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Remakes can easily be classics. Scarface, the Fly, The Thing, and even the new Planet of the Apes films.

It's pretty sad that your list omits perhaps the only actual classic among those remakes: Star Wars, as a remake of the Hidden Fortress.

Note that SW is a substantial rework at the same time, moving to a galaxy far, far away and showcasing (then) groundbreaking FX

None of the others are particularly notable as far as I can recall.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Unless a remake is substantially better (and somehow different) than the original, it can't be a "classic". That's why Ghostbusters, Ocean's 8 and Dredd can't be classics - you'd watch the original, Ocean's 11 (either version), or the Raid instead.

I can most certainly treat both The Raid and Dredd as classics because they are not interchangeable even though they share huge parts of the general plot. I can do that, because filmmaking art is sooo much more than a raw plot idea. Heck, I can even treat all of the following: La Jetée, Brasil and 12 monkeys as classics simultaneously, despite the latter being a mashup of those former two.

I must admit, that throughout the whole thread I find your POV on cinematography rather puzzling (not in any way "wrong" as this is a subjective matter, but really incomprehensible for me personally.) The only thing I agree with is "female characters for the sake of being female" - one of the most annoying instances of that practice lately was genderswap of Hogarth in Jessica Jones, because they only swapped the gender and nothing else which results in completely unbelievable character. I think that genderswap of Starbucks in Battlestar remake is the perfect example of how such things should be done.

John Carpenter's The Thing is definitely more than notable.

@nou - I'm no expert on film, so my definition of "classic" may not align with others, and people may well disagree. In my case, if I want to watch a hard-boiled cop clear a druglord's building, I strongly prefer The Raid over Dredd.

I believe that a lot of what's been posited will not stand the test of time, and I don't much like unoriginal remakes over the original. Movies are about imagination, and should show something new and different, because they can.

Incredibles 2 will wait for the library, because I'm not going to pay money to watch what is reportedly an uninspired genderflip remake of Incredibles 1. That's really disappointing when we consider what TS2 and TS3 had to say vis TS1.

 Manchu wrote:
John Carpenter's The Thing is definitely more than notable.

So was the prequal - loved how they made sure so much of the little details from the original devestated Norwegian outpost were shown to hpapen in the new film -

Got bored with the Raid and found Dredd far superior - but that might be because I a JD fan and thus that film resonated strongly with me - whereas the Raid was just meh

I will lso probably give Incredibles 2 a miss, barring my wife wanting to see it. Trailers make me think, after fourteen years why bother.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
WRT Sucker Punch, there are a number of explainers (spoilers!) out there. MovieBob covers it pretty well, and is a good breakdown between a first and second viewing of the movie.

If you have to read a review or watch a video to understand a movie, it is because the movie had bad storytelling. Snyder famously bungled this movie, turning what could have been a dark and thrilling story in to the best feature length music video you have ever seen. He failed to convey any depth to the world because he needed the next song on the soundtrack to start to keep people awake.

Some classics people might have missed.

Kung Pow - Already a classic in its own right.
Kubo and the Two Strings - Fantastic movie. Great visuals and good music.
Walk Hard - I keep suggesting this to people and they keep loving it
The Cornetto Trilogy - Shaun of the Dead, Hot Fuzz, The Worlds End.
The Prestige - Amazing film. All of the actors go above and beyond
Tucker and Dale vs Evil - If you havent seen this and you like comedy, this is for you

Kubo is an absolutely beautiful film and you appreciate it even more once you watch the "making of" videos and see the rigs they constructed for the large monsters.


And Tucker and Dale is an amazing film which perfectly subverts the slasher-in-the-woods genre.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
WRT Sucker Punch, there are a number of explainers (spoilers!) out there. MovieBob covers it pretty well, and is a good breakdown between a first and second viewing of the movie.

If you have to read a review or watch a video to understand a movie, it is because the movie had bad storytelling. Snyder famously bungled this movie, turning what could have been a dark and thrilling story in to the best feature length music video you have ever seen. He failed to convey any depth to the world because he needed the next song on the soundtrack to start to keep people awake.

Some classics people might have missed.

Kung Pow - Already a classic in its own right.
Kubo and the Two Strings - Fantastic movie. Great visuals and good music.
Walk Hard - I keep suggesting this to people and they keep loving it
The Cornetto Trilogy - Shaun of the Dead, Hot Fuzz, The Worlds End.
The Prestige - Amazing film. All of the actors go above and beyond
Tucker and Dale vs Evil - If you havent seen this and you like comedy, this is for you

Prestige and Cornetto Trilogy are already listed on the first page, but I'm glad that somebody else recognizes those as classics But sadly Cornetto Trilogy is more of a diptych - The Worlds End just doesn't cut it for me... But Prestige, oh man - this is the best film about bipolar disorder and obsessive compulsive personality dissorder I've ever seen (don't confuse it with meme-generating OCD, OCPD is an entirely different beast) and one of a kind masterpiece. It always fascinated me why it wasn't/isn't more popular.

@ JohnHwangDD - your pursuit after originality was quite clear and concise (at first to rather elitist extent), but then you focused on defending Sucker Punch, which is a terrible and not really that original movie by any and all metrics I can apply to it (pretty much any trope in Sucker Punch can be found elsewhere). But please, don't take it as a personal attack - I'm a person that tries to build a mental model of any person I discuss with and you just slip my grasp...

Tucker and Dale is definitely a beyond fantastic slasher movie. It’s got everything. Even Alan Tudyk!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
It's pretty sad that your list omits perhaps the only actual classic among those remakes: Star Wars, as a remake of the Hidden Fortress.

Note that SW is a substantial rework at the same time, moving to a galaxy far, far away and showcasing (then) groundbreaking FX

None of the others are particularly notable as far as I can recall.

"___________ in space" is not a remake. Star Wars took inspiration from many sources, too. That's the difference between research and pla--er, remake.

nou wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
WRT Sucker Punch, there are a number of explainers (spoilers!) out there. MovieBob covers it pretty well, and is a good breakdown between a first and second viewing of the movie.

If you have to read a review or watch a video to understand a movie, it is because the movie had bad storytelling. Snyder famously bungled this movie, turning what could have been a dark and thrilling story in to the best feature length music video you have ever seen. He failed to convey any depth to the world because he needed the next song on the soundtrack to start to keep people awake.

Some classics people might have missed.

Kung Pow - Already a classic in its own right.
Kubo and the Two Strings - Fantastic movie. Great visuals and good music.
Walk Hard - I keep suggesting this to people and they keep loving it
The Cornetto Trilogy - Shaun of the Dead, Hot Fuzz, The Worlds End.
The Prestige - Amazing film. All of the actors go above and beyond
Tucker and Dale vs Evil - If you havent seen this and you like comedy, this is for you

Prestige and Cornetto Trilogy are already listed on the first page, but I'm glad that somebody else recognizes those as classics But sadly Cornetto Trilogy is more of a diptych - The Worlds End just doesn't cut it for me... But Prestige, oh man - this is the best film about bipolar disorder and obsessive compulsive personality dissorder I've ever seen (don't confuse it with meme-generating OCD, OCPD is an entirely different beast) and one of a kind masterpiece. It always fascinated me why it wasn't/isn't more popular.

@ JohnHwangDD - your pursuit after originality was quite clear and concise (at first to rather elitist extent), but then you focused on defending Sucker Punch, which is a terrible and not really that original movie by any and all metrics I can apply to it (pretty much any trope in Sucker Punch can be found elsewhere). But please, don't take it as a personal attack - I'm a person that tries to build a mental model of any person I discuss with and you just slip my grasp...

Its all Subjective

re The Prestige and Sucker Punch for instance I found the former dull and mundane with little characterisation (standard for Nolan - especially female ones - in fact he seldom bothers with them at all in his films) and in contrast sucker punch had everything it didn't - deeper meaning, interesting characters, imagery and imagination.

different strokes and all that

 Mr Morden wrote:

nou wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
WRT Sucker Punch, there are a number of explainers (spoilers!) out there. MovieBob covers it pretty well, and is a good breakdown between a first and second viewing of the movie.

If you have to read a review or watch a video to understand a movie, it is because the movie had bad storytelling. Snyder famously bungled this movie, turning what could have been a dark and thrilling story in to the best feature length music video you have ever seen. He failed to convey any depth to the world because he needed the next song on the soundtrack to start to keep people awake.

Some classics people might have missed.

Kung Pow - Already a classic in its own right.
Kubo and the Two Strings - Fantastic movie. Great visuals and good music.
Walk Hard - I keep suggesting this to people and they keep loving it
The Cornetto Trilogy - Shaun of the Dead, Hot Fuzz, The Worlds End.
The Prestige - Amazing film. All of the actors go above and beyond
Tucker and Dale vs Evil - If you havent seen this and you like comedy, this is for you

Prestige and Cornetto Trilogy are already listed on the first page, but I'm glad that somebody else recognizes those as classics But sadly Cornetto Trilogy is more of a diptych - The Worlds End just doesn't cut it for me... But Prestige, oh man - this is the best film about bipolar disorder and obsessive compulsive personality dissorder I've ever seen (don't confuse it with meme-generating OCD, OCPD is an entirely different beast) and one of a kind masterpiece. It always fascinated me why it wasn't/isn't more popular.

@ JohnHwangDD - your pursuit after originality was quite clear and concise (at first to rather elitist extent), but then you focused on defending Sucker Punch, which is a terrible and not really that original movie by any and all metrics I can apply to it (pretty much any trope in Sucker Punch can be found elsewhere). But please, don't take it as a personal attack - I'm a person that tries to build a mental model of any person I discuss with and you just slip my grasp...

Its all Subjective

re The Prestige and Sucker Punch for instance I found the former dull and mundane with little characterisation (standard for Nolan - especially female ones - in fact he seldom bothers with them at all in his films) and in contrast sucker punch had everything it didn't - deeper meaning, interesting characters, imagery and imagination.

different strokes and all that

Could you please elaborate on shallow vs deeper meaning of Prestige vs Sucker Punch? I'm genuinely interested on how those two films can have so flipped reception - the question I cannot answer for myself for obvious reasons. And while we are at it, maybe you can also shed some light on why Nolan seems to have so many anti-fans in the West (less so here in Poland)? I'm genuinely wondering, as I find his characters very precisely constructed in almost all instances and whole films tuned like clockwork... And I remember that those anti-fans were present from the very beginning, right after "Memento".

I like to think that when Marvel fever finally dies down the Guardians of the Galaxy movies will be far enough removed from the cape fare that they'll enjoy some lasting appreciation. Hopefully the stick the landing with movie 3 and depart gracefully and Disney doesn't ruin the whole thing with endless sequels.

Speaking of... is it safe to appreciate Pirates of the Caribbean again? I really did like that first one.

I also hope future audiences rediscover Moon.

I liked the various layers of reality in Sucker Punch, the darker meaning behind the "Adventures" and the twist at the end.

Prestige - I found the characters dull, wooden and without humanity - Something I have found in every one of his films, he doesn't seem to care about anyone in them - so why should I. It makes it very hard for me to take any attempt at a plot seriously.

I have found the opposite - Christopher Nolan fans abound and found in the past that some have the most annoying habit of saying that if you don't like his films you don't understand them, I find many of his film rely on special effects and image to hide the lack of substance - Inception IMO was truely awful for this.

Women are seldom of importance in his films and if they are, they are sketched out even less than the male ones - see especially Inception and Batman

 Mr Morden wrote:
I liked the various layers of reality in Sucker Punch, the darker meaning behind the "Adventures" and the twist at the end.

Prestige - I found the characters dull, wooden and without humanity - Something I have found in every one of his films, he doesn't seem to care about anyone in them - so why should I. It makes it very hard for me to take any attempt at a plot seriously.

I have found the opposite - Christopher Nolan fans abound and found in the past that some have the most annoying habit of saying that if you don't like his films you don't understand them, I find many of his film rely on special effects and image to hide the lack of substance - Inception IMO was truely awful for this.

Women are seldom of importance in his films and if they are, they are sketched out even less than the male ones - see especially Inception and Batman

Thank you for your answer. That fits nicely with what I roughly predicted I might read in your answer and sorts a few puzzles for me.

I can think of two; Drive and Baby Driver.

Drive starring Mark Dacascos and Brittany Murphy? While it is pretty great, I don't know if I would call it a classic.




(Sweet. The whole film is on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDak7ubSLcs )

Does Donnie Brasco make the cut?

nou wrote:
@ JohnHwangDD - your pursuit after originality was quite clear and concise (at first to rather elitist extent), but then you focused on defending Sucker Punch, which is a terrible and not really that original movie by any and all metrics I can apply to it (pretty much any trope in Sucker Punch can be found elsewhere). But please, don't take it as a personal attack - I'm a person that tries to build a mental model of any person I discuss with and you just slip my grasp...

Sucker Punch is a story that exists on at least 3 layers of "reality" / "fantasy", and it's deliberately using and deconstructing a number of tropes and pop references - to me, that's very original. It just has an awful lot going on, moves very fast, with little setup - the opposite of what people would want for the sort of popcorn movie that people would have expected. To me, SP is the biggest budget arthouse film ever made, and the movie needed a fair bit of additional exposition and transition to clarify things for the more casual viewer vs the repeat viewer. I get the same sort of joy watching SP as I do watching the Usual Suspects.

Sorry if I'm confusing you. I apologize for that.

____

WRT Nolan, I get what he's doing, but I'm not a huge fan of his work, although I understand why people like his work. Personally, I really disliked his Batman movie, simply because the McGuffin couldn't possibly work the way that it was depicted in the film. That took me completely out of the film. A microwave device that can instantly boil water in underground pipes shielded by dozens of feet of earth, and inches of concrete or steel would have killed everybody within immediate line of sight of the thing. It would have been better if it were clearly a neutron bomb designed to kill the population while leaving most of the buildings standing. Or better, yet again? A bog standard Hydrogen Bomb.

The first Batman movie was a bit more outlandish (or "comicbook-ey") in many respects, more mystical ninja mumbo jumbo and drug altered perception, a different feeling Gotham that had the whole elevated train mass transit thing and the Narrows district and overall much more confined and Blade Runner-ey feel, etc.

Both Bane and the Joker's means were relatively conventional next to those employed by Crow or Ras Al Gul, and Bane basically does just go for the nuke, and the city is very clearly just filmed mostly around Chicago

See, i really dislike the nolan batman movies because christian bale is the worst batman on film.

He is the BIGGEST idiot. Kills people in every movie and has a wavering conviction. Then, while yelling "no guns" shoots guns and rockets all over the place killing more people.

Granted. All the other live action batmen beside west also kill.

But none of the others are massive idiots. I dont think any nolan batman film we be remembered as a classic. I think ledgers performance will be remembered as great. But bale and every other actor will be 10p% forgotten the moment we get a good comic acurate batman movie. Just one. Not even great. Just good.

TBH, I really liked Burton's Batman - Keaton "got" the inherent insanity of the character.

 Lance845 wrote:
See, i really dislike the nolan batman movies because christian bale is the worst batman on film.

To be fair however, he's actually a fantastic Bruce Wayne.

Terrible Batman, but I cannot picture a better Bruce...

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
See, i really dislike the nolan batman movies because christian bale is the worst batman on film.

To be fair however, he's actually a fantastic Bruce Wayne.

Terrible Batman, but I cannot picture a better Bruce...

Great. Christian bale is really good at playing the least interesting moments of batmans life. I always pick up batman stories so i can watch bruce wayne just hanging out with models and pretending to be a rich kid.

We could get an entire batman movie with no bruce wayne act and it would be fine. Most batman comics dont have any wayne in them at all. Just give me a long holloween or a court of owls or some other murder mystery.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gotham by gaslight is the best batman on film. Hes a good detective. He doesnt drink. He doesnt kill. He doesnt choose to leave people to die. He doesnt talk gak to the criminals or exchange quips. He breaks arms and legs with brutal effecient fighting.

A Batman film without Bruce would be god awful. It would be nothing but action scenes and gruff one liners.

Also, an accurate Batman movie would be next to impossible to pull off realistically. The one reason Batman does not kill in the comics is plot armor. Some of the things he has done, people would not walk away from that. You definitely wouldn't see them standing up to get handcuffed and taken away. There would be blood, cries for help, and ambulances galore.

The way he drops people over the edge of buildings with their feet tied up? Yeah, at best you are getting a dislocated hip or knee. At worst, he ded. Batarang to the chest? Hope you like broken sternums and perforated lungs! Doctors sure don't! After he maims these guys, he just walks off and leaves them. Hoping they will be okay.

Non-killing Batman only works in the comics, cartoons, and whimsical shows with Adam West.

 Dreadwinter wrote:
A Batman film without Bruce would be god awful. It would be nothing but action scenes and gruff one liners.

Also, an accurate Batman movie would be next to impossible to pull off realistically. The one reason Batman does not kill in the comics is plot armor. Some of the things he has done, people would not walk away from that. You definitely wouldn't see them standing up to get handcuffed and taken away. There would be blood, cries for help, and ambulances galore.

The way he drops people over the edge of buildings with their feet tied up? Yeah, at best you are getting a dislocated hip or knee. At worst, he ded. Batarang to the chest? Hope you like broken sternums and perforated lungs! Doctors sure don't! After he maims these guys, he just walks off and leaves them. Hoping they will be okay.

Non-killing Batman only works in the comics, cartoons, and whimsical shows with Adam West.

Disagree entirely.

1) Batman is a detective. Murder on the Orient Express was not all one liners and action scenes. A Batman movie should be a detective movie. Batman also does no gruff one liners. His enemies should be talking gak to him, and he should be terrifyingly silent and methodical.

2) Most Batman movies thus far have focused on the villains. You can use them to drive most of the plot, and you should. Batman is a reactionary force. The meat and potatoes of the film should be the villians, their psychosis, and how that effects their world view and their drives. Even when it's a murder mystery like Gotham by Gaslight you follow Batman as he uncovers layer by layer the villains thought process and motivations.

3) Batman doesn't kill because he makes the conscious choice to not kill. Again, Gotham by Gaslight does it really well. Batman the Animated series did it really well. There should be blood. There should be cries for help. Batman should be breaking bones and putting people in hospitals. But there is a big difference between a cracked femur and death.

Non killing batman would work 100% fine in the movies just like non-killing Spiderman. The vulture comes at him with murderous intent. The robbers use guns to hurt him. And he pulls his punches and tries to debilitate. Just write the movie to function like the comic. I don't need it to emulate real life. I just need to believe the world they are showing me. It's a comic book world where a man in a bat costume fights a guy in a refrigerator suit with a glass jar on his head. Not being a killer is the least crazy, most believable part of that world.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Drive starring Mark Dacascos and Brittany Murphy? While it is pretty great, I don't know if I would call it a classic.




(Sweet. The whole film is on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDak7ubSLcs )

I was thinking of this one

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
See, i really dislike the nolan batman movies because christian bale is the worst batman on film.

To be fair however, he's actually a fantastic Bruce Wayne.

Terrible Batman, but I cannot picture a better Bruce...

Keaton is far superior - he has the slightly broken fragile shell down to tee.

Bale is ok at best - same as his Batman, but it lacks the finesse and insight that Keaton brought.

Remember "Batman does not live in Bruce Wayne basement, Bruce Wayne lives in Batman's Attic" - Lego Batman - such a great film.

He breaks arms and legs with brutal efficient fighting.

Although of course people could actually die form that kind of shock and trauma.

Probably should have been a definition in the OP about modern and not -modern