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MarkNorfolk wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/11/trump-slams-germany-at-nato-summit-says-its-a-captive-of-russia.html

Fake news

Reality Check....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44794688

Right - I already conceded that if you read my post. So really - you are hating on Trump because he said "energy" not "Oil and natural gas". It is quite obvious what he ment and it's being taken out of context to make him look stupider than he really is. He has a valid point and you are ignoring it to make him look stupid...there is a word for that on the internet...I think it's called trolling.

 KTG17 wrote:
Get used to him being around. He will most likely win re-election.

Plz no! I’d take Pence every day, all day long!

 whembly wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Is this the greatest act of trolling in human history, or one of the worst examples of wilful ignorance?

Trump is having a press conference with our Prime Minister and has said that Boris Johnson would be a great Prime Minister.

Johnson is widely expected to launch a leadership challenge to take our Prime Minister's job...




This is comedy gold. America, forget national pride, economy, jobs, defence, living standards.

I want another 4 years of Trump doing this. Re-elect Trump in 2020

No...no... it’s Corburn Labour Party who wins.... amirite?

Corbyn's probably in a worse state than May. Half of his party hate him more than they do May.

British political parties are shambolic right now. The government is a mess. The opposition is a mess.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Right - I already conceded that if you read my post. So really - you are hating on Trump because he said "energy" not "Oil and natural gas". It is quite obvious what he ment and it's being taken out of context to make him look stupider than he really is. He has a valid point and you are ignoring it to make him look stupid...there is a word for that on the internet...I think it's called trolling.

Trump doesn't need his words taken out of context to make him look more stupid than he really is, because he really is that stupid.

An intelligent person understands that oil and gas are not synonymous with energy. Expecting the President of the United States to know the difference is not unfair, it is expecting him to have a basic understanding of terms he should be familiar with as they are part of his job.

 Ustrello wrote:
Except the fact that the stock market took a huge loss and still has not gotten back to Obama numbers

I don't think this is accurate in terms of raw numbers and not percentages. The highest DJI was roughly 19,000 under Obama, and it's roughly 25,000 now.

It would be accurate to say that he's managed to wipe out the entire years worth of growth with the trade war nonsense though.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Is this the greatest act of trolling in human history, or one of the worst examples of wilful ignorance?

Trump is having a press conference with our Prime Minister and has said that Boris Johnson would be a great Prime Minister.

Johnson is widely expected to launch a leadership challenge to take our Prime Minister's job...




This is comedy gold. America, forget national pride, economy, jobs, defence, living standards.

I want another 4 years of Trump doing this. Re-elect Trump in 2020

No...no... it’s Corburn Labour Party who wins.... amirite?

Corbyn's probably in a worse state than May. Half of his party hate him more than they do May.

British political parties are shambolic right now. The government is a mess. The opposition is a mess.

Eh? I thought Corbin was a Russian stooge at one point... Mr KGB Trump would do all he can to get him elected... right? Right???




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ouze wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
Except the fact that the stock market took a huge loss and still has not gotten back to Obama numbers

I don't think this is accurate in terms of raw numbers and not percentages. The highest DJI was roughly 19,000 under Obama, and it's roughly 25,000 now.

It would be accurate to say that he's managed to wipe out the entire years worth of growth with the trade war nonsense though.

This.

Never been a fan of trade wars where only the highest connected benefits during the turmoil.

 Ouze wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:
Except the fact that the stock market took a huge loss and still has not gotten back to Obama numbers

I don't think this is accurate in terms of raw numbers and not percentages. The highest DJI was roughly 19,000 under Obama, and it's roughly 25,000 now.

It would be accurate to say that he's managed to wipe out the entire years worth of growth with the trade war nonsense though.

You are right I misspoke, he has stopped the general upward trend and brought it down.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/11/trump-slams-germany-at-nato-summit-says-its-a-captive-of-russia.html

So none of this is true? cnbc is fake news I guess.
It seems you are all overrating to make trump seem dumber than he is. Which is very typical so I am not surprised.

Again - bad faith. Not interested in the argument - only interested in making Trump look like an idiot.

Lets focus on the issue. Trump attacks German dependence on Russian Gas supplies (really all Europe) Which this liberal article claims "60-70 of gas supplies" come from Russia. With the Nord 2 pipeline (11 billion dollar project - will most likely increase dependence in the future).

Liberal response "You said energy not gas! Moron!!!"

You care more about Russia trolling people on Facebook and declare it as direct interference in our election process. Yet - Russia actually solidifying a monopoly on on European Gas imports...that is what...fake news?

It is the implication that Europe is somehow totally controlled by Russia just because it imports Russian gas that people have an issue with. Russia is not an enemy nation or anything. Just because Germany and Russia disagree on some issues doesn't mean they can't do business anymore. Russia signs deals with Germany and other European countries for the export of gas. It is bound to the conditions of those deals which means that it can't just stop supplying gas or anything and therefore the gas exports don't exactly translate into 'total control'. If Russia were to break its contracts, it would be forced to pay massive fines and European countries would just look for a different supplier. Even more so because Russia needs the profits of those gas exports. So those pipelines go both ways. Through importing gas, Germany controls Russia as much as Russia controls Germany.

Which Russia are we talking about though - the Russia that interferes with national elections of democratic nations? The one with a leader so terrible that we shouldn't even engage with him in diplomatic discussions? Cause it is quite clear that the liberal media is painting this Russia as an enemy. Yet - they are totally unconcerned about this "enemy" having great leverage over all of Europe? It's very hypocritical is all I am saying.

IMO - it is all overblown. Russia is not the enemy. Russia isn't doing anything to interfere with elections that other western nations also take part in. I don't see Russia as an enemy. Though - any nation that is dependent on another nation is under leverage. These are acceptable points be be brought up and discussed.

 whembly wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Is this the greatest act of trolling in human history, or one of the worst examples of wilful ignorance?

Trump is having a press conference with our Prime Minister and has said that Boris Johnson would be a great Prime Minister.

Johnson is widely expected to launch a leadership challenge to take our Prime Minister's job...




This is comedy gold. America, forget national pride, economy, jobs, defence, living standards.

I want another 4 years of Trump doing this. Re-elect Trump in 2020

No...no... it’s Corburn Labour Party who wins.... amirite?

Corbyn's probably in a worse state than May. Half of his party hate him more than they do May.

British political parties are shambolic right now. The government is a mess. The opposition is a mess.

Eh? I thought Corbin was a Russian stooge at one point... Mr KGB Trump would do all he can to get him elected... right? Right???

No. That was just a partisan smear job discredited by every impartial body supposedly involved. The claim was that he passed information to Czechoslovakia, which was denied by those who have spent 25 years analysing the files of the communist-era Czech intelligence services, as well as our own intelligence services.

<==Has multiple degrees in economics and business, currently working at a major multbillion dollar industrial supply distributor doing actual economist things.

I get to see the effects of these trade wars first hand. I've been spending a lot of overtime of late dealing with it. As I've noted before, we are seeing four times the normal volume of price increases this time of year, all because of Tarriffs. If you need a replacement condenser fan motor, it'll cost you about 7-10% more now than it did in January, whereas the year before the increase was only about 2%, about in line with inflation. Most any of our products that contain a lot of metal are seeing that kind of hit.

 Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/11/trump-slams-germany-at-nato-summit-says-its-a-captive-of-russia.html

So none of this is true? cnbc is fake news I guess.
It seems you are all overrating to make trump seem dumber than he is. Which is very typical so I am not surprised.

Again - bad faith. Not interested in the argument - only interested in making Trump look like an idiot.

Lets focus on the issue. Trump attacks German dependence on Russian Gas supplies (really all Europe) Which this liberal article claims "60-70 of gas supplies" come from Russia. With the Nord 2 pipeline (11 billion dollar project - will most likely increase dependence in the future).


Liberal response "You said energy not gas! Moron!!!"

That distinction is important because natural gas is only one portion of Germany's energy portfolio, the 60-70% number is *all* foreign energy sources (coal, oil, NG, etc), of which Natural Gas and Russian products are only a fraction.

Meanwhile, Germany has increased stockpiled reserves in the event of a cutoff, and has been doing so since 2014. Russia is heavily reliant on the revenue from gas exports (especially the Russian state itself) and cutting that off would be at least as painful for Russia as anyone else.

Now, there are some fair points about Germany and Russian gas, but not anything near what Trump is portraying. Again, that distinction between Energy and Gas is important, and Trump doesn't appear to understand that.

You care more about Russia trolling people on Facebook
and declare it as direct interference in our election process. Yet - Russia actually solidifying a monopoly on on European Gas imports...that is what...fake news?

it's not about Russia trolling people on Facebook, and if you knew anything about the subject you'd know that. It's about Russia impersonating Americans and creating astroturf political groups to sow internal discord while engaging in direct hacking attempts on US election systems.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Right - I already conceded that if you read my post. So really - you are hating on Trump because he said "energy" not "Oil and natural gas". It is quite obvious what he ment and it's being taken out of context to make him look stupider than he really is. He has a valid point and you are ignoring it to make him look stupid...there is a word for that on the internet...I think it's called trolling.

Trump doesn't need his words taken out of context to make him look more stupid than he really is, because he really is that stupid.

An intelligent person understands that oil and gas are not synonymous with energy. Expecting the President of the United States to know the difference is not unfair, it is expecting him to have a basic understanding of terms he should be familiar with as they are part of his job.

He knows the difference between oil and energy though. He's a graduate of an Ivey League College.

Trump said Putin said he didn't though. Can't argue with that, ironclad stuff. Checkmate libtards!*


*and intelligence services, analysts, investigative journalists, and anyone with half a brain the world over.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Right - I already conceded that if you read my post. So really - you are hating on Trump because he said "energy" not "Oil and natural gas". It is quite obvious what he ment and it's being taken out of context to make him look stupider than he really is. He has a valid point and you are ignoring it to make him look stupid...there is a word for that on the internet...I think it's called trolling.

Trump doesn't need his words taken out of context to make him look more stupid than he really is, because he really is that stupid.

An intelligent person understands that oil and gas are not synonymous with energy. Expecting the President of the United States to know the difference is not unfair, it is expecting him to have a basic understanding of terms he should be familiar with as they are part of his job.

He knows the difference between oil and energy though. He's a graduate of an Ivey League College.

This is a guy who wants intelligence briefings in one page bullet point form, are you sure about that

 Ustrello wrote:



Except the fact that the stock market took a huge loss and still has not gotten back to Obama numbers, despite the fact that there are corporate lobbyists starting to go against the tariffs as posted about earlier in the thread.

As for arm chair economists I would look into the mirror before speaking again

Which stock market are you looking at? The US stock market exploded when Trump won election and blew past any peak under Obama and remains so.

https://www.google.com/search?q=INDEXDJX:.DJI&e=4112296&tbm=fin&biw=1847&bih=885#scso=uid_edRIW7f4BoLr_AaFur-QAw_5:0

There was a correction this year when things got frothy but so what? Corrections happen. Buying opportunity.

 KTG17 wrote:
Correction happen. Buying opportunity.

I suspect there are going to be some pretty big corrections over the next year. A lot of buying opportunities to come.

 Ouze wrote:

 KTG17 wrote:
Correction happen. Buying opportunity.

I suspect there are going to be some pretty big corrections over the next year. A lot of buying opportunities to come.

Well then keep some cash on hand.

 KTG17 wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:



Except the fact that the stock market took a huge loss and still has not gotten back to Obama numbers, despite the fact that there are corporate lobbyists starting to go against the tariffs as posted about earlier in the thread.

As for arm chair economists I would look into the mirror before speaking again

Which stock market are you looking at? The US stock market exploded when Trump won election and blew past any peak under Obama and remains so.

https://www.google.com/search?q=INDEXDJX:.DJI&e=4112296&tbm=fin&biw=1847&bih=885#scso=uid_edRIW7f4BoLr_AaFur-QAw_5:0

There was a correction this year when things got frothy but so what? Corrections happen. Buying opportunity.

It kept the same trend it was going at under Obama and flopped under trump and is still not recovering. As Ouze said, its not going to get better

 KTG17 wrote:
[Well then keep some cash on hand.

TBH I know I should be worried about what will probably be a recession on the horizon - the very near horizon most likely - but I'm doing pretty well personally so as you say, I'm saving cash to buy.

That's going to be pretty good for me personally but I still can't get behind bad governance even if it works out for me well in the short term because the short term can sometimes become not so short term when the governance is bad enough.

Rosenstein in a press conference right now is announcing indictments against multiple Russians, who he states worked directly for the GRU, Russia's main intelligence unit. Rosenstein lays out a case for Russia illegally hacking the information, then distributing it through their own false ops (DCleaks, Guccifer 2.0), and also using other sources (not named, but wikileaks).

Rosenstein finished with a point on how the FBI is conducting the case, pointing out that the people and anonymous sources making claims about the inquiry have no inside knowledge. He did not attack congress, but he did name them, so the inference was pretty clear.

Rosenstein notably didn't mention the victims directly, referring instead to things like 'a political committee'. He later made this point explicit, stating that the political affiliation of the victim should not matter, it should offend all americans that any organisation was targeted by a foreign power.

The timing might be coincidental, but probably not. Coming straight after the Republican house committee decided that logic, reason and not even personal dignity would stop them inventing stupid conspiracy nonsense about Strzok, just before Trump's private meeting with Putin, and in the context of Benczkowski's appointment as a Trump loyalist inside the DoJ, it's pretty clear Rosenstein picked his moment.

He also picked his battle. People expected this was going to be the Cohen indictment, but this is a smarter play. Cohen is inherently political, and his crimes are serious but they're not existential threats. FOX News and the rest of the Trump media could minimise the seriousness of Cohen's behaviour, and use that as a wedge to pretend the whole thing is just partisan politics. That can't be done with Russian intel ops manipulating US democracy.


Also, it's worth listening to Rosenstein's statement just for how it stands in stark relief to the crapshow the Republicans put on yesterday. Rosenstein didn't speculate, or use whackadoo flights of fancy to turn SMS messages in to the only evidence needed to declare a deep state conspiracy circle. Instead Rosenstein talked like a guy who had an actual case against some people, talking about the specific criminal acts they are alleged of.

Seriously, if anyone out there is still so deep in the hole they can't see how pathetic the GOP position is on Trump/Russia/Mueller, just watch some of yesterday's GOP lunacy, then watch Rosenstein today.

 Ustrello wrote:

 KTG17 wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:


Except the fact that the stock market took a huge loss and still has not gotten back to Obama numbers, despite the fact that there are corporate lobbyists starting to go against the tariffs as posted about earlier in the thread.

As for arm chair economists I would look into the mirror before speaking again

Which stock market are you looking at? The US stock market exploded when Trump won election and blew past any peak under Obama and remains so.

https://www.google.com/search?q=INDEXDJX:.DJI&e=4112296&tbm=fin&biw=1847&bih=885#scso=uid_edRIW7f4BoLr_AaFur-QAw_5:0

There was a correction this year when things got frothy but so what? Corrections happen. Buying opportunity.

It kept the same trend it was going at under Obama and flopped under trump and is still not recovering. As Ouze said, its not going to get better

Did you look at my link? Look at the last 5 years on the Dow and tell me there were no dips under Obama.

Obviously you do not follow the market, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Right - I already conceded that if you read my post. So really - you are hating on Trump because he said "energy" not "Oil and natural gas". It is quite obvious what he ment and it's being taken out of context to make him look stupider than he really is. He has a valid point and you are ignoring it to make him look stupid...there is a word for that on the internet...I think it's called trolling.

Trump doesn't need his words taken out of context to make him look more stupid than he really is, because he really is that stupid.

An intelligent person understands that oil and gas are not synonymous with energy. Expecting the President of the United States to know the difference is not unfair, it is expecting him to have a basic understanding of terms he should be familiar with as they are part of his job.

He knows the difference between oil and energy though. He's a graduate of an Ivey League College.

Either he didn't know the difference or he dishonestly misrepresented the facts.
Pick one.

As for Ivy League college. So what?
That was 50 years ago. The man is 70+ with a malfunctioning mind.

 Xenomancers wrote:

MarkNorfolk wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/11/trump-slams-germany-at-nato-summit-says-its-a-captive-of-russia.html

Fake news

Reality Check....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44794688

Right - I already conceded that if you read my post. So really - you are hating on Trump because he said "energy" not "Oil and natural gas". It is quite obvious what he ment and it's being taken out of context to make him look stupider than he really is. He has a valid point and you are ignoring it to make him look stupid...there is a word for that on the internet...I think it's called trolling.

Is there a similar explanation for his maths when he claimed that the USA provides 90% of NATO funding rather than the 67% they actually do?

It's not a case of his muddling words. He just chucks out whatever 'facts' he fancies at the time, safely confident that the bulk of the news his supporters consume will omit any fact checking and call any challenge fake news.

 KTG17 wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 KTG17 wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:


Except the fact that the stock market took a huge loss and still has not gotten back to Obama numbers, despite the fact that there are corporate lobbyists starting to go against the tariffs as posted about earlier in the thread.

As for arm chair economists I would look into the mirror before speaking again

Which stock market are you looking at? The US stock market exploded when Trump won election and blew past any peak under Obama and remains so.

https://www.google.com/search?q=INDEXDJX:.DJI&e=4112296&tbm=fin&biw=1847&bih=885#scso=uid_edRIW7f4BoLr_AaFur-QAw_5:0

There was a correction this year when things got frothy but so what? Corrections happen. Buying opportunity.

It kept the same trend it was going at under Obama and flopped under trump and is still not recovering. As Ouze said, its not going to get better

Did you look at my link? Look at the last 5 years on the Dow and tell me there were no dips under Obama.

Obviously you do not follow the market, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Goal post moving.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nfe wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

MarkNorfolk wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/11/trump-slams-germany-at-nato-summit-says-its-a-captive-of-russia.html

Fake news

Reality Check....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44794688

Right - I already conceded that if you read my post. So really - you are hating on Trump because he said "energy" not "Oil and natural gas". It is quite obvious what he ment and it's being taken out of context to make him look stupider than he really is. He has a valid point and you are ignoring it to make him look stupid...there is a word for that on the internet...I think it's called trolling.

I there a similar explanation for his maths when he claimed that the USA provides 90% of NATO funding rather than the 67% they actually do?

How about "Hillary sold 20% of US' uranium to Russia"?

 Xenomancers wrote:


IMO - it is all overblown. Russia is not the enemy. Russia isn't doing anything to interfere with elections that other western nations also take part in. I don't see Russia as an enemy. Though - any nation that is dependent on another nation is under leverage. These are acceptable points be be brought up and discussed.

Literal minutes after this post, the US files indictments against a dozen Russian military intelligence officers for actively interfering in US elections

 sebster wrote:


Seriously, if anyone out there is still so deep in the hole they can't see how pathetic the GOP position is on Trump/Russia/Mueller, just watch some of yesterday's GOP lunacy, then watch Rosenstein today.

It's...quite a remarkable thing to br sure.

 Vaktathi wrote:
<==Has multiple degrees in economics and business, currently working at a major multbillion dollar industrial supply distributor doing actual economist things.

I get to see the effects of these trade wars first hand. I've been spending a lot of overtime of late dealing with it. As I've noted before, we are seeing four times the normal volume of price increases this time of year, all because of Tarriffs. If you need a replacement condenser fan motor, it'll cost you about 7-10% more now than it did in January, whereas the year before the increase was only about 2%, about in line with inflation. Most any of our products that contain a lot of metal are seeing that kind of hit.

 Xenomancers wrote:
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/11/trump-slams-germany-at-nato-summit-says-its-a-captive-of-russia.html

So none of this is true? cnbc is fake news I guess.
It seems you are all overrating to make trump seem dumber than he is. Which is very typical so I am not surprised.

Again - bad faith. Not interested in the argument - only interested in making Trump look like an idiot.

Lets focus on the issue. Trump attacks German dependence on Russian Gas supplies (really all Europe) Which this liberal article claims "60-70 of gas supplies" come from Russia. With the Nord 2 pipeline (11 billion dollar project - will most likely increase dependence in the future).


Liberal response "You said energy not gas! Moron!!!"

That distinction is important because natural gas is only one portion of Germany's energy portfolio, the 60-70% number is *all* foreign energy sources (coal, oil, NG, etc), of which Natural Gas and Russian products are only a fraction.

Meanwhile, Germany has increased stockpiled reserves in the event of a cutoff, and has been doing so since 2014. Russia is heavily reliant on the revenue from gas exports (especially the Russian state itself) and cutting that off would be at least as painful for Russia as anyone else.

Now, there are some fair points about Germany and Russian gas, but not anything near what Trump is portraying. Again, that distinction between Energy and Gas is important, and Trump doesn't appear to understand that.

You care more about Russia trolling people on Facebook
and declare it as direct interference in our election process. Yet - Russia actually solidifying a monopoly on on European Gas imports...that is what...fake news?

it's not about Russia trolling people on Facebook, and if you knew anything about the subject you'd know that. It's about Russia impersonating Americans and creating astroturf political groups to sow internal discord while engaging in direct hacking attempts on US election systems.

Yeah the claim is a big difference but to have a fair conversation with someone it is best to clarify an outrageously wrong claim. "Surely you mean oil and gas Mr. President because total energy from Russia is much closer the 20% - the 60-70% figure - you must mean Natural gas and Oil" "Yes, that is what i meant ofc."
That is how intelligent conversations go. I assure you - if you were in Trumps position and I was a reporter. I could take something out of context to make you look like an idiot too. Unless you are like - Abe Lincoln level at speaking in public. I'd just like to see a lot less of this in public discussion in general. Someone says something on a podcast and it gets taken out of context and then half the country thinks their a racist when in fact what they were saying was anti-racist. Taking things out of context is quite vile. Trump really doesn't need any help to look stupid ether. Just let him do it to himself.

Totally relevant to the subject - when having a discussion it really helps to no assume everyone is an idiot. It's not nice to say things like "If you knew anything about the subject". Otherwise you just end up with conversations resulting in "I'm smarter than you" "No! I'm smarter than you".

I know about the subject. I hear about it constantly. Did any hacking attempts by Russia result in voter fraud or prevent anyone from voting? Haven't heard anything about that. They posted misinformation on facebook. No different that fox news posting misinformation on facebook. It is all overblown political nonsense. You seem like a smart guy to me.

Are you aware that every government is constantly trying to hack each other at all times? I can easily write off a Russian hacking attempt because it's happening constantly and we are doing it to. There is nothing we can do to stop it ether short of...shutting down the internet. Yeah - not happening.

 KTG17 wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:

 KTG17 wrote:

 Ustrello wrote:


Except the fact that the stock market took a huge loss and still has not gotten back to Obama numbers, despite the fact that there are corporate lobbyists starting to go against the tariffs as posted about earlier in the thread.

As for arm chair economists I would look into the mirror before speaking again

Which stock market are you looking at? The US stock market exploded when Trump won election and blew past any peak under Obama and remains so.

https://www.google.com/search?q=INDEXDJX:.DJI&e=4112296&tbm=fin&biw=1847&bih=885#scso=uid_edRIW7f4BoLr_AaFur-QAw_5:0

There was a correction this year when things got frothy but so what? Corrections happen. Buying opportunity.

It kept the same trend it was going at under Obama and flopped under trump and is still not recovering. As Ouze said, its not going to get better

Did you look at my link? Look at the last 5 years on the Dow and tell me there were no dips under Obama.

Obviously you do not follow the market, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Actually I have been investing since right around when Obama was elected, and I have lost more money under trump. He took an absolute gift of a market and lost 3k points in a month, Obama took a housing market burst and raised it 14k points by the end.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


IMO - it is all overblown. Russia is not the enemy. Russia isn't doing anything to interfere with elections that other western nations also take part in. I don't see Russia as an enemy. Though - any nation that is dependent on another nation is under leverage. These are acceptable points be be brought up and discussed.

Literal minutes after this post, the US files indictments against a dozen Russian military intelligence officers for actively interfering in US elections

 sebster wrote:


Seriously, if anyone out there is still so deep in the hole they can't see how pathetic the GOP position is on Trump/Russia/Mueller, just watch some of yesterday's GOP lunacy, then watch Rosenstein today.

It's...quite a remarkable thing to br sure.

I am not saying it's not happening. I'm just saying it's happening everywhere.

Curious. How does a US indictment against a Russian intelligence officer work? I assume it's going to go to some agency with no power - Russia will deny it's even happening and really the indictment is just an attempt to make the wasted resources in the investigation were worth while.
Again - I honestly have no idea how that works. How does it work?

 Ouze wrote:

 KTG17 wrote:
[Well then keep some cash on hand.

TBH I know I should be worried about what will probably be a recession on the horizon - the very near horizon most likely - but I'm doing pretty well personally so as you say, I'm saving cash to buy.

That's going to be pretty good for me personally but I still can't get behind bad governance even if it works out for me well in the short term because the short term can sometimes become not so short term when the governance is bad enough.

I understand what you are saying, but no we are fine for awhile and corrections are a normal occurring event in the stock market. It just means prices have gotten ahead of themselves because of human nature. Bitcoin got out of control too. Want to blame its crash on Trump as well? No, most people just came to their senses.

I think the key to the next recession is employment. yes inflation and rates are important, but so long as there are more jobs than people it means jobs are out there. People with jobs are going to spend money. When they stop spending money will be the problem. I don't see that happening until there is an economic slowdown that raises unemployment.

And recessions are naturally occurring as well. Its sucks that they happen, but like everything else, things get ahead of themselves and there is a correction. That is essentially what a recession is. The Fed spends a lot of time to try and prevent them but even with all their degrees and experience they cannot prevent all of them either.

The trade issues had to be confronted. Obama had his hands tied int he first term to do much, but in the second didn't do crap about it. I am in IT. Many of you are as well. I was angry for a long time seeing Americans getting laid off in place of H1 visas. Yes, a lot of that happened under Bush too, but I was angry as hell about it back then as well. Obama had 8 years to do more about that. That's why I say you cannot be shocked by where we are. it sucks we couldn't have elected someone more qualified, however the other guys just weren't talking about this. It mattered to a lot of people. Enough that they could overlook what he would say and how he would act. In the end, putting food on the plate is more important.

There is a shift happening now. Kind of a re-balancing. Things went too far in one direction and its swinging back the other way. It might swing too far but then it will come back to settle. Will it be disruptive? Yes, but it far better to try and address it than to sit back and let what was happening continue.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


IMO - it is all overblown. Russia is not the enemy. Russia isn't doing anything to interfere with elections that other western nations also take part in. I don't see Russia as an enemy. Though - any nation that is dependent on another nation is under leverage. These are acceptable points be be brought up and discussed.

Literal minutes after this post, the US files indictments against a dozen Russian military intelligence officers for actively interfering in US elections

 sebster wrote:


Seriously, if anyone out there is still so deep in the hole they can't see how pathetic the GOP position is on Trump/Russia/Mueller, just watch some of yesterday's GOP lunacy, then watch Rosenstein today.

It's...quite a remarkable thing to br sure.

I am not saying it's not happening. I'm just saying it's happening everywhere.

Curious. How does a US indictment against a Russian intelligence officer work? I assume it's going to go to some agency with no power - Russia will deny it's even happening and really the indictment is just an attempt to make the wasted resources in the investigation were worth while.
Again - I honestly have no idea how that works. How does it work?

Provided that the evidence is compelling its not worthless.

However from a legal standpoint this is a show as Russian citizens has constitutional protection from extradition... unless thes GRUs can be apprehended elsewhere...

 KTG17 wrote:
Which stock market are you looking at? The US stock market exploded when Trump won election and blew past any peak under Obama and remains so.

This is gibberish analysis. Having a higher peak than a previous president just means the market has gone up. It could grow at a tenth of 1% and it would be higher than when that president took over. Your big claim there basically amounts to 'under Trump the market has gone up'. Which is an achievement managed by all except I believe two presidents in US history.

Not that any president should take credit for the stock market, because its really nothing to do with anything presidents actually do, but if you were to judge this you would do it by looking at the rate of growth. Under Obama the market grew 10.8% per year. Under Trump that has fallen to 8.8%.

If market growth was what you motivated your politics, and you believe presidents impact the market, then Obama is the clear pick.

Unless of course, hypothetically, speaking, you operate in a Trumpian haze, in which case I guess concluding 'the market is biggerer therefore Trump is gooderest' would probably work. Maybe leave that kind of thing to political arguments on wargaming boards though, please no-one invest money based on it.