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Made in nl
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 warhead01 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I wonder how people are going to buy robots to take care of them when those same robots have made their jobs obsolete. Is it magic money or socialist reform?

Yes I think so. I think we will hit a tipping point were that subsistence allowance becomes very necessary because such a large percentage will need. Then it'll just be tacked onto the national debt or something.
I don't know if that will count as socialism or not. But that change will probably be something no one can argue against at that point. I would say that there are a cross section of jobs that when they are fully automated, it'll be time. Which is where it gets strange. If we have this influx of labor and those labor jobs go away, granted a lot of them probably wont, then what? If I recall the next job to worry about is trucking.
If we had a government that was more trustworthy I would encourage more Americans to join the military until that was out given profession. (Just something I have thought off an on over the years.)

Its never going to get tacked onto the national debt because if that tipping point comes the government would collapse unless business and the rich open their wallets.
Then what? If there are no jobs why would those people still go to the US if they have no chance of getting those types of benefits? If those jobs vanish the 'problem' of labor influx will solve itself.

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I wonder how people are going to buy robots to take care of them when those same robots have made their jobs obsolete. Is it magic money or socialist reform?


Robots will finally bring about the World Revolution. The capitalists will build the robots with which we will make them obsolete. We must seize the means of automation!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/26 19:05:03


Error 404: Interesting signature not found

 
   
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 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I wonder how people are going to buy robots to take care of them when those same robots have made their jobs obsolete. Is it magic money or socialist reform?


Robots will finally bring about the World Revolution. The capitalists will build the robots with which we will make them obsolete. We must seize the means of automation!


Yeah but in all seriousness something like that is bound to happen unless we all go back to the 1930's Europe and get to 'enjoy' our protect the wealthy industrialists fascist states.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/26 19:07:54


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 Iron_Captain wrote:

Robots will finally bring about the World Revolution. The capitalists will build the robots with which we will make them obsolete. We must seize the means of automation!



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/26 21:44:32



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Chicago

 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:

Robots will finally bring about the World Revolution. The capitalists will build the robots with which we will make them obsolete. We must seize the means of automation!





Ah Weimar Germany film, the industry that directly challenged Hollywood

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 Xenomancers wrote:
 monarda wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
It really is very simple - Increasing this countries population does not benefit me or the country in general - in any way. It's not Xenophobia - It's just common sense.



You've got it backwards. Prosperity leads to population booms.

I'd only need to refer you to Japan and China to prove your theory wrong. Japans population is decreasing and they have practically 0 immigration. China's population is shrinking and will have the largest economy in the world in the next 10 years.


And both are heading into trouble. Japan in particularly is getting desperate. Current economy system depends on everything, including population, growing or economy is screwed.

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This could get interesting. Trump dot org CFO called to testify. If this guy is same calibre as the rest of Trump's pals, I bet he's got a long and sloppy collection of financial fraud.

 Ouze wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I believe that there would be riots if the Mueller investigation was halted.


I doubt it. The GOP would love it and the dems are too dejected to do anything. The Mueller investigation was never, ever going to lead to impeachment anyway so the sooner that the left wing adjusts to that reality, the better. It's a red herring in terms of taking back power, which will not come at the hand of impeachment.



You're probably right. However, I think the investigation will be something concrete and undeniable to hammer the GOP with for the next several election cycles.

Proof positive that they can't be trusted with the reins of government until they get their gakshow of a party in order.

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 feeder wrote:
This could get interesting. Trump dot org CFO called to testify. If this guy is same calibre as the rest of Trump's pals, I bet he's got a long and sloppy collection of financial fraud.

 Ouze wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I believe that there would be riots if the Mueller investigation was halted.


I doubt it. The GOP would love it and the dems are too dejected to do anything. The Mueller investigation was never, ever going to lead to impeachment anyway so the sooner that the left wing adjusts to that reality, the better. It's a red herring in terms of taking back power, which will not come at the hand of impeachment.



You're probably right. However, I think the investigation will be something concrete and undeniable to hammer the GOP with for the next several election cycles.

Proof positive that they can't be trusted with the reins of government until they get their gakshow of a party in order.

Question is how many GOP voters care about this investigation? It is great if the Democrats want to beat the GOP with it, but if GOP voters wouldn't care than they'd just be preaching for their own congregation.

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 Iron_Captain wrote:
 feeder wrote:
This could get interesting. Trump dot org CFO called to testify. If this guy is same calibre as the rest of Trump's pals, I bet he's got a long and sloppy collection of financial fraud.

 Ouze wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I believe that there would be riots if the Mueller investigation was halted.


I doubt it. The GOP would love it and the dems are too dejected to do anything. The Mueller investigation was never, ever going to lead to impeachment anyway so the sooner that the left wing adjusts to that reality, the better. It's a red herring in terms of taking back power, which will not come at the hand of impeachment.



You're probably right. However, I think the investigation will be something concrete and undeniable to hammer the GOP with for the next several election cycles.

Proof positive that they can't be trusted with the reins of government until they get their gakshow of a party in order.

Question is how many GOP voters care about this investigation? It is great if the Democrats want to beat the GOP with it, but if GOP voters wouldn't care than they'd just be preaching for their own congregation.


The apparently all-important, perhaps mythical, "undecided voter".

We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".

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Doesn't matter how many GOP voters care about it. It just needs to remind everyone else what not voting can put in power.
   
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 Iron_Captain wrote:
 feeder wrote:
This could get interesting. Trump dot org CFO called to testify. If this guy is same calibre as the rest of Trump's pals, I bet he's got a long and sloppy collection of financial fraud.

 Ouze wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I believe that there would be riots if the Mueller investigation was halted.


I doubt it. The GOP would love it and the dems are too dejected to do anything. The Mueller investigation was never, ever going to lead to impeachment anyway so the sooner that the left wing adjusts to that reality, the better. It's a red herring in terms of taking back power, which will not come at the hand of impeachment.



You're probably right. However, I think the investigation will be something concrete and undeniable to hammer the GOP with for the next several election cycles.

Proof positive that they can't be trusted with the reins of government until they get their gakshow of a party in order.

Question is how many GOP voters care about this investigation? It is great if the Democrats want to beat the GOP with it, but if GOP voters wouldn't care than they'd just be preaching for their own congregation.


It does it's job if it gets dems to vote. Remember Trump didn't win because he succeeded, his vote amount for reb was fairly bad actually, but because dem failed. Those vote amounts tanked even harder.

It's not about getting are to vote d or reverse but getting are vote are or d vote d rather than stay home

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 warhead01 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I wonder how people are going to buy robots to take care of them when those same robots have made their jobs obsolete. Is it magic money or socialist reform?

Yes I think so. I think we will hit a tipping point were that subsistence allowance becomes very necessary because such a large percentage will need. Then it'll just be tacked onto the national debt or something.
I don't know if that will count as socialism or not. But that change will probably be something no one can argue against at that point. I would say that there are a cross section of jobs that when they are fully automated, it'll be time. Which is where it gets strange. If we have this influx of labor and those labor jobs go away, granted a lot of them probably wont, then what? If I recall the next job to worry about is trucking.
If we had a government that was more trustworthy I would encourage more Americans to join the military until that was out given profession. (Just something I have thought off an on over the years.)


I agree actually.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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Disciple of Fate wrote:Its not a bad deal, but yesterday Trump already put aside a 12 billion dollar subsidy budget to save those farmers. He was saving those farmers regardless, but now the EU swooped in and secured a good deal in which it didn't have to give in anything while looking very helpful.
Doesn't that mean that Trump/the USA are kinda—in a way—subsidising cheap soy based products for Europe? China will buy less (due to tariffs) so there will be more supply (as US farmers predicted higher demand) and at the same time the USA is giving those farmers money (there'll be some accountability and not just a lottery so there'll be incentives to keep it growing to collect the money). In the end that should lead to Europe getting the product really cheap.
   
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USA

 Frazzled wrote:
 warhead01 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I wonder how people are going to buy robots to take care of them when those same robots have made their jobs obsolete. Is it magic money or socialist reform?

Yes I think so. I think we will hit a tipping point were that subsistence allowance becomes very necessary because such a large percentage will need. Then it'll just be tacked onto the national debt or something.
I don't know if that will count as socialism or not. But that change will probably be something no one can argue against at that point. I would say that there are a cross section of jobs that when they are fully automated, it'll be time. Which is where it gets strange. If we have this influx of labor and those labor jobs go away, granted a lot of them probably wont, then what? If I recall the next job to worry about is trucking.
If we had a government that was more trustworthy I would encourage more Americans to join the military until that was out given profession. (Just something I have thought off an on over the years.)


I agree actually.
]

I think the end game is that Marx was right in the long run give or take another century or two... assuming we're not all dead yet cause I don't know. Global warming or nuclear winter. W/E. Capitalism will inevitably become so efficient it no longer needs human labor. At that point the capitalist either support a large, mostly industrially irrelevant, population out of their own pocket (which seems horribly inefficient and kind of pointless) or the capital will become property of the society it supports or some mix of those two extremes. I think the former though is really just asking for a dystopian fantasy to become reality while the later is a society so unlike our own I don't think anyone will know how it works until it does/doesn't.

   
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Mario wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:Its not a bad deal, but yesterday Trump already put aside a 12 billion dollar subsidy budget to save those farmers. He was saving those farmers regardless, but now the EU swooped in and secured a good deal in which it didn't have to give in anything while looking very helpful.
Doesn't that mean that Trump/the USA are kinda—in a way—subsidising cheap soy based products for Europe? China will buy less (due to tariffs) so there will be more supply (as US farmers predicted higher demand) and at the same time the USA is giving those farmers money (there'll be some accountability and not just a lottery so there'll be incentives to keep it growing to collect the money). In the end that should lead to Europe getting the product really cheap.

It depends if they still receive the subsidies now that they have a market for the soy, likely, because EU demand doesn't live up to US production. But even so, the European producers market is tiny, much smaller than demand. The whole EU produces 2.7 million tons a years, the US 115 million tons. We want cheap subsidized US soy beans because we barely produce any ourselves (and the EU protects its farmers anyway). But with the subsidies its likely they will rise in price again, because the need to dump them somewhere else is going to be reduced while China is going to hunt down non-US soybean producers. The EU has enabled a game of musical chairs. We can import less from other countries who are free to export to China now, while we can bridge that gap with US imports to butter up Trump and get what we want, likely still at a better price though. Because other countries prices will go up while the US is still stuck with an amount they can't sell now.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/26 23:28:34


 
   
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 LordofHats wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 warhead01 wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
I wonder how people are going to buy robots to take care of them when those same robots have made their jobs obsolete. Is it magic money or socialist reform?

Yes I think so. I think we will hit a tipping point were that subsistence allowance becomes very necessary because such a large percentage will need. Then it'll just be tacked onto the national debt or something.
I don't know if that will count as socialism or not. But that change will probably be something no one can argue against at that point. I would say that there are a cross section of jobs that when they are fully automated, it'll be time. Which is where it gets strange. If we have this influx of labor and those labor jobs go away, granted a lot of them probably wont, then what? If I recall the next job to worry about is trucking.
If we had a government that was more trustworthy I would encourage more Americans to join the military until that was out given profession. (Just something I have thought off an on over the years.)


I agree actually.
]

I think the end game is that Marx was right in the long run give or take another century or two... assuming we're not all dead yet cause I don't know. Global warming or nuclear winter. W/E. Capitalism will inevitably become so efficient it no longer needs human labor. At that point the capitalist either support a large, mostly industrially irrelevant, population out of their own pocket (which seems horribly inefficient and kind of pointless) or the capital will become property of the society it supports or some mix of those two extremes. I think the former though is really just asking for a dystopian fantasy to become reality while the later is a society so unlike our own I don't think anyone will know how it works until it does/doesn't.
Great, now In the Year 2525 is running through my head....



As pointed out, birthrate in prosperous non-agrarian societies drops. Sometimes drastically.

Pulling out Switzerland as an interesting case in point - the population has increased by 150% since the post WWII years, in spite of the birthrate dropping to 1.5 from the post war boom of 2.5.

Any guesses where the population growth is coming from?

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 Iron_Captain wrote:
Question is how many GOP voters care about this investigation? It is great if the Democrats want to beat the GOP with it, but if GOP voters wouldn't care than they'd just be preaching for their own congregation.


The midterm elections are coming up soon. If you look at registered voters, traditionally the democrats have a larger base of voters, but they are unreliable. The GOP has smaller numbers, but they are much more reliable.

As a result when the democrats have an energized base they tend to do better because there are simply more of them. The GOP base essentially shows up no matter what.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

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 Ouze wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Question is how many GOP voters care about this investigation? It is great if the Democrats want to beat the GOP with it, but if GOP voters wouldn't care than they'd just be preaching for their own congregation.


The midterm elections are coming up soon. If you look at registered voters, traditionally the democrats have a larger base of voters, but they are unreliable. The GOP has smaller numbers, but they are much more reliable.

As a result when the democrats have an energized base they tend to do better because there are simply more of them. The GOP base essentially shows up no matter what.
It still confuses me how the GOP does not seem to realize in the slightest that the majority of the country being against them is a major problem, if not the most significant one they have. The work on suppressing opposition voters without even pausing to question why the opposition outnumbers them and continues to do so by an increasing margin.

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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

No collusion.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
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Being completely honest I don't believe Trump didn't collude (Trump of course doesn't know what the word means), but I don't know if I believe Cohen either. His entire behavior since being drawn into this has seemed kind of odd, almost like he enjoys the drama of it all. I don't know that I'd want to base anything on his word without lots of back up.

   
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I certainly believe that Cohen is not as credible as one would like. No one in Trump's circle, functionally, is.

I find it less likely that a meeting that important would happen at Trump Tower without Trump knowing about it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/27 01:45:28


 lord_blackfang wrote:
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 Ouze wrote:


I find it less likely that a meeting that important would happen at Trump Tower without Trump knowing about it.



Oh there's no fething way he didn't know about it.

I doubt that'll ever be proved though, and Cohen certainly isn't the man who will crack the evidence.

   
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Fort Worth, TX

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Question is how many GOP voters care about this investigation? It is great if the Democrats want to beat the GOP with it, but if GOP voters wouldn't care than they'd just be preaching for their own congregation.


The midterm elections are coming up soon. If you look at registered voters, traditionally the democrats have a larger base of voters, but they are unreliable. The GOP has smaller numbers, but they are much more reliable.

As a result when the democrats have an energized base they tend to do better because there are simply more of them. The GOP base essentially shows up no matter what.
It still confuses me how the GOP does not seem to realize in the slightest that the majority of the country being against them is a major problem, if not the most significant one they have. The work on suppressing opposition voters without even pausing to question why the opposition outnumbers them and continues to do so by an increasing margin.


Belief is a powerful thing. Look at all of the religions around you. Logically, they can't all possibly be right, but people still believe in their chosen religion, regardless of how outnumbered they may be in that belief. And then you factor in that many political beliefs are founded in, or influenced by, religious beliefs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LordofHats wrote:
 Ouze wrote:


I find it less likely that a meeting that important would happen at Trump Tower without Trump knowing about it.



Oh there's no fething way he didn't know about it.

I doubt that'll ever be proved though, and Cohen certainly isn't the man who will crack the evidence.


I sometimes wonder if Trump really knew much of anything, anyway. It's almost like he just wants to sit in the middle of a whirlwind of yes-men who fulfill his wishes, without even really paying attention to anything they do or say. Just nodding along to them as long as they give him what he wants.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/27 02:00:42


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 Tannhauser42 wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Question is how many GOP voters care about this investigation? It is great if the Democrats want to beat the GOP with it, but if GOP voters wouldn't care than they'd just be preaching for their own congregation.


The midterm elections are coming up soon. If you look at registered voters, traditionally the democrats have a larger base of voters, but they are unreliable. The GOP has smaller numbers, but they are much more reliable.

As a result when the democrats have an energized base they tend to do better because there are simply more of them. The GOP base essentially shows up no matter what.
It still confuses me how the GOP does not seem to realize in the slightest that the majority of the country being against them is a major problem, if not the most significant one they have. The work on suppressing opposition voters without even pausing to question why the opposition outnumbers them and continues to do so by an increasing margin.


Belief is a powerful thing. Look at all of the religions around you. Logically, they can't all possibly be right, but people still believe in their chosen religion, regardless of how outnumbered they may be in that belief. And then you factor in that many political beliefs are founded in, or influenced by, religious beliefs.
I can see that, but there are a lot of differences. A religion just is not the same as a political party; that analogy only goes so far. Though I am inviting the comparison of blind faith here, doubly so given the state of the GOP that only runs off the blind faith of its base. So perhaps that comparison is more true than it may initially seem.

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tneva82 wrote:


And both are heading into trouble. Japan in particularly is getting desperate. Current economy system depends on everything, including population, growing or economy is screwed.


And is probably the biggest threat the world is facing today. All those efforts to turn people vegan, to reduce the cattle population and emissions and pollution and what-have-you? A misguided attempt to solve a symptom, rather than the actual problem, which is overpopulation.
And our economic system is not only ill-equipped to handle it, it's outright hostile. Our social systems are not much better. No, I don't have a solution either.
   
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Northern IA

I hope to hell that my fellow Iowans see through this charade....

Trump says he "opened up Europe for you farmers" and claimed that it was essentialy a closed market up until then.

The Iowa Soybean Growers spokesperson said flat out afterward: Europe has always been open for trade, and they've been trading.

That man cannot tell the truth on anything...

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Bran Dawri wrote:
tneva82 wrote:


And both are heading into trouble. Japan in particularly is getting desperate. Current economy system depends on everything, including population, growing or economy is screwed.


And is probably the biggest threat the world is facing today. All those efforts to turn people vegan, to reduce the cattle population and emissions and pollution and what-have-you? A misguided attempt to solve a symptom, rather than the actual problem, which is overpopulation.
And our economic system is not only ill-equipped to handle it, it's outright hostile. Our social systems are not much better. No, I don't have a solution either.

The problem isn't overpopulation, the problem is that the economic system is focused on where the money is and that leads to incredible amounts of waste. The issue isn't overpopulation, because we haven't reached that tipping point yet where we couldn't sustain the population. The issue is that people want more of everything and everything cheaper. The West has a small population compared to the rest of the world, yet by far we are the worst for the planet, we don't have to be, we just want to. Its a societal and economic mindset, not overpopulation. We don't have to eat meat everyday, that's just something that came about in the 50's, yet its incredibly hard to break that pattern. Technology might reach the point that cattle is no longer needed to get meat, but try telling people to moderate now to have something tomorrow..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 TheMeanDM wrote:
I hope to hell that my fellow Iowans see through this charade....

Trump says he "opened up Europe for you farmers" and claimed that it was essentialy a closed market up until then.

The Iowa Soybean Growers spokesperson said flat out afterward: Europe has always been open for trade, and they've been trading.

That man cannot tell the truth on anything...

Hehe, like I said, we even got Trump to sell the deal to the US. Trump just got those farmers a worse deal, but seeing as they are also his base it seems unlikely they can admit that. Plus the hilarious part is that the EU couldn't even promise to buy more soybeans, because the EU has nothing to do with actually setting import quantaties on anything (having access to cheap US soybeans now that Trump destroyed the market for them is great though, which would drive up demand to some extent), the only thing they can do is remove tariffs or trade barriers, which weren't in place in the EU anyway. The EU offered hot air (although access to LNG is important for the EU energy future, but again they don't set the amount) and in exchange Trump took the carpart tariffs off the table which is huge for the EU. The art of the deal, as gone unnoticed by Trump, being distracted by one of the most unfriendly EU politicians playing pretend nice

As for the truth, honestly I don't think he was actually lying conciously, more that he just doesn't know anything on this topic so he just assumed it wasn't happening. Ignorance seems more likely considering soybeans id pretty niche and he hasn't got a clue about more generalized US topics.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/07/27 06:45:40


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 TheMeanDM wrote:
I hope to hell that my fellow Iowans see through this charade....
All eight of them?

I know, I know, that was low. But I just had to.

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https://www.npr.org/2018/07/27/632640711/u-s-could-see-blockbuster-economic-growth-number-today

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That's a nice one off that Trump will now claim to have happened over his entire 4 years

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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