ATC Drama

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**niv-mizzet**

Lorek wrote:
Lots of armchair TOs in this thread.

If you're really upset with the way these tournaments are run, run your own and follow these guidelines. TOs typically run these events without being paid, with minimal staffing and in addition to a full-time job. There's no formal structure for this overall (other than ITC), and it's awfully difficult to prove cheating in many instances.

As has been brought up before, it's often been difficult to spot cheating when it happens in a game if you're the opponent. There's also often no proof that cheating happened; the best you can do is see if you can get a judge to babysit the rest of your game (which sucks for everyone involved).

I'm aware this doesn't cover things like illegal lists. Again, if you don't like the way this is run, create your own tournament. The tournament organizers lay out these rules in advance, and if you don't like them, don't attend the tournament. They are the ones putting all the time and effort into running these, and in the end the only way you can really protest is by not going. The other players who do attend are voting with their attendance as well, and as long as these tournaments are well-attended, I don't foresee any changes like this.

Good points that I agree with, but criticism can be a helpful tool, so I don’t agree with the sentiment of “run your own or stay silent.”

**Reecius**

Drama aside, we (Team Zero Comp) had a great time at ATC hanging out with friends and playing games. There were some hiccups but that did not ruin our experience in any way. Thanks to Shane and his crew for running a great event and to all of our very fun opponents, even the ones that whipped my behind, lol!

**Red Corsair**

Sad to hear painting standards are continuing to slide. The entire argument about meta shifts is idiotic by the way. Your basically admitting to having better quality models painted, but because you would rather score higher on battle points you chose to show up with sub standard models, this is the definition of WAAC gaming. Manage your time better and get things painted, or heaven forbid you play with a unit choice that's not currently in the top tier lol.

**Polonius**

niv-mizzet wrote:
Lorek wrote:
Lots of armchair TOs in this thread.

If you're really upset with the way these tournaments are run, run your own and follow these guidelines. TOs typically run these events without being paid, with minimal staffing and in addition to a full-time job. There's no formal structure for this overall (other than ITC), and it's awfully difficult to prove cheating in many instances.

As has been brought up before, it's often been difficult to spot cheating when it happens in a game if you're the opponent. There's also often no proof that cheating happened; the best you can do is see if you can get a judge to babysit the rest of your game (which sucks for everyone involved).

I'm aware this doesn't cover things like illegal lists. Again, if you don't like the way this is run, create your own tournament. The tournament organizers lay out these rules in advance, and if you don't like them, don't attend the tournament. They are the ones putting all the time and effort into running these, and in the end the only way you can really protest is by not going. The other players who do attend are voting with their attendance as well, and as long as these tournaments are well-attended, I don't foresee any changes like this.

Good points that I agree with, but criticism can be a helpful tool, so I don’t agree with the sentiment of “run your own or stay silent.”

I think Lorek is understating his point, as a gentleman does.

All lot of the criticism in this thread is quite misguided. Most people don’t want super strict officials, because most improperly played 40k is unintentional. Even slow play is very tough to tease out from deliberate play.

Rules are important, but they are not important in and of themselves. At least, not in a tournament. What’s important is what the rules are designed to do: have a reasonabley fair game. You need to balance being fair with understanding that mistakes happen, even absent intent to cheat.

40k is a complicated game. Between list building and even three games, even a savvy player is likely to make errors.

**ChainswordHeretic**

Lots of armchair TOs in this thread.

If you're really upset with the way these tournaments are run, run your own and follow these guidelines. TOs typically run these events without being paid, with minimal staffing and in addition to a full-time job. There's no formal structure for this overall (other than ITC), and it's awfully difficult to prove cheating in many instances.

As has been brought up before, it's often been difficult to spot cheating when it happens in a game if you're the opponent. There's also often no proof that cheating happened; the best you can do is see if you can get a judge to babysit the rest of your game (which sucks for everyone involved).

I'm aware this doesn't cover things like illegal lists. Again, if you don't like the way this is run, create your own tournament. The tournament organizers lay out these rules in advance, and if you don't like them, don't attend the tournament. They are the ones putting all the time and effort into running these, and in the end the only way you can really protest is by not going. The other players who do attend are voting with their attendance as well, and as long as these tournaments are well-attended, I don't foresee any changes like this.

That's a pretty crap attitude. it's to hard to run a tournament where cheaters are dealt with, or the organizers actually enforced their own rules, so just don't go or start your own!?! cool. good to know accountability should not be expected.

Drama aside, we (Team Zero Comp) had a great time at ATC hanging out with friends and playing games. There were some hiccups but that did not ruin our experience in any way. Thanks to Shane and his crew for running a great event and to all of our very fun opponents, even the ones that whipped my behind, lol

So who cares about the people that had to play this team and did not have fun? Yeah some people had fun that is what is supposed to happen. When you get the right order at McDonalds do you go inside and give the manager a pat on the back? That is not what this thread is about.

I am paying with my wallet and have stopped going to the big events or if I do I play the smaller games. I am not the only one, and there will be a lot more, if TO's don't start caring about the attendants that deserve it.

**NecronLord3**

Quote from PJ pants:

Alan Bajramovic AKA "PJ Pants" playing for team "Has Been's" at the ATC declined to talk about anything through a video, and wishes not be seen as an instigator and does not take that stance. There was a brief confrontation with Alan and Aaron Aelong involving a verbal disagreement and display of frustration and alleged unsportsmanlike conduct. He did however give me permission to quote him from our earlier conversation and here was his take:

"The truth is Shane was going to Ban then after round 3[Team Happy] against Kamikazes already cause there was issues every round with only their team. But I guess Shane thought if they loose he would not have to deal with it and then they where in contention to win the whole thing again in 3rd the last round so he finally just knew he had to DQ them and wrapped it around some bs about models. I had nothing to do with the decision I think it was excessive for sure. I think it was not timed well and not carried out the right way. The penalties should have been clear and transparent right when infractions happened not the next day and not about models. Half the people there have converted weird models and even though I made fun of Aaron's rough riders I would never complain about them or get anyone kicked from an event."

"My only issue with Happy was the fact that 2 games went to only turn 4 and 1 my game with Aaron went to 3 and it was clear he intended this to happen
He played well
He did not cheat
His list was SOLID"

"I know Wobbly Modelers and Kamikazies teams had much larger issues that I was NOT present for so I dont want to comment but if what I heard is true then I understand why Kelsey and 12 teams threatened to leave if action was not taken."

At Alan's suggestion I will reach out to Kelsey from Wobbly Modeler's Frankie from Frontline Gaming Team Zero Comp, or Tony Malave / Mitch Tucker from Kamikazies as well.
#Competetive40K #40K #ATC

**1knightstands**

I think this discussion needs to be toned down a touch. I understand people are frustrated at this incident but it’s no excuse to fly of the handle at people who share the same interests and hobbies as you. I think one of the big issues is that the issue of cheating is being muddied by people using the incident as a platform to rail against other issues which are objectively not cheating. I also think there is a failure to distinguish between the severity of different infractions. TO’s are doing a good job in difficult circumstances and I’m sure discussions are under way to curb some of the issues we are seeing. I also think there is a failure to understand that people have different expectations of the hobby and that’s okay.

**ChainswordHeretic**

TO’s are doing a good job in difficult circumstances and I’m sure discussions are under way to curb some of the issues we are seeing.

The person quoted above is a major tournament player, played the team in question, and does not think the TO did a good job.

my game with Aaron went to 3 and it was clear he intended this to happen
He played well

How is that not considered cheating?

Shane thought if they loose he would not have to deal with it

If that is true it is complete bull. how many people had a bad experience playing this jerk because the TO did not want to do something about it. This is exactly what people have a problem with.

**bananathug**

I guess GW isn't the only one that needs to tighten its rules. Which sucks because I usually attend tournaments just to have some fun, play against the newest hotness and get my marine butt kicked...

If there is a painting/modeling requirement it needs to be enforced and not just against people that you don't know. Penalties for violating the rules need to be laid out. "Models not up to a table top standard or with significant conversions/counts as will be removed from the battlefield at the sole discretion of the TO. If there is any doubt please submit pics before the start of the event."

As much as I hate the idea of them chess clocks seem to be a necessary evil. There is little reason for "pros" to have a game that only goes to turn 3. Completing turn 4 should be a req for high level play and the only way it seems that can be accomplished without arbitrarily penalizing the opponent of the guy slow playing is through chess clocks or having an official at every table.

Same with list construction. Any games played with an illegal list should result in a major victory of the opponent and going forward the illegal components of the list will just be removed from the list. No substitutions or changes possible.

In game rules violations (applying wrong rules, cheating) IF REPORTED TO A TO shall result in a warning and point deduction if deemed intentional. A second offense REPORTED TO A TO shall result in a DQ of that player. If the infraction is not reported DURING THE GAME then no penalty will be enforced but a TO will monitor that players next game and any cheating will be grounds for a DQ (or your opponent will be notified you have been warned and encouraged to consult with a TO if they observe any dodgy [for the brits] behavior)

It's hard to make up rules on the spot and the TOs seemed to be in a bad position. But they created that situation by trying to apply gentleman's agreements to a competitive setting. With hard and fast rules set-up BEFORE the event with punishments laid out it makes their job (which is hard as hell and they must be applauded for their dedication to this hobby which we all enjoy) that much harder.

I say all of this as an outsider who was no where near the tourney but would love to attend an event like this in the future. I feel at a team event this would be easier as the stigma of calling the TO seems lessened when you can feel you are doing it for your team rather than just being TFG. Maybe it's something that you could tell your captain about and they can be tasked with dealing with the TOs, like in most organized team sports?

For the more "open" tournaments (BAO, LVO, SoCAL open, whatever passes for tournaments for you east coast troglodytes) maybe these rules should be enforced day 2 at the undefeated tables (list review those with a chance to win, take a look at their armies and put chess clocks on the table). So as to not ruin fun for the filthy amateurs who just show up to these things for fun?

**jifel**

There have been a ton of rumors and misinformation surrounding what was actually done and said this past weekend in relation to the team that was removed from our 40k event. Following is our official statement regarding the issue. We hope that you will read it completely and help share the facts and not the rumors.

July 16th, 2018
This press release is in regards to Team Happy being asked to leave this year's ATC. Any article, podcast, blog, etc. that states otherwise is misinformed and inaccurate in their information and should be disregarded.

The ATC has clearly stated policies on our website and mission pack. It is our responsibility to follow these guidelines in fairness to all players involved. The statements below reflect that we did just that. We also want to take this opportunity to say that it was made obvious to us this year that our slow play, some model policies and our penalty system are in need of a revision. Those revisions are already in the works and in future years will be much stricter.

What happened at the ATC 2018 event concerning Team Happy:

After Round 3 a player with an illegal model was brought to our attention.
According to our policies we issued the player in question a retroactive Round 1 warning and a current round 2 game loss. The model issue had been corrected after game 2 and was not used in round 3 so there was no need for any action in regards to that model in round 3.
As to the question of "Why was a specific points penalty/loss not announced immediately?" Our response is that we had an event already running late and a room full of players who continued to bombard us with their concerns, giving us no chance to think it through clearly. We needed and wanted to make sure that we had the time and clarity to make the right penalty that would have an actual impact on the team penalized and we knew that anything less than a complete removal of the team (at that time) was not going to affect the next round pairings, so we kept the event moving and applied the penalty during rd 3 once we had a few mins to take action.

Also, during round 3 another player on the team had an issue with his opponent which led to a situation with our head judge. Both players were running on high emotions and attitudes were in poor form. The original rumor regarding what had actually happened was found to be false and grossly over-exaggerated on the floor. The truth of the matter was confirmed by our head judge. The over exaggeration that was sweeping the room was that the player had told our head judge to go F*** himself, when what was truly said was "I'm not going to do that" (in regards to the judge's suggestion to resolve the controversial game issue at hand). The issue was resolved by the players once the TO's came on the scene and as per our policy, a warning was issued to the player (first warning to that player) and team captain. We want to be clear that had the player actually said that to any of our staff, they would have been immediately ejected and banned from the event. We have a zero tolerance policy for such behavior and we immediately went into a 30 minute conversation with the team captain with full intention of removing the player from our event. Once the truth was discovered, the warning was issued instead of player removal.

During the lunch break (after game 3) we had a very long meeting with the team captain, Tony. An agreement (initiated by the captain) was made that if there were any other issues with anyone on the team, that the team would withdraw from the event. We did not disclose this agreement to the rest of the event players at that time but promised the other captains that we would reveal our decision and intentions in their entirety at the end of the event (which we have just done).
As another layer of enforcement and to be proactive, we also posted our head judge as a permanent judge at the team's tables for the rest of their event.

After round 4 there were questions of slow play brought against the team.
This was reviewed and checked against our slow play policies/guidelines.
After review, all game lengths had met our requirements (minimum 4 turns completed), there was no pattern of games not meeting the required number of rounds and our judges had not seen proof of any "slow play tactics" during the round. Again, we understand that our slow play policy is in need of revision.

After round 5 there was a model conversion infraction brought to our attention.
We addressed the issue and ultimately the team was asked to leave our event, with no games played in the final round.
The team did not argue to try and stay in the event, they were courteous to take our request and in order to not create more delays, they waited until the final round was underway to come and discuss all of the details. The team left after a very reasonable and respectful conversation with our staff and TO's and there were no confrontations of any kind.

We want the community to know that we do not take these situations lightly. What we do at the ATC sets a precedent and a certain standard. A decision like this is no small thing, and no TO ever wants to have to eject someone from their event, let alone five players. We always want to make our decisions with a clear head, in accordance with our policies and guidelines, with integrity and fairness to all players involved.

We also want to make it very clear that mob mentality and threats of not coming back to our event were absolutely not a factor in our decision, in fact they hindered us from making the decision sooner as it added an entire other layer of issues to our already full plate. We understand that players were upset; they had every right to be, especially if what was being said around the room was true. We were extremely upset as well and if the situation was what it had been rumored, then we would have removed players immediately, but by taking the time to go to every player directly involved on both sides and getting the facts, and then taking it all and putting it all together, we were able to do our job correctly, clearly and fairly, without anger and influence from outside sources.

In the end, we learn every year what we could have done better, where we failed and where we excelled, we listen to our players input and we adjust from there.
That's the best we can do, for you, for us and for the community.

We are ready to move forward to better days, higher player standards and the best ATC event ever in 2019 and we hope that you will move forward with us!

Thank you,

- Shane, Chris and the ATC staff

This is ATC's official statement on the events this weekend. Take from it what you will.

**1knightstands**

ChainswordHeretic wrote:
TO’s are doing a good job in difficult circumstances and I’m sure discussions are under way to curb some of the issues we are seeing.

The person quoted above is a major tournament player, played the team in question, and does not think the TO did a good job.

my game with Aaron went to 3 and it was clear he intended this to happen
He played well

How is that not considered cheating?

Shane thought if they loose he would not have to deal with it

If that is true it is complete bull. how many people had a bad experience playing this jerk because the TO did not want to do something about it. This is exactly what people have a problem with.

1. It’s a quote of a quote so i think it’s a bit dangerous taking it as gospel.
2. I wasn’t really referencing that particular incident however until there is specific rules against slow play it’s poor sportsmanship not cheating which limitis the TOs ability to respond
3. The TO was under inordinate pressure and this wasn’t the only thing occupying his mind. Hindsights 20/20 no one has the complete facts of the case. Could of it be handled better, maybe but you don’t know what information the TO had when making the decision and I’m sure they made the decision they though was in the best interest of all players and the hobby.

**DarknessEternal**

Lorek wrote:
. TOs typically run these events without being paid,

No, they are paid a great deal. Where do you think the entry fees go?

Don't let them fool you with some martyr's cries. People run tournaments of this size to make money. That is the only reason.

**Farseer_V2**

DarknessEternal wrote:
Lorek wrote:
. TOs typically run these events without being paid,

No, they are paid a great deal. Where do you think the entry fees go?

Venue and prize support generally.

**DarknessEternal**

Farseer_V2 wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:
Lorek wrote:
. TOs typically run these events without being paid,

No, they are paid a great deal. Where do you think the entry fees go?

Venue and prize support generally.

Don't be so naive.

**Farseer_V2**

DarknessEternal wrote:
Farseer_V2 wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:
Lorek wrote:
. TOs typically run these events without being paid,

No, they are paid a great deal. Where do you think the entry fees go?

Venue and prize support generally.

Don't be so naive.

I'm not, I run a mid-sized event and I know where my entry fees go. To further clarify, I'm not the only organizer I know who is in this same boat. My event usually breaks even (especially given the cost to update terrain and mats yearly).

**meatybtz**

It must be the era but 40k, 8th especially, is damned far from complicated.

Hell, old adeptus titanicus was variable more complicated than 40k. But the billion of stupid rules duplications isn't helping folks confusion, neither are bubbles, bubbles everywhere. Players at tournaments in 3rd didn't find things very confusing or complicated. I was there. Same for 2nd, whose this and card tokens of doom would probably fry the modern 40k player's mind to track them all. Most older war games were complicated token festivals.

I can't take seriously the idea of modern 40k as complicated. Unnecessarily confusing due to rules duplications, yes. But it isn't complex anymore.

I don't know how today's players would handle unlimbering for artillery, following fire, heroic melee combat, jam dice, and tables, tables galore! I mean they couldn't handle things like templates, cover, scatter dice, tables, and vehicle fields of fire listed in degrees, instead of Death Blossom mode for vehicles.

So, not complicated, but naff rules and confusing crap.

ChainswordHeretic wrote:
Lots of armchair TOs in this thread.

If you're really upset with the way these tournaments are run, run your own and follow these guidelines. TOs typically run these events without being paid, with minimal staffing and in addition to a full-time job. There's no formal structure for this overall (other than ITC), and it's awfully difficult to prove cheating in many instances.

As has been brought up before, it's often been difficult to spot cheating when it happens in a game if you're the opponent. There's also often no proof that cheating happened; the best you can do is see if you can get a judge to babysit the rest of your game (which sucks for everyone involved).

I'm aware this doesn't cover things like illegal lists. Again, if you don't like the way this is run, create your own tournament. The tournament organizers lay out these rules in advance, and if you don't like them, don't attend the tournament. They are the ones putting all the time and effort into running these, and in the end the only way you can really protest is by not going. The other players who do attend are voting with their attendance as well, and as long as these tournaments are well-attended, I don't foresee any changes like this.

That's a pretty crap attitude. it's to hard to run a tournament where cheaters are dealt with, or the organizers actually enforced their own rules, so just don't go or start your own!?! cool. good to know accountability should not be expected.

Drama aside, we (Team Zero Comp) had a great time at ATC hanging out with friends and playing games. There were some hiccups but that did not ruin our experience in any way. Thanks to Shane and his crew for running a great event and to all of our very fun opponents, even the ones that whipped my behind, lol

So who cares about the people that had to play this team and did not have fun? Yeah some people had fun that is what is supposed to happen. When you get the right order at McDonalds do you go inside and give the manager a pat on the back? That is not what this thread is about.

I am paying with my wallet and have stopped going to the big events or if I do I play the smaller games. I am not the only one, and there will be a lot more, if TO's don't start caring about the attendants that deserve it.

**quickfuze**

DarknessEternal wrote:
Farseer_V2 wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:
Lorek wrote:
. TOs typically run these events without being paid,

No, they are paid a great deal. Where do you think the entry fees go?

Venue and prize support generally.

Don't be so naive.

I agree, $28K in entry fees did not go to just prize support and the Venue

**Farseer_V2**

quickfuze wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:
Farseer_V2 wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:
Lorek wrote:
. TOs typically run these events without being paid,

No, they are paid a great deal. Where do you think the entry fees go?

Venue and prize support generally.

Don't be so naive.

I agree, $28K in entry fees did not go to just prize support and the Venue

Venue includes terrain costs, meals for staff (in most cases and possibly lodging), and there are other assorted costs. That said I'm not here to prove the point, think what you like. You clearly know better than me and know that tournament organizers are in it to line their pockets.

**Don Savik**

I agree with the no tolerance policy. You can't remove them from a venue because it's a 'social event'? People are they to play their opponent, you shouldn't be having a chat with your friend while he's playing. Its not a convention, its a tournament.

And I don't agree with the 'well shut up or make your own tournament' way of thinking either. Nobody anywhere in the history of forever is immune to criticism, and if so many people outside the issue can see the problems with it, then it really REALLY needs fixing.

"but its hard to TO" "but they don't get paid much" "but its just a game" "but you're an armchair ____" Is a lot of talk that really makes people completely uninterested in joining the tournament scene if this is how the people responsible are talking like.

edit: not saying anyone here is responsible, im just saying its not putting faith in people's minds that tournaments are even a good idea

**meatybtz**

Zero tolerance was common going all the way back to before there were tournaments in the US and Games Days was it. Games Day was zero tolerance. Hell my first tournament I almost caught a perma-ban for voicing that I thought the official measurements that decided the win loss on game three were off. Wasn't loud about it but was discussing it with my opponent who was of a similar mind to me and mostly didn't care win or lose because it was a damn well fought game but the TO overheard us and came down on me like a ton of bricks. No bitching rule in play, the Upire's judgment was not open to discussion or question. The Ump was always right,even when he was wrong, just as in a sports game. Argue with the umpire and he will toss you out of the game.

Don Savik wrote:
I agree with the no tolerance policy. You can't remove them from a venue because it's a 'social event'? People are they to play their opponent, you shouldn't be having a chat with your friend while he's playing. Its not a convention, its a tournament.

And I don't agree with the 'well shut up or make your own tournament' way of thinking either. Nobody anywhere in the history of forever is immune to criticism, and if so many people outside the issue can see the problems with it, then it really REALLY needs fixing.

"but its hard to TO" "but they don't get paid much" "but its just a game" "but you're an armchair ____" Is a lot of talk that really makes people completely uninterested in joining the tournament scene if this is how the people responsible are talking like.

**Byte**

Lorek wrote:
The tournament organizers lay out these rules in advance, and if you don't like them, don't attend the tournament.

I've never seen any repercussions listed out for cheating listed in any tourney packs or primers... ever. Expectations aren't managed. No where has it/they said "don't cheat". RAW right?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Don Savik wrote:I agree with the no tolerance policy. You can't remove them from a venue because it's a 'social event'? People are they to play their opponent, you shouldn't be having a chat with your friend while he's playing. Its not a convention, its a tournament.

And I don't agree with the 'well shut up or make your own tournament' way of thinking either. Nobody anywhere in the history of forever is immune to criticism, and if so many people outside the issue can see the problems with it, then it really REALLY needs fixing.

"but its hard to TO" "but they don't get paid much" "but its just a game" "but you're an armchair ____" Is a lot of talk that really makes people completely uninterested in joining the tournament scene if this is how the people responsible are talking like.

edit: not saying anyone here is responsible, im just saying its not putting faith in people's minds that tournaments are even a good idea

Bravo Sir!

meatybtz wrote:Zero tolerance was common going all the way back to before there were tournaments in the US and Games Days was it. Games Day was zero tolerance. Hell my first tournament I almost caught a perma-ban for voicing that I thought the official measurements that decided the win loss on game three were off. Wasn't loud about it but was discussing it with my opponent who was of a similar mind to me and mostly didn't care win or lose because it was a damn well fought game but the TO overheard us and came down on me like a ton of bricks. No bitching rule in play, the Upire's judgment was not open to discussion or question. The Ump was always right,even when he was wrong, just as in a sports game. Argue with the umpire and he will toss you out of the game.

Find that in writing anywhere from 5th edition to now.

**General Hobbs**

Said it before, will say it again. Chess clocks to prevent slow play.

Have worked fine in the local tourney scene.

**Arachnofiend**

I'm not an event organizer, but I can say with some confidence that running 40k tournaments is... not a good way to get rich.

**NecronLord3**

Chess clocks aren’t the answer. Horde armies are to powerful in 40k period. This is why there were several 120+ model armies on every team. GW needs to quit penalizing large models, and players need to quit whinnning when a 400+ pointed model is ‘too good’. Magnus and titans should be crushing infantry squads not running in fear of them.

**Sunny Side Up**

bananathug wrote:
I guess GW isn't the only one that needs to tighten its rules.

...

As much as I hate the idea of them chess clocks seem to be a necessary evil. There is little reason for "pros" to have a game that only goes to turn 3. Completing turn 4 should be a req for high level play and the only way it seems that can be accomplished without arbitrarily penalizing the opponent of the guy slow playing is through chess clocks or having an official at every table.

But that’s not something GW ever did or likely wants for 40K.

This newfangled idea from the “competitive” scene that games a) always must go to turn 5/6 and b) both players ought to have exactly equal time is, love it or hate it, not a thing 40K was built around.

You can look up literally hundreds of games on GW’s Twitch, all streamed unedited, so you can clock them, if you like.

Games from various WHW tournaments, games including the game designers and rules writers, games including their community/marketing guys, etc..

Not a single one goes to “equal time for both players” and many of them just go to turn 3 or so, and it’s not a problem. Nobody even comments on it. If it is Orks against Knights or something like this, of course the Ork player will need 3x the time of the Knight player.

That is simply how 40K works. If GW had designed their best-selling sci-fi miniatures game with rules/design-goals of “it needs to finish 5 turns in time x” and “both players should use equal time”, it would be a very different game indeed. Arguably, physically vastly different armies such as 300 models of Orks vs. 3 Models of Knights wouldn’t even exist. Or there would be other limits like equal no. of activations, independent of models, or something along those lines.

If you are serious about making “every game must go to turn x” and “both players get equal time” a requirement, you will realistically have to change a lot more with 40K to make that work: cap model-counts perhaps, enforce dice-apps analogous to chess clocks for unequal dice, probably simplify rules for time-intensive phases like CC,... etc.

You cannot just throw chess clocks and arbitrary houserules on play time at an even moderately (as games go) System not design for it and expect it to work without a hitch.

For normal 40K, being flexible enough to easily deal with armies (and players) of different speeds and having missions like most BRB EW missions, which are as easily scored at the end of turn 2 as they are at the end of turn 7, is a feature, not a problem.

Changing that to the new “play-time-paradigm” most competitive types aspire to cannot happen by simply saying “that’s how it works now and any any hiccups this requirement causes with a game. Of designed for it is just “cheating”.

Just like you cannot go in and just say in football “equal time of ball possession for both teams is now a requirement and if you’ve played it differently, you’ve been cheating” You’ll need to change a lot more to make that new rule work.

If that’s what you want for the 40K(based-game) of tournaments, you’ll need to change a lot more of the game’s core to make it work under that timing-dogma.

**bananathug**

Don't think of the clocks around to enforce equal time, think about them as a way to enforce maximum time.

Who cares how much time your opponent uses but in order for this game to work in tournament you have to be able to deploy and play 4 turns with your army in under 90 minutes. I'm pretty sure that's longer than they are really giving but it seems like a necessary evil. You could even get creative and give a time bonus to the player with more models (>50% more models time goes to 100 to 80?)

And an evil it really is. I've lost units because I've not taken the time to space them out properly because I'm not that competitive of player and am mostly around to have fun at a tournament but if I were going for top table please believe I'd have my measuring sticks with 1.25", 1.5" and 2" to make sure I could get proper distance between my guys quickly.

But that seems impossible if you are trying to move/measure 200 dudes and I don't know if there is an answer for that other than reducing the number of games per day (2 4 hour games would always go to some conclusion I'd wager) or just make it a super long, terrible experience (3 3.5 hour games. No breaks, 9:30am to 8 pm...).

Movement trays are difficult with terrain, I guess more gentlemanly agreements would work "yo, my guys are 1.5" apart and 10" from your unit" but then that's hard to enforce, leads to arguments and all it takes are a couple jerks to ruin it.

I don't know if there is a good solution (hopefully we'll see how chess clocks do at BAO) but it seems like the least bad option. I think games ending turn 2 or even turn 3 are a direct result of intentionally slow playing when the contest is between two people that know the rules/their armies. I guess you could call that a meta and could be something you must design your army around but it just seems sleazy and underhanded.

I equate it to soccer when an opponent goes down, there's no rule that says you have to stop play but most professionals do the right thing but there's always TFG out there that pushes what is acceptable especially when they feel they have the advantage...

**meleti**

As always, there's a fog of war over what actually happened at the tournament. Conflicting accounts and different perspectives.

I just hope that, whatever happened, the parties involved will try their best to avoid similar misunderstandings in the future.

**Smirrors**

Sunny Side Up wrote:

This newfangled idea from the “competitive” scene that games a) always must go to turn 5/6 and b) both players ought to have exactly equal time is, love it or hate it, not a thing 40K was built around.

Not a single one goes to “equal time for both players” and many of them just go to turn 3 or so, and it’s not a problem. Nobody even comments on it. If it is Orks against Knights or something like this, of course the Ork player will need 3x the time of the Knight player.

Just like you cannot go in and just say in football “equal time of ball possession for both teams is now a requirement and if you’ve played it differently, you’ve been cheating” You’ll need to change a lot more to make that new rule work.

1. Games were certainly designed to get to turn 5/6, but not in 2.5hrs. They certainly didn't plan missions that would end mid game to determine a winner. If that was the case then make games end in 4 turns so that players can plan around that.
2. Disagree somewhat. If you had Ork vs Ork they would get the same amount of time. Therefore they should be able to play against a Knight player in the same amount of time.
3. The difference with most sports is that the player is forced to give up possession i.e. tennis or can have possession taken away from them i.e. football.

**Sunny Side Up**

Smirrors wrote:

1. Games were certainly designed to get to turn 5/6, but not in 2.5hrs. They certainly didn't plan missions that would end mid game to determine a winner. If that was the case then make games end in 4 turns so that players can plan around that.
2. Disagree somewhat. If you had Ork vs Ork they would get the same amount of time. Therefore they should be able to play against a Knight player in the same amount of time.
3. The difference with most sports is that the player is forced to give up possession i.e. tennis or can have possession taken away from them i.e. football.

Again, if 40K really was designed with that in mind, why do hundreds of Warhammer TV twitch games (including tournament games and games by the game designers) deviate from this "intention" or "design" and basically none of them conform to it? (not to mention that no word on equal play time is dropped in any rule book of 40K in any edition past or present)

And if ATC, ITC & co truly wanted to follow GW's "design", why are they actively and explicitly choosing a different approach to bring down game times than GW does for their GT, Throne of Skulls, etc..?

You can do what you want with chess clocks & co. But claiming they align with the original design of the game is just ludicrous and wilful ignorance of everything you can see and read about the game from GW.

**Kirasu**

Primark G wrote:
An illegal list is a bigger deal in 40k as compared to a card game.

Your comment shows you don't really understand how much larger MTG is compared to 40k in a competitive sense, it's not just a "card game". It's a game with $100,000 prizes. 1 card out of 60 is somehow less impactful than 5pts in 2000? 1 card drastically alters the probability of winning.