US & NA Politics Thread

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**Vaktathi**

Disciple of Fate wrote:
Looks like the domino got glued to the floor, NAFTA 2.0 fails, Canada doesn't bend the knee

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45375178

Talks between the US and Canada about amending the North American Free Trade Agreement (Nafta) have ended for the week with no deal in sight.

US officials said they would meet their Canadian counterparts again next week in an effort to reach agreement.

For now, the US plans to move forward with a deal with Mexico on terms reached earlier in the week.

It's not clear what this means for the trilateral agreement, which governs more than $1tr (£770bn) in trade.

The White House had faced a Friday deadline to provide Congress with the necessary 90 days' notice that it intended to enter into a new trade agreement and still have the new Nafta deal to be signed by 1 December, the day Mexico's new left-wing president takes office.

"Today the president notified the Congress of his intent to sign a trade agreement with Mexico - and Canada, if it is willing - 90 days from now," US Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer said in a statement.

He said talks with Canada this week had been "constructive".

"Our officials are continuing to work toward agreement. The USTR team will meet with Minister Freeland and her colleagues Wednesday of next week."

Issues that have led to discord between the neighbouring countries include Canadian protection of its dairy farming industry, dispute-handling mechanisms and patent protections for medicines.

Dairy in particular appeared to be a stumbling block in the negotiations on Friday, with US officials saying Canada had made no concessions on agriculture and Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau saying he was standing firm on the issue.

Lets watch the art of the deal on how to throw a hissy fit and try to destroy NAFTA 1.0 now.

Trump's efforts are increasingly looking like the Brexit negotiations...self defeating and without goals or a plan.

Also, Ford cancels Focus crossover models due to Tariffs

**d-usa**

Also looks like a day after freezing federal pay, he will look at what federal pay is actually like.

I’m gonna enjoy my 2.6% next year, so at least I got mine.

**Easy E**

d-usa wrote:
Also looks like a day after freezing federal pay, he will look at what federal pay is actually like.

I’m gonn enjoy my 2.6% next year, so at least I got mine.

Quick! Pull the ladder up behind you!

**Disciple of Fate**

Vaktathi wrote:
Trump's efforts are increasingly looking like the Brexit negotiations...self defeating and without goals or a plan.

Also, Ford cancels Focus crossover models due to Tariffs

This is what happens when people who would fail econ 101 try to enforce their reality on others. Its only going to get harder from here on out. Sadly the incompetence also has a destructive streak that hits us all. It would be funny if it wasn't so damn stupid.

**Asherian Command**

Welcome to stupid land where the idiots rule the country and don't understand economies and global politics!

**TheAuldGrump**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:

I'm just saying the word has been perverted to mean something else. I would prefer the term Christian extremists for the way it is being used - that is not what an Evangelical is. Like - the term Protestant and Evangelical seem pretty much synonymous to me.

A number of pages back I posted an article written by a former professor of mine explaining all this in great detail. . . the 2018 version of evangelicalism is basically centered around whiteness, it IS an extreme viewpoint. It is less a perversion and more of an evolution.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheAuldGrump wrote:
The question is who gets to decide this?

Jeb and Jr. Bush both wanted Wicca to be considered a 'non-religion'.

And Wicca ain't exactly bloodthirsty. Kinda the opposite, ya know?

I do not want right wing religious yahoos deciding that my wife's religion isn't a religion.

Heck, I would have an easier time saying that my religion isn't a religion, and more a list of questions about religion. (With the one in big print being 'WHY?')

But then the likes of Rvd. Phelps say that Unitarians are going to Hell anyway. (And as a bonus - the Westboro yahoos don't pester Unitarian funerals! A win!)

The Auld Grump

I should think the solution would be "easy" . . . you take the time to craft laws such that say, live sacrifices are illegal no matter the situation. In many ways, the Satanic Temple's view on things seems quite apt: "your religious freedom is free until it infringes on mine"

But it has been regularly upheld in courts that a "public accommodation" must follow the law. Meaning that bakeries cannot discriminate its customer base based on their categories or the baker's beliefs.

That might be where it would begin, but I doubt very much that is where it would end.

And, in all honesty?

I couldn't care less about live sacrifices - be they sheep, chickens, goats or cows.

Outlawing it shows little more than an unwillingness to accept that there are religions where this is an integral part of the whole.

Santaria being a prime example - and conveniently mostly dark skinned practitioners.

Human sacrifice is a whole different kettle of fish - but Santaria kills fewer chickens than Purdue on a daily basis.

The Auld Grump

**BaronIveagh**

d-usa wrote:
Also looks like a day after freezing federal pay, he will look at what federal pay is actually like.

I’m gonn enjoy my 2.6% next year, so at least I got mine.

Um... about that, d-usa.... this is for the budget that starts in September. The same one that your 2.6 appears on? Guess what?

Mine was supposed to start the same time (I'm assuming) and today they let us know that all those are being rolled back unless Congress acts.

**d-usa**

Military pay for the win.

**Xenomancers**

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
I'm just saying the word has been perverted to mean something else. I would prefer the term Christian extremists for the way it is being used - that is not what an Evangelical is. Like - the term Protestant and Evangelical seem pretty much synonymous to me.

You come from a heavily evangelical area then I assume?

It's a relatively small and very much American offshoot of Christianity. The bible being inerrant, grace alone as salvation, there's quite a number of beliefs that are significantly divergent from other sects. Without going into the worse aspects that have cropped up in recent decades politically, it's not just being a protestant. Where I am the only evangelical churches in the area are relatively new, and I've got a pretty wide variety other sects that are significantly different doctrine wise. I've rarely come into conflict with them as religion is a very private thing up here. If they aren't family or don't go to the same church people probably don't know squat about your religious beliefs.

Then I started running into evangelicals. EVERYTHING was Jesus. Community? Jesus. Music? Jesus. Kids Shows? Jesus. Toast? Collectable Jesus. And everyone knows just how much everyone loves Jesus. They've got their own self contained eco system of evangelical culture that is often projected as an American mono culture, but it really isn't. Now, perhaps you're not the mega church goer with a library of christian music, there are ends of evangelicals who have some level of chill and the ability to consume popular culture without imploding, but when it comes to 'culture wars' types who start political battles, those folks have a way of life blatantly alien to me and most anyone outside of the evangelical bubble and apparently the need to inflict it on others.

Yeah it's pretty alien to me too. I just think Evangelical is a misnomer - or at least the words meaning has changed a lot from what it used to mean. I have no problem calling these people extremist Christians. Like - if you believe intelligent design should be taught in schools along side Evolution in 7th grade biology - you are just an extremist. I could be totally wrong here it just feels like the term has evolved into what people are using it for now - because saying extremist Christian gets more of a negative reaction. I prefer it that way - because I don't want people to think it's okay to push their beliefs on others.

**d-usa**

The term Evangelical has been hijacked and misused to describe a Christian voting block with less mainstream ideas about religion and politics. But I think it’s important to acknowledge that this was done by the Evangelicals to describe themselves, and not by outsiders trying to label them.

**Ensis Ferrae**

TheAuldGrump wrote:
That might be where it would begin, but I doubt very much that is where it would end.

And, in all honesty?

I couldn't care less about live sacrifices - be they sheep, chickens, goats or cows.

Outlawing it shows little more than an unwillingness to accept that there are religions where this is an integral part of the whole.

Santaria being a prime example - and conveniently mostly dark skinned practitioners.

Human sacrifice is a whole different kettle of fish - but Santaria kills fewer chickens than Purdue on a daily basis.

The Auld Grump

Ya know, I agree with what you're saying here. . . But I think part of me is arguing from the standpoint that the majority of US lawmakers claim to follow the same religion, and that will undoubtedly affect any legislation done to establish religious "boundaries".

I am with you in saying that animal sacrifices don't bother me, provided they are done by actual priests of that religion (as most religions I have studied had some form of official sacrificing ceremony where random person wasn't off killing his chickens himself, he'd bring them to the appropriate temple for sacrifice by the priesthood). . . I think the problem, from a legal standpoint with animal sacrifice is that, for instance, here where I live there's a standing warning by local sherriff's to cat owners to not let their cats outside at all, there is a serial cat killer going around right now. I think any hypothetical legislation would have to cover this type of situation, to prevent this serial killer from hiding behind "ohh, I was just doing this for my religion" when its very clearly not religious, but rather an individual with all the hallmarks of someone ready to graduate to human victims.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:

Yeah it's pretty alien to me too. I just think Evangelical is a misnomer - or at least the words meaning has changed a lot from what it used to mean. I have no problem calling these people extremist Christians. Like - if you believe intelligent design should be taught in schools along side Evolution in 7th grade biology - you are just an extremist. I could be totally wrong here it just feels like the term has evolved into what people are using it for now - because saying extremist Christian gets more of a negative reaction. I prefer it that way - because I don't want people to think it's okay to push their beliefs on others.

Dug it back up since it seems to be relevant, maybe you missed it the first time I posted, certainly some people may find it relevant to this line of discussion:

https://www.christiancentury.org/article/critical-essay/american-evangelicalism-and-politics-whiteness

**d-usa**

It’s just amazing that somehow a group that is part of the vast majority and the group that realistically has been in power for hundreds of years with no signs of losing power has been able to convince themselves that they are part of a persecuted minority.

**Ustrello**

d-usa wrote:
It’s just amazing that somehow a group that is part of the vast majority and the group that realistically has been in power for hundreds of years with no signs of losing power has been able to convince themselves that they are part of a persecuted minority.

Yeah the entire war on Christmas thing that they tout is super ridiculous

**feeder**

d-usa wrote:
It’s just amazing that somehow a group that is part of the vast majority and the group that realistically has been in power for hundreds of years with no signs of losing power has been able to convince themselves that they are part of a persecuted minority.

They base a huge part of their lives around something to which they have no evidence. It's not a stretch to think they could base a small part of their lives around something to which there is evidence to the contrary.

**d-usa**

Ustrello wrote:
d-usa wrote:
It’s just amazing that somehow a group that is part of the vast majority and the group that realistically has been in power for hundreds of years with no signs of losing power has been able to convince themselves that they are part of a persecuted minority.

Yeah the entire war on Christmas thing that they tout is super ridiculous

I’m anxiously awaiting this years anti-Jesus holiday cup from Starbucks.

**Ensis Ferrae**

d-usa wrote:

I’m anxiously awaiting this years anti-Jesus holiday cup from Starbucks.

It will be funny as hell if there's an honest to goodness nativity scene on the cup. . . somehow, you KNOW it'd be seen as "too jewish" or something

I mean, what was last years cup?? didnt it feature an arm that had grounds for copyright infringement with the "Where's Waldo" people??

**NinthMusketeer**

Being easily offended is bad to the culture of Republicans, they hate anti-PC to the point of being as easily offended by the slightest whif of PC as the worst of PC culture itself. Then they are easily offended by outside issues, such as the above mentioned Christmas cup.

**LordofHats**

Ustrello wrote:
d-usa wrote:
It’s just amazing that somehow a group that is part of the vast majority and the group that realistically has been in power for hundreds of years with no signs of losing power has been able to convince themselves that they are part of a persecuted minority.

Yeah the entire war on Christmas thing that they tout is super ridiculous

I don't know what you're talking about. I said Merry Christmas to some random cashier and they smiled and said "you too" why can't you understand my persecution

**Ustrello**

LordofHats wrote:
Ustrello wrote:
d-usa wrote:
It’s just amazing that somehow a group that is part of the vast majority and the group that realistically has been in power for hundreds of years with no signs of losing power has been able to convince themselves that they are part of a persecuted minority.

Yeah the entire war on Christmas thing that they tout is super ridiculous

I don't know what you're talking about. I said Merry Christmas to some random cashier and they smiled and said "you too" why can't you understand my persecution

The year is 2032, America has been taken over by Evangelicals. Every morning I have to pray to white Jesus and thank him for America. I go to Black Rifle Coffee to get my mandatory veteran supporting cup of black coffee in July, I pay the cashier but forget to say Merry Christmas. All of a sudden black helicopters swarm the building and I am arrested for persecuting white Christians and am sent to a reeducation camp run by vice president for life Pence to learn how Christians are so persecuted in America.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Ustrello wrote:
The year is 2032, America has been taken over by Evangelicals. Every morning I have to pray to white Jesus and thank him for America. I go to Black Rifle Coffee to get my mandatory veteran supporting cup of black coffee in July, I pay the cashier but forget to say Merry Christmas. All of a sudden black helicopters swarm the building and I am arrested for persecuting white Christians and am sent to a reeducation camp run by vice president for life Pence to learn how Christians are so persecuted in America.

If it's July. . . you're not getting arrested/black bagged for saying merry christmas . . . its because you didnt buy enough of the proscribed fireworks for "International Freedom Day"

**Xenomancers**

d-usa wrote:
It’s just amazing that somehow a group that is part of the vast majority and the group that realistically has been in power for hundreds of years with no signs of losing power has been able to convince themselves that they are part of a persecuted minority.

Religion is dying. Secularism is on the rise all over the world. It is totally understandable why they would feel that way. Really - science is so close to unlocking the mysteries of the universe and has already come so far as to proving religious theories wrong - they feel threatened. The reality is they are threatened. The threatening needs to stop. We can all get along and we can all prosper - Us vs Them politics needs to die.

I'm not saying that we as a culture should give into religious demands. Science class should always be secular ( I know there are other issues but this is just an example). However - is it really necessary to attack American traditions like Christmas? I love Christmas and I am an atheist!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ustrello wrote:
LordofHats wrote:
Ustrello wrote:
d-usa wrote:
It’s just amazing that somehow a group that is part of the vast majority and the group that realistically has been in power for hundreds of years with no signs of losing power has been able to convince themselves that they are part of a persecuted minority.

Yeah the entire war on Christmas thing that they tout is super ridiculous

I don't know what you're talking about. I said Merry Christmas to some random cashier and they smiled and said "you too" why can't you understand my persecution

The year is 2032, America has been taken over by Evangelicals. Every morning I have to pray to white Jesus and thank him for America. I go to Black Rifle Coffee to get my mandatory veteran supporting cup of black coffee in July, I pay the cashier but forget to say Merry Christmas. All of a sudden black helicopters swarm the building and I am arrested for persecuting white Christians and am sent to a reeducation camp run by vice president for life Pence to learn how Christians are so persecuted in America.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yesyhQkYrQM
The next 10000 years.

**greatbigtree**

Is anyone *really* attacking Christmas, though? I’m agnostic, and I wish people merry Christmas and they wish it back to me, and everyone is being nice to each other.

If, and it has never happened to me, but if someone were to become genuinely offended about my well-wishing they could pound salt up their keister. If they informed me they celebrated a different holiday I would gladly wish them a happy whatever instead. If someone wishes me happy holidays, happy Hanukkah, crazy Kwanza, or an excellent Eid I just return the sentiment. The intent is to be nice, so just be nice back.

Religion is not any less prevalent amongst the people I know. The religious keep on relig-ing and the irreligious keep irrelig-ing.

I just think some people don’t like having it be socially normal to be cool with other people having different beliefs. They like the tribalism. “We’re better than them and one way we show it is saying Merry Christmas.” I have an aunt that posts the same stupid, “I still say Merry Christmas, do you?” gak on her Facebook posts and everyone she knows doesn’t care, because I doubt she knows anyone “fanatical” about a different religion.

I suppose it’s a case of fearing in others what you do yourself. I think she would ban other religions, so assumes “other” religions would do the same to her. It’s just one more step towards *them* taking away her freedom of religion.

I don’t agree with the reasoning, but I bet it’s damned close to the heart of the matter.

**Asherian Command**

greatbigtree wrote:
Is anyone *really* attacking Christmas, though? I’m agnostic, and I wish people merry Christmas and they wish it back to me, and everyone is being nice to each other.

If, and it has never happened to me, but if someone were to become genuinely offended about my well-wishing they could pound salt up their keister. If they informed me they celebrated a different holiday I would gladly wish them a happy whatever instead. If someone wishes me happy holidays, happy Hanukkah, crazy Kwanza, or an excellent Eid I just return the sentiment. The intent is to be nice, so just be nice back.

Religion is not any less prevalent amongst the people I know. The religious keep on relig-ing and the irreligious keep irrelig-ing.

I just think some people don’t like having it be socially normal to be cool with other people having different beliefs. They like the tribalism. “We’re better than them and one way we show it is saying Merry Christmas.” I have an aunt that posts the same stupid, “I still say Merry Christmas, do you?” gak on her Facebook posts and everyone she knows doesn’t care, because I doubt she knows anyone “fanatical” about a different religion.

I suppose it’s a case of fearing in others what you do yourself. I think she would ban other religions, so assumes “other” religions would do the same to her. It’s just one more step towards *them* taking away her freedom of religion.

I don’t agree with the reasoning, but I bet it’s damned close to the heart of the matter.

No. No one attacks christmas the only people who think that are paranoid or suffer perscution or listen to all the political pundits out there about prosecution of the 'white' or 'christian'

Christmas is apart of our culture, I don't see people renaming it for maybe another hundred years so.

**Grey Templar**

greatbigtree wrote:
Is anyone *really* attacking Christmas, though? I’m agnostic, and I wish people merry Christmas and they wish it back to me, and everyone is being nice to each other.

Most definitely, though it probably depends on where you are. People get extremely offended over things like Nativity scenes, on public or private land. Social pressure to use Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas(in the name of not offending anybody who doesn't celebrate Christmas). Using Xmas instead of Christmas. Etc... Its little things like that.

Its not prevalent everywhere, but at the very least its alive and well here in California. Just where I work we've had customers complain when I and my fellow employees have used Merry Christmas. Some of the management also would like to us to stop saying it, but fortunately the senior levels say its fine.

**Kanluwen**

Grey Templar wrote:
greatbigtree wrote:
Is anyone *really* attacking Christmas, though? I’m agnostic, and I wish people merry Christmas and they wish it back to me, and everyone is being nice to each other.

Most definitely, though it probably depends on where you are. People get extremely offended over things like Nativity scenes, on public or private land. Social pressure to use Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas(in the name of not offending anybody who doesn't celebrate Christmas). Using Xmas instead of Christmas. Etc... Its little things like that.

People don't "get offended" over the nativity scenes themselves--it's the fact that it's public money being used for them when we're talking about nativity scenes on public land.

Its not prevalent everywhere, but at the very least its alive and well here in California. Just where I work we've had customers complain when I and my fellow employees have used Merry Christmas. Some of the management also would like to us to stop saying it, but fortunately the senior levels say its fine.

Riiiiiiiiiiiight.

**Grey Templar**

Kanluwen wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
greatbigtree wrote:
Is anyone *really* attacking Christmas, though? I’m agnostic, and I wish people merry Christmas and they wish it back to me, and everyone is being nice to each other.

Most definitely, though it probably depends on where you are. People get extremely offended over things like Nativity scenes, on public or private land. Social pressure to use Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas(in the name of not offending anybody who doesn't celebrate Christmas). Using Xmas instead of Christmas. Etc... Its little things like that.

People don't "get offended" over the nativity scenes themselves--it's the fact that it's public money being used for them when we're talking about nativity scenes on public land.

What about when the extremely common occurrence of a nativity scene put up by private individuals is on public land? Not a dime of taxpayer money, but still objections roll in.

**Kanluwen**

Then it still falls under the same idea:
It's publicly funded land being coopted to make a religious statement.

**Grey Templar**

Kanluwen wrote:
Then it still falls under the same idea:
It's publicly funded land being coopted to make a religious statement.

There is nothing wrong with that, since anybody could do a similar thing. And indeed have done.

If public land is available for the public to make use of it, then there is no issue. If a public park is available for the public to use/rent you can't bar religious organizations from using it. That would be discriminatory.

**Peregrine**

Grey Templar wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Then it still falls under the same idea:
It's publicly funded land being coopted to make a religious statement.

There is nothing wrong with that, since anybody could do a similar thing. And indeed have done.

If public land is available for the public to make use of it, then there is no issue. If a public park is available for the public to use/rent you can't bar religious organizations from using it. That would be discriminatory.

It is ok if the space is genuinely up for rent to anyone and any message/display. However, often in these cases when anyone but Christians and their nativity scenes wants to use the space they aren't allowed to do it (or have to pay higher rates, etc). Whatever the law says they're de facto endorsement and priviliging of Christianity. IIRC in at least one of the widely publicized cases the town decided to shut down displays entirely rather than allow a non-Christian display to have their court-ordered space, a pretty clear admission of what was going on.

**Kilkrazy**

Trump's approval rating hits a new low in latest ABC-Washington Post poll