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 Vaktathi wrote:
It's fair to point out that the asylum option is open to an incredible amount of abuse. It is, and it's hard to avoid that.

At the same time, the idea that every illegal alien is taking a job from a US citizen is also spurious, labor markets are far more complex than that, and the more effective action on that front is probably more on the labor demand side.

Here's an interesting report about the refugee crisis in Africa, where there are vastly greater numbers of displaced people than in Europe or the USA.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/26/europe-learn-africa-refugees-solutions

TL/DR: It's more effective to allow refugees to work and move about the country than to stick them in camps. It lets them support themselves rather than rely on aid, and it also helps generate more employment and businesses among the native population.

There is more interesting stuff at the Oxford University website https://www.rsc.ox.ac.uk/

 Frazzled wrote:
If there are ten jobs and illegals take five for below minimum wage then 1. Citizens have list five jobs. 2. The wages of the other jobs will fall.

Or 3, like Trump they will get cheaper replacements abroad if illegals aren't easily found. Trump is/was one of the business owners that did exactly this and most big Republican donors have the exact same issues. This isn't going to change by clamping down on illegal immigrants. They only represent a 1/5th of total yearly immigration. Meanwhile illegal immigration has been trending down for years and years, but those jobs haven't come back or wages back up.

In the spirit of the good side of humanity here is a super story about a girl on a plane using sign language to communicate with a deaf and blind man.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44601944

I know it's not politics but I think we can all sometimes take a break from slagging each other off and appreciate some genuine kindness and selfless helpfullness.

 Frazzled wrote:
1. Simple logic says that if they are not going for those jobs When They Previously Did, that something has changed.

Who is "they" in this scenario? American citizens?

One would assume that the change is that those wages don't cover actually having a living despite being strenuous jobs with long hours and potential health hazards in some fields.

2. I am fine with making it a felony. How about you?

Funny, I could have swore we already had something on the books about this...

Here's a fun little bit:

"Until 2012, there was virtually no movement in Congress to deal with the problem of the 11 million undocumented immigrants living in the United States since the passage of the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986, which granted amnesty to many of the 3.2 million illegal immigrants living in the United States."

You can also read the bit about how employers started using subcontractors rather than directly hiring themselves.

 Kilkrazy wrote:


TL/DR: It's more effective to allow refugees to work and move about the country than to stick them in camps. It lets them support themselves rather than rely on aid, and it also helps generate more employment and businesses among the native population.

Easy for Africa to say, they don't have MS-13

I agree though, government is trying to tackle a problem by starting at the end.

Africa has Boko Haram, the Lord's Resistance Army, Somalian pirates and warlords, etc, etc. These are some reasons why they've got so many refugees.

It doesn't affect the practical question of what is the best way for the refugees to be sustained.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Africa has Boko Haram, the Lord's Resistance Army, Somalian pirates and warlords, etc, etc. These are some reasons why they've got so many refugees.

It doesn't affect the practical question of what is the best way for the refugees to be sustained.

Yes the list is depressingly long (although certain Central American countries have higher body counts than most war zones), borders also mean very little when it comes to ethnic groups in Africa, so refugees from another country or from a different part of the country is less of a difference. Around the West is always tends to have racial/ethnic undertones. But Trump no more cares for African refugees than those from Central America.

Going into Africa is prolly a bit of topic, but the EU always comes up with the worst ideas in that regard/in regard to refugees by stranding them in quasi dictatorships.

To give a wonderful example of the idea of 'family farms', this is a thing happening right now in North Carolina.

The governor(a Democrat) vetoed the overwhelmingly Republican supported bill to curb the ability of property owners adjacent to the farm to sue for nuisances created by the industrial operations of these farms(which at one time were what you might think of as a 'mom and pop' operation but are now full fledged industrial farming operations), so Republicans just pushed through claiming they're "protecting the little guy".

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
It's fair to point out that the asylum option is open to an incredible amount of abuse. It is, and it's hard to avoid that.

At the same time, the idea that every illegal alien is taking a job from a US citizen is also spurious, labor markets are far more complex than that, and the more effective action on that front is probably more on the labor demand side.

Here's an interesting report about the refugee crisis in Africa, where there are vastly greater numbers of displaced people than in Europe or the USA.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/26/europe-learn-africa-refugees-solutions

TL/DR: It's more effective to allow refugees to work and move about the country than to stick them in camps. It lets them support themselves rather than rely on aid, and it also helps generate more employment and businesses among the native population.

There is more interesting stuff at the Oxford University website https://www.rsc.ox.ac.uk/

aye, camps are inherently wasteful, not only are the people inside not producing anything, they have to be provided for and supported.

 Frazzled wrote:
Horse gak. They don't do them because they don't pay much

Sure, but broadly speaking they were never high paying jobs.

Also, probably more relevant in in the world today, there is a very real negative social/cultural perception to a lot of these jobs, and even at much higher than minimum wage theyre not pulling in native US workers.

http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration

Growers who can afford it have already begun raising worker pay well beyond minimum wage. Wages for crop production in California increased by 13% from 2010 to 2015, twice as fast as average pay in the state, according to a Los Angeles Times analysis of data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Today, farmworkers in the state earn about $30,000 a year if they work full time — about half the overall average pay in California. Most work fewer hours.

Some farmers are even giving laborers benefits normally reserved for white-collar professionals, like 401(k) plans, health insurance, subsidized housing and profit-sharing bonuses. Full-timers at Silverado Farming, for example, get most of those sweeteners, plus 10 paid vacation days, eight paid holidays, and can earn their hourly rate to take English classes.

But the raises and new perks have not tempted native-born Americans to leave their day jobs for the fields. Nine in 10 agriculture workers in California are still foreign born, and more than half are undocumented, according to a federal survey.

Instead, companies growing high-value crops, like Cabernet Sauvignon grapes in Napa, are luring employees from fields in places like Stockton that produce cheaper wine grapes or less profitable fruits and vegetables.

Growers who can’t raise wages are losing their employees and dealing with it by mechanizing, downsizing or switching to less labor-intensive crops.

and are now excluded.

That sounds like a job for enforcement against employers if they are sidestepping employment law and refusing to hire legal workers. If it cost a company more to get caught than their monthly labor savings on hiring illegal labor, they might have less of an incentive.

I'm all for hammering the bejeesus out of companies that intentionally employ illegal labor over legal workers. If a company knowingly hires illegal workers so they dont have to pay real wages, then slap management/owners directly with felony charges that carry real prison time, and assess the impact of lost wages to the community and fine the company double that amount, and put it towards local schools and employment programs. Make them care about that I-9.

Construction
Manufacturing
Retail
Maintenance
Agriculture

These were all fields poor white, black etc. Did. My dad was a sharecropper. I did manufacturing and maintenance.

Declines in these fields face lots of pressures. Automation and mechanization are broadly much more powerful forces there. Sharecropping was killed by mechanization and industry consolidation, not cheap labor. Manufacuting has been hit with outsourcing to other nations and automation. Retail is currently facing a market apocalypse thanks to the Internet. Not to say that illegal labor doesnt depress wages, but lets be real in that most jobs lost havent been to illegal immigrants, its been to machines, and if the immigrants disappear, it will probably be machines, not legal labor, that take over the bulk of the work. Same way if fast food places are replacing workers with kiosks in many places.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Other news- SCOTUS rules people can't be required to pay Public Union dues for government jobs.

that will probably not help wages. I get the arguments in both sides about the free rider problem, but I dont think this is gonna make anything better for the American worker in the long run.



Former Fox News exec Bill Shine in talks to join White House: reports

Bill Shine, the former co-president of Fox News, is in talks to become the next White House communications director, according to multiple reports.

Shine, who was ousted from the network last year for his handling of sexual harassment scandals at the network, has reportedly met with President Trump in recent weeks about the position.

The New York Times reported that Trump has already offered Shine the job, but the move has not yet been finalized. A White House spokesperson did not immediately respond to The Hill's request for comment.

Well, that's gonna be yet another gak storm, though I guess he's tight with Hannity so there's not much surprise as to why he's the Tangerine Dream's choice.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
In the spirit of the good side of humanity here is a super story about a girl on a plane using sign language to communicate with a deaf and blind man.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44601944

I know it's not politics but I think we can all sometimes take a break from slagging each other off and appreciate some genuine kindness and selfless helpfullness.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Africa has Boko Haram, the Lord's Resistance Army, Somalian pirates and warlords, etc, etc. These are some reasons why they've got so many refugees.

It doesn't affect the practical question of what is the best way for the refugees to be sustained.

Cartels would go through them like gak through a goose.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Africa has Boko Haram, the Lord's Resistance Army, Somalian pirates and warlords, etc, etc. These are some reasons why they've got so many refugees.

It doesn't affect the practical question of what is the best way for the refugees to be sustained.

Cartels would go through them like gak through a goose.

Our criminals can beat your criminals.....?

They aren't even our criminals, they are Mexico's.

Something something they took er jerbs.

Well i suppose its time to sound the death knell of Roe Vs Wade

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/27/politics/anthony-kennedy-retires/index.html

Well, at first glance it doesn't say when he is actually retiring.

If he retires after January, Trump won't get to replace him according to the GOP.

 d-usa wrote:
Well, at first glance it doesn't say when he is actually retiring.

If he retires after January, Trump won't get to replace him according to the GOP.

July 31st this year

I'm sure Trump and his party will agree that a president shouldn't nominate a justice in the last four years of his term and wait until our new president is chosen in 2020. The voters must have a say!

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Well, at first glance it doesn't say when he is actually retiring.

If he retires after January, Trump won't get to replace him according to the GOP.

July 31st this year

Well, we must wait for the people to pick who they want to fill the vacancy. Time for early elections.

Also, I look forward to seeing the liberal justice Trump nominates, given his party's position on the importance of maintaining balance in the court.

Coming from a country ravaged by emigration, I always find people whining about immigration pretty funny. "Oh poor me, my country is so awesome people will risk everything to come and live here! My life is so hard!" cue violin.

Emigration is much worse. My country used to have 8.4 million people in 1840. It dropped to 2.4 million due to famine and emigration. Nowadays it is 6 million. The impact that has on a society...it goes pretty friggin' deep.

 d-usa wrote:
They aren't even our criminals, they are Mexico's.

Something something they took er jerbs.

MS-13 started in Los Angeles, by immigrants from El Salvador.

They are also not a Mexican Drug Cartel.

jouso wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
They aren't even our criminals, they are Mexico's.

Something something they took er jerbs.

MS-13 started in Los Angeles, by immigrants from El Salvador.

While true, D-USA was referring to the comment that The Mexican Cartels would go through the various African groups like a goose. MS-13 is not classified as a Cartel, although several of their members do work with/for the Sinaloa cartel in Mexico.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Well, at first glance it doesn't say when he is actually retiring.

If he retires after January, Trump won't get to replace him according to the GOP.

July 31st this year

now you will see why conservatives held their nose and booted for Trump over HRC.

I am betting on the judge guy who comments on Fox...

Why should Trump even get a pick?

Voters should get to decide with the next general election.

 d-usa wrote:
Why should Trump even get a pick?

Voters should get to decide with the next general election.

What? That's not how it works.

That is how it worked last time.

 Frazzled wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Why should Trump even get a pick?

Voters should get to decide with the next general election.

What? That's not how it works.

\\

That's not what Trump, Mitch, and the majority of voters for the GOP said.

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Why should Trump even get a pick?

Voters should get to decide with the next general election.

What? That's not how it works.

\\

That's not what Trump, Mitch, and the majority of voters for the GOP said.

Not only that, but as the election day came closer and it looked like Hillary would win, there were some GOP senators saying they should refuse Hillary for all four of her years, as well.

 Da Boss wrote:
That is how it worked last time.

Because Democrats didn't control the Senate.

 d-usa wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Why should Trump even get a pick?

Voters should get to decide with the next general election.

What? That's not how it works.

\\

That's not what Trump, Mitch, and the majority of voters for the GOP said.

And Frazz, Relapse etc. dare to call me a partisan