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Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Karol wrote:
How do you stop interceptors from dieing on turn 1? Anything that draws line of sight to them kills them dead. And with knights being the newest army, it is impossible to get LoS blocking terrain vs them as they see everything, specially with most knight players mounting high banners on top of their knights to draw LoS better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 nurgle5 wrote:
Karol wrote:

So how would an IG army that is ok to face with GK look like?


Maybe I'm not putting my point across clearly enough -- I'm not saying there's a threshold in which the GK book is suddenly as good as the "top tier" ones. My point is that some people collect their faction for reasons other than the competitive value of their codex, and that they can do fine in their games because they're not always playing against competitive players with competitive lists. I'm not here to do scenario-building for a IG-GK game, you should head over the GK tactica thread for that kind of specific advice. It sucks for you that you're playing a weak codex against power-gamers, but pointing out that other people aren't sharing your miserable time isn't the same as saying the GK book is fine as is.


There is no GK tactica. I don't know what a power gamer is, only one of my opponents plays at any form of tournaments, the rest plays maybe at store events, some even don't do that. Everyone else seems to have fun with their lists, and not everyone has the best of the best set ups, mostly because of fear of nerfs or not being able to buy stuff like 100 firewarriors. I get it 350$ is not the same as 1000$, and that a later will always be better. But why there is a huge difference between 350$ and 500$ ?
And from what people seem to be saying GW is going to take time till december to fix GK stuff, only they don't say a thing how they will fix it. The last CA, I have been told, was ment as fix to stuff too. Maybe it was, no idea how armies changed after it, but the GK stuff in the book was nothing like a fix, it shouldn't even qualify as an errata.


Well you can't attach an extra banner to the top of the knight for los purposes, that's modeling for advantage and i'd just call a judge. That's pretty egregious.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




How is it modeling for adventage there is a ton of art of imperial titans walking around with banner the size of their own body. GK termintors and paladins have to wear those crests, although in their case it is more of a hinderance as they don't have powerful shoting weapons.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in ca
Wicked Wych With a Whip




Drawing line of sight to any point of the model is dumb.

Banners flap in the wind they don't shoot.
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard



UK

Headlss wrote:
Drawing line of sight to any point of the model is dumb.

Banners flap in the wind they don't shoot.


Welcome to 8th ed.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Headlss wrote:
Drawing line of sight to any point of the model is dumb.

Banners flap in the wind they don't shoot.

It is the rule. Eldar players here told me ton of stories about crawling eldar dreadnoughts, space marine with eyes on stalks and firing from behind rhinos when opponents can fire back, because LoS is drawn from eyes to body, GW making scenic bases legal and all tyranid players at the stores making 18" long teardrop bases to use free pivot with their monsters to charge turn one from their deployment. And this is just the stories I remember right now, people talk about nothing else, but how to use the rules to get an edge over others.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Karol wrote:
Headlss wrote:
Drawing line of sight to any point of the model is dumb.

Banners flap in the wind they don't shoot.

It is the rule. Eldar players here told me ton of stories about crawling eldar dreadnoughts, space marine with eyes on stalks and firing from behind rhinos when opponents can fire back, because LoS is drawn from eyes to body, GW making scenic bases legal and all tyranid players at the stores making 18" long teardrop bases to use free pivot with their monsters to charge turn one from their deployment. And this is just the stories I remember right now, people talk about nothing else, but how to use the rules to get an edge over others.

In that case i seriously recommend you change the community because that is literally what i'd call "regelwichseri", and most certainly not a fun experience.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Gk like all marines have a ton of players that don't treasure what good the codex has. And it does have a lot of good options.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/11 11:44:22


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 koooaei wrote:
Gk like all marines have a ton of players that don't treasure what good the codex has. And it does have a lot of good options.


Thats primarily because like all codexes that are "overall bad" the good in the GK codex is overshadowed by the consistent annoyances and problems, and many things seem not good because the base units that can have them are highly suboptimal.

Interceptors have the ability to deep strike turn 1, which plenty of armies make great use of. Hammerhand, Gate of Infinity, Vortex of Doom and Sanctuary are all objectively excellent psychic powers. They also have very solid warlord traits, and much better stratagems than base marines. The units that can use them though are all poor, and some things that could be quite good (say, brother captains smite range boost) are hampered because no unit has access to real smite, even 200-300pt HQs.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Karol wrote:
Headlss wrote:
Drawing line of sight to any point of the model is dumb.

Banners flap in the wind they don't shoot.

It is the rule. Eldar players here told me ton of stories about crawling eldar dreadnoughts, space marine with eyes on stalks and firing from behind rhinos when opponents can fire back, because LoS is drawn from eyes to body, GW making scenic bases legal and all tyranid players at the stores making 18" long teardrop bases to use free pivot with their monsters to charge turn one from their deployment. And this is just the stories I remember right now, people talk about nothing else, but how to use the rules to get an edge over others.


I think this has been pointed out to you numerous times, but it bears repeating. Either those stories are people making things up based on a bunch of dumb arguments people made in the past about modelling for advantage, or you're part of one of the most toxic gaming communities I've ever heard of. If the latter is the case then there's not much anyone can do to help, unfortunately, but it's worth making it absolutely clear that this is not normal.
   
Made in ca
Wicked Wych With a Whip




Karol wrote:
Headlss wrote:
Drawing line of sight to any point of the model is dumb.

Banners flap in the wind they don't shoot.

It is the rule. Eldar players here told me ton of stories about crawling eldar dreadnoughts, space marine with eyes on stalks and firing from behind rhinos when opponents can fire back, because LoS is drawn from eyes to body, GW making scenic bases legal and all tyranid players at the stores making 18" long teardrop bases to use free pivot with their monsters to charge turn one from their deployment. And this is just the stories I remember right now, people talk about nothing else, but how to use the rules to get an edge over others.



Ha! Love it!

Sure, if theres money on the line and you are at an untra competitive tournament with extensive rules and judges great.

Otherwise feth right off with that bs.
   
Made in ie
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle






Karol wrote:There is no GK tactica. I don't know what a power gamer is, only one of my opponents plays at any form of tournaments, the rest plays maybe at store events, some even don't do that. Everyone else seems to have fun with their lists, and not everyone has the best of the best set ups, mostly because of fear of nerfs or not being able to buy stuff like 100 firewarriors. I get it 350$ is not the same as 1000$, and that a later will always be better. But why there is a huge difference between 350$ and 500$ ?
And from what people seem to be saying GW is going to take time till december to fix GK stuff, only they don't say a thing how they will fix it. The last CA, I have been told, was ment as fix to stuff too. Maybe it was, no idea how armies changed after it, but the GK stuff in the book was nothing like a fix, it shouldn't even qualify as an errata.


The GK tactica thread is right over here. You can find a definition of powergaming here. Stuff like this, this, this, and this are all pretty good examples of powergaming or a powergaming attitude towards the game. Maybe most 40k people at your FLGS aren't unpleasant WAAC types, but it's sure how they come across in your posts.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/11 13:58:56


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 nurgle5 wrote:
Karol wrote:There is no GK tactica. I don't know what a power gamer is, only one of my opponents plays at any form of tournaments, the rest plays maybe at store events, some even don't do that. Everyone else seems to have fun with their lists, and not everyone has the best of the best set ups, mostly because of fear of nerfs or not being able to buy stuff like 100 firewarriors. I get it 350$ is not the same as 1000$, and that a later will always be better. But why there is a huge difference between 350$ and 500$ ?
And from what people seem to be saying GW is going to take time till december to fix GK stuff, only they don't say a thing how they will fix it. The last CA, I have been told, was ment as fix to stuff too. Maybe it was, no idea how armies changed after it, but the GK stuff in the book was nothing like a fix, it shouldn't even qualify as an errata.


The GK tactica thread is right over here. You can find a definition of powergaming here. Stuff like this, this, this, and this are all pretty good examples of powergaming or a powergaming attitude towards the game. Maybe most 40k people at your FLGS aren't unpleasant WAAC types, but it's sure how they come across in your posts.





....it is also worth noting here that there is a HUGE difference between even the same amount of money spent different ways.

imagine a guy buying a kit of miniatures and then just gluing the options on completely randomly. Build ten space marines, you might have 2 guys with power swords, 5 guys with bolters, a plasma gunner, a rocket launcher, and a heavy bolter.

Then, imagine a guy who goes to the store and buys a box of miniatures, then either looks up what's good and builds them that way (sarge with combi-plasma, plasma, then the rest just boltguns) or puts magnets on them so he can swap and be safe from nerfs.

They've both spent the same amount of money, however, the second guy is going to get FAR more use out of the squad he's created over the years, and the first guy is going to have to buy more boxes to even make his miniatures able to be played in the game.

Buying miniatures in large lots second hand is EXACTLY the same as what the first guy is doing here. You will average less than half of the minis you buy being useful in the current edition of the game, because you'll get a lot of old stuff, or builds that were really good in previous editions like scatter laser bikes, or squads with too many special weapons, or weird conversions that don't even make sense. Sure, you can sometimes get a good deal, and get a lot of figures for the money...but if you're new at the game, and have no idea what's good, that's like winning the lottery.

Every new player I have ever known who starts by buying an army secondhand, every one without fail 100% of the damn time, and I have seen dozens, either gets completely ripped off and spends WAY more money than the minis are worth, or gets a bunch of useless stuff that they can't win games with, or both.

And again, 100% of the time without fail, any conversation I have with them about "oh, how are you starting out, have you picked a faction" they tell me about how they got this amazing deal and they managed to beat crooked ol' Games Workshop at their own game.

People do get amazing deals on ebay, actually good deals they get their money's worth for. Those people are people who know how to play the game, know what's competitive, and know what to search for and what to avoid ("PRO PAINTED" FULL ARMY LOT photographed from reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaallly far away? that's a red warning flag right there.)


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 nurgle5 wrote:


The GK tactica thread is right over here. You can find a definition of powergaming here. Stuff like this, this, this, and this are all pretty good examples of powergaming or a powergaming attitude towards the game. Maybe most 40k people at your FLGS aren't unpleasant WAAC types, but it's sure how they come across in your posts.





Read the last 4 pages, all people talk in the tactica is GK from other editions, switching to other armies and forcing people to not use the FAQ. It isn't much of a tactica, the other armies have lists and combos, and how to use units. I will try later to check stuff that is deeper then 4 pages in the past.

I don't see how playing with in a given rule set could be considered bad, and WAAC seems to be considered bad. People play the game here the way the rule are, the only changes to it are official errata and FAQ.


Sure, if theres money on the line and you are at an untra competitive tournament with extensive rules and judges great.

we are just one store, we aren't Warsaw or some other big city that probablly has like 100 people playing the game. And money is always involved, the armies ain't free

In that case i seriously recommend you change the community because that is literally what i'd call "regelwichseri", and most certainly not a fun experience..

Closest place that has a store is 3 hours away from me and requires 3 bus changes. Plus is in an area where most people are ortodox, and they don't like us and we don't like them. The other place where there are more stores is either Gdansk or Suwalki, to play there I would either require a private helicopter or a flat bought there just to live there and play.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block




As for the wait till December thing... I mean it sucks to wait to get any changes but I would rather wait and have them get it right (or close to right) rather then rush it out and suddenly we end up with broken rules or something.

I have hopes for this chapter approved though since all the codices (or at least almost all can't recall from the top of my head) will be out by then, and GW will have been able to see the "codex" meta as opposed to the "index" meta and balance with that in mind.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Buying miniatures in large lots second hand is EXACTLY the same as what the first guy is doing here. You will average less than half of the minis you buy being useful in the current edition of the game, because you'll get a lot of old stuff, or builds that were really good in previous editions like scatter laser bikes, or squads with too many special weapons, or weird conversions that don't even make sense. Sure, you can sometimes get a good deal, and get a lot of figures for the money...but if you're new at the game, and have no idea what's good, that's like winning the lottery.

The GK models I bought besides the NDK and a rhino were all metal, and had no replacment parts. But I do understand now that GW makes models bad, when they put out a new batch just so people buy them. The problem with this is that A people who have those bad models will never tell you they are bad, because they want to get back at least some of their investment back B Somehow metal models cost more then plastic online, that drives the resell price higher. C GK don't have good option, It wouldn't matter if my models had psycannons or incinerators, swords instead of halabards. They suck anyway.

I tried to proxy the interceptor list against my best friend. The list just doesn't work. Even if he is ok to allow first turn shunt moves, this still means they get in range, kill some chafff and on my opponents turn his dudes that are doing the killing disembark from wave serpents and just shot them to hell. And if the shunt is used to just move around the opposing army just takes the objectives and waits. Something like wave serpents, or jebikes aren't one use only, so they don't have to worry that after one use the high cost dude with 1w and +4/+5 sv moves at a snail speed.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






"Settlers of Catan is such a stupid bs game. One of my friends always brings a giant, custom made robber tile that covers 4 hexes and uses it to cover up your whole territory. Another went to a carpenter's shop and built himself hexagonal roads that go all the way around a tile so he builds really fast and gets the Longest Road card with just two roads built. And since we started playing with loaded dice, the 11 and 12 tiles have been super overpowered. To make matters worse I main the Red color, and I bought a secondhand Catan set online where someone swapped out the red set for a set of plastic monopoly houses, so I can never build Cities and I always lose.

When is Mayfair going to get off their asses and fix this horribly broken game? we're just playing the ruleset as written!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:
Buying miniatures in large lots second hand is EXACTLY the same as what the first guy is doing here. You will average less than half of the minis you buy being useful in the current edition of the game, because you'll get a lot of old stuff, or builds that were really good in previous editions like scatter laser bikes, or squads with too many special weapons, or weird conversions that don't even make sense. Sure, you can sometimes get a good deal, and get a lot of figures for the money...but if you're new at the game, and have no idea what's good, that's like winning the lottery.

The GK models I bought besides the NDK and a rhino were all metal, and had no replacment parts. But I do understand now that GW makes models bad, when they put out a new batch just so people buy them. The problem with this is that A people who have those bad models will never tell you they are bad, because they want to get back at least some of their investment back B Somehow metal models cost more then plastic online, that drives the resell price higher. C GK don't have good option, It wouldn't matter if my models had psycannons or incinerators, swords instead of halabards. They suck anyway.

I tried to proxy the interceptor list against my best friend. The list just doesn't work. Even if he is ok to allow first turn shunt moves, this still means they get in range, kill some chafff and on my opponents turn his dudes that are doing the killing disembark from wave serpents and just shot them to hell. And if the shunt is used to just move around the opposing army just takes the objectives and waits. Something like wave serpents, or jebikes aren't one use only, so they don't have to worry that after one use the high cost dude with 1w and +4/+5 sv moves at a snail speed.


You are somehow still framing this as a Games Workshop problem and not a You problem, huh?

Look.

Buddy.

You bought a secondhand army of 15 randomly assorted terminators, one single 5 man strike squad with an illegal weapon loadout, TWO rhinos for that 5-man strike squad, draigo, and one dreadknight, for almost double the money that those models would have costed brand new out of the box.

Games Workshop did not reach into your wallet and give your money to the dude you bought those models from. Also, those models are not terrible because Games Workshop is evil and makes old models terrible.

Conscripts, Basilisks, Shining Spears, Ravagers, Grotesques, Dark Reapers, Hive Guard, Kabalites, Venoms, Wave Serpents etc are all 8-10+ year old sculpts that are all top-tier tournament competitive right now, and Games Workshop's shiny new poster boy range of Primaris marines is INCREDIBLY bad in-game.They are not maliciously balancing the new gak to be good so secondhand models lose value.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/11 14:45:01


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in ie
Virulent Space Marine dedicated to Nurgle






Karol wrote:Read the last 4 pages, all people talk in the tactica is GK from other editions, switching to other armies and forcing people to not use the FAQ. It isn't much of a tactica, the other armies have lists and combos, and how to use units. I will try later to check stuff that is deeper then 4 pages in the past.

I don't see how playing with in a given rule set could be considered bad, and WAAC seems to be considered bad. People play the game here the way the rule are, the only changes to it are official errata and FAQ.


Post in the tactica thread and you might get the advice you've been fishing for in other threads.

Regarding why WAAC is considered to be bad, there's quite a good quote from jy2 on this, you've probably seen it in SHUPPET's signature --

 jy2 wrote:
Note to the OP. Win at all Costs, or WAAC, usually has a negative connotation. Just because someone runs a more competitive list than you are normally used to doesn't make that player a WAAC player. A WAAC player is also a player who wants to win so badly as to the exclusion of other people's enjoyment. It goes beyond just running a "netlist". Basically, a WAAC player is usually a poor sport, will argue rules in his favor, will semi-cheat to cheating outright, will argue if you do something that will hurt his chances to win, and will generally be rather unpleasant to play or even be around. It's really all about his attitude, not his list. There are plenty of competitive players who run tough lists, but are fair and pleasant people to play against.


But WAAC might be too tame a term for having a crowd jeer the other player to ruin their concentration or smashing someone's army up so they can't play.

the_scotsman wrote:People do get amazing deals on ebay, actually good deals they get their money's worth for. Those people are people who know how to play the game, know what's competitive, and know what to search for and what to avoid ("PRO PAINTED" FULL ARMY LOT photographed from reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaallly far away? that's a red warning flag right there.)


TBH on eBay the phrase "pro-painted" is usually a red flag in and of itself!

Flamephoenix182 wrote:I have hopes for this chapter approved though since all the codices (or at least almost all can't recall from the top of my head) will be out by then, and GW will have been able to see the "codex" meta as opposed to the "index" meta and balance with that in mind.


We live in hope



 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Conscripts, Basilisks, Shining Spears, Ravagers, Grotesques, Dark Reapers, Hive Guard, Kabalites, Venoms, Wave Serpents etc are all 8-10+ year old sculpts that are all top-tier tournament competitive right now, and Games Workshop's shiny new poster boy range of Primaris marines is INCREDIBLY bad in-game.They are not maliciously balancing the new gak to be good so secondhand models lose value.

Neither in the rule book, nor in the codex does it state that this or that army has its rules writen to be bad. I have never played table top games before w40k, I did play a few card games. And MtG or Netrunner would never have things GW games have.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Legendary Dogfighter




england

 Marmatag wrote:
Why do people keep making GK threads?

Ahh deep lack of imagination I'm guessing.
After all they don't play the game...how could they have the time with all this whinging.
Isengard wrote:
I believe they are not really intended as a stand-alone army. They are, I believe, intended to be tacked into a general Imperial army as a detachment, possibly with IG or AM. They certainly aren't going to win many battles on their own!

They never really have been. They've always been something you add on for special situations and not just for every single game and not single handedly.
Flamephoenix182 wrote:
I'm a grey knight player, and mostly just because of the fluff...

BUT YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO PLAY THAT WAY!!!!
This is DakkaDakka and such talk is NOT tolerated!
hobojebus wrote:
Headlss wrote:
Drawing line of sight to any point of the model is dumb.

Banners flap in the wind they don't shoot.


Welcome to 8th ed.

Leave your brain and common sense at the door. You'll not be needing those.
 koooaei wrote:
Gk like all marines have a ton of players that don't treasure what good the codex has. And it does have a lot of good options.

To be fair that would require imagination and not just copying lists online for minimum effort.
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

Nearly everything in the post i'm quoting is a flat lie.

the_scotsman wrote:

Interceptors have the ability to deep strike turn 1, which plenty of armies make great use of.

Show me one meta army making use of this. You made the case that plenty of armies make use of it. Show me tournament winning lists (GT or otherwise) that make use of it.

the_scotsman wrote:
Hammerhand, Gate of Infinity, Vortex of Doom and Sanctuary are all objectively excellent psychic powers.
This is absurd. Vortex of Doom will hit at most 1 squad. It can hurt your guys so you can't cast it in melee. It is measurably worse than normal smite. Gate of Infinity is trash because deep strike charge is totally unreliable for GK; Hammerhand is pathetic, Blood Angels essentially get this power permanently on all of their models. Sanctuary is only good at protecting your lone GMNDK. Meanwhile for a little more points you can just bring a freaking imperial knight.

the_scotsman wrote:
They also have very solid warlord traits, and much better stratagems than base marines.

No. Hellfire shells and Krakk missiles are great stratagems. Their only good warlord trait is First to the Fray, which some HQs get for free as an ability. If you want killer AP in shot volume you can do much better with Sternguard and Imperial Fists synergy, while still getting Hellfire and Krakk.

the_scotsman wrote:
The units that can use them though are all poor, and some things that could be quite good (say, brother captains smite range boost) are hampered because no unit has access to real smite, even 200-300pt HQs.
This is true.

Things you haven't mentioned:

1. Only 1 HQ for GK give full hit rerolls, Draigo, and he's 240 points.
2. They have no access to wound rerolls in shooting.
3. They have an extremely limited range that isn't even best of breed at what they're supposed to do.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/07/11 18:24:29


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




the_scotsman wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
Gk like all marines have a ton of players that don't treasure what good the codex has. And it does have a lot of good options.


Thats primarily because like all codexes that are "overall bad" the good in the GK codex is overshadowed by the consistent annoyances and problems, and many things seem not good because the base units that can have them are highly suboptimal.

Interceptors have the ability to deep strike turn 1, which plenty of armies make great use of. Hammerhand, Gate of Infinity, Vortex of Doom and Sanctuary are all objectively excellent psychic powers. They also have very solid warlord traits, and much better stratagems than base marines. The units that can use them though are all poor, and some things that could be quite good (say, brother captains smite range boost) are hampered because no unit has access to real smite, even 200-300pt HQs.

They have ONE solid Warlord Trait. You're not taking anything else.

Also LOL at Vortex Of Doom being any good. This is a troll post, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ValentineGames wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
Why do people keep making GK threads?

Ahh deep lack of imagination I'm guessing.
After all they don't play the game...how could they have the time with all this whinging.
Isengard wrote:
I believe they are not really intended as a stand-alone army. They are, I believe, intended to be tacked into a general Imperial army as a detachment, possibly with IG or AM. They certainly aren't going to win many battles on their own!

They never really have been. They've always been something you add on for special situations and not just for every single game and not single handedly.
Flamephoenix182 wrote:
I'm a grey knight player, and mostly just because of the fluff...

BUT YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO PLAY THAT WAY!!!!
This is DakkaDakka and such talk is NOT tolerated!
hobojebus wrote:
Headlss wrote:
Drawing line of sight to any point of the model is dumb.

Banners flap in the wind they don't shoot.


Welcome to 8th ed.

Leave your brain and common sense at the door. You'll not be needing those.
 koooaei wrote:
Gk like all marines have a ton of players that don't treasure what good the codex has. And it does have a lot of good options.

To be fair that would require imagination and not just copying lists online for minimum effort.

Oh look the netdeck/netlister argument that isn't totally lazy or anything!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/11 18:58:56


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Marmatag wrote:
Nearly everything in the post i'm quoting is a flat lie.

the_scotsman wrote:

Interceptors have the ability to deep strike turn 1, which plenty of armies make great use of.

Show me one meta army making use of this. You made the case that plenty of armies make use of it. Show me tournament winning lists (GT or otherwise) that make use of it.

the_scotsman wrote:
Hammerhand, Gate of Infinity, Vortex of Doom and Sanctuary are all objectively excellent psychic powers.
This is absurd. Vortex of Doom will hit at most 1 squad. It can hurt your guys so you can't cast it in melee. It is measurably worse than normal smite. Gate of Infinity is trash because deep strike charge is totally unreliable for GK; Hammerhand is pathetic, Blood Angels essentially get this power permanently on all of their models. Sanctuary is only good at protecting your lone GMNDK. Meanwhile for a little more points you can just bring a freaking imperial knight.

the_scotsman wrote:
They also have very solid warlord traits, and much better stratagems than base marines.

No. Hellfire shells and Krakk missiles are great stratagems. Their only good warlord trait is First to the Fray, which some HQs get for free as an ability. If you want killer AP in shot volume you can do much better with Sternguard and Imperial Fists synergy, while still getting Hellfire and Krakk.

the_scotsman wrote:
The units that can use them though are all poor, and some things that could be quite good (say, brother captains smite range boost) are hampered because no unit has access to real smite, even 200-300pt HQs.
This is true.

Things you haven't mentioned:

1. Only 1 HQ for GK give full hit rerolls, Draigo, and he's 240 points.
2. They have no access to wound rerolls in shooting.
3. They have an extremely limited range that isn't even best of breed at what they're supposed to do.


I notice you didn't quote this part of the post:

"Thats primarily because like all codexes that are "overall bad" the good in the GK codex is overshadowed by the consistent annoyances and problems, and many things seem not good because the base units that can have them are highly suboptimal. "

To be clear with this statement:

the grey knights codex IS THE WORST CODEX IN THE GAME CURRENTLY. Everything that is GOOD about the codex is ruined by having to be used by BAD units. The units are primarily BAD because they are overcosted, but they are also at times BAD because they are redundant or because they are highly hampered by an incredibly overly cautious mini-smite rule.

What you are quoting and complaining about, literally nearly every complaint you have with my post, is because you missed that first sentence. Let me say it again: EVERY thing, not just some things, EVERY thing that would be good about this codex is either hampered or completely ruined by the fact that there are almost no cost-efficient units present in the codex to use it.

Here are the various ways you missed the point of my statements:

1) "show me one meta army making use of it"

The "it" i was referring to was the ability to deep strike turn 1, NOT specifically interceptors. Like all GK units, interceptors are solidly overcosted, tournament lists do not use them. Plenty of tournament lists use turn 1 deep strike in conjunction with a trait or ability to make charging more reliable. See Wings of whatever the Bangle stratagem is called, ork da jump, Dark Matter Crystal.

2) Psychic powers being bad because the units you have to buff are bad. NOT because the powers themselves are bad. Hammerhand is the same effect as the BA chapter tactic, and half of Veterans of the Long War, considered to be one of the best stratagems in the game. +1 to wound rolls is extremely good - or more accurately, is extremely good on good units. As previously discussed, deep strike can be reliable for Grey Knights with the reroll trait - 74% chance to get in is the same odds as an ork unit using Da Jump or a BA unit using the 3d6 charge stratagem.

3) Warlord traits you have Nemesis Lord (we know this can be good because again, Smash Captains are a thing), First to the Fray, and Hammer of Righteousness. All these are fine - First in the Fray is just universal because of the total reliance on deep strike to get to combat....which again is an issue with every transport being hideously overcosted. Could you create a "smash-knight" with better costed units? Probably. Do you? No, because if you take him out of BA you get access to Scouts with the Blood Angel tactic, which are actually decent.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




You're out of touch with reality.
1. Hammer of Righteousness is bad because Grandmaster Dreadknights already wound everything on a 2+ barring very specific targets
2. Nemesis Lord only works if you get into melee, and +1 damage isn't that great a bonus when you're inflicting D6 damage on the first place.
3. All those +1 To Wound Strategems have the benefit of being on range attacks. You can guarantee to be in range for that but not guarantee a charge.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're out of touch with reality.
1. Hammer of Righteousness is bad because Grandmaster Dreadknights already wound everything on a 2+ barring very specific targets
2. Nemesis Lord only works if you get into melee, and +1 damage isn't that great a bonus when you're inflicting D6 damage on the first place.
3. All those +1 To Wound Strategems have the benefit of being on range attacks. You can guarantee to be in range for that but not guarantee a charge.


1. Specific targets like every vehicle in the game not piloted by Dark Eldar. Also, you would have plenty of other Hqs besides GMNDKs who could take the trait on, say, a pair of falchions...if they didn't all suck. Why is a smashcaptain considered to be so good with its S8 thunder hammer when a marine jump captain from any other chapter is considered crap? Oh right, it's the BA chapter tactic coupled with the

2. +1 to wound on a flat 3 damage weapon, making it a flat 4 damage weapon. Does this benefit suddenly become not good when the weapon has a 50/50 chance of being a higher than 3 damage weapon?

3. VOTLW does, ignoring the fact that arguably the strongest use of VOTLW we've seen in 8th has been the tzaangor bomb, which used it in melee and contributed pretty heavily to the pair of FAQ deep strike nerfs. BA tactic is melee only. +1 to wound rolls is pretty frickin' good in 8th, period, but it still needs good units to use it on.

This is the same gak as the "Space Marine Whirlwind/Landspeeder stratagem is not a bad stratagem" argument. A rule can be not bad - or really good - depending on which units have access to it.


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




To be fair, I think smash captains are very overrated. The single best thing they have is the relic, not the +1 to wound. The second thing is probably red rampage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/11 20:03:34


 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

I'm still laughing at the argument that Vortex of Doom is "objectively good."

Hey kid, want to buy a smite with 50% reduced radius, 50% higher warp charge cast cost, and can hit your own guys? Also, you can only cast it once per turn PERIOD. Soooo good, best spell EVARS

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/07/11 20:31:13


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Or, alternatively, a smite that is 33% lower range (you know, 12/18), 24% harder to cast (because I'm assuming you're comparing this to normal smite on a 5, and not GK smite on a 4, because gk smite only does one damage) and the ability to do double the damage if you can finagle it such that there is any other enemy unit within 3" of the closest enemy model.

Which you could do with your movement phase? You say "might hit your own guys" like it's totally random.

Which psychic table are you comparing this to that you can cast more than once per turn?

This whole "must disagree with any statement of any possible positive of space marine models" religion you guys follow is fairly bizarre.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




the_scotsman wrote:

This whole "must disagree with any statement of any possible positive of space marine models" religion you guys follow is fairly bizarre.

We aren't the ones trying to defend Grey Knights, the literal worst codex of the game.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




The problem for Grey Knights is that just about everything is too expensive.

There is no way a Strike Squad Marine is worth 21 points (unless they got a reduction somewhere).
If they were about 15-16 points they would be interesting. (Still comparably fragile, but they would have respectable shooting, psychic and potential assault, although I really think they need 2A for that to be something that matters).

Looking at Terminators, Interceptors, Purifiers etc and its even more obvious.

Unfortunately GW has overvalued deep strike, doing D3 damage in melee on small numbers of attacks, bolter shooting (yes, Tactical shooting is too expensive for what it does) and the psychic is not overly special due to a limited roster of spells. Thousand Sons - who are surely something of a mirror army - do it better (although even there regular rubrics and especially terminators suffer similar problems.)

They could say beta deep strike doesn't apply to GK - which might help a bit - but really I like the beta deep strike rules and don't want to see them reduced.
(I could potentially accept that they only apply to the player going first - on the grounds that going first is often such an advantage that it would lessen this effect - but it would need some testing to see how it would warp the meta.)
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

There just needs to be a cohesive vision on what GK are supposed to be.

They're not shooty, they don't have the firepower or the range.
They're not strong in melee, they don't have the weight of dice for their cost.
They're not defensive, they have less defenses overall than marines, and low wounds:points ratio.
They're not fast, they have base marine move speeds and 0 enhancements to that.

What should they be good at? They're worse than your average generalist in much of these categories.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
 
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