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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 20:24:29
Subject: US Politics
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
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Just Tony wrote:Ouze wrote:There was a woman in Iowa who voted twice, for Trump, because she was afraid illegals were going to cast illegal votes and fix the election.
I also found one of my comments on a story where someone did time and lost their right to vote, voted, and got arrested for voter fraud.
I will accept that since I'm expected to do my own intel gathering for my claims, that you will do the same? Come back with a link.
Sure?
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lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 20:29:00
Subject: US Politics
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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BaronIveagh wrote: whembly wrote:
Can you provide citation that those who didn't break the laws got separated? I'm assuming those are the asylum cases.... right?
https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrants-rights/immigrants-rights-and-detention/fact-checking-family-separation
Is the administration separating asylum-seeking families who enter at ports of entry?
Yes, despite claims to the contrary. On June 17, DHS Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen took to Twitter to defend family separation, saying, “For those seeking asylum at ports of entry, we have continued the policy from previous administrations and will only separate if the child is in danger, there is no custodial relationship between 'family' members, or if the adult has broken a law.”
In case Secretary Nielsen forgot, she’s currently a defendant in our class action lawsuit, where we represent families who entered at ports of entry to seek asylum and had their children taken away.
Ms. L, a Congolese mother who sought asylum at a port of entry, had her seven-year-old daughter taken away from her for four months. Immigration authorities made no meaningful attempt to verify their relationship during that time, only doing so after we filed our lawsuit.
Mirian G, a mother from Honduras, came to the U.S. with her young son on Feb. 20, 2018. She presented herself to immigration authorities and sought asylum, committing no crime. During her interview, Mirian provided immigration officers with several identification documents for her child which listed her as his mother. The next morning, Border Patrol agents took away her 18-month-old son with no explanation. She did not see him again for two months
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/05/29/heres-what-happening-immigrant-children-u-s-border/650755002/
People who present themselves at U.S. borders are allowed to claim asylum. The administration is taking a stronger stance on this, as part of President Trump's attempts to limit immigration to the USA.
Sessions has railed against the asylum system. He said the system is abused by immigrants and "dirty immigration lawyers."
In many cases, the government denies asylum claims and treats those cases as criminal. This leads to more children being separated from their families.
In a call with reporters Tuesday, Trump officials said human smugglers abuse U.S. law on asylum, as well as policies on how to handle families crossing the border together. They called on Congress to change the law to reduce illegal immigration and child smuggling.
"The children smuggling trade would be shut down if we could close these loopholes," Miller said. "We need to change the law so that families arriving illegally can be sent home swiftly."
The American Civil Liberties Union sued the administration in February on behalf of asylum seekers in California who had their children taken from them. A federal judge is likely to rule on that case in the coming weeks.
Huh... did a cursory glance at the aclu claims (need to dig deeper tho). We only have one side here.
O.o
What, Whemb, shocked that the Pres is pulling a page from the man who's book sits on Trump's nightstand (literally according to his wife)? One of the arguments that hte nazis used to justify it was the same one you're making now Whem: they're illegal aliens, we can do to them whatever we want!
I can't even... very symptomatic of ODS dude.
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 20:38:59
Subject: US Politics
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Reverent Tech-Adept
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whembly wrote: deltaKshatriya wrote:Steelmage99 wrote:
You are assuming that certain people are able and willing to change their minds, when it turns out that what they have been fed by the centipede, is at best misleading and at worst false.
I felt it my duty to try at least once. I can see that the person in question has a history in this forum.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have seen this claim being propagated by people who identify as liberals as well, so I figured a post is worthwhile at least.
The main difference is the Trump admin was taking children away from parents who are being prosecuted criminally for offenses that often were once considered civil violations.
I'm not saying Obama/Bush instituted the same zero tolerance policy as Trump administration did.... did I? I'm not conflating the two. Trump's policy is distinctly different. The zero-tolerance policy put the adults in jail for crossing the borders. The side-effect of that is the the kids had to be separated, because it's insane to ALSO put those kids in jail too.
What I should be clearer is that under Bush/Obama... when illegal immigrants break the laws (other than the crossing itself... ie, assault/rape/whatever) during the crossing/apprehension, they do separate the kids as the law states that they can't be held in the same detention center. It does happen. Just like citizens committing certain crimes may have their kids taken away from them.
What Bush/obama admin did was to mitigate that was to expand the detention of immigrant families by adding more facilities that can house the families (ie, not the jail) where they could wait for their administrative cases to be processed.
Even then, immigrant advocates slammed both administrations for locking up families and obviously for poor conditions in the detention facilities.
Fast forward to now, the word had gotten out before Trump became president that anyone who tried to cross the border with a minor would almost certainly be “given immunity from prosecution.” We've had major spikes in minor illegal immigrants,thinking that they're the "ticket" for staying... so, how do you deter that?
Furthermore, by policy, I'm "okay" with separating the families when caught illegally crossing the border. In practice, that means that the government ought to reunite the children with sponsors within the U.S. or relatives/close family friends. If officials can’t find a place, then the children need to be placed into temporary foster care or held in facilities until their cases is adjudicated. I'm not happy about the poor state of these facilies and I do WANT that to be addressed. If that's not feasible, then by all means drop the policy and try something else.
Also, I'm open to criticism that the Trump admin didn't think this through or provided more resources to handle the consequences of their zero-tolerance policy...
Hell, I'm open to the idea that all of this is a bad idea or even the continuation of the Bush/Obama policies are good/bad... but, all this hang wringing over "Trump is kidnapping babies!" or "you hate abortion but are okay with this? HYPOCRITE!" makes my brain hurt.
In the Snopes it states that Obama rarely separated families from one another. It was only in specific circumstances that this happened. Obama and Bush never did this on a Trumpian level.
I'm not arguing policy here, just basic facts. The fact is that this is a Trump policy that resulted in this unprecedented scale of separations, of which the majority were asylum seekers. The whole point of that article is to argue that there's no law that states that families must be separated. This is a specifically Trump policy.
We can't have a debate if we are disagreeing on basic reality.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 20:46:07
Subject: US Politics
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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KTG17 wrote: Wolfblade wrote:
Or, his positions are just ludicrous and trump is actually doing bad things, which makes people hate trump and those who shill for trump.
Along with his constant whataboutism/deflection.
Yeah and all those noble and correct positions everyone else has makes them all better people because rather than going out to do anything about these issues, they are just banging on the keyboard everyday acting more superior when in fact they might as well be part of the problem for not doing more. I love it. Doesn't really matter what anyone says on here yet everyone shows up everyday to argue and act superior. Its a riot.
Too bad we all didn't figure out a way to resolve the immigration issue decades ago so it wasn't there for Trump to screw up. Oh wait can't say that, that means most of us would be taking a share in the blame.
Please, continue.
I think feeder covered that quite well: feeder wrote:"If you had re-painted the house like we asked you to, maybe we wouldn't have had to get Trump to burn it down!"
But, there is a large difference between having problems with the immigration system/illegal immigration and toddler prison. If you can't see that, nothing anyone can ever say will ever change anything you think because you're following the party line and plugging your ears so you don't have to hear or listen to anything that might contradict your party's line.
whembly wrote:
Huh... did a cursory glance at the aclu claims (need to dig deeper tho). We only have one side here.
There's the denial in the face of evidence so that your guy is still right and/or good and you don't have to actually criticize his terrible policies.
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DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+
bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 20:50:22
Subject: US Politics
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Wolfblade wrote:
But, there is a large difference between having problems with the immigration system/illegal immigration and toddler prison. If you can't see that, nothing anyone can ever say will ever change anything you think because you're following the party line and plugging your ears so you don't have to hear or listen to anything that might contradict your party's line.
What party line?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 20:56:28
Subject: US Politics
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Building a blood in water scent
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KTG17 wrote: Wolfblade wrote:
But, there is a large difference between having problems with the immigration system/illegal immigration and toddler prison. If you can't see that, nothing anyone can ever say will ever change anything you think because you're following the party line and plugging your ears so you don't have to hear or listen to anything that might contradict your party's line.
What party line?
Illegal immigration is so bad we have to resort to despicable acts to stem the tide. Incompetently managed, despicable acts.
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We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 20:58:28
Subject: US Politics
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Is that my party's line? This is a first I have heard that.
I am a registered Independent.
Love the ignorance boys, keep it up.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 21:00:09
Subject: US Politics
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Building a blood in water scent
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KTG17 wrote:Is that my party's line? This is a first I have heard that.
I am a registered Independent.
Love the ignorance boys, keep it up.
Hardly ignorance, buds.
Forgive me if your avatar leads me to assume you are a die hard Trump supporter.
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We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 21:01:38
Subject: US Politics
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The Trump avatar is there for you, not me.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 21:04:54
Subject: US Politics
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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KTG17 wrote:Is that my party's line? This is a first I have heard that.
I am a registered Independent.
Love the ignorance boys, keep it up.
And yet, you keep defending trump's policies. You can call yourself an independent all you want, but that doesn't make it true. If you agree with 90% of X party's policies, guess what. You're X party.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/18 21:05:02
DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+
bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 21:08:45
Subject: US Politics
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Wolfblade wrote: KTG17 wrote:Is that my party's line? This is a first I have heard that.
I am a registered Independent.
Love the ignorance boys, keep it up.
And yet, you keep defending trump's policies. You can call yourself an independent all you want, but that doesn't make it true. If you agree with 90% of X party's policies, guess what. You're X party.
Don't forget his signature too.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 21:15:42
Subject: US Politics
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Building a blood in water scent
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So... you are being intentionally provocative? Why?
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We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 21:17:14
Subject: Re:US Politics
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
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Are we still doing this thing where we pretend the policy that Trump implemented to routinely separate every child from their parents is the same as what had happened previously in the Trump administration, the Obama Administration, and so on, where sometimes children were separated because there was evidence of abuse, trafficking, etc?
Because that's one of the most honesty-devoid arguments ever. They said they were going to do this policy, then they did it, then they pretend it was always this way, which is a lazy, garbage lie. What I can't figure is why anyone would ever believe or repeat this lazy, garbage lie - after all, the child separation wasn't an issue for the first year and a half or whatever of the Trump administration, either.
It's literally the argument equivalent of taking a free throw, but you miss, and you pants fall down. it's humiliating for you to do and for us to watch. No one should willingly make that argument.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/18 21:20:08
lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 21:20:16
Subject: US Politics
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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KTG17 wrote:Is that my party's line? This is a first I have heard that.
I am a registered Independent.
Love the ignorance boys, keep it up.
Prove it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 21:21:53
Subject: US Politics
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Fate-Controlling Farseer
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Kilkrazy wrote: KTG17 wrote:Is that my party's line? This is a first I have heard that.
I am a registered Independent.
Love the ignorance boys, keep it up.
Prove it.
Seriuosly?
I'm a registered Independent as well. Gonna tell me to prove it to?
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Full Frontal Nerdity |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 21:28:51
Subject: US Politics
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Never Forget Isstvan!
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djones520 wrote: Kilkrazy wrote: KTG17 wrote:Is that my party's line? This is a first I have heard that.
I am a registered Independent.
Love the ignorance boys, keep it up.
Prove it.
Seriuosly?
I'm a registered Independent as well. Gonna tell me to prove it to?
Are you being a troll/antagonistic?
then my guess is no
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/18 21:29:00
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 21:51:07
Subject: US Politics
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Maryland
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Getting back to why voter IDs laws are restrictive and are primarily used by one side to restrict votes, NH's governor (a Republican) recently signed a law (created and backed by Republicans) that implemented new restrictions for voters. Living in NH is no longer the base requirement - you now need to prove "residency" by having a NH driver's license and car registration.
This, of course, largely targets college students, a group that tends to vote Democrat. It also targets other groups, like the poor and elderly.
Interesting to point out that Trump lost NH by 3,000 votes, and a GOP senator lost by 1,000 votes. This bill would easily cut those numbers.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 21:59:20
Subject: US Politics
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Soul Token
West Yorkshire, England
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Why are we engaging with bad-faith posters, again? Just refute the talking point du jour once and move on.
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"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 22:08:39
Subject: US Politics
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Reverent Tech-Adept
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Elemental wrote:Why are we engaging with bad-faith posters, again? Just refute the talking point du jour once and move on.
That's on me. Just have been hearing this whole "Obama did it too!' thing way too much, also from self-described liberals (not on this thread)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 22:10:19
Subject: US Politics
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Douglas Bader
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infinite_array wrote:Getting back to why voter IDs laws are restrictive and are primarily used by one side to restrict votes, NH's governor (a Republican) recently signed a law (created and backed by Republicans) that implemented new restrictions for voters. Living in NH is no longer the base requirement - you now need to prove "residency" by having a NH driver's license and car registration.
That sounds an awful lot like a blatantly unconstitutional poll tax. What happens if you don't own a car?
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 22:14:38
Subject: US Politics
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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infinite_array wrote:Getting back to why voter IDs laws are restrictive and are primarily used by one side to restrict votes, NH's governor (a Republican) recently signed a law (created and backed by Republicans) that implemented new restrictions for voters. Living in NH is no longer the base requirement - you now need to prove "residency" by having a NH driver's license and car registration.
This, of course, largely targets college students, a group that tends to vote Democrat. It also targets other groups, like the poor and elderly.
Interesting to point out that Trump lost NH by 3,000 votes, and a GOP senator lost by 1,000 votes. This bill would easily cut those numbers.
Citation?
I see this:
http://sos.nh.gov/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=8589972935
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 22:22:11
Subject: US Politics
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Maryland
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 22:34:32
Subject: US Politics
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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan
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Elemental wrote:Why are we engaging with bad-faith posters, again? Just refute the talking point du jour once and move on.
Yes, this would be a substantially better discussion if we'd just ignore the people who have established long track records of not being interested in having good-faith arguments. We've tried feeding the fire for a long time, lets start cutting off the oxygen so we can all move on. As the mods have said, "ignore is a powerful tool".
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/18 22:35:49
lord_blackfang wrote:Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote:The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 22:37:35
Subject: US Politics
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Building a blood in water scent
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How long before the courts strike down this obviously unconstitutional law?
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We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 22:46:45
Subject: US Politics
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Lord of the Fleet
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whembly wrote:
Huh... did a cursory glance at the aclu claims (need to dig deeper tho). We only have one side here.
The Honerable District Judge James Boasberg wrote:
To be clear, in finding that injunctive relief is warranted in this case, this Court is simply ordering that Defendants do what they already admit is required – follow the ICE Directive when adjudicating asylum-seekers’ detention. The Directive provides a framework of minimum protections for those claiming refugee status, and, as Defendants acknowledge, it is binding on the Government. To mandate that ICE provide these baseline procedures to those entering our country – individuals who have often fled violence and persecution to seek safety on our shores – is no great judicial leap. Rather, the issuance of injunctive relief in this case serves only to hold Defendants accountable to their own governing policies and to ensure that Plaintiffs receive the protections they are due under the Parole Directive.
IV. Conclusion
For the aforementioned reasons, the Court will grant Plaintiffs’ Motions for a Preliminary Injunction and will grant provisional class certification. A separate Order consistent with this Opinion shall issue this day.
In other words, when the whole thing went in front of a judge, they had to admit that ICE violated the law, and it's own rules, in doing this. So much for 'only one side'.
Whemb, you'll have to define that one, since Google gave me a list of things that made no sense in this context.
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Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 23:15:32
Subject: US Politics
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Douglas Bader
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I'm not seeing anything about a driver's license or car registration in that link, just a requirement that a person commit to a single residence and can't treat dorm addresses/vacation houses/etc as a residence for voting purposes. And I don't see what is unreasonable about that, if you aren't willing to commit to a city/state/etc being your permanent residence then why should you have a vote in their elections? You should cast your vote in whichever location you are treating as your permanent residence, because that's where you have a bigger stake in the outcome.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 23:30:28
Subject: US Politics
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5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)
Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!
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Peregrine wrote:
I'm not seeing anything about a driver's license or car registration in that link, just a requirement that a person commit to a single residence and can't treat dorm addresses/vacation houses/etc as a residence for voting purposes. And I don't see what is unreasonable about that, if you aren't willing to commit to a city/state/etc being your permanent residence then why should you have a vote in their elections? You should cast your vote in whichever location you are treating as your permanent residence, because that's where you have a bigger stake in the outcome.
Agreed on that part.
However, this document does state you need to present some form of ID:
http://sos.nh.gov/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=8589971615
From the SOS website:
http://sos.nh.gov/
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Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 23:32:26
Subject: Re:US Politics
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Never Forget Isstvan!
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But the kids deserved it according to some posters
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/migrant-children-detail-experiences-border-patrol-stations-detention-centers_us_5b4d13ffe4b0de86f485ade8?utm_source=reddit.com
Over the course of four days in June, Keylin says, U.S. Border Patrol guards would kick her body to keep her awake throughout the night. The 16-year-old, whose last name was redacted from court documents, told a lawyer that she would lie in fear on the cement floor of the Border Patrol station in Texas, surrounded by chain-link fence. She was separated from her mother, who had been held at gunpoint three times in Honduras, after they crossed the U.S. border.
According to a court filing, Keylin says the female guards also made girls “strip naked” in front of them before taking a shower, so they could leer at their bodies (her mother, Daise, corroborated her daughter’s account in a statement she gave to a lawyer). She adds that guards called the group of migrants “filthy” and “made fun of us.”
Keylin barely ate because she says the food was frozen, and she wasn’t given a toothbrush or toothpaste. Though she says the cells were so cold that she shivered and developed pain in her leg, the teen kept quiet. The guards said that anyone with an injury would be detained longer, and she couldn’t take that chance.
“I was very frightened and depressed the entire time,” Keylin told a lawyer on June 29, after she had been transferred to a family detention center and reunited with her mother. “I am still depressed. I also have nightmares and a lot of anxiety because of the separation.” At the time of their June 29 declaration, there was no plan for Keylin and her mother’s release.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 23:33:09
Subject: US Politics
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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According to that bill, having a house anywhere else means you can't vote. Being in state as a student from out of state means you can't vote. Being out of state as a student even if you consider New Hampshire to be your home means you can't vote.
Basically, if you have any tie to any other state no matter how minor you can't vote. The language says exclusively.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 23:35:01
Subject: US Politics
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Maryland
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whembly wrote: Peregrine wrote:
I'm not seeing anything about a driver's license or car registration in that link, just a requirement that a person commit to a single residence and can't treat dorm addresses/vacation houses/etc as a residence for voting purposes. And I don't see what is unreasonable about that, if you aren't willing to commit to a city/state/etc being your permanent residence then why should you have a vote in their elections? You should cast your vote in whichever location you are treating as your permanent residence, because that's where you have a bigger stake in the outcome.
Agreed on that part.
However, this document does state you need to present some form of ID:
http://sos.nh.gov/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=8589971615
From the SOS website:
http://sos.nh.gov/
The 1979 Symm v. United States case from the Supreme Court gave students the right to vote in the towns and cities where they're going to school.
Then again, I don't give much faith to the current SCOTUS if anything reaches them in regards to this. The conservatives will happily throw away Symm as "bad precedent."
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