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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 19:28:49
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Norn Queen
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skchsan wrote: Silentz wrote:Selecting "only in death" and paying the CP means you are eligible to fight and therefore eligible to do the fight cycle of Pile In, Fight, Consolidate.
All it does is grant the unit out-of-turn action. It doesn't count as doing anything i.e. selecting the unit to fight.
You just said it did in your statement.
All it does is grant the unit out-of-turn action.
It doesn't place it into the actual fight phase.
It grants it the action of fighting as though it was the fight phase.
It doesn't count as doing anything i.e. selecting the unit to fight.
See above. It (the stratagem) grants the unit (at which point the unit has been selected) out-of-turn action (fighting as though it was the fight phase i.e. pile in, etc etc...).
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These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/18 19:40:43
Subject: Re:Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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Cant find the SM one but here's a direct quote from the copy paste GK version:
"Use this Stratagem when a GREY KNIGHTS CHARACTER is slain. Before removing it from the battlefield, that model can immediately either shoot as if it were his Shooting phase, or fight as if it were his Fight phase."
The stratagem merely allows you to act out of turn as if it's his turn to act. You still have to follow all the rules pertaining to each phases because you haven't been given express permission to ignore/count as having fulfilled certain parts/conditions of a phase.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/18 22:08:07
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/19 09:44:17
Subject: Re:Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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A1) Honour the Chapter tells us a unit "can immediately fight again".
A2) Only In Death Does Duty End tells us a unit "can immediately fight"
Note: Reference to the fight phase for OIDDDE is only required since it could be triggered outside of the Fight phase, unlike HtC.
If "fight" meant the entire Fight phase, including Step 1, HtC would never work since you can't possibly fight "again" AND fulfill the requirement of " No unit can be selected to fght more than once in each Fight phase.", which is also part of Step 1.
In addition, Step 1 clearly states that "A fght is resolved in the following steps:", and then listing Steps 2 to 6.
So we can assume that "fight" is Steps 2 to 6, and that's it. Step 1 is just telling you how to pick a unit to fight with - which is being replaced by the Stratagems that instruct us to go to Step 2 ("fight").
Because of that, to me, the answer is "Yes" in the poll.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/19 11:05:54
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot
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To be honest just from the poll results it's clear that a large proportion people disagree, so the right answer is probably 'Needs an FAQ'
Hope they answer it sometime as I'd very much like to start surprise-hammering people again. I'm personally going to assume the weaker version of the rule until they clarify otherwise
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Fully Painted Armies: 2200pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons 450pts Imperial Knights |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/19 12:34:18
Subject: Re:Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Confessor Of Sins
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Sounds like time for people who care to email the GW Rules address:
When rules like Only in Death Does Duty End that allow a model to "fight as in the Fight Phase", does the model need to start within 1" of an enemy model to use this ability or can they pile-in to the nearest enemy model that is farther away and attack? If so, can they attack models they did not charge this turn if they charged in the Charge Phase?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/19 13:11:29
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Good gods even the word ‘again’ needs defining for some. I do feel for the writers sometimes.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/19 13:18:49
Subject: Re:Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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nekooni wrote:If "fight" meant the entire Fight phase, including Step 1, HtC would never work since you can't possibly fight "again" AND fulfill the requirement of " No unit can be selected to fght more than once in each Fight phase.", which is also part of Step 1.
Same thing happens when you proc Blood for the Blood God. You are told to go through the ENTIRE fight phase as per FAQ.Here, you are SPECIFICALLY told you can fight again, nulling the restriction in which you cannot fight more than once per fight phase. And the reason why fight again rules work is that when you go back to step 1, in order for you to have been in a fight so that you can fight AGAIN during the fight phase in the first place is if you either charged or were within 1" of the enemy. So, your comparison here is irrelevant to the point youre making and is actually proving the other side of your argument.
nekooni wrote:In addition, Step 1 clearly states that "A fght is resolved in the following steps:", and then listing Steps 2 to 6.
So we can assume that "fight" is Steps 2 to 6, and that's it. Step 1 is just telling you how to pick a unit to fight with - which is being replaced by the Stratagems that instruct us to go to Step 2 ("fight").
Because of that, to me, the answer is "Yes" in the poll.
Again, assumption as you're not told to skip step 1 0r count the usage of strategm as having replacing step 1. That's not how the rules work. Unless you are specifically told what you CAN do, you can't do it.
The implied suggested use for the stratagem seems to be if a character is slain during your opponent's turn, rather than not being able to do ANYTHING with it come your subsequent turn (since by then the model would have been removed), it allows you to make shooting attacks with it. But since you can't shoot if you were within 1" of enemy units, and since people will be really mad if being in combat prevents/makes this stratagem useless by only being allowed to fire pistols, if you were killed in combat (where shooting attacks cannot be made) you get to swing instead.
Note how the stratagem doesn't override the general 'you can't perform the same action twice in a turn' provision - so if you died to a plasma overheat, you don't get to shoot with him again using the stratagem. Same thing with fighting - if you were killed after swinging in combat, you cannot use this stratagem to make another round of swings before removing the character.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/19 14:13:50
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/19 14:12:15
Subject: Re:Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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skchsan wrote:nekooni wrote:If "fight" meant the entire Fight phase, including Step 1, HtC would never work since you can't possibly fight "again" AND fulfill the requirement of " No unit can be selected to fght more than once in each Fight phase.", which is also part of Step 1.
Same thing happens when you proc Blood for the Blood God. You are told to go through the ENTIRE fight phase as per FAQ.Here, you are SPECIFICALLY told you can fight again, nulling the restriction in which you cannot fight more than once per fight phase. And the reason why fight again rules work is that when you go back to step 1, in order for you to have been in a fight so that you can fight AGAIN during the fight phase in the first place is if you either charged or were within 1" of the enemy. So, your comparison here is irrelevant to the point youre making and is actually proving the other side of your argument.
The problem with that argument is that by saying that you are specifically told you can fight again nulls the restriction about not fighting more than once, then you should have to accept that if you are told you can fight it would specifically nulls the other restrictions about fighting in step 1. It's inconsistent to say otherwise.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/19 14:16:44
Subject: Re:Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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doctortom wrote: skchsan wrote:nekooni wrote:If "fight" meant the entire Fight phase, including Step 1, HtC would never work since you can't possibly fight "again" AND fulfill the requirement of " No unit can be selected to fght more than once in each Fight phase.", which is also part of Step 1.
Same thing happens when you proc Blood for the Blood God. You are told to go through the ENTIRE fight phase as per FAQ.Here, you are SPECIFICALLY told you can fight again, nulling the restriction in which you cannot fight more than once per fight phase. And the reason why fight again rules work is that when you go back to step 1, in order for you to have been in a fight so that you can fight AGAIN during the fight phase in the first place is if you either charged or were within 1" of the enemy. So, your comparison here is irrelevant to the point youre making and is actually proving the other side of your argument.
The problem with that argument is that by saying that you are specifically told you can fight again nulls the restriction about not fighting more than once, then you should have to accept that if you are told you can fight it would specifically nulls the other restrictions about fighting in step 1. It's inconsistent to say otherwise.
No because the FAQ clarifies that when you fight again, you go through the ENTIRE fight phase. This includes step 1. It just happens so that the only way you can possibly fight again is if you've already fought, and if you've already fought by being eligible to fight in the first place.
From rulebook FAQ, pg 6
Q: If a rule states that you can choose a unit to ‘fight again’, what does this mean exactly?
A: Repeat the entire Fight phase for that unit – i.e., choose to fight with the unit, pile in with that unit, choose its target, choose its melee weapon, resolve its close combat attacks, then consolidate with it.
Unless the stratagem comes with a line that says "Do not select a unit to fight with", you have to go through step 1.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/19 14:22:58
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/19 14:32:24
Subject: Re:Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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skchsan wrote: doctortom wrote: skchsan wrote:nekooni wrote:If "fight" meant the entire Fight phase, including Step 1, HtC would never work since you can't possibly fight "again" AND fulfill the requirement of " No unit can be selected to fght more than once in each Fight phase.", which is also part of Step 1.
Same thing happens when you proc Blood for the Blood God. You are told to go through the ENTIRE fight phase as per FAQ.Here, you are SPECIFICALLY told you can fight again, nulling the restriction in which you cannot fight more than once per fight phase. And the reason why fight again rules work is that when you go back to step 1, in order for you to have been in a fight so that you can fight AGAIN during the fight phase in the first place is if you either charged or were within 1" of the enemy. So, your comparison here is irrelevant to the point youre making and is actually proving the other side of your argument.
The problem with that argument is that by saying that you are specifically told you can fight again nulls the restriction about not fighting more than once, then you should have to accept that if you are told you can fight it would specifically nulls the other restrictions about fighting in step 1. It's inconsistent to say otherwise.
No because the FAQ clarifies that when you fight again, you go through the ENTIRE fight phase. This includes step 1. It just happens so that the only way you can possibly fight again is if you've already fought, and if you've already fought by being eligible to fight in the first place.
From rulebook FAQ, pg 6
Q: If a rule states that you can choose a unit to ‘fight again’, what does this mean exactly?
A: Repeat the entire Fight phase for that unit – i.e., choose to fight with the unit, pile in with that unit, choose its target, choose its melee weapon, resolve its close combat attacks, then consolidate with it.
Unless the stratagem comes with a line that says "Do not select a unit to fight with", you have to go through step 1.
And step 1 says you can't fight if you've already fought.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/19 14:43:02
Subject: Re:Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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nekooni wrote:And step 1 says you can't fight if you've already fought.
Then I guess the whole fight again rule doesn't work if you refuse to understand that specific overrides general. You are SPECIFICALLY told you can fight again.
This means that if you wiped out your enemy unit and did not charge (i.e. the fight was brought to you or you started the fight phase locked in combat) and no longer have any units within 1", the unit cannot fight again via fight again stratagem as it no longer satisfies step 1 (Charged? No. Has enemy within 1"? No).
The more you divert and digress this into fight again rules, more your original argument become less convincing.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/07/19 15:55:03
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/19 20:31:50
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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Sound arguments on both sides. Thing is - if you are in the "can ignore step 1" camp.
Then you must accept the fact that I can shoot you in the face with hellblasters if they are next to a relic banner even if they are within 1" of enemy models AND I can shoot at whatever I want. I can shoot because it tells my I can shoot as if it was my shooting phase...completely skipping step 1.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/19 20:38:07
Subject: Re:Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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skchsan wrote:nekooni wrote:And step 1 says you can't fight if you've already fought.
Then I guess the whole fight again rule doesn't work if you refuse to understand that specific overrides general. You are SPECIFICALLY told you can fight again.
This means that if you wiped out your enemy unit and did not charge (i.e. the fight was brought to you or you started the fight phase locked in combat) and no longer have any units within 1", the unit cannot fight again via fight again stratagem as it no longer satisfies step 1 (Charged? No. Has enemy within 1"? No).
The more you divert and digress this into fight again rules, more your original argument become less convincing.
Exactly. Therefore Step 1 isn't considered, because it is overridden by the Stratagem. That's my whole point - the Stratagem must override Step 1 so it actually does something. This - to me - has to be true for BOTH Stratagems, as it's inconsistent otherwise. Automatically Appended Next Post: Xenomancers wrote:Sound arguments on both sides. Thing is - if you are in the "can ignore step 1" camp.
Then you must accept the fact that I can shoot you in the face with hellblasters if they are next to a relic banner even if they are within 1" of enemy models AND I can shoot at whatever I want. I can shoot because it tells my I can shoot as if it was my shooting phase...completely skipping step 1.
I'm fine with that, too.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/19 20:41:07
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/19 21:40:46
Subject: Re:Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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nekooni wrote:Exactly. Therefore Step 1 isn't considered, because it is overridden by the Stratagem. That's my whole point - the Stratagem must override Step 1 so it actually does something. This - to me - has to be true for BOTH Stratagems, as it's inconsistent otherwise.
Case 1: the character is not within 1" of an enemy unit when it is slain
-you are out of range to fight, so you shoot
Case 2: the character is within" of an enemy unit when it is slain
-you are too close to shoot unless it is with a pistol. so you fight.
In both cases the stratagem is doing something. I don't see why you think the stratagem breaks if it's played as written.
Can you share us your logical train of thought in bullet point so that we could understand why you think the way you think?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/19 21:47:58
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/19 22:03:23
Subject: Re:Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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skchsan wrote:nekooni wrote:Exactly. Therefore Step 1 isn't considered, because it is overridden by the Stratagem. That's my whole point - the Stratagem must override Step 1 so it actually does something. This - to me - has to be true for BOTH Stratagems, as it's inconsistent otherwise.
Case 1: the character is not within 1" of an enemy unit when it is slain
-you are out of range to fight, so you shoot
Case 2: the character is within" of an enemy unit when it is slain
-you are too close to shoot unless it is with a pistol. so you fight.
In both cases the stratagem is doing something. I don't see why you think the stratagem breaks if it's played as written.
Can you share us your logical train of thought in bullet point so that we could understand why you think the way you think?
I'm pretty sure the fight twice Stratagems don't have a shooting component. And if those get to ignore the restrictions of step one, then other similar stratagems do too, at least if you want it to be consistent.
In short my argument is that if you're a valid target for a Stratagem that tells you you're allowed to fight that unit, this overrides the limitations of step 1.because you've been told this unit gets to fight.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/19 22:07:35
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/19 22:43:30
Subject: Re:Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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skchsan wrote:nekooni wrote:Exactly. Therefore Step 1 isn't considered, because it is overridden by the Stratagem. That's my whole point - the Stratagem must override Step 1 so it actually does something. This - to me - has to be true for BOTH Stratagems, as it's inconsistent otherwise.
Case 1: the character is not within 1" of an enemy unit when it is slain
-you are out of range to fight, so you shoot
Case 2: the character is within" of an enemy unit when it is slain
-you are too close to shoot unless it is with a pistol. so you fight.
In both cases the stratagem is doing something. I don't see why you think the stratagem breaks if it's played as written.
Can you share us your logical train of thought in bullet point so that we could understand why you think the way you think?
100% this. It’s a colloquially-worded Stratagem and the meaning is clear. If you have to delve into ‘overriding Step 1’ etc. to make something fit you’ve probably gone too far.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/19 22:43:50
Subject: Re:Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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nekooni wrote: skchsan wrote:nekooni wrote:Exactly. Therefore Step 1 isn't considered, because it is overridden by the Stratagem. That's my whole point - the Stratagem must override Step 1 so it actually does something. This - to me - has to be true for BOTH Stratagems, as it's inconsistent otherwise.
Case 1: the character is not within 1" of an enemy unit when it is slain
-you are out of range to fight, so you shoot
Case 2: the character is within" of an enemy unit when it is slain
-you are too close to shoot unless it is with a pistol. so you fight.
In both cases the stratagem is doing something. I don't see why you think the stratagem breaks if it's played as written.
Can you share us your logical train of thought in bullet point so that we could understand why you think the way you think?
I'm pretty sure the fight twice Stratagems don't have a shooting component. And if those get to ignore the restrictions of step one, then other similar stratagems do too, at least if you want it to be consistent.
In short my argument is that if you're a valid target for a Stratagem that tells you you're allowed to fight that unit, this overrides the limitations of step 1.because you've been told this unit gets to fight.
And it's been brought to light for you countless times, it has been clarified by GW via FAQ that "fighting" is going through all steps of the fight phase, despite being selected to fight or fight twice or fight again via abilites or stratagems, you need to go through step 1 and select them again and check for qualifying conditions for being able to fight.
The fact that you think the stratagem allows units with enemy units within 1" to shoot normally wih all guns just goes to show you're willing to bend all core mechanics just to make the rule work as you say it does..
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/19 22:47:03
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/19 22:51:47
Subject: Re:Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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skchsan wrote:nekooni wrote: skchsan wrote:nekooni wrote:Exactly. Therefore Step 1 isn't considered, because it is overridden by the Stratagem. That's my whole point - the Stratagem must override Step 1 so it actually does something. This - to me - has to be true for BOTH Stratagems, as it's inconsistent otherwise.
Case 1: the character is not within 1" of an enemy unit when it is slain
-you are out of range to fight, so you shoot
Case 2: the character is within" of an enemy unit when it is slain
-you are too close to shoot unless it is with a pistol. so you fight.
In both cases the stratagem is doing something. I don't see why you think the stratagem breaks if it's played as written.
Can you share us your logical train of thought in bullet point so that we could understand why you think the way you think?
I'm pretty sure the fight twice Stratagems don't have a shooting component. And if those get to ignore the restrictions of step one, then other similar stratagems do too, at least if you want it to be consistent.
In short my argument is that if you're a valid target for a Stratagem that tells you you're allowed to fight that unit, this overrides the limitations of step 1.because you've been told this unit gets to fight.
And it's been brought to light for you countless times, it has been clarified by GW via FAQ that "fighting" is going through all steps of the fight phase, despite being selected to fight or fight twice or fight again via abilites or stratagems, you need to go through step 1 and select them again and check for qualifying conditions for being able to fight.
The fact that you think the stratagem allows units with enemy units within 1" to shoot normally wih all guns just goes to show you're willing to bend all core mechanics just to make the rule work as you say it does..
So if you have to go through that again, how do you resolve Honour the Chapter successfully within the rules given? By ignoring the qualifying conditions of step 1, or by applying them?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/19 22:58:06
Subject: Re:Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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nekooni wrote:So if you have to go through that again, how do you resolve Honour the Chapter successfully within the rules given? By ignoring the qualifying conditions of step 1, or by applying them?
HtC lets you override the specific number of times a unit can fight in a given phase. It doesn't give you permissio. to bypass the entire step. Fight [only once] turns into [one more time].
OiDDDE overrides the specific order in which units take turn, much like counter offensi e stratagem to interrupt normal sequence. In OiDDDE, A player's [turn is played out in its entirety] to a player's [turn can be interrupted when he slays an enemy charcter].
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/19 23:17:32
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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So if the slain character has already fought that turn it won't be able to fight through OIDDDE?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/19 23:42:38
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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nekooni wrote:So if the slain character has already fought that turn it won't be able to fight through OIDDDE?
No as the stratagem doesnt give you provisions to override the general rule for only being able to fight once per fight phase.
If he dies in combat after swinging during any players' fight phase, you cant use the stratagem to swing again before removing him from play.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/19 23:44:28
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/20 02:11:28
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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skchsan wrote:nekooni wrote:So if the slain character has already fought that turn it won't be able to fight through OIDDDE?
No as the stratagem doesnt give you provisions to override the general rule for only being able to fight once per fight phase.
If he dies in combat after swinging during any players' fight phase, you cant use the stratagem to swing again before removing him from play.
Beyond your other nonsense wrong, the Strat generates a "your" Fight Phase for the unit to fight in (outside of the your Fight phase you may have already been in, or it is your Fight Phase during the enemy Fight phase), so fighting twice is absolutely a possibility.
On top of that, You yourself have stated(to nekooni) that specific overrides general: the Character under OIDDDE has specific allowance to fight as if it were your fight phase. You are specifically told the character can fight.
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This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/20 02:11:49
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Norn Queen
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Xenomancers wrote:Sound arguments on both sides. Thing is - if you are in the "can ignore step 1" camp.
Then you must accept the fact that I can shoot you in the face with hellblasters if they are next to a relic banner even if they are within 1" of enemy models AND I can shoot at whatever I want. I can shoot because it tells my I can shoot as if it was my shooting phase...completely skipping step 1.
Except its obvious rai that the thing that determines if you can shoot is not step 1 but step 2. Which weapon you choose to shoot with. Granted, thats not raw. But then, raw, you can never shoot pistols within 1" or assault weapons after advancing either.
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These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/20 02:37:01
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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Xenomancers wrote:Sound arguments on both sides. Thing is - if you are in the "can ignore step 1" camp.
Then you must accept the fact that I can shoot you in the face with hellblasters if they are next to a relic banner even if they are within 1" of enemy models AND I can shoot at whatever I want. I can shoot because it tells my I can shoot as if it was my shooting phase...completely skipping step 1.
Yes; I would absolutely allow the hellblaster to "shoot me in the face" upon death within range and after rolling sufficiently high to do so. Relic banner doesn't change anything other than +1 to proc, so I am not sure why you specified relic banner vs any f-ing ancient.
Banners require Range and a roll. OIDDDE requires CP expenditure. yes; I would/will allow both to be used for whichever attacks(which then require hit and wound rolls).
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This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/20 03:02:44
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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Kommissar Kel wrote: skchsan wrote:nekooni wrote:So if the slain character has already fought that turn it won't be able to fight through OIDDDE?
No as the stratagem doesnt give you provisions to override the general rule for only being able to fight once per fight phase.
If he dies in combat after swinging during any players' fight phase, you cant use the stratagem to swing again before removing him from play.
Beyond your other nonsense wrong, the Strat generates a "your" Fight Phase for the unit to fight in (outside of the your Fight phase you may have already been in, or it is your Fight Phase during the enemy Fight phase), so fighting twice is absolutely a possibility.
On top of that, You yourself have stated(to nekooni) that specific overrides general: the Character under OIDDDE has specific allowance to fight as if it were your fight phase. You are specifically told the character can fight.
Except the fact that GW is clear on what constitutes "fight" and that it encompasses al7l steps of a fight phase. So whatever and however you play at your own local meta thats RAI and not RAW. There's no issue with playing the game RAI as the game hinges upon the "most important rule" bir as RAW, there's nothing "nonsensical" about what I have said in this thread. As I have told you before, please adhere to the tenets of this forum. This isn't where you try to belittle people for trying to explain what the rule says literally.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/20 07:02:45
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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skchsan wrote:nekooni wrote:So if the slain character has already fought that turn it won't be able to fight through OIDDDE?
No as the stratagem doesnt give you provisions to override the general rule for only being able to fight once per fight phase.
If he dies in combat after swinging during any players' fight phase, you cant use the stratagem to swing again before removing him from play.
Sorry, but the Stratagem tells you the opposite. It grants an out-of-sequence chance to Fight, and you absolutely could fight even if you have fought once before you dies.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/20 07:20:30
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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JohnnyHell wrote: skchsan wrote:nekooni wrote:So if the slain character has already fought that turn it won't be able to fight through OIDDDE?
No as the stratagem doesnt give you provisions to override the general rule for only being able to fight once per fight phase.
If he dies in combat after swinging during any players' fight phase, you cant use the stratagem to swing again before removing him from play.
Sorry, but the Stratagem tells you the opposite. It grants an out-of-sequence chance to Fight, and you absolutely could fight even if you have fought once before you dies.
That was my understanding, too - and since these stratagems tell me I can fight, I get to fight even if I don't fulfill all the requirements in step 1.which basically means I ignore that step.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/20 08:25:51
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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nekooni wrote: JohnnyHell wrote: skchsan wrote:nekooni wrote:So if the slain character has already fought that turn it won't be able to fight through OIDDDE?
No as the stratagem doesnt give you provisions to override the general rule for only being able to fight once per fight phase.
If he dies in combat after swinging during any players' fight phase, you cant use the stratagem to swing again before removing him from play.
Sorry, but the Stratagem tells you the opposite. It grants an out-of-sequence chance to Fight, and you absolutely could fight even if you have fought once before you dies.
That was my understanding, too - and since these stratagems tell me I can fight, I get to fight even if I don't fulfill all the requirements in step 1.which basically means I ignore that step.
It doesn’t permit you to ignore other rules, so you can’t ignore steps unless clearly stated you can.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/20 09:53:08
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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JohnnyHell wrote:nekooni wrote: JohnnyHell wrote: skchsan wrote:nekooni wrote:So if the slain character has already fought that turn it won't be able to fight through OIDDDE?
No as the stratagem doesnt give you provisions to override the general rule for only being able to fight once per fight phase.
If he dies in combat after swinging during any players' fight phase, you cant use the stratagem to swing again before removing him from play.
Sorry, but the Stratagem tells you the opposite. It grants an out-of-sequence chance to Fight, and you absolutely could fight even if you have fought once before you dies.
That was my understanding, too - and since these stratagems tell me I can fight, I get to fight even if I don't fulfill all the requirements in step 1.which basically means I ignore that step.
It doesn’t permit you to ignore other rules, so you can’t ignore steps unless clearly stated you can.
Step 1 says you can't fight twice, and you can only fight if within 1'' or if you've charged this turn.
OIDDDE says "you can fight", so does the Banner, so does HtC. Only HtC includes an "again" clause.
If you can ignore the "can't fight twice" part for OIDDDE, why can't I ignore the range requirement, too? That honestly doesn't make any sense to me - did I misread something you wrote?
I mean I'm not saying you get to strike at a unit 10 inches away, obviously (since that's not part of step 1 anyway), but that you could consolidate into a unit that's 3 inches away and strike at that. Feels good from a "style" perspective and is consistent across OIDDDE, HtC and Banners.
that being said I'd say this clearly can be interpreted in multiple ways and that's always a good candidate for an FAQ entry.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/20 10:50:53
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/07/20 11:05:38
Subject: Can you 'fight when you die' with a space marine character when it isn't in combat
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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skchsan wrote: Kommissar Kel wrote: skchsan wrote:nekooni wrote:So if the slain character has already fought that turn it won't be able to fight through OIDDDE?
No as the stratagem doesnt give you provisions to override the general rule for only being able to fight once per fight phase.
If he dies in combat after swinging during any players' fight phase, you cant use the stratagem to swing again before removing him from play.
Beyond your other nonsense wrong, the Strat generates a "your" Fight Phase for the unit to fight in (outside of the your Fight phase you may have already been in, or it is your Fight Phase during the enemy Fight phase), so fighting twice is absolutely a possibility.
On top of that, You yourself have stated(to nekooni) that specific overrides general: the Character under OIDDDE has specific allowance to fight as if it were your fight phase. You are specifically told the character can fight.
Except the fact that GW is clear on what constitutes "fight" and that it encompasses al7l steps of a fight phase. So whatever and however you play at your own local meta thats RAI and not RAW. There's no issue with playing the game RAI as the game hinges upon the "most important rule" bir as RAW, there's nothing "nonsensical" about what I have said in this thread. As I have told you before, please adhere to the tenets of this forum. This isn't where you try to belittle people for trying to explain what the rule says literally.
Well, you are half right; GW is clear on what constitutes a fight.
It just isn't all steps. It is 2-6. You never go back to 1 in the Fight phase. You use the rules in 1 to move from step 6 to the next unit's step 2.
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This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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