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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




Building a blood in water scent

 Xenomancers wrote:
 feeder wrote:
Invasion is problematic because it implies there are a horde of illegals, when it is at worst a trickle.

Illegals are a net gain for your society, unless of course you are vying for that fruit picker or unskilled construction labourer job. Then they suck for you. Otherwise, you directly benefit from illegal labour.

And again, not everyone whose lives have been torn apart by this gakstorm implementation of a gakshow policy are illegal border jumpers. Read that sentence. Internalize it. Even if you subscribe to morally dubious theory that border jumpers "deserve it", not all victims of this policy fit that criteria.

The US has the lowest labor participation rate in it's entire history. It's only going to get worse with the coming rise of automation. We don't need more people for any reason. The only thing an unskilled labor force coming into this country ensures is - more people on wellfare / more unpaid medical bills / ect. Plus - that is eventually going to be the norm - because most people will be unemployable in 20 years.


I don't think we are at construction robots any time soon, and only the agricultural-industrial complex can afford to fully automate their business.

Regardless, I don't think an indistinctly troubling future justifies morally reprehensible acts today.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/25 20:22:37


We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” 
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

 Xenomancers wrote:
Plus - that is eventually going to be the norm - because most people will be unemployable in 20 years.


I highly doubt there will be an America in 20 years. Though I hear Canada is building a preemptive wall to keep them out.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 feeder wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Xenophobomancer


Heh, clever.
Responding to Xeno, who has exclusively argued in bad faith within this thread, is unlikely to add value to the discussion. But name-calling actively diminishes it. Either call it out as what it is or ignore him entirely.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Xenomancers wrote:
You'd also have to be incredibly Niave to think that this is the fault of Republicans. This is the result of going soft as gak on immigration for decades while our country was literally invaded by illegal aliens at will - encouraging the next eager batch. Due to the fact their are safe havens and people willing to employ these illegals. If it were up to me. employing an illegal alien would have much more serious consequences eventually - with no work - they would have stopped coming anyways.



Don't have a huge amount of time, so I'm addressing this on the reading that 'this' is taking children from parents and then deporting the parents without the kids.

Yes, it is the republicans fault.

The policies put in place lacked any mechanism for restoration of the children to their parents. You can't deny that without being wrong. Otherwise even a system as gakky as ours can be wouldn't be failing at this rate. It was thoughtless cruelty imposed on people because the republicans finally could.
   
Made in us
Lord of the Fleet





Seneca Nation of Indians

 feeder wrote:

Oops. Enjoy your OT vacay


If that phrase were prohibited, then Dakka would come to a screeching halt. It'd be like banning 'For the Emperor'.

Xeno's Turtle here tends to spout some stuff that dances around the edges of racism, nationalism, and totalitarianism, (and certain groups that combined those things) but call him out on it seems to offend the mods for some reason. Even when, by my standards, I'm being quite restrained.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Responding to Xeno, who has exclusively argued in bad faith within this thread, is unlikely to add value to the discussion. But name-calling actively diminishes it. Either call it out as what it is or ignore him entirely.


Sorry, I've had him blocked for a long time, but people keep responding to him, for writing these... things... things that piss me off to no end.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/07/25 20:44:47



Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 feeder wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 feeder wrote:
Invasion is problematic because it implies there are a horde of illegals, when it is at worst a trickle.

Illegals are a net gain for your society, unless of course you are vying for that fruit picker or unskilled construction labourer job. Then they suck for you. Otherwise, you directly benefit from illegal labour.

And again, not everyone whose lives have been torn apart by this gakstorm implementation of a gakshow policy are illegal border jumpers. Read that sentence. Internalize it. Even if you subscribe to morally dubious theory that border jumpers "deserve it", not all victims of this policy fit that criteria.

The US has the lowest labor participation rate in it's entire history. It's only going to get worse with the coming rise of automation. We don't need more people for any reason. The only thing an unskilled labor force coming into this country ensures is - more people on wellfare / more unpaid medical bills / ect. Plus - that is eventually going to be the norm - because most people will be unemployable in 20 years.


I don't think we are at construction robots any time soon, and only the agricultural-industrial complex can afford to fully automate their business.

Regardless, I don't think an indistinctly troubling future justifies morally reprehensible acts today.

food service/ transportation/ retail. That is 40% of all jobs. Over the course of the next 20 years - these jobs are going to be almost entirely automated. I am not making this up. This isn't strictly an American problem ether. It's going to be the biggest threat in very poor countries too. So immigration is soon going to become a global crisis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 feeder wrote:

Oops. Enjoy your OT vacay


If that phrase were prohibited, then Dakka would come to a screeching halt. It'd be like banning 'For the Emperor'.

Xeno's Turtle here tends to spout some stuff that dances around the edges of racism, nationalism, and totalitarianism, (and certain groups that combined those things) but call him out on it seems to offend the mods for some reason. Even when, by my standards, I'm being quite restrained.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Responding to Xeno, who has exclusively argued in bad faith within this thread, is unlikely to add value to the discussion. But name-calling actively diminishes it. Either call it out as what it is or ignore him entirely.


Sorry, I've had him blocked for a long time, but people keep responding to him, for writing these... things... things that piss me off to no end.

Blocking people you don't agree with. How very liberal of you. Plus yes - name calling is exceptionally lame. Don't worry though - I've got pretty thick skin.

Can you give me an example of arguing in bad faith musketeer?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
You'd also have to be incredibly Niave to think that this is the fault of Republicans. This is the result of going soft as gak on immigration for decades while our country was literally invaded by illegal aliens at will - encouraging the next eager batch. Due to the fact their are safe havens and people willing to employ these illegals. If it were up to me. employing an illegal alien would have much more serious consequences eventually - with no work - they would have stopped coming anyways.



Don't have a huge amount of time, so I'm addressing this on the reading that 'this' is taking children from parents and then deporting the parents without the kids.

Yes, it is the republicans fault.

The policies put in place lacked any mechanism for restoration of the children to their parents. You can't deny that without being wrong. Otherwise even a system as gakky as ours can be wouldn't be failing at this rate. It was thoughtless cruelty imposed on people because the republicans finally could.

They are enforcing a policy that has been around for decades.

Do you have a solution that doesn't involve handing children over to people with no proof of their ownership of the child? Because I assure you - this is not what anyone wants.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/25 20:55:11


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




Building a blood in water scent

 Xenomancers wrote:


food service/ transportation/ retail. That is 40% of all jobs. Over the course of the next 20 years - these jobs are going to be almost entirely automated. I am not making this up. This isn't strictly an American problem ether. It's going to be the biggest threat in very poor countries too. So immigration is soon going to become a global crisis.


Regardless, I don't think an indistinctly troubling future justifies morally reprehensible acts today.


Plus yes - name calling is exceptionally lame. Don't worry though - I've got pretty thick skin.


Ah, good on you then. I earned the banehams for something far tamer. I guess I directed it at a particularly fragile snowflake.

We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

 Xenomancers wrote:
YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Jesus, you're not supposed to try to get nominated for "most callous post of the year" on purpose.

He actually makes good points. Sometimes logic is cold.


What good points? Baseless speculation, whataboutism, concern trolling and dismissing a massive feth up all wrapped up in a cute little edgy package?

It's cynicism without the benefit of truth being used to dismiss a real problem. But that's about what I expected.

I wouldn't call it a massive gak up and I wouldn't call the speculation baseless - because you can't prove otherwise.
What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.



He said she said is not good enough. His speculation is as good as yours as long as it's grounded in reason - which it is.
Except there is no data to support any of the above assertions, it was literally "I heard..." and "So maybe..."



A good portion of those families probably intentionally abandoned their children
Yeah...this is coming straight from your keester here, again an assertion without any evidence. You made up this assertion without anything to substantiate it.


- in hopes that the US government would take them in. You'd have to be incredibly naive to not think that isn't going on. Parents do that all the time here in the states...mothers will just drop their kid off at a hospital or an orphanage if they can't take care of them and run away.
While such things happen, they are, statistically speaking, quite rare. Certainly not in any proportion or the same level of magnitude to what we are seeing here with these separated children.



Or the crazy ones...just put their kids to sleep while they go out partying and sometimes those kids die.
And what on earth does that have to do with anything here? gakky people exist everywhere, but theres no evidence of such at play here.


Also - the same thing would happen to an american family here if they had a kid with them and couldn't prove that it belonged with them.
Broadly speaking, the cops would typically have to have reason and evidence to believe the child was not theirs, not just assuming it as a matter of fact, and there'd be a system in place to arrange reuinion, which was not the case here.

Then - even if it was theirs - the state could still hold the kid if the parents were considered unfit (These are indisputable facts). For some reason - you want to give illegal immigrants a different standard? It makes no sense.
Except there is nothing proving the immigrant parents were unfit...and that usually requires more than "oh hey we arrested you on a nonviolent misdemeanor charge".


You'd also have to be incredibly Niave to think that this is the fault of Republicans.
This particular policy? It's absolutely 100% the fault of Republicans, theyre the only ones calling for, supporting, formulating and implementing it.


This is the result of going soft as gak on immigration for decades while our country was literally invaded by illegal aliens at will - encouraging the next eager batch. Due to the fact their are safe havens and people willing to employ these illegals. If it were up to me. employing an illegal alien would have much more serious consequences eventually - with no work - they would have stopped coming anyways.
And now we've gone full AM radio...



What world do you live in where everyone is good? No one lies? No one cheats? It is human nature. It's not cynical to assume the worst out of a criminal. Get it right - these people are criminals.
By this standard, find me one person who isn't. I dont know anyone who made it out of college that couldnt have been hauled in for felony copyright violations between all the torrenting that was going on. My pal had a flash hider instead of a muzzle brake on his AR in CA without his kydex grip wrap thingy on once. I drank before I turned 21. My sister had a DUI at 19. I failed to declare a bottle of Port at customs when I came back from Cape Town.

Better assume the worst of all of us

By and large, we're not talking hardcore convicts here...you're going real hard out of your way to frame that picture though.


When it comes to people who are willing to cheat a system...break laws and break into a country illegally. I will always assume the worst. The gak they had to do to get here. Pay off human traffickers. Travel through the burning desert with children - these people are willing to do anything.
And yet, there's little data to support this level of paranoia.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

What the hell does this have to do with US politics? It happened we are dealing with it.


Another Politics story :

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/whistleblower-emails-show-police-lied-about-stormy-daniels-strip-club-arrest/


Emails said to be from a Columbus, Ohio detective’s account show that there may be more to the story of Stormy Daniels‘ arrest at a local strip club than police said. The emails were sent by a whistleblower to local newspaper The Fayette Advocate.

Daniels was arrested under a rarely-enforced state law that prohibits employees of strip clubs who dance nude or semi-nude from touching patrons. Daniels allegedly groped several people who turned out to be undercover cops when she made a guest appearance at Sirens. Because the statute clearly only applies to employees who regularly perform at a given establishment–while Daniels was a guest performer–prosecutors quickly moved to dismiss the case.

Police said after the fact that they were at Sirens as part of an investigation of possible prostitution and human trafficking, and Daniels just happened to be there that night. Emails purportedly from the account of Vice Detective Shana Keckley, however, indicate otherwise.

The emails include several messages that Keckley appears to have sent to herself prior to Daniels’ performance. Among them are images and articles about the adult film star, including an article promoting her appearance at Sirens, and a map image featuring the location of the club.

Other emails, dated after Daniels’ arrest, refer specifically to how Keckley and other named officers arrested her.

“It is clear that Keckley and her fellow officers were there because of Stormy and only because of Stormy,” the unnamed whistleblower told The Advocate. “The emails definitely show that the police lied about it being a prostitution and human trafficking mission.”

Daniels’ lawyer, Michael Avenatti, said that the information was “extremely disturbing,” in a tweet after the article was published.

“I intend on getting to truth and the bottom of who ordered @StormyDaniels arrested and why,” he added. “It appears that I was correct when I stated it was politically motivated.”


I can find another source if people want me to but seems interesting.


What world do you live in where everyone is good? No one lies? No one cheats? It is human nature. It's not cynical to assume the worst out of a criminal. Get it right - these people are criminals.


My family were literal criminals that came to Australia because they didn't pay taxes.

My other side of my family stowed away illegally on boats to cross the english channel. You have to be tone deaf not to realize your actually give us ammunition to fire back. Most Immigrants that have come to the US have been illegal boyo. That is what america has been built on for centuries. We are the melting pot nation, not the fourth reich of our dear leader.

WE are a nation of immigrants.

I'll borrow an argument I had with a similar poster :

"Yes we do. We need it, because the more people, the more thoughts, more ideas, from people who have the capacity to do more, only taking skill laborers is a stupid idea. There are stastically fewer of them. Considering most people are not skilled when they first enter from a country that is at war. These are refugees or asylum seekers, not your average immigrant. Mexico is at war. South America is experiencing massive turbluence, civilian refugees. Just turning them away what will that do? Why send them back? We have enough room. Alot of room infact.

Morally speaking it is inconsiderate to turn them away, we are breaking world laws and rulings on how to deal with them under this administration. Things will happen, the population will spike, we need replacements of the current population who do not do low skill labor, and more influx of bodies the more money we make. Because right now we have a lot of jobs, but not many workers for those jobs.

The economy will expand to deal with it, like it did under Regan and many other presidents."

We should never turn people away because we made assumptions on their character. People are people they make mistakes, and it is far harder to enter the united states legally now than it ever has been. Most people who enter the united states illegally are Canadians who overstay their visas and forget to renew. (https://nationalpost.com/news/world/northern-aliens-around-100000-canadians-live-under-the-radar-in-u-s-as-illegal-immigrants)

These people are unskilled for the moment but they have something that america sorely needs passion and the will to improve and make something of themselves. Each and every single person has that capacity to do more and to do good in turn. If nothing we do matters... , then all that matters is what we do. Those are words to live by and that is what these people will do, giving them a chance is the best thing to do here, not damning them, stealing babies from mothers, and separating them into cages like cattle.

Republicians created this stupid mess and they sure as hell should fix it, but they won't. Cause this past year or so has taught us anything, it has proved to us they can't. Not with their current incompatiable ideology, and a president who is racist, inconsiderate, unempathitic, lacks leadership, and a terrible human being. Once we have good moral people leading our country again hopefully that will change, and our nation will heal this blistering wound of xenophobia.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/25 21:16:09


From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 feeder wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:


food service/ transportation/ retail. That is 40% of all jobs. Over the course of the next 20 years - these jobs are going to be almost entirely automated. I am not making this up. This isn't strictly an American problem ether. It's going to be the biggest threat in very poor countries too. So immigration is soon going to become a global crisis.


Regardless, I don't think an indistinctly troubling future justifies morally reprehensible acts today.


Plus yes - name calling is exceptionally lame. Don't worry though - I've got pretty thick skin.


Ah, good on you then. I earned the banehams for something far tamer. I guess I directed it at a particularly fragile snowflake.

Morally reprehensible. Humm...yeah I think we'd like to avoid that where ever possible. Do you have a solution for these children? Sometimes the moral decsion has to be the lesser of 2 or more evils.

You can ether -
-Let them all become citizens child plus family (This is unrealistic and fighting for it would be absolutely insane)
-Just take them at their word that they are their children (risky - could be a perfect way for people to kidnap children and put them into slavery the rest of their lives)(I prefer this over option 1)
-Keep doing what we are doing (Indifferent to this - the problem is being blown way out of proportion IMO - but we can do better)
-Create policy that allows identity to be verified through genetic testing - then release the families together (most preferable)

What do you propose?

Also - you havn't been mean to me. You are being fair.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Spoiler:
 Vaktathi wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Jesus, you're not supposed to try to get nominated for "most callous post of the year" on purpose.

He actually makes good points. Sometimes logic is cold.


What good points? Baseless speculation, whataboutism, concern trolling and dismissing a massive feth up all wrapped up in a cute little edgy package?

It's cynicism without the benefit of truth being used to dismiss a real problem. But that's about what I expected.

I wouldn't call it a massive gak up and I wouldn't call the speculation baseless - because you can't prove otherwise.
What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.



He said she said is not good enough. His speculation is as good as yours as long as it's grounded in reason - which it is.
Except there is no data to support any of the above assertions, it was literally "I heard..." and "So maybe..."



A good portion of those families probably intentionally abandoned their children
Yeah...this is coming straight from your keester here, again an assertion without any evidence. You made up this assertion without anything to substantiate it.


- in hopes that the US government would take them in. You'd have to be incredibly naive to not think that isn't going on. Parents do that all the time here in the states...mothers will just drop their kid off at a hospital or an orphanage if they can't take care of them and run away.
While such things happen, they are, statistically speaking, quite rare. Certainly not in any proportion or the same level of magnitude to what we are seeing here with these separated children.



Or the crazy ones...just put their kids to sleep while they go out partying and sometimes those kids die.
And what on earth does that have to do with anything here? gakky people exist everywhere, but theres no evidence of such at play here.


Also - the same thing would happen to an american family here if they had a kid with them and couldn't prove that it belonged with them.
Broadly speaking, the cops would typically have to have reason and evidence to believe the child was not theirs, not just assuming it as a matter of fact, and there'd be a system in place to arrange reuinion, which was not the case here.

Then - even if it was theirs - the state could still hold the kid if the parents were considered unfit (These are indisputable facts). For some reason - you want to give illegal immigrants a different standard? It makes no sense.
Except there is nothing proving the immigrant parents were unfit...and that usually requires more than "oh hey we arrested you on a nonviolent misdemeanor charge".


You'd also have to be incredibly Niave to think that this is the fault of Republicans.
This particular policy? It's absolutely 100% the fault of Republicans, theyre the only ones calling for, supporting, formulating and implementing it.


This is the result of going soft as gak on immigration for decades while our country was literally invaded by illegal aliens at will - encouraging the next eager batch. Due to the fact their are safe havens and people willing to employ these illegals. If it were up to me. employing an illegal alien would have much more serious consequences eventually - with no work - they would have stopped coming anyways.
And now we've gone full AM radio...



What world do you live in where everyone is good? No one lies? No one cheats? It is human nature. It's not cynical to assume the worst out of a criminal. Get it right - these people are criminals.
By this standard, find me one person who isn't. I dont know anyone who made it out of college that couldnt have been hauled in for felony copyright violations between all the torrenting that was going on. My pal had a flash hider instead of a muzzle brake on his AR in CA without his kydex grip wrap thingy on once. I drank before I turned 21. My sister had a DUI at 19. I failed to declare a bottle of Port at customs when I came back from Cape Town.

Better assume the worst of all of us

By and large, we're not talking hardcore convicts here...you're going real hard out of your way to frame that picture though.


When it comes to people who are willing to cheat a system...break laws and break into a country illegally. I will always assume the worst. The gak they had to do to get here. Pay off human traffickers. Travel through the burning desert with children - these people are willing to do anything.
And yet, there's little data to support this level of paranoia.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/07/28/us/migrant-deaths-and-human-trafficking-by-the-numbers/index.html

I don't want to bombard you with 100+ articles from liberal authors on human trafficking. If you care about people it is THE problem to address.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Spoiler:
 Asherian Command wrote:
What the hell does this have to do with US politics? It happened we are dealing with it.


Another Politics story :

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/whistleblower-emails-show-police-lied-about-stormy-daniels-strip-club-arrest/


Emails said to be from a Columbus, Ohio detective’s account show that there may be more to the story of Stormy Daniels‘ arrest at a local strip club than police said. The emails were sent by a whistleblower to local newspaper The Fayette Advocate.

Daniels was arrested under a rarely-enforced state law that prohibits employees of strip clubs who dance nude or semi-nude from touching patrons. Daniels allegedly groped several people who turned out to be undercover cops when she made a guest appearance at Sirens. Because the statute clearly only applies to employees who regularly perform at a given establishment–while Daniels was a guest performer–prosecutors quickly moved to dismiss the case.

Police said after the fact that they were at Sirens as part of an investigation of possible prostitution and human trafficking, and Daniels just happened to be there that night. Emails purportedly from the account of Vice Detective Shana Keckley, however, indicate otherwise.

The emails include several messages that Keckley appears to have sent to herself prior to Daniels’ performance. Among them are images and articles about the adult film star, including an article promoting her appearance at Sirens, and a map image featuring the location of the club.

Other emails, dated after Daniels’ arrest, refer specifically to how Keckley and other named officers arrested her.

“It is clear that Keckley and her fellow officers were there because of Stormy and only because of Stormy,” the unnamed whistleblower told The Advocate. “The emails definitely show that the police lied about it being a prostitution and human trafficking mission.”

Daniels’ lawyer, Michael Avenatti, said that the information was “extremely disturbing,” in a tweet after the article was published.

“I intend on getting to truth and the bottom of who ordered @StormyDaniels arrested and why,” he added. “It appears that I was correct when I stated it was politically motivated.”


I can find another source if people want me to but seems interesting.


What world do you live in where everyone is good? No one lies? No one cheats? It is human nature. It's not cynical to assume the worst out of a criminal. Get it right - these people are criminals.


My family were literal criminals that came to Australia because they didn't pay taxes.

My other side of my family stowed away illegally on boats to cross the english channel. You have to be tone deaf not to realize your actually give us ammunition to fire back. Most Immigrants that have come to the US have been illegal boyo. That is what america has been built on for centuries. We are the melting pot nation, not the fourth reich of our dear leader.

WE are a nation of immigrants.

I'll borrow an argument I had with a similar poster :

"Yes we do. We need it, because the more people, the more thoughts, more ideas, from people who have the capacity to do more, only taking skill laborers is a stupid idea. There are stastically fewer of them. Considering most people are not skilled when they first enter from a country that is at war. These are refugees or asylum seekers, not your average immigrant. Mexico is at war. South America is experiencing massive turbluence, civilian refugees. Just turning them away what will that do? Why send them back? We have enough room. Alot of room infact.

Morally speaking it is inconsiderate to turn them away, we are breaking world laws and rulings on how to deal with them under this administration. Things will happen, the population will spike, we need replacements of the current population who do not do low skill labor, and more influx of bodies the more money we make. Because right now we have a lot of jobs, but not many workers for those jobs.

The economy will expand to deal with it, like it did under Regan and many other presidents."

We should never turn people away because we made assumptions on their character. People are people they make mistakes, and it is far harder to enter the united states legally now than it ever has been. Most people who enter the united states illegally are Canadians who overstay their visas and forget to renew. (https://nationalpost.com/news/world/northern-aliens-around-100000-canadians-live-under-the-radar-in-u-s-as-illegal-immigrants)

These people are unskilled for the moment but they have something that america sorely needs passion and the will to improve and make something of themselves. Each and every single person has that capacity to do more and to do good in turn. If nothing we do matters... , then all that matters is what we do. Those are words to live by and that is what these people will do, giving them a chance is the best thing to do here, not damning them, stealing babies from mothers, and separating them into cages like cattle.

Republicians created this stupid mess and they sure as hell should fix it, but they won't. Cause this past year or so has taught us anything, it has proved to us they can't. Not with their current incompatiable ideology, and a president who is racist, inconsiderate, unempathitic, lacks leadership, and a terrible human being. Once we have good moral people leading our country again hopefully that will change, and our nation will heal this blistering wound of xenophobia.

The economy blew up under Reagan because he lowered taxes on the rich. After a big boom it dropped again. It's not that special - the same thing is going to happen under trump. Rich have most of the money - when they are spending things look great. Not necessarily better for us though.

We have the lowest workforce participation in 50 years. Underemployment is at an all time high. This seriously suggests we don't have enough jobs. PLUS jobs are about to go down in the future - not up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/25 21:37:13


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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Leerstetten, Germany

Trafficking =\= migration.
   
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 d-usa wrote:
Trafficking =\= migration.

You are joking right? Who do you think transports these vulnerable people? It's a business. An unregulated illegal one. WHO DO YOU THINK CONTROLS this market?

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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Chicago

 Xenomancers wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
Trafficking =\= migration.

You are joking right? Who do you think transports these vulnerable people? It's a business. An unregulated illegal one. WHO DO YOU THINK CONTROLS this market?


You realize most people just fly over the border right?

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 Ustrello wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
Trafficking =\= migration.

You are joking right? Who do you think transports these vulnerable people? It's a business. An unregulated illegal one. WHO DO YOU THINK CONTROLS this market?


You realize most people just fly over the border right?

Preposterous, we all know people can't fly, they have no wings, nice try fake news!

Glad to see we circle back to illegals stealing ur jubs 5 pages after Mexico is stealing ur jubs and 10 pages after the last illegals are stealing ur jubs round.

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 Xenomancers wrote:

Blocking people you don't agree with. How very liberal of you. Plus yes - name calling is exceptionally lame. Don't worry though - I've got pretty thick skin. .


It keeps the mods happy, and me, usually, within rule 1. If this were twitter, where I don't have to be nice, well, a lot of Trumpetts have been busy blocking me, since a conservative getting in their faces for their bs doesn't fit the narrative.

The Republican party is hemorrhaging members, almost 10% since Trump's election. So, while I'm sure his approval ratings are high within the R, that's because anyone who didn't approve is leaving.

The Dems should congratulate you.


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Chicago

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
Trafficking =\= migration.

You are joking right? Who do you think transports these vulnerable people? It's a business. An unregulated illegal one. WHO DO YOU THINK CONTROLS this market?


You realize most people just fly over the border right?

Preposterous, we all know people can't fly, they have no wings, nice try fake news!

Glad to see we circle back to illegals stealing ur jubs 5 pages after Mexico is stealing ur jubs and 10 pages after the last illegals are stealing ur jubs round.


Yeah I don't know many Americans who would want to be produce pickers

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Leerstetten, Germany

 Xenomancers wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
Trafficking =\= migration.

You are joking right? Who do you think transports these vulnerable people? It's a business. An unregulated illegal one. WHO DO YOU THINK CONTROLS this market?


KLM trafficked my family I guess.
   
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Building a blood in water scent

 Xenomancers wrote:

-Let them all become citizens child plus family (This is unrealistic and fighting for it would be absolutely insane)
-Just take them at their word that they are their children (risky - could be a perfect way for people to kidnap children and put them into slavery the rest of their lives)(I prefer this over option 1)
-Keep doing what we are doing (Indifferent to this - the problem is being blown way out of proportion IMO - but we can do better)
-Create policy that allows identity to be verified through genetic testing - then release the families together (most preferable)

What do you propose?


I would go back to what was happening before Trump's policy.

Detained families are kept together unless there was good reason to suspect abuse or the child was otherwise in danger.

It's how it was done for years under Bush and Obama and still how we do it up here.

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 Ustrello wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
Trafficking =\= migration.

You are joking right? Who do you think transports these vulnerable people? It's a business. An unregulated illegal one. WHO DO YOU THINK CONTROLS this market?


You realize most people just fly over the border right?

Preposterous, we all know people can't fly, they have no wings, nice try fake news!

Glad to see we circle back to illegals stealing ur jubs 5 pages after Mexico is stealing ur jubs and 10 pages after the last illegals are stealing ur jubs round.


Yeah I don't know many Americans who would want to be produce pickers

Hehe, it might be less relevant to the US, but still similar. We did a test in the Netherlands a couple of years ago to 'force' unemployed people to find jobs in the produce picking sector, I believe literally 99.9% preferred staying unemployed over picking produce (like 10 out of 55.000+ ended up with a permanent job in the sector). Its gakky backbreaking work that citizens just don't want to do on either side of the pond.

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 Xenomancers wrote:

The economy blew up under Reagan because he lowered taxes on the rich. After a big boom it dropped again. It's not that special - the same thing is going to happen under trump.


There are a number of reasons this is not true.

One, Reagan took the US from the world's largest international creditor to the world's largest debtor nation. Despite the efforts of all the Presidents since then, the US is still in debt. There's no way to borrow the Us out of trouble like Reagan did.

Then there's this:



Reagan took for the poor and gave to the rich. Clinton took from the Rich and gave to the poor. In all truth, their results were similar, though Clinton's were somewhat better.


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The tax cuts Reagan gave to the rich were bad for the economy--the economic boom came from the '86 cuts which were on the middle class and paid for by closing loopholes on corporations & the wealthy.

This is what I mean when I say that responding to Xeno drags the thread down. Rather than discussing actual politics we are re-hashing basic truths and re-debunking lies that he will immediately and completely ignore.

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In fairness, that IS pretty true to the spirit of the subject matter these days.
   
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 NinthMusketeer wrote:

This is what I mean when I say that responding to Xeno drags the thread down. Rather than discussing actual politics we are re-hashing basic truths and re-debunking lies that he will immediately and completely ignore.


Fine, fine, will wait for mods to re-ban him for something.

Must also point out, there's a certain irony that one person on my block list is telling me to ignore another person on my block list.


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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The tax cuts Reagan gave to the rich were bad for the economy--the economic boom came from the '86 cuts which were on the middle class and paid for by closing loopholes on corporations & the wealthy.

This is what I mean when I say that responding to Xeno drags the thread down. Rather than discussing actual politics we are re-hashing basic truths and re-debunking lies that he will immediately and completely ignore.

Basic truths like - human trafficking is a serious problem - that leads to the deaths and enslavement on huge numbers of vulnerable south American immigrants?

Also did you read what I said about the Reagan boom. I agree with you - it was a farce. It did not create long term economic gains.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ustrello wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
Trafficking =\= migration.

You are joking right? Who do you think transports these vulnerable people? It's a business. An unregulated illegal one. WHO DO YOU THINK CONTROLS this market?


You realize most people just fly over the border right?

Preposterous, we all know people can't fly, they have no wings, nice try fake news!

Glad to see we circle back to illegals stealing ur jubs 5 pages after Mexico is stealing ur jubs and 10 pages after the last illegals are stealing ur jubs round.


Yeah I don't know many Americans who would want to be produce pickers

I know many Americans want to pay people less than minimum wage to do the job? What is your point? I see people everyday standing on the side of the road in 99 degree heat holding signs with resturant specials or even being required to dance to get people to come eat there. I am sure Americans will work jobs if the pay is right. I'm sure most of those people are being paid under the table too and under minimum wage which is also illegal.


I'm sure you are a strong supporter of minimum wage...are you not? I am too. In fact I think it should go up.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ustrello wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
Trafficking =\= migration.

You are joking right? Who do you think transports these vulnerable people? It's a business. An unregulated illegal one. WHO DO YOU THINK CONTROLS this market?


You realize most people just fly over the border right?

With what? hot air balloons?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/25 23:13:44


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in nl
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 Xenomancers wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
Trafficking =\= migration.

You are joking right? Who do you think transports these vulnerable people? It's a business. An unregulated illegal one. WHO DO YOU THINK CONTROLS this market?


You realize most people just fly over the border right?

With what? hot air balloons?

With those big metal birds that have been all the rage since 1903!

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 Xenomancers wrote:
With what? hot air balloons?
More like this
   
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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
Trafficking =\= migration.

You are joking right? Who do you think transports these vulnerable people? It's a business. An unregulated illegal one. WHO DO YOU THINK CONTROLS this market?


You realize most people just fly over the border right?

With what? hot air balloons?

With those big metal birds that have been all the rage since 1903!
I guess you are referring to the people that come here on green cards and go into hiding when the time has come try to renew their green card. This is also illegal immigration but this has little to do with illegal boarder crossings. Anyone here on a green card has proper identification and is at 0 risk of being separated from their children.

Any undocumented flight from Mexico would instantly be tracked as an invasion of our airspace and forced to the ground. This would probably be the dumbest way to smuggle people into this country.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Xenomancers wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
Trafficking =\= migration.

You are joking right? Who do you think transports these vulnerable people? It's a business. An unregulated illegal one. WHO DO YOU THINK CONTROLS this market?


You realize most people just fly over the border right?

With what? hot air balloons?

With those big metal birds that have been all the rage since 1903!
I guess you are referring to the people that come here on green cards and go into hiding when the time has come try to renew their green card. This is also illegal immigration but this has little to do with illegal boarder crossings. Anyone here on a green card has proper identification and is at 0 risk of being separated from their children.


Factually incorrect.
   
 
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