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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





You can't deny that they are part of the group mentioned though. They also happen to have quite a bit of influence in conservative politics.

There is no equivalent liberal group.
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

 skyth wrote:
You can't deny that they are part of the group mentioned though. They also happen to have quite a bit of influence in conservative politics.

There is no equivalent liberal group.


Eh, the animal rights folks could get pretty wacky... but I mean that's like comparing stupid apples and evil oranges

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I don't think animal rights groups have the influence over the Democrats that the neo nazi's, etc have over the Republicans.
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

Relapse wrote:

I would hardly put neo nazis and white supremists in my definition of conservative any more than I would put terrorists who claim they kill in the name of Allah in as representative of Muslims.


I can understand the misunderstanding though, because Trump does both.

Interestingly enough, the Steele Dossier seems to be panning out, no matter who paid for it to be written.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44918133


Interestingly enough, I want all of you to consider some of my past posts, and then wrap your heads around me being conservative. Just not Republican.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/22 20:09:22


 
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission





The Democrats sacrificed Al Franklin for their beliefs and Bill Clinton is now getting tons of pushback and is being alienated. The republican party has recently shown that they do not have any limits to what they will support. Trump won the nomination. Trump and his administration has consistently attacked veterans, family values, honesty, fiscal responsibility, and other conservative values. But he is supported because he is making life miserable for people on the other team. If Republicans wished to not to be considered xenophobic, they maybe they should stop supporting him and his policies aimed at isolating the US from the world stage.

But hey, they got all levels of the government, a tax cut, the dismantlement of net neutrality and EPA regulations, a growing trade war, and at least two supreme court nominations. So it is working for them...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/22 23:06:59


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Relapse wrote:

I would hardly put neo nazis and white supremists in my definition of conservative any more than I would put terrorists who claim they kill in the name of Allah in as representative of Muslims.


I can understand the misunderstanding though, because Trump does both.

Interestingly enough, the Steele Dossier seems to be panning out, no matter who paid for it to be written.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44918133


Interestingly enough, I want all of you to consider some of my past posts, and then wrap your heads around me being conservative. Just not Republican.

It's awfully weak though... especially since the dossier was *the* justification for the FISA warrant. McCabe and Comey said under oath that the dossier was unverified by the FBI... and yet, the warrant claimed it was verified.

Why would McCabe/Comey lie under oath?

This further muddies that waters where both sides can pick/choose information to substantiate their preferred narrative.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/22 21:02:16


 
   
Made in dk
Stormin' Stompa





 whembly wrote:
... especially since the dossier was *the* justification for the FISA warrant.


And whembly does it again......

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/22 21:23:03


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Steelmage99 wrote:
 whembly wrote:
... especially since the dossier was *the* justification for the FISA warrant.


And whembly does it again......

What? Read the warrant?

https://scribd.com/document/384380664/2016-FISA-Application-on-Carter-Page?campaign=SkimbitLtd&ad_group=725X700959Xe1761b808e0a078469c404c0e171b1f3&keyword=660149026&source=hp_affiliate&medium=affiliate

Here... take a gander and use the neurons between your ears.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Relapse wrote:
I would hardly put neo nazis and white supremists in my definition of conservative any more than I would put terrorists who claim they kill in the name of Allah in as representative of Muslims.


Well, they disagree, and they're generally also fans of Russia, and they were using the phrase alt-right as a cover for white nationalist for about two years before Trump picked it up.

You may not like them, but Trump wouldn't be in office without them and the Republicans have spent the last four or so years actively courting them after grooming them for the last decade.
   
Made in dk
Stormin' Stompa





 whembly wrote:
Steelmage99 wrote:
 whembly wrote:
... especially since the dossier was *the* justification for the FISA warrant.


And whembly does it again......

What? Read the warrant?

https://scribd.com/document/384380664/2016-FISA-Application-on-Carter-Page?campaign=SkimbitLtd&ad_group=725X700959Xe1761b808e0a078469c404c0e171b1f3&keyword=660149026&source=hp_affiliate&medium=affiliate

Here... take a gander and use the neurons between your ears.


You are wilfully ignorant or deliberately dishonest.
Either way, not worthy of good faith engagement.

My post, while quoting you, wasn't meant for you.
It was for everybody else.

   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

I did check it just to humor him. Never mind that its a 412 page document and absolutely no one is going to read that whole thing in the off topic section of a forum for toy soldiers. Honestly it's kind of absurd. So much of that warrant is blacked out it's impossible to know what it's basis really is, but I highly doubt a single dossier spawned a 412 page warrant, and the warrant lists lots of premises that have no reference to the Steele Dossier. I fact I can't find any reference to it specifically, but it is a 412 page document. Have a page number? Cause I'm wondering if someone ever took a gander at this massive wall of blacked out text.

   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






But remember, both sides.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




An interesting shorthand view on far right and far left viewpoints.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theperspective.com/amp/debates/3978/similar-far-left-far-right.html
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!





Chicago



Funnily enough some of those points I encountered today when I got in an argument with a friend who is far left

Ustrello paints- 30k, 40k multiple armies
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/614742.page 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader








Superficial and over-generalized nonsense, turning small similarities into broad conclusions. It's like arguing that soldiers and serial killers are the same because both kill people.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

Steelmage99 wrote:
You are wilfully ignorant or deliberately dishonest.


Definitely the latter! The dossier played a part in it, but it was only a small piece in why Carter Page was being surveilled.

Or, as noted liberal Marco Rubio said:

“I don’t think they did anything wrong. I think they went to the court, they got the judges to approve it, they laid out all the information, and there was a lot of reasons unrelated to the dossier for why they wanted to look at Carter Page".


Steelmage99 wrote:
Either way, not worthy of good faith engagement.


I'm not singling out anyone specifically, but if any poster has a long, well established track record of lazy, easily debunked lies and doubling down on them when pointed out, it's time to stop humoring them and letting them constantly suck all the oxygen out of every conversation. It's been years now, we know how attempting to refute a wall of thick, fudgy bs that is constantly being spackled back up works - it doesn't.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/23 00:10:21


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Relapse wrote:
It gets tiring to see democrats compared to paragons of virtue while republicans are vilified as enemies to all mankind.
Would you mind providing some sources? Not being sarcastic; I know they are out there but encounter them so rarely that I would appreciate some content to read to broaden my perspective. Not interested in fringe groups with little viewership however. Though if you have quotes from this thread specifically I'd like to see them too.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

As an outsider is always funny to see americans call Democrats or Republicans left or right when from Europe we see both as what they really are. Economical right, but one has a facade of social progresism that never accomplish anything because in their roots they are just as pro-big business as the other. (The same happens in Spain btw)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/23 00:43:20


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Would you mind providing some sources? Not being sarcastic; I know they are out there but encounter them so rarely that I would appreciate some content to read to broaden my perspective. Not interested in fringe groups with little viewership however. Though if you have quotes from this thread specifically I'd like to see them too.


Certainly the Republicans get a fair bit a shade thrown their way, but I haven't seen anyone exemplify the Democrats for anything. If the GOP weren't so hog wild at the moment maybe they'd be getting more attention but yeah...

As an outsider is always funny to see americans call Democrats or Republicans left or right when from Europe we see both as what they really are. Economical right, but one has a facade of social progresism that never accomplish anything because in their roots they are just as pro-big business as the other.


I find your assessment accurate. Though I'd add the caveat that there is a noticeable in which big businesses the parties tend to show love, but that doesn't amount to much for us plebs.

   
Made in us
Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Relapse wrote:
It gets tiring to see democrats compared to paragons of virtue while republicans are vilified as enemies to all mankind.
Would you mind providing some sources? Not being sarcastic; I know they are out there but encounter them so rarely that I would appreciate some content to read to broaden my perspective. Not interested in fringe groups with little viewership however. Though if you have quotes from this thread specifically I'd like to see them too.


Well, talking terms of sexual misconduct, you can look at Congress alone in the past decade for Al Franken, Eric Massa, John Conyers, David Wu, Anthony Weiner. Other politicians include Bob Filner (San Diego Mayor), Raul Bocanegra (California State Assembly), Dan Schoen (Minnesota Senate), Ira Silverstein (Illinois Senate), Kwame Kilpatrick (Detroit Politician, can write a book on his criminal doings). The list goes on and on.

It's a simple fact of life that there is no barricade of politics on this topic, and it's pretty silly when people try to act like there is.

Full Frontal Nerdity 
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!





Chicago

 djones520 wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Relapse wrote:
It gets tiring to see democrats compared to paragons of virtue while republicans are vilified as enemies to all mankind.
Would you mind providing some sources? Not being sarcastic; I know they are out there but encounter them so rarely that I would appreciate some content to read to broaden my perspective. Not interested in fringe groups with little viewership however. Though if you have quotes from this thread specifically I'd like to see them too.


Well, talking terms of sexual misconduct, you can look at Congress alone in the past decade for Al Franken, Eric Massa, John Conyers, David Wu, Anthony Weiner. Other politicians include Bob Filner (San Diego Mayor), Raul Bocanegra (California State Assembly), Dan Schoen (Minnesota Senate), Ira Silverstein (Illinois Senate), Kwame Kilpatrick (Detroit Politician, can write a book on his criminal doings). The list goes on and on.

It's a simple fact of life that there is no barricade of politics on this topic, and it's pretty silly when people try to act like there is.


Its the problem that Republicans style themselves as the party of family values and being anti-gay. So when it turns up they are cheating, diddling children or in a secret gay affair it stands out more

Ustrello paints- 30k, 40k multiple armies
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/614742.page 
   
Made in dk
Stormin' Stompa





 djones520 wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Relapse wrote:
It gets tiring to see democrats compared to paragons of virtue while republicans are vilified as enemies to all mankind.
Would you mind providing some sources? Not being sarcastic; I know they are out there but encounter them so rarely that I would appreciate some content to read to broaden my perspective. Not interested in fringe groups with little viewership however. Though if you have quotes from this thread specifically I'd like to see them too.


Well, talking terms of sexual misconduct, you can look at Congress alone in the past decade for Al Franken, Eric Massa, John Conyers, David Wu, Anthony Weiner. Other politicians include Bob Filner (San Diego Mayor), Raul Bocanegra (California State Assembly), Dan Schoen (Minnesota Senate), Ira Silverstein (Illinois Senate), Kwame Kilpatrick (Detroit Politician, can write a book on his criminal doings). The list goes on and on.

It's a simple fact of life that there is no barricade of politics on this topic, and it's pretty silly when people try to act like there is.


You failed to address the actual question. I am not going to speculate on whether that was deliberate dishonesty or lack of comprehension/intelligence.

Relapse asserted that Democrats was being presented as paragons of virtue - and that he was tired of that happening.
NinthMusketeer asked for something to support that statement.

Your post does nothing to support Relapse's assertion that Democrats are being presented as paragons of virtue.



.

-------------------------------------------------------
"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."

18.000 3.500 8.200 3.300 2.400 3.100 5.500 2.500 3.200 3.000


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Ustrello wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Relapse wrote:
It gets tiring to see democrats compared to paragons of virtue while republicans are vilified as enemies to all mankind.
Would you mind providing some sources? Not being sarcastic; I know they are out there but encounter them so rarely that I would appreciate some content to read to broaden my perspective. Not interested in fringe groups with little viewership however. Though if you have quotes from this thread specifically I'd like to see them too.


Well, talking terms of sexual misconduct, you can look at Congress alone in the past decade for Al Franken, Eric Massa, John Conyers, David Wu, Anthony Weiner. Other politicians include Bob Filner (San Diego Mayor), Raul Bocanegra (California State Assembly), Dan Schoen (Minnesota Senate), Ira Silverstein (Illinois Senate), Kwame Kilpatrick (Detroit Politician, can write a book on his criminal doings). The list goes on and on.

It's a simple fact of life that there is no barricade of politics on this topic, and it's pretty silly when people try to act like there is.


Its the problem that Republicans style themselves as the party of family values and being anti-gay. So when it turns up they are cheating, diddling children or in a secret gay affair it stands out more


Yes, but the beliefs of the general members of the party about the people quoted above are not that they are paragons of virtue.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 LordofHats wrote:
I did check it just to humor him. Never mind that its a 412 page document and absolutely no one is going to read that whole thing in the off topic section of a forum for toy soldiers. Honestly it's kind of absurd. So much of that warrant is blacked out it's impossible to know what it's basis really is, but I highly doubt a single dossier spawned a 412 page warrant, and the warrant lists lots of premises that have no reference to the Steele Dossier. I fact I can't find any reference to it specifically, but it is a 412 page document. Have a page number? Cause I'm wondering if someone ever took a gander at this massive wall of blacked out text.

Page 15 and 16 footnotes. (please note that this document contains, I think, the 4 FISA requests to monitor page).

The “identified U.S. person” is Glenn Simpson, the head of Fusion GPS. Source #1 is Christopher Steele.

The DOJ’s statement that “the FBI speculates that the identified U.S person [Simpson] was likely looking for information that could be used to discredit Candidate #1’s [Trump’s] campaign” could only have been an intentional effort to deceive the FISA judge. The fact that the FBI failed to document the Dossier's provenance speaks volume.

Again, I'm going to repeat myself, the FBI knew the Clinton Campaign/DNC was paying for the dossier yet they never informed the court of the political motive behind Christopher Steele and failed to disclose that to the FISA judge. That taints the whole thing quite a bit...

The Dossier will likely turn out to be a mixed bag of the true, the false, and the shades of gray in between. But the open source info so far? It's really weak...really, really weak. I can only pray that the redacted information has some strong, concrete gak that justifies this (there's an ongoing IG investigation covering this)... otherwise, this falls into Trump's "Witch Hunt" narrative that'd be difficult to shake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Steelmage99 wrote:


You are wilfully ignorant or deliberately dishonest.
Either way, not worthy of good faith engagement.

My post, while quoting you, wasn't meant for you.
It was for everybody else.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/23 03:23:34


Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in dk
Stormin' Stompa





As usual whembly fails to understand a number of things (deliberately or otherwise).

1. It doesn't matter who paid for the Steele Dossier.
It only matters whether what it says is demonstrably and verifiably true (in whole or in part).
This is a very alien concept to Trump supporters and religious people, ie a not insignificant number of people in the US.
The rest of the civilised world knows this as the scientific method (the single most effective way of looking at facts and observations).

2. It doesn't matter if the Steele Dossier turns out to be utter bunk.
The FISA warrants wasn't issued as a proclamation of the veracity of the intelligence received in the Steele Dossier.
FISA warrants are an investigative tool used to determine whether the received intelligence is true or false.

3. It doesn't matter if the FISA warrants leads nowhere.
The FBI is required to investigate any credible intelligence it receives. Anything less would be dereliction of duty.


.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/23 03:32:22


-------------------------------------------------------
"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."

18.000 3.500 8.200 3.300 2.400 3.100 5.500 2.500 3.200 3.000


 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

 whembly wrote:
The fact that the FBI failed to document the Dossier's provenance speaks volume.


So you're just employing circular logic?

Well nothing new to see here.

   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Steelmage99 wrote:
As usual whembly fails to understand a number of things (deliberately or otherwise).



1. It doesn't matter who paid for the Steele Dossier.
It only matters whether what it says is demonstrably and verifiably true.
This is a very alien concept to Trump supporters and religious people, ie a not insignificant number of people in the US.
The rest of the civilised world knows this as the scientific method (the single most effective way of looking at facts and observations)..

2. It doesn't matter if the Steele Dossier turns out to be utter bunk.
The FISA warrants wasn't issued as a proclamation of the veracity of the intelligence received in the Steele Dossier.
FISA warrants are an investigative tool used to determine whether the received intelligence is true or false.

3. It doesn't matter if the FISA warrants leads nowhere.
The FBI is required to investigate any credible intelligence it receives. Anything less would be dereliction of duty.


.

IN that FISA warrant, there's a blurb that "the FBI has reviewed this verified application for accuracy in accordance with its April 5 2001 procedures"

Those are "Woods Procedures", that requires verification of all sources AND SUB-sources.

Here's more information on Woods Procedure.

All of this is required BEFORE getting the FISA warrant... not to go on a 'fishing expedition'. The the bar is HIGH to get a FISA warrant on US citizen (as it should be).

As I mentioned in my previous post, the redacted gak better have more concrete evidence beyond steele's dossier (seems likely) and not the usual ass-covering redaction.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LordofHats wrote:
 whembly wrote:
The fact that the FBI failed to document the Dossier's provenance speaks volume.


So you're just employing circular logic?

Well nothing new to see here.

How is that in any way circular?

It's a fact that the FBI knew who funded it and failed to disclose it to the 4 judges. (unless its part of the redaction... which would be very weird to redact).

And with all that, I still think Carter Page is shady as feth.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/23 03:45:42


Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in nl
Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






Well, it sure is good to see Trump is approaching the delicate and potentially volatile matter of diplomacy in a reserved, graceful manner... oh wait:
@realDonaldTrump wrote:To Iranian President Rouhani: NEVER, EVER THREATEN THE UNITED STATES AGAIN OR YOU WILL SUFFER CONSEQUENCES THE LIKES OF WHICH FEW THROUGHOUT HISTORY HAVE EVER SUFFERED BEFORE. WE ARE NO LONGER A COUNTRY THAT WILL STAND FOR YOUR DEMENTED WORDS OF VIOLENCE & DEATH. BE CAUTIOUS!

All the grace of an elephant barging through an expensive china shop that is. If the elephant were on rollerskates...
From Trump's Twitter: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1021234525626609666


This is so sad. A president writing in full caps like an ordinary internet troll...
Coincidentally, this was the first result that popped up when googling for "elephant in china shop". Very fitting.
Spoiler:

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/23 03:52:39


Error 404: Interesting signature not found

 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Well, it sure is good to see Trump is approaching the delicate and potentially volatile matter of diplomacy in a reserved, graceful manner... oh wait:
@realDonaldTrump wrote:To Iranian President Rouhani: NEVER, EVER THREATEN THE UNITED STATES AGAIN OR YOU WILL SUFFER CONSEQUENCES THE LIKES OF WHICH FEW THROUGHOUT HISTORY HAVE EVER SUFFERED BEFORE. WE ARE NO LONGER A COUNTRY THAT WILL STAND FOR YOUR DEMENTED WORDS OF VIOLENCE & DEATH. BE CAUTIOUS!

All the grace of an elephant barging through an expensive china shop that is. If the elephant were on rollerskates...
From Trump's Twitter: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1021234525626609666


This is so sad. A president writing in full caps like an ordinary internet troll...



...I got nuthing. Or... rather, tomorrow's news in the states is going to be lit af.

Did Rouhani threaten Melania or Baron?


Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!





Chicago

 whembly wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Well, it sure is good to see Trump is approaching the delicate and potentially volatile matter of diplomacy in a reserved, graceful manner... oh wait:
@realDonaldTrump wrote:To Iranian President Rouhani: NEVER, EVER THREATEN THE UNITED STATES AGAIN OR YOU WILL SUFFER CONSEQUENCES THE LIKES OF WHICH FEW THROUGHOUT HISTORY HAVE EVER SUFFERED BEFORE. WE ARE NO LONGER A COUNTRY THAT WILL STAND FOR YOUR DEMENTED WORDS OF VIOLENCE & DEATH. BE CAUTIOUS!

All the grace of an elephant barging through an expensive china shop that is. If the elephant were on rollerskates...
From Trump's Twitter: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1021234525626609666


This is so sad. A president writing in full caps like an ordinary internet troll...



...I got nuthing. Or... rather, tomorrow's news in the states is going to be lit af.

Did Rouhani threaten Melania or Baron?



Trumps lack of reading ability killed him on this. Rouhani said that if the United States invaded it would be the mother of all wars

Ustrello paints- 30k, 40k multiple armies
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/614742.page 
   
 
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