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What is “regressive left”, Formosa?

No they want to stop RIGHT wingers marching in the street, that pathetic group of actual nazis marching with the Tiki torches (which was hilarious in how absurd they were) was easily ignored, they were no threat, however the rioting and looting in the name of BLM IS a TANGIBLE and REAL threat to people lives and lively hood within their own communities, stop claiming that being right wing makes people Nazis, it doesnt, just as being left wing doesnt make people marxists.

Tiki torches are basically molotovs with handles, the obfuscation attempt is cute, but these are people rallying to calls like "blood and soil" which are known Nazi party rhetoric.

Remind me when BLM killed three people in a terror attack by running them down with a car?

Rosebuddy the right is on the rise, not fascism, I understand you can’t tell the difference, but most of us can, we can also see that as a direct result of the actions of people like antifa, BLM etc. That the right is having more people flock to them.

I mean Rosebuddy's nailed it, and I believe they already called it out several pages ago, this sham "the left is making people become card carrying Nazis" is also an alt-right propaganda tactic.

Thats mainly because of you and a few others to be fair, I see you use standard regressive left tactics and jump in to defend another person or set you straight, even knowing that you wont listen

Not being willing to consider nonsense talking points isn't a "tactic", it's common sense.

 greatbigtree wrote:
What is “regressive left”, Formosa?

Its a term to Identify a certain group of far leftists, this group considers themselves progressives but the actions they use paint a very different story, rather than calling them "SJWs" which is a derogatory term and not entirely accurate, regressive left fits the radical nature of these people without the loaded connotations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regressive_left

JFC what a train wreck. Black people are responsible for racism, the left is responsible for Nazis, but oh wait we shouldn't talk about the people marching around with swastikas and praising Hitler because what really matters is "the left". It's like you're trying to be a parody of the right.

Tiki torches are basically molotovs with handles, the obfuscation attempt is cute, but these are people rallying to calls like "blood and soil" which are known Nazi party rhetoric.

So what, there was about 600 of these idiots, they are not a threat, as much as you may want them to be, they are not even organised in any meaningful way, the nazis are not a problem, the Alt right is, learn the difference please.

Remind me when BLM killed three people in a terror attack by running them down with a car?

So advocating violence against the police over a lie is ok? destroying your own community is ok? you know one doesnt make the other right yeah? they are not mutually exclusive.

I mean Rosebuddy's nailed it, and I believe they already called it out several pages ago, this sham "the left is making people become card carrying Nazis" is also an alt-right propaganda tactic.

No Rosebuddy did not call it, he equates anyone on the right as being a nazi, which is frankly stupid, when centerists and leftists see violence done in their name they get put off, it really is that simple, no one wants to be associated with these fools, sad thing is most of you dont even realise its the centre left and centre right that opposes the far left the most, those Alt right Idiots are just as bad as the far left, both use that pathetic identity politics.

Not being willing to consider nonsense talking points isn't a "tactic", it's common sense.

then I am afraid I cannot help you, but I wont stop pointing out how wrong you are (if you are) when I see it, and the sheer fact that you are refusing to have your ideal challenged says an awful lot in support of what I have been saying for a long time.


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Black people are responsible for racism,

Your words, not mine, I said they are responsible for their own communities, which they are.

the left is responsible for Nazis

The left is party responsible, as I have said TWICE and I have said TWICE, that its not Nazis, just the right wing, please learn the difference.

but oh wait we shouldn't talk about the people marching around with swastikas and praising Hitler

Oh no, we absolutely should talk about, by all means, lets mock these idiots for what they are, I am also willing to mock the Far left for the idiots that they are, got to have equality havent we peregrine

because what really matters is "the left". It's like you're trying to be a parody of the right.

Well since you all keep pretending like they are the paragon of moral virtue in spite of all evidence, yeah, and its the "FAR left" to be clear, got to be clear about those terms eh

 Formosa wrote:

So what, there was about 600 of these idiots, they are not a threat, as much as you may want them to be, they are not even organised in any meaningful way, the nazis are not a problem, the Alt right is, learn the difference please.

Well, one it's hard with that much membership overlap, and there's way more than 600 of these guys.

If you don't think they're organized, I might remind you that Trump's election sparked the largest Nazi gatherings since the Nuremberg Rallies, where they declared him the, and I believe i have the quote right, 'Savior of World Nazism'.


I agree that the alt right is the real threat, but it's like saying that jelly beans are the real threat, but they're different from Green Jelly beans.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

So what, there was about 600 of these idiots, they are not a threat, as much as you may want them to be, they are not even organised in any meaningful way, the nazis are not a problem, the Alt right is, learn the difference please.

Well, one it's hard with that much membership overlap, and there's way more than 600 of these guys.

If you don't think they're organized, I might remind you that Trump's election sparked the largest Nazi gatherings since the Nuremberg Rallies, where they declared him the, and I believe i have the quote right, 'Savior of World Nazism'.


I agree that the alt right is the real threat, but it's like saying that jelly beans are the real threat, but they're different from Green Jelly beans.

My apologies I should have been clearer, I meant at that march, if thats the best they can organise then I am happy to laugh at them, when I see the thousands of Nazis running around and compare them to the MILLIONS of centre and left people, then yep, I dont see them as a threat, it would be laughable to think that there are millions of them though, if there were we would see a very different US.

There is an overlap with Nazis in the Alt right, however its not large, the Alt Right is a loosely joined group of people with all manner of right wing views with the main thing uniting them is the desire for Ethno states, they engage in the same Identity politics as the regressive left, however one wants fascism, the other wants marxism, both ideologies that have failed time and time again and have led to the deaths of millions.

While were on the subject of the Alt Right however, I do find it very worrying that people keep getting labelled at "alt right" just for being right wing, even people who the Alt right absolutely hate with a passion get labelled as such, its just a very weak attempt to discredit people who have another view and should be treated with the same disgust as the far right accusing anyone on the left of being marxist...

 Formosa wrote:

So what, there was about 600 of these idiots, they are not a threat, as much as you may want them to be, they are not even organised in any meaningful way, the nazis are not a problem, the Alt right is, learn the difference please.

The alt right are nazis. The thing that makes them the "alternative right" is not that they are rude or vulgar but that they embrace notions of scientific racism that the traditional right have at least officially distanced themselves from.

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

So what, there was about 600 of these idiots, they are not a threat, as much as you may want them to be, they are not even organised in any meaningful way, the nazis are not a problem, the Alt right is, learn the difference please.

The alt right are nazis. The thing that makes them the "alternative right" is not that they are rude or vulgar but that they embrace notions of scientific racism that the traditional right have at least officially distanced themselves from.

This is only a short video but it should help you understand what the Alt right actually is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHXL00wY3nY

"The alt right aren't Nazis, they just want to commit genocide to create a white ethno-state."

Do you honestly consider this a compelling argument?

This is also very good and quite funny at parts Rosebuddy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqUaEJLfrLo


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 Peregrine wrote:
"The alt right aren't Nazis, they just want to commit genocide to create a white ethno-state."

Do you honestly consider this a compelling argument?

No, because thats your paraphrased argument and not mine, I made a statement of fact, the Alt Right are not Nazis, this is provably true and even a quick google search will show you this and as I said previously there is an overlap in beliefs, the Alt Right wants Ethno states, they engage in identity politics and colectivist ideologies, which should be opposed and thankfully are, the Nazis are a tiny tiny amount of people some of which are part of the Alt Right, if we use your logic then everyone in the UK is black because we have a small number of black people here.

Also single line statements are not compelling arguments either, please elaborate on your next post peregrine or I will simply ignore it.

 Formosa wrote:


No they want to stop RIGHT wingers marching in the street, that pathetic group of actual nazis marching with the Tiki torches (which was hilarious in how absurd they were) was easily ignored, they were no threat

I mean...right up until they murdered a woman by driving into a crowd and committed multiple acts of assault and battery for which there have been multiple convictions...

however the rioting and looting in the name of BLM IS a TANGIBLE and REAL threat to people lives and lively hood within their own communities

Despite living in one of the most politically intensive cities in the US, living a couple minutes away from an ICE facility shut down by protestors a few weeks ago and 5 minutes from where Patriot Prayer and BLM/Antifa/Etc routinely wrangle and not too much farther from where two people were killed by a racist knife wielder on a streetcar last year, I gotta tell ya, I'm not seeing roving BLM gangs rolling around town on a daily basis in my community rioting and looting, and the closest anyone has come to being killed in political street fighting has been at the hands of a police flash-bang grenade to the head.

I don't need more than one line to point out how terrible your argument is. "White ethno-state" means genocide, period. I have no idea why you are so insistent on trying to pretend that there is some major difference between that and Nazism.

I mean...right up until they murdered a woman by driving into a crowd and committed multiple acts of assault and battery for which there have been multiple convictions...

there was no violence at the Tiki march, they were seperate incidences, one was a nazi march, the other was a member of the alt right, this proves my statement that the alt right is more dangerous, it does not debunk it.

Despite living in one of the most politically intensive cities in the US, living a couple minutes away from an ICE facility shut down by protestors a few weeks ago and 5 minutes from where Patriot Prayer and BLM/Antifa/Etc routinely wrangle and not too much farther from where two people were killed by a racist knife wielder on a streetcar last year, I gotta tell ya, I'm not seeing roving BLM gangs rolling around town on a daily basis in my community rioting and looting, and the closest anyone has come to being killed in political street fighting has been at the hands of a police flash-bang grenade to the head.

So this is ok by you then as long as no one dies? its ok to go around and threaten the police? its ok to destroy and undermine your own community?

where do we draw the line, for me its simple, if you threaten violence or are violent then you have gone too far, BLM/Antifa/Etc. have done so multiple times, so has the Alt Right, neither is acceptable and it bothers me greatly that several of you are unwilling to condemn them for these actions.




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 Peregrine wrote:
I don't need more than one line to point out how terrible your argument is. "White ethno-state" means genocide, period. I have no idea why you are so insistent on trying to pretend that there is some major difference between that and Nazism.

Yes you do, otherwise you are pointing out nothing other than you have no argument to make, you are incapable of refuting what I have said so you are resorting to sniping tactics to try and pick out little things you think you can combat, at least the others are actually making some points, a couple of things I actually agree with.

Stating an argument is terrible is not an argument peregrine, either engage with the conversation in a meaningful way or please just leave while I talk to people who are.

I don't need dozens of paragraphs to point out your absurd attempts to argue that genocidal extremists (as you yourself declare them to be) are meaningfully different from Nazis. It's right there in your own words.

 Peregrine wrote:
I don't need dozens of paragraphs to point out your absurd attempts to argue that genocidal extremists (as you yourself declare them to be) are meaningfully different from Nazis. It's right there in your own words.

The Nazis have commited genocide, the Alt right has not, again lets use your logic here, anyone on the left should be stopped utterly in there tracks because communism has killed millions, leftism has overlaps with communism right through to full on marxism, does that mean that every leftist is by default a marxist? of course not, thats a terribly stupid thing to think, the "genocidal Extremists" statement can just as easily be directed at the regressive left using your logic.

can you not see how that is an utterly facile thing to say? the alt right are NOT Nazis, the alt right HAVE nazis within the loosely based group, both groups have an overlap in their beliefs but one does not equate the other, now refute this point if you can or again I ask you to politely stop derailing the discussion.

The alt right march happily under the banners of the nazis and don't do a single thing to distance themselves from them. Any distinction is academic at best. Materially, both of them wish to institute nazism. They've got nazi ideals. Ergo, the alt right are nazis.

 Formosa wrote:

Despite living in one of the most politically intensive cities in the US, living a couple minutes away from an ICE facility shut down by protestors a few weeks ago and 5 minutes from where Patriot Prayer and BLM/Antifa/Etc routinely wrangle and not too much farther from where two people were killed by a racist knife wielder on a streetcar last year, I gotta tell ya, I'm not seeing roving BLM gangs rolling around town on a daily basis in my community rioting and looting, and the closest anyone has come to being killed in political street fighting has been at the hands of a police flash-bang grenade to the head.

So this is ok by you then as long as no one dies? its ok to go around and threaten the police? its ok to destroy and undermine your own community?

I'll reiterate, I'm not seeing roving Antifa or BLM gangs rolling around doing these things. I live and work on two different ends of town and pass though downtown and most of the length of the city on a daily basis. There are tensions with police, there are tensions with protestors of various stripes, there are all sorts of unsavory elements in town, but there are no nightly BLM riots, no roving gangs of marxist thugs, no communities being held hostage, etc.

I can tell you what concerns me infinitely more than Black Lives Matter or anyone calling themselves Antifa or anyone at the Patriot Prayer rallies, and that's the issue of homelessness and mental health. I'm waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more worried about being stabbed by a homeless person with a severe mental illness or drug issue than I am about anything politically related. I run into crazy homeless people on a near daily basis, and often see them carrying blades (of various sorts for various reasons), however I have never run into a roving gang of BLM or Antifa ruffians terrorizing my community.

where do we draw the line, for me its simple, if you threaten violence or are violent then you have gone too far, BLM/Antifa/Etc. have done so multiple times, so has the Alt Right, neither is acceptable and it bothers me greatly that several of you are unwilling to condemn them for these actions.

If you have specific instances to refer to, ok, but when you're making sweeping generalized claims about Antifa/BLM destroying communities and looting and whatnot, I'm forced to wonder where that's coming from because I sure as hell don't see it, and I'm surrounded by high-tension political street events, but they're generally all known ahead of time and are kept isolated to small parts of town with huge police presences and specific timelines and pretty much all the crazy stuff occurs there.

@ Formosa:

I appreciate the link. That seems oddly specific to Leftists that are (arguably) overly tolerant of a specific religious group's extremist elements.

So, I wouldn't say that applies to many liberal minded persons that would realize that "rights" end at the point they encounter another person's "rights". One can't claim in good conscience that a person has the right to oppress another, regardless of the reason.

Just because a person has a right to their own religious beliefs, does not give them permission to oppress or enslave others. I don't think many Liberals / leftists would disagree.


And anyone that holds Nazi-esque beliefs can reasonably be referred to as such, though I believe we're supposed to avoid that reference in this thread. When they start talking about ethnicity, inferior peoples, that sort of thing? It's semantics whether or not you refer by the other big N.

They're bad dudes, that take a more active role in being bad to other people than people that fool themselves into believing that all points of view deserve to be defended. One is active bad, the other is passive bad.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'll reiterate, I'm not seeing roving BLM gangs rolling around doing these things. I live and work on two different ends of town and pass though downtown and most of the length of the city on a daily basis.

Just to join this, last time I looked up local BLM they had just had a meet and greet bbq with the local cops and had joint statements about improving relationships between the cops and the community.

This city had some of the worst race riots during the civil rights movement. To say there are tensions is a bit of an understatement. The only protestor related problems we've had in the last few years are an even split between suburban anarchists trying to start gak and suburban alt-righters jumping old people that look different than them.

There's plenty of loud idiots who associate themselves with BLM online, but frankly your average online idiot rarely goes outside, I've found active political communities that involve going outside and actually doing something are far, far more reasonable than anything you find online.

I appreciate the link. That seems oddly specific to Leftists that are (arguably) overly tolerant of a specific religious group's extremist elements.

yes its specific to leftists as is alt right the the right wing, it should go without saying (but we both know what dakka is like lol) that it doesnt cover the full gambit of far leftism.

So, I wouldn't say that applies to many liberal minded persons that would realize that "rights" end at the point they encounter another person's "rights". One can't claim in good conscience that a person has the right to oppress another, regardless of the reason.

Then we would agree on this so just as I push back against the right for oppressing people, I push back against the left for the same thing.

Just because a person has a right to their own religious beliefs, does not give them permission to oppress or enslave others. I don't think many Liberals / leftists would disagree.

and I can give you many many tweets and some links to Far leftists saying just that, its completely bonkers, and I have even seen Feminists of all things condone certain religions oppressive behaviour as its part of their culture, see why I want to distance myself from that kind of thinking.... its literally crazy!

And anyone that holds Nazi-esque beliefs can reasonably be referred to as such, though I believe we're supposed to avoid that reference in this thread. When they start talking about ethnicity, inferior peoples, that sort of thing? It's semantics whether or not you refer by the other big N.

See This I must disagree with simply as language is important to me, I will only refer to someone as such if they are actually a Nazi, I firmly believe that over use of the term has led to a watering down of its impact the "cry wolf" effect, people can say whatever they like and I cant stop them but I advise caution when labelling people such a thing just because they have differing views and its indisputable that the far left has over used this term when defining its political opponents.

They're bad dudes, that take a more active role in being bad to other people than people that fool themselves into believing that all points of view deserve to be defended. One is active bad, the other is passive bad.

yes they are and they need to be seen and all points of view DO need to be expressed, as I pointed out earlier in this thread the UK had ... HAD a racist white supremicist group called the British national party, they were Neo Nazi and racist to the core, but they got some power due to a media ban that was on them, as soon as it was lifted and they were on the Beeb, people saw them for what they were and the party fell apart in very short order due to a total erosion of support, plus the old adage is true "know your enemy" I want these people where I can see them and keep a very close eye on them to make sure they never get any real power, democratically of course.

.


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Rosebuddy wrote:
The alt right march happily under the banners of the nazis and don't do a single thing to distance themselves from them. Any distinction is academic at best. Materially, both of them wish to institute nazism. They've got nazi ideals. Ergo, the alt right are nazis.

The far Left marches happily under the banners of marxism and dont do a thing to distance themselves from them, any distinction is academic at best, materially both of them with to institute communism, they got Marxist ideal, ergo the far left are marxists.....


See how this absolutely helps no one, see how its an utterly facile statement with no substance that can so easily thrown back at you, come on man, at least leave a meaningful comment that contributes to the discussion like Yeoldsaltpotato, Vaktahi and greatbigtree has, in fact I found Vaktahis response quite useful as it showed that there are other sides to these movements.

Unconnected, I want to mention that a few months ago, the city where I live had a gang of bikers roar through town, with a police escort.

The police escort was an honor guard for the Patriot Riders.

We live in a world where a biker gang shows up to protect military funerals from a church organization... and are honored by the local police for it.

Strange to say, I feel a good deal of pride about that. They are being recognized, and that is a good thing.

The Auld Grump

The Patriot Guard is far from a biker gang.

 d-usa wrote:
The Patriot Guard is far from a biker gang.

Yeah I was going to say

Richard Spencer, notorious neo-Nazi* and general scumbag, embraced the term "alt-right" back in 2010 in order to get away from the stigma associated with the far right. Here we are in 2018 with people claiming that the alt-right and Nazis are two completely distinct things. Sure, they aren't, in the sense that they aren't card-carrying members of the NSDAP, but I'm pretty sure we all know that's not what the argument is.

*He's been filmed making Nazi salutes, he argues in favour of the unification of Europe into an empire exclusively for the "white race", chanted "Hail Trump, hail our people, hail victory!" (that'd be "Heil Trump, heil unser Volk, Sieg Heil!" in German, in case someone has absolutely no eye for symbolism), and gave a non-committal answer when asked by a journalist whether he was willing to condemn the Ku Klux Klan and Adolf Hitler. If it walks like a Nazi, looks like a Nazi, and Heils like a Nazi...

If some group, hypothetically, has insane political agendas, that IS their right. If they wanted to rally and support ending women's suffrage, forced castration of anyone over 40, and legalizing meth, more power to them. I'll laugh at them, counter their arguments, and make sure everyone knows they are crazy. That's the extent of my actions unless they get physically violent.

As for BLM, I support some of their groups and rallies, while I condemn other rallies they do. They aren't some logically organized hierarchy. While I do think police are sometimes a little too quick on the gun/stick time, I do feel that BLM, in general has some misleading math on this. I also feel that many BLM supporters are WAY too quick to condemn police after a shooting when it is obvious as all heck the suspect was guilty. Protesting Tamir Rice shooting? Good. Protesting Quanice Hayes shooting? WTF???

Then call him a Nazi, this isn’t really that hard to grasp, the alt right is made up of a very diverse group of far right people, some of which are nazis, others are nationalists etc.

When you label everyone on the far right as nazis or alt right you LEGITIMISE them, they get to use the same stupid “victim” tactics that the far left use.

Are they two distinctly different things, no, they have overlap for the THIRD time... But there are key differences between them, possibly the main one being the lack of a clearly defined ideology, they are a fractured bunch with varied extremes they are willing to go to, plus it’s really really hard to tell who is and who isn’t when you have the left wing media claiming that everyone from ben Shapiro (a Jewish person) to Alex jones is alt right and thus... a Nazi, it defies logic, when you claim everyone is a Nazi. Nobody is a Nazi, use the correct terminology or you will continue to muddy the waters, unless that exactly what the intended outcome is of course

 Formosa wrote:
The far Left marches happily under the banners of marxism and dont do a thing to distance themselves from them, any distinction is academic at best, materially both of them with to institute communism, they got Marxist ideal, ergo the far left are marxists.....


See how this absolutely helps no one, see how its an utterly facile statement with no substance that can so easily thrown back at you, come on man, at least leave a meaningful comment that contributes to the discussion like Yeoldsaltpotato, Vaktahi and greatbigtree has, in fact I found Vaktahis response quite useful as it showed that there are other sides to these movements.

... There is nothing bad about communists being marxist. Something or someone being "Marxist" just means that they subscribe to the model of analysis that Marx famously pioneered. Class-based, historical materialism, economic systems, etc etc. Maybe there are, like, Christian communists or anarchists or something who approach it all from a strictly moral perspective but you'll generally be hard pressed to find leftism and particularly communism that isn't somehow based in or makes use of marxist theory. You use it to mean "Insanely Evil" so that's why it sounds so stupid when you replace words in my arguments. Your understanding and use of the term "marxist" is wrong and everything you say based on it is wrong.

 Formosa wrote:
. Nobody is a Nazi

With the exception, you know, of Nazis. You might insist they be called Neo nazis, but frankly some of them learned at the knee of the real McCoy.

I'm not sure if you're splitting hairs or my experiences have been that much different then yours, but around here the overlap is the rule rather than the exception. They're quite open about it.

This conversation reminds me of a lawsuit from the 90's. A guy sued for libel after a newspaper called him a White Supremacist. Turns out he was actually a White Separatist. He actually one that one.