Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

phydaux wrote:
GW has been actively trying to live down the debacle that was 3rd ed. for neatly 20 years now. Each edition they have nerfed elite assault armies a little more and a little more, to the point where in 8th ed elite assault armies are completely unviable.

3rd had two features that made assault very powerful - Charging out of transports after they had moved, and units getting locked in close combat once they had been assaulted. Both of these features are absent in 8th ed.

I propose that we allow infantry units to debark from transports after they have moved, and that we left them EITHER Shoot OR Charge when they have done so. This will provide some benefit to elite assault armies, but not an overwhelming one. Gunlines will still have Overwatch, Heroic Intervention, and Fall Back as options to stop elite assault units from rolling them up like an old throw rug.

Its because everyone at GW play Eldar, Tau or Necrons lol

Not sure about eldar or necrons, but obviously none the 8th development team gave a crap about T'au, or it wouldn't be the worst written codex of the cycle

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

phydaux wrote:
GW has been actively trying to live down the debacle that was 3rd ed. for neatly 20 years now. Each edition they have nerfed elite assault armies a little more and a little more, to the point where in 8th ed elite assault armies are completely unviable.

3rd had two features that made assault very powerful - Charging out of transports after they had moved, and units getting locked in close combat once they had been assaulted. Both of these features are absent in 8th ed.

I propose that we allow infantry units to debark from transports after they have moved, and that we left them EITHER Shoot OR Charge when they have done so. This will provide some benefit to elite assault armies, but not an overwhelming one. Gunlines will still have Overwatch, Heroic Intervention, and Fall Back as options to stop elite assault units from rolling them up like an old throw rug.

Its because everyone at GW play Eldar, Tau or Necrons lol

Not sure about eldar or necrons, but obviously none the 8th development team gave a crap about T'au, or it wouldn't be the worst written codex of the cycle

Worse than Grey Knights? I ahve not played them yet but Tau seem to have quite a few powerful units and play styles - they are not the cheese of previous era's Riptide Wing thank god - same As Marines are not Gladius cheese. or Eldar........etc

Karol wrote:

I'm not sure how being super resilient is ignoring the core rules of assault, can you explain a bit further?

Because it makes normal assault units worthless. If the "normal" for an assault unit means 30"+ range on top of crazy stratagems, or being something like Magnus or Tyfus along side 3-4 other flying buddies, then an actual normal assault unit like GK strikes or SW termintors, makes no sense.

But...normal assault units also work.

We have tournament lists with everything from cheap assault units (orks, nids, catachan guard swarm, nurgle daemons, wyches) to super elite assault units (shining spears, custodes, knights gallant, daemon princes, Taloi+Grotesques). Where assault tends to waver is in the midrange, where you don't have the huge returns from shutting off the enemy shooting that you get from the super cheap assault units, and you don't have the huge returns in sheer quantity of murder that the top end assault units put out. Assault units from the 10-30 point range are the rarest, with the only ones turning up in significant numbers being stuff like grotesques and Harlequins.

Once again, because I like to keep the record straight on what the meta tends to actually be in my head, I looked through the list-dump we just saw for the ETC tournament (roughly 250 tournament level lists). The 'meta' list right now is as a previous poster said about 70% shooting 30% assault, with pure 100% shooty armies basically only being Tau and Necrons with the occasional pure imp guard.

I guess one of the main problems is that assault units can't choose their targets the same way a ranged unit can. And GW doesn't account for that in many cases. As you said, their are 2 kinds of good melee units: Cheap/Resilient ones which swarm and tie up the enemy or expensive ones that outright kill anything they connect with. Warp Talons for example are bad, because they are only good at killing marines, but suck at dealing with cheap stuff or bulkier things, so the enemy can easily "outplay" them. Genestealers on the other hand are good, because they can deal with any kind of enemy unit. A lascannon would also suck if it always needed to shoot the closest enemy on the table and Heavy Bolters would be king in the same scenario.

But well, in the end the easiest way to make more units usefull is by reducing their points cost. Specialist melee units need to come with a discount, to make up for the risk of them being a useless pick in many games.

So it seem that for an assault oriented army to work (70-30 shooty-assault is NOT an assault-oriented army) then that army needs BOTH dedicated assault troops as a Troops choice, so as not to get nerfed by the Rule of Three) AND special rules to give the whole army either extra inches on the charge or more attacks on the charge, or BOTH.

Meanwhile all a shooting oriented army needs is to field all their best shooty units. No special rules required.

And yet people will still crow that the game is balanced, and if a Black Templar player can't win, well, it's simply because he's just a bad player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"But well, in the end the easiest way to make more units usefull is by reducing their points cost. Specialist melee units need to come with a discount, to make up for the risk of them being a useless pick in many games."

It simply doesn't matter how cheap you make, say, a vanilla Space Marines Assault Squad. The Space Marines player can still only take three of them.

phydaux wrote:
So it seem that for an assault oriented army to work (70-30 shooty-assault is NOT an assault-oriented army) then that army needs BOTH dedicated assault troops as a Troops choice, so as not to get nerfed by the Rule of Three) AND special rules to give the whole army either extra inches on the charge or more attacks on the charge, or BOTH.

Meanwhile all a shooting oriented army needs is to field all their best shooty units. No special rules required.

And yet people will still crow that the game is balanced, and if a Black Templar player can't win, well, it's simply because he's just a bad player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"But well, in the end the easiest way to make more units usefull is by reducing their points cost. Specialist melee units need to come with a discount, to make up for the risk of them being a useless pick in many games."

It simply doesn't matter how cheap you make, say, a vanilla Space Marines Assault Squad. The Space Marines player can still only take three of them.

I haven't seen any tournament results where Horde armies are winning except at the London GT where the guy slow played the entire tournament. Someone mentioned Dallas but I couldn't find the list nor any other results, granted I just got off work and I am not breaking the internet looking

Personally I miss my Kommandos, Speed Freakz and Kanz. I REALLY Miss my warbikers!

"I haven't seen any tournament results where Horde armies are winning"

Even a No TMC 'Nid list that's nothing but Genestealers, Gargoyles & 'Gaunts? That list has a special place in my heart because a buddy of mine played one in 3rd when I was a new player, and it took me FOREVER to finally beat him.

When I finally did I snapped the head off of one of his Termagaunts and glued it to my Chaplain's shoulder pad as a trophy.

Just like when I was nearly tabeled on Turn Five by another buddy playing Tau. Come his go on Turn Six all I had left was my Chaplain. Same Chaplain. The only units he had in range were two units of Broadsides and a Hammerhead. Yeah, ONLY.

He shot all five rail gun shots at my Chaplain. All five hit, all five wounded, and my Chaplain made ALL FIVE Invulnerable Saves. The energy sump of his Rosarius was glowing white hot, but he as still standing. Alone, but defiant.

One of my buddy's Fire Warriors lost a Bonding Knife after that game.

phydaux wrote:
So it seem that for an assault oriented army to work (70-30 shooty-assault is NOT an assault-oriented army) then that army needs BOTH dedicated assault troops as a Troops choice, so as not to get nerfed by the Rule of Three) AND special rules to give the whole army either extra inches on the charge or more attacks on the charge, or BOTH.

Meanwhile all a shooting oriented army needs is to field all their best shooty units. No special rules required.

And yet people will still crow that the game is balanced, and if a Black Templar player can't win, well, it's simply because he's just a bad player.

Lololol what are all these shooting armies winning without special rules?

Well, exactly what special rules are there that specifically favor shooty armies? The only one I can think of is For The Greater Good. And I'm not one to begrudge Tau anything.

Please give an example of an army-wide special rule that helps shooty armies as much as

Red Thirst
Blood For The Blood God
'Ere We Go

all help assault armies.

And please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that assault is OVER powered. I'm saying that absent army wide special rules to give you a helping hand assault is a no-go strategy.

Why is it only army rules that count? Special rules like markerlights, stratagems, and buffs or powers etc break far more "rules" than things like re-rolling charges. Hell you guys listed "being durable" as breaking the rules of assault, cmon. And BFTBG isn't even an army wide rule. Sounds like you've made arbitrary restrictions on the criteria to serve your narrative, and it falls apart under any real inspection.

I play CC armies. CC is in a great spot.

I hate to tell you this pal... But I think your struggles are not the game's fault. Although it genuinely sounds like you haven't even played yet, just took a glance at the ruleset and said "nope, not 3rd, gonna go act like I'm informed enough to rewrite the rules of the game for GW".

Shooting alone is not strong, take Necrons for example.

But I'm sure you'll find ways to disqualify all this evidence and logic from the discussion or just ignore it like you did earlier. What's even the point of this thread

SemperMortis wrote:

phydaux wrote:
So it seem that for an assault oriented army to work (70-30 shooty-assault is NOT an assault-oriented army) then that army needs BOTH dedicated assault troops as a Troops choice, so as not to get nerfed by the Rule of Three) AND special rules to give the whole army either extra inches on the charge or more attacks on the charge, or BOTH.

Meanwhile all a shooting oriented army needs is to field all their best shooty units. No special rules required.

And yet people will still crow that the game is balanced, and if a Black Templar player can't win, well, it's simply because he's just a bad player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"But well, in the end the easiest way to make more units usefull is by reducing their points cost. Specialist melee units need to come with a discount, to make up for the risk of them being a useless pick in many games."

It simply doesn't matter how cheap you make, say, a vanilla Space Marines Assault Squad. The Space Marines player can still only take three of them.

I haven't seen any tournament results where Horde armies are winning except at the London GT where the guy slow played the entire tournament. Someone mentioned Dallas but I couldn't find the list nor any other results, granted I just got off work and I am not breaking the internet looking

Personally I miss my Kommandos, Speed Freakz and Kanz. I REALLY Miss my warbikers!

I didn’t save the Dallas Open 4-1 Ork list, but like I said, just toss together as many boyz, KMKs, weird boyz, and big meks as you can find and you’re 90% there. The undefeated list I recall from Dallas Open was DE, which incidentally had some Wyches and Skyweavers as an assault element.

Incidentally, I do appreciate that OP has noticed most assault armies need movement options that get their units into CC reliably. Yeah, that’s totally true. There’s a lot of armies like that out there. Try one of them.

 SHUPPET wrote:


I play CC armies. CC is in a great spot.

I hate to tell you this pal... But I think your struggles are not the game's fault. Although it genuinely sounds like you haven't even played yet, just took a glance at the ruleset and said "nope, not 3rd, gonna go act like I'm informed enough to rewrite the rules of the game for GW".

Shooting alone is not strong, take Necrons for example.

But I'm sure you'll find ways to disqualify all this evidence and logic from the discussion or just ignore it like you did earlier. What's even the point of this thread

Ok, so if assault is so strong then why does GK assault work so bad, specially after the change to deep strike? Assault works only for those armies that were "breaking" the core rules to begin with. Assault stuff should be killable, and then there is something like Magnus, unkillable, great in melee, great caster and runs around with 3-4 mini versions of himself, with a ton of re-rolls, and still somehow the army has enough points to buy troops.

Eldar lancer bikers, are great it is impossible to stop their charge on a normal 4x4 table. Same with half of the DE stuff. But what is really the worse thing, is that all those armies aren't just assault armies. With all the psychic powers, and guns they have they are also great at shoting. At the same time normal armies have weapons that do nothing, no ap, no ignore LoS, special weapons that get negativ mods for everything. I played against an assault Inari list with flyers, like half the stuff in the army was either -2 or even -3 to hit, when my stuff moved the special weapons I had were hiting stuff worse then an orc.

Karol wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:


I play CC armies. CC is in a great spot.

I hate to tell you this pal... But I think your struggles are not the game's fault. Although it genuinely sounds like you haven't even played yet, just took a glance at the ruleset and said "nope, not 3rd, gonna go act like I'm informed enough to rewrite the rules of the game for GW".

Shooting alone is not strong, take Necrons for example.

But I'm sure you'll find ways to disqualify all this evidence and logic from the discussion or just ignore it like you did earlier. What's even the point of this thread

Ok, so if assault is so strong then why does GK assault work so bad, specially after the change to deep strike? Assault works only for those armies that were "breaking" the core rules to begin with. Assault stuff should be killable, and then there is something like Magnus, unkillable, great in melee, great caster and runs around with 3-4 mini versions of himself, with a ton of re-rolls, and still somehow the army has enough points to buy troops.

Eldar lancer bikers, are great it is impossible to stop their charge on a normal 4x4 table. Same with half of the DE stuff. But what is really the worse thing, is that all those armies aren't just assault armies. With all the psychic powers, and guns they have they are also great at shoting. At the same time normal armies have weapons that do nothing, no ap, no ignore LoS, special weapons that get negativ mods for everything. I played against an assault Inari list with flyers, like half the stuff in the army was either -2 or even -3 to hit, when my stuff moved the special weapons I had were hiting stuff worse then an orc.

You are literally comparing the weakest army in the game, designed for a different ruleset, with the strongest army in the game. This is not assault vs shooting.

You play one army, and every post you make is about that army. Stop mistaking that one army for being a measure of the game as a whole. You are the FIRST to point out in EVERY other thread how much weaker Grey Knights are than even other assault armies, and you never struggle to steer any conversation to the topic of your GK, as you're quite transparently attempting to do here. So drop the hypocrisy, stop singing a narrative you don't understand well enough to convince even the most impressionable of onlookers. Go borrow someones Necrons, build the shootiest list you can imagine, try to take on Tyranids or Custodes or Catachan, and tell me how OP shooting is to assault. The flaw is with GK and you well know it.

SemperMortis wrote:I haven't seen any tournament results where Horde armies are winning except at the London GT where the guy slow played the entire tournament. Someone mentioned Dallas but I couldn't find the list nor any other results, granted I just got off work and I am not breaking the internet looking

Just for the sake any potential confusion -- the UK GT was the one that was won by the slow-playing Ork guy, the London GT was won by a Catachan close combat horde with custard bikes and BA smash captains.

 nurgle5 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:I haven't seen any tournament results where Horde armies are winning except at the London GT where the guy slow played the entire tournament. Someone mentioned Dallas but I couldn't find the list nor any other results, granted I just got off work and I am not breaking the internet looking

Just for the sake any potential confusion -- the UK GT was the one that was won by the slow-playing Ork guy, the London GT was won by a Catachan close combat horde with custard bikes and BA smash captains.

Thanks for clarifying

Also, as for army wide rules that make shooting good? don't even need army wide rules, how about the strategems and tactics and unit abilities which allow them to shoot twice in one turn? Hell look at girlyman, before his points increases he was a god in the game. Everything rerolls hits and wounds? Add in the ability to shoot twice if you get killed (looking at you plasma gunners) and poof you have a great gun line

SemperMortis wrote:

 nurgle5 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:I haven't seen any tournament results where Horde armies are winning except at the London GT where the guy slow played the entire tournament. Someone mentioned Dallas but I couldn't find the list nor any other results, granted I just got off work and I am not breaking the internet looking

Just for the sake any potential confusion -- the UK GT was the one that was won by the slow-playing Ork guy, the London GT was won by a Catachan close combat horde with custard bikes and BA smash captains.

Thanks for clarifying

Also, as for army wide rules that make shooting good? don't even need army wide rules, how about the strategems and tactics and unit abilities which allow them to shoot twice in one turn? Hell look at girlyman, before his points increases he was a god in the game. Everything rerolls hits and wounds? Add in the ability to shoot twice if you get killed (looking at you plasma gunners) and poof you have a great gun line

exactly. A whole bunch of special rules woven all through the top gunlines, and people in here acting like re-rolls to charge somehow break the rule of the game so doesn't count as being a good raw assault unit, while at the same time acting as though shooting armies get by on virtue of pew. It's simply not the case but People are past the point of caring about reality by now lol

 SHUPPET wrote:
exactly. A whole bunch of special rules woven all through the top gunlines, and people in here acting like re-rolls to charge somehow break the rule of the game so doesn't count as being a good raw assault unit, while at the same time acting as though shooting armies get by virtue of pew. People are past the point of caring about reality by now lol

yup, nothing like watching your entire army disintegrate by the end of turn 2 to an enemy gunline that you couldn't even reach let alone hurt. Tau are probably the worst offenders at this with their overwatch shenanigans. You pretty much have to shoot them off the table to win...which is ironically the best way to kill them since once you remove their markerlights they significantly drop in effectiveness.

SemperMortis wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
exactly. A whole bunch of special rules woven all through the top gunlines, and people in here acting like re-rolls to charge somehow break the rule of the game so doesn't count as being a good raw assault unit, while at the same time acting as though shooting armies get by virtue of pew. People are past the point of caring about reality by now lol

yup, nothing like watching your entire army disintegrate by the end of turn 2 to an enemy gunline that you couldn't even reach let alone hurt. Tau are probably the worst offenders at this with their overwatch shenanigans. You pretty much have to shoot them off the table to win...which is ironically the best way to kill them since once you remove their markerlights they significantly drop in effectiveness.

Tau feel pretty ridiculous for this right now, their shooting alpha strike is bananas. My Nids just get melted by the Tigershark lists doing well at the moment. But like you said, they lean heavily on markers and other buffs, if you can turn off their special rules you seriously impact their army. I think Tau might even be a bit too much right now, but thats a result mainly of FW not updating their costs to reflect the new super HBC that the unit was given, and maybe because FTGG with 5+ to hit thanks to Sept is a bit absurd. It's not because assault is written badly as some guys here are saying. TAU is the ones using special rules to break the rules of assault to stop that gak with their overwatch wall, not the other way around.

 SHUPPET wrote:
I think Tau might even be a bit too much right now, but thats a result mainly of FW not updating their costs to reflect the new super HBC that the unit was given

Actually it's the other way around. The HBC is 55 points in the FW index book, 35 points with a better stat line in the Tau codex. The only reason the Tigershark is any good is because the GW update applies to the index rules, there is no "just update its cost" nerf to apply.

And, as stated in the FW legality thread, the Tigershark only looks good because the rest of the Tau codex is underwhelming. Compare the HBC Tigershark to its points in LR Punishers and it is suddenly a lot less impressive.

 Peregrine wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I think Tau might even be a bit too much right now, but thats a result mainly of FW not updating their costs to reflect the new super HBC that the unit was given

Actually it's the other way around. The HBC is 55 points in the FW index book, 35 points with a better stat line in the Tau codex. The only reason the Tigershark is any good is because the GW update applies to the index rules, there is no "just update its cost" nerf to apply.

And, as stated in the FW legality thread, the Tigershark only looks good because the rest of the Tau codex is underwhelming. Compare the HBC Tigershark to its points in LR Punishers and it is suddenly a lot less impressive.

The gun got better, the price reduced, but the FW model was not in the book, so it's price was not changed to reflect this, as it probably needs to be.

The Tigershark looks good because it is good. Really damn good. Tau is NOT a weak dex lol

Tau isn’t weak, Tau players just whine a lot.

I'm a Tau player and I don't whine about my Codex

#PeaceForAun'Va

 SHUPPET wrote:
The gun got better, the price reduced, but the FW model was not in the book, so it's price was not changed to reflect this, as it probably needs to be.

I'm not sure why you think this when the whole point of 8th edition pricing is that the carrier cost is independent from the weapon cost. If a HBC is worth 35 points on a Riptide then it's worth 35 points on a Hammerhead or 35 points on a Tigershark or 35 points on a Barracuda or 35 points on any other unit that can carry it. Nothing about the Tigershark itself changed, so the carrier cost wouldn't change either.

The Tigershark looks good because it is good. Really damn good. Tau is NOT a weak dex lol

Again, see the other thread. The math on it is just not that impressive. It's a solid unit, probably, but it's hardly OMG NERF IT NOW good compared to other tournament-level units. It only looks great when you compare it to a badly flawed codex full of underperforming units.

 Peregrine wrote:
I'm not sure why you think this when the whole point of 8th edition pricing is that the carrier cost is independent from the weapon cost.

GW and forgeworld have not been particularly good as sticking to this principle.

Also it's simply inaccurate - see power fist costs across various units for an example.

The living rules are as animated as a zombie.

Look at imperial knights they just got a decent update, but the wraithknights that were already worse are now not even worth comparing anymore.

 SHUPPET wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
exactly. A whole bunch of special rules woven all through the top gunlines, and people in here acting like re-rolls to charge somehow break the rule of the game so doesn't count as being a good raw assault unit, while at the same time acting as though shooting armies get by virtue of pew. People are past the point of caring about reality by now lol

yup, nothing like watching your entire army disintegrate by the end of turn 2 to an enemy gunline that you couldn't even reach let alone hurt. Tau are probably the worst offenders at this with their overwatch shenanigans. You pretty much have to shoot them off the table to win...which is ironically the best way to kill them since once you remove their markerlights they significantly drop in effectiveness.

Tau feel pretty ridiculous for this right now, their shooting alpha strike is bananas. My Nids just get melted by the Tigershark lists doing well at the moment. But like you said, they lean heavily on markers and other buffs, if you can turn off their special rules you seriously impact their army. I think Tau might even be a bit too much right now, but thats a result mainly of FW not updating their costs to reflect the new super HBC that the unit was given, and maybe because FTGG with 5+ to hit thanks to Sept is a bit absurd. It's not because assault is written badly as some guys here are saying. TAU is the ones using special rules to break the rules of assault to stop that gak with their overwatch wall, not the other way around.

Do the Tau have a power that lets them buff over watch too? I know they can get to reroll 1s but there is very little that can buff overwatch.

"Do the Tau have a power that lets them buff over watch too? I know they can get to reroll 1s but there is very little that can buff overwatch."

For The Greater Good lets one squad fire Overwatch when the squad next to it gets charged, at the expense of not being able to Overwatch if THEY get charged themselves.

Add that to drones being so cheap for Tau and the assaulty player has to chose between assaulting a nearly worthless unit cheap drones, or assaulting Fire Warriors and getting overwatched by the Fire Warriors AND 2-3 units of drones.

Add to this that Tau units get to shift wounds to nearby drone units and Tau armies have a lot of bonuses.

Headlss wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
exactly. A whole bunch of special rules woven all through the top gunlines, and people in here acting like re-rolls to charge somehow break the rule of the game so doesn't count as being a good raw assault unit, while at the same time acting as though shooting armies get by virtue of pew. People are past the point of caring about reality by now lol

yup, nothing like watching your entire army disintegrate by the end of turn 2 to an enemy gunline that you couldn't even reach let alone hurt. Tau are probably the worst offenders at this with their overwatch shenanigans. You pretty much have to shoot them off the table to win...which is ironically the best way to kill them since once you remove their markerlights they significantly drop in effectiveness.

Tau feel pretty ridiculous for this right now, their shooting alpha strike is bananas. My Nids just get melted by the Tigershark lists doing well at the moment. But like you said, they lean heavily on markers and other buffs, if you can turn off their special rules you seriously impact their army. I think Tau might even be a bit too much right now, but thats a result mainly of FW not updating their costs to reflect the new super HBC that the unit was given, and maybe because FTGG with 5+ to hit thanks to Sept is a bit absurd. It's not because assault is written badly as some guys here are saying. TAU is the ones using special rules to break the rules of assault to stop that gak with their overwatch wall, not the other way around.

Do the Tau have a power that lets them buff over watch too? I know they can get to reroll 1s but there is very little that can buff overwatch.

Yeah, there's a few things.

If a Markerlight hits during Overwatch, models can re-roll 1s.
T'au Sept (one of their "chapter tactics") lets you hit on 5s in Overwatch.
Suits can take a Counterfire Defense System that lets them re-roll Overwatch misses.
Nearby Tau (except most vehicles) can join together for Overwatch with For the Greater Good, but give up their own ability to Overwatch later.
Vehicles have a stratagem to Overwatch on a 5.

meleti wrote:

Headlss wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
exactly. A whole bunch of special rules woven all through the top gunlines, and people in here acting like re-rolls to charge somehow break the rule of the game so doesn't count as being a good raw assault unit, while at the same time acting as though shooting armies get by virtue of pew. People are past the point of caring about reality by now lol

yup, nothing like watching your entire army disintegrate by the end of turn 2 to an enemy gunline that you couldn't even reach let alone hurt. Tau are probably the worst offenders at this with their overwatch shenanigans. You pretty much have to shoot them off the table to win...which is ironically the best way to kill them since once you remove their markerlights they significantly drop in effectiveness.

Tau feel pretty ridiculous for this right now, their shooting alpha strike is bananas. My Nids just get melted by the Tigershark lists doing well at the moment. But like you said, they lean heavily on markers and other buffs, if you can turn off their special rules you seriously impact their army. I think Tau might even be a bit too much right now, but thats a result mainly of FW not updating their costs to reflect the new super HBC that the unit was given, and maybe because FTGG with 5+ to hit thanks to Sept is a bit absurd. It's not because assault is written badly as some guys here are saying. TAU is the ones using special rules to break the rules of assault to stop that gak with their overwatch wall, not the other way around.

Do the Tau have a power that lets them buff over watch too? I know they can get to reroll 1s but there is very little that can buff overwatch.

Yeah, there's a few things.

If a Markerlight hits during Overwatch, models can re-roll 1s.
T'au Sept (one of their "chapter tactics") lets you hit on 5s in Overwatch.
Suits can take a Counterfire Defense System that lets them re-roll Overwatch misses.
Nearby Tau (except most vehicles) can join together for Overwatch with For the Greater Good, but give up their own ability to Overwatch later.
Vehicles have a stratagem to Overwatch on a 5.

Ouch. I need to get a Homoculas then, and a Autarch skyrunner, for the no overwatch masks. Or just find some corners. For LOS.

I knew about for the greater good. I've faced that before. Didn't know they could hit on 5s.

The good thing about greater good is they pack in nice and tight, once you get a unit of wythches in there you can just climb up the ladder with consolidate and pile in from one unit to the next. That was fun.


Are you sure the unit that greater goods can't overwatch if they get charged themselves? We were playing that they could. They could only greater good once, but they could greater good and then overwatch if they were charged themselves, and then over watch again if the first charge failed and they got charged again.

If a unit fires Overwatch for another unit via For The Greater Good, it may not fire Overwatch again that turn, either for itself or another unit. It is a SACRIFICE they make For The Greater Good.