arrive at that place a little differently than the WE, but the end result has some similarities.

Perhaps a dotted line from Angron to the Khan for their love of combat? It's a little different for each of them, but the Khan does seem to understand Angron a little more than most of their brothers, as evidenced by his warning about judging Angron without having walked in his shoes.

Then we also draw the ultimate lack of fuss legion the death guard too. Diffrent but pre heresey there armour and gear was extremely lacking in ornomation to be plain paintwork and basic armour.

Granted they contrast and clash with honour so I'd call them a pencil line.

Many of thr traits cross over heavily.

I'd be curious to see some crossline charts. I'm not aware of a loyalist Primarch that is a powerful psyker. Then again, maybe that's another thing the Lion was lying about. Maybe the 11th or 2nd had a powerful psyker Primarch.

It's been heavily implied that in one way or another all the primarchs had the potential to be powerful psykers

Speaking of that doesn't Russ use a bit of psychic power at Prospero? He screams at Magnus and that just broke all his spells in progress which seems like something plain yelling shouldn't do.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

1) Angron isn't sent to the gladiatorial hellhole.
2) Without the constant rage, Angron focuses on his remaining trait - he incredibly strong sense of honor and fair play, gravitating him towards the fuedal worlds and their aspects.
3) Angron brings this to his legion and the whole group get known as the 'civilized' chivalric counterpoint to Leman Russ's savagery
4) Gulliman and Angron like each other. Let that sink it.

Yeah, people often try to find each primarch's duplicate, but the reality is that one can usually draw dotted lines to multiple other primarchs for different qualities. Angron has a dotted line to Russ, but also Guilliman because of their strong senses of honor.

One might also be able to draw a line from Angron to a more utilitarian primarch like Manus. The Warhounds and later the WE have a very direct, unsentimental, functional approach that contrasts with 'fancier' legions like the EC, UM, and BA. The IH may arrive at that place a little differently than the WE, but the end result has some similarities.

Perhaps a dotted line from Angron to the Khan for their love of combat? It's a little different for each of them, but the Khan does seem to understand Angron a little more than most of their brothers, as evidenced by his warning about judging Angron without having walked in his shoes.

Then we also draw the ultimate lack of fuss legion the death guard too. Diffrent but pre heresey there armour and gear was extremely lacking in ornomation to be plain paintwork and basic armour.

Granted they contrast and clash with honour so I'd call them a pencil line.

Many of thr traits cross over heavily.

I'd be curious to see some crossline charts. I'm not aware of a loyalist Primarch that is a powerful psyker. Then again, maybe that's another thing the Lion was lying about. Maybe the 11th or 2nd had a powerful psyker Primarch.

It's rumored that one of the lost primarchs was a psyker and may have been purged due to something related to it. It's certainly hinted at in HH when discussing what brought Russ to 'purge' at least one of the primarchs.

If you are willing to believe Magnus, Russ is the second most powerful psyhic primarch. He constantly baits and comments on Russ's psychic abilities and seems to feel the wolf lord is both a powerful psyker in his own right and debates whether Russ is not in control (and unaware of the fact) or playing some kind of cunning game in which he pretends not to be. There's some evidence that Russ's abilities are more than his sheer presence.

I think there's a dotted line of 'denial' between Magnus and Russ, and their respective Legions.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

1) Angron isn't sent to the gladiatorial hellhole.
2) Without the constant rage, Angron focuses on his remaining trait - he incredibly strong sense of honor and fair play, gravitating him towards the fuedal worlds and their aspects.
3) Angron brings this to his legion and the whole group get known as the 'civilized' chivalric counterpoint to Leman Russ's savagery
4) Gulliman and Angron like each other. Let that sink it.

Yeah, people often try to find each primarch's duplicate, but the reality is that one can usually draw dotted lines to multiple other primarchs for different qualities. Angron has a dotted line to Russ, but also Guilliman because of their strong senses of honor.

One might also be able to draw a line from Angron to a more utilitarian primarch like Manus. The Warhounds and later the WE have a very direct, unsentimental, functional approach that contrasts with 'fancier' legions like the EC, UM, and BA. The IH may arrive at that place a little differently than the WE, but the end result has some similarities.

Perhaps a dotted line from Angron to the Khan for their love of combat? It's a little different for each of them, but the Khan does seem to understand Angron a little more than most of their brothers, as evidenced by his warning about judging Angron without having walked in his shoes.

Then we also draw the ultimate lack of fuss legion the death guard too. Diffrent but pre heresey there armour and gear was extremely lacking in ornomation to be plain paintwork and basic armour.

Granted they contrast and clash with honour so I'd call them a pencil line.

Many of thr traits cross over heavily.

I'd be curious to see some crossline charts. I'm not aware of a loyalist Primarch that is a powerful psyker. Then again, maybe that's another thing the Lion was lying about. Maybe the 11th or 2nd had a powerful psyker Primarch.

This chart would be rather intresting.

Russ had some latent powers.
But I do belive his where much more defensive, and not like some of the others abilities in direct powers.

 jhe90 wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:

1) Angron isn't sent to the gladiatorial hellhole.
2) Without the constant rage, Angron focuses on his remaining trait - he incredibly strong sense of honor and fair play, gravitating him towards the fuedal worlds and their aspects.
3) Angron brings this to his legion and the whole group get known as the 'civilized' chivalric counterpoint to Leman Russ's savagery
4) Gulliman and Angron like each other. Let that sink it.

Yeah, people often try to find each primarch's duplicate, but the reality is that one can usually draw dotted lines to multiple other primarchs for different qualities. Angron has a dotted line to Russ, but also Guilliman because of their strong senses of honor.

One might also be able to draw a line from Angron to a more utilitarian primarch like Manus. The Warhounds and later the WE have a very direct, unsentimental, functional approach that contrasts with 'fancier' legions like the EC, UM, and BA. The IH may arrive at that place a little differently than the WE, but the end result has some similarities.

Perhaps a dotted line from Angron to the Khan for their love of combat? It's a little different for each of them, but the Khan does seem to understand Angron a little more than most of their brothers, as evidenced by his warning about judging Angron without having walked in his shoes.

Then we also draw the ultimate lack of fuss legion the death guard too. Diffrent but pre heresey there armour and gear was extremely lacking in ornomation to be plain paintwork and basic armour.

Granted they contrast and clash with honour so I'd call them a pencil line.

Many of thr traits cross over heavily.

I'd be curious to see some crossline charts. I'm not aware of a loyalist Primarch that is a powerful psyker. Then again, maybe that's another thing the Lion was lying about. Maybe the 11th or 2nd had a powerful psyker Primarch.

This chart would be rather intresting.

Russ had some latent powers.
But I do belive his where much more defensive, and not like some of the others abilities in direct powers.

The scary thing to me about Russ is so much of his power is in influencing things based on his mood and rages. I think you could walk up to him planning on telling him that Magnus did nothing wrong and then wake up naked with a some runic tattoos and newly pregnant wolf in your cot.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I think Angron was one of the two most important Primarchs to thwarting Chaos, which is why he (and Curze) ended up on the two shittiest worlds for a Primarch to have landed on.

Any of the 20 would have been completely fethed up by the Butcher's Nails. Any one of them... but the most important Primarch to drive them into was him.

Why are he and Curze so important to stop Chaos?

Curze is easily the most obvious- because he knew, roughly, what was going to happen. In order for there to be a Heresy, the Chaos Gods had to ensure he wouldn't or couldn't stop it. Nostramo turned him into a psychopathic, antisocial nihilist who cared for little but finding his own death.

I feel like I want to read this book, which one is it in? And darn you for making me want to read about Nightlords!

Hanksingle wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I think Angron was one of the two most important Primarchs to thwarting Chaos, which is why he (and Curze) ended up on the two shittiest worlds for a Primarch to have landed on.

Any of the 20 would have been completely fethed up by the Butcher's Nails. Any one of them... but the most important Primarch to drive them into was him.

Why are he and Curze so important to stop Chaos?

Curze is easily the most obvious- because he knew, roughly, what was going to happen. In order for there to be a Heresy, the Chaos Gods had to ensure he wouldn't or couldn't stop it. Nostramo turned him into a psychopathic, antisocial nihilist who cared for little but finding his own death.

I feel like I want to read this book, which one is it in? And darn you for making me want to read about Nightlords!

It's a short story... I think maybe The Lightning Tower.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's one of the more notable short stories. Dorn confronts Curze over his visions and Curze damned near kills Dorn with his bare hands. It's great.