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deviantduck wrote: Using wargear not included in your list isn't something that can be list checked ahead of time by a 3rd party. But, having a clear, concise, accurate list and having WYSIWYG models (as 99.9% of tourneys require) make it really difficult to 'accidentally' fire a non-existent plasma pistol.
What most likely happened is that the plasma pistol WAS WYSIWYG but wasn't paid for on the list.
I don't think you understand how WYSIWYG works. If he didn't list the PP on his sheet and didn't pay for it, but it is on the model, he broke WYSIWYG policy, period. The fact that he used it just demonstrates the need for that rule to begin with.
That's the same thing. WYSIWYG doesn't just go one way you say it does. If your miniature isn't modeled with a PP, then you can't say on the list the mini is equipped with a PP. If your miniature is modeled with a PP, then you MUST say on the list mini is equipped with PP.
If he represented it on the mini but didn't put it on his list, then it wasn't WYSIWYG. If he didn't represent it on the mini but put it on the list, then it wasn't WYSIWYG.
The infraction most likely involved the player attempting to represent a WYSIWYG mini with a PP, but "forgot" to add to his list. So it wasn't WYSIWYG at the end of the day.
The reason why WYSIWYG is actually not a rule anymore is because of the theoretical 'Thousand-Bolter Thundercannon' shenanigans, because if you were actually able to modela thundercannon with thousand bolters, you were still technically allowed to use it.
So.. you're in violent agreement? I was saying if a person's army is true 100% WYSIWYG then when you say you're firing your plasma pistol your opponent can go... "what plasma pistol?" and then you go, "oh my bad. good catch." If the list and the model match on paper and on the table this kind of thing doesn't happen nearly as often. I've seen way too many 'plasma' models holding melta guns this edition even though every tournament states your models must be WYSIWYG... But then gets us back to the enforcing of the rules by the TOs.
At this point there's not much to be gained in finding or defining blame. What happened happened and the important thing is what we can learn to make sure it doesn't happen again. TOs need to take lessons from this event and discuss ways to respond better to what happened. The players involved need to see the things that brought them under scrutiny and do better next time. The community needs to respond better to these kinds of issues and find ways to make problems easier to identify and resolve before they get out of hand.
Ultimatley, we're in a period where lines are being crossed while they're being drawn. 40k is playing catchup to other systems where the creators have held onto the responsibility of governing the community. It would be great if GW would take charge on the matter, but failing that, the community really needs to see all the steps that have been taken elsewhere and work together to get to a place where these situations are consistently dealt with appropriately.
Cheaters should be black listed by TOs. They should be suspended from a number (x) future circuit tournaments. Repeat offenders permanently banned. Period.
- There should be rules on legibility and completeness of lists. Tourney point penalty of (p) if not compliant.
- Top lists should be vetted. If not compliant, disqualified from tourney + Black Listed for a number of (x) future tourneys.
- To track cheating add anonymous "Black Dot" to traditional sportsmanship thumbs up / thumbs down. Added Black dot indicates SUSPECTED cheating. TO can then "hover" over that player's table for future games.
- WYSIWYG should be agreed upon before hand. Discrepancies pointed out.
- Your personal customizations always go in opponents favor for cover etc) or lack thereof if he/she calls for it.
- Slow play should be penalized with chess clocks.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/18 19:41:23
After reading the majority of this thread I have to say I agree with the punishment handed down. It seems like many teams made a mistake at some point.... but it seemed to be A mistake. Team Happy seems to be the only team making not 1 but 3 rules violations. IMO 3 strikes and your out. It seems like the TOs did a good job with the punishments and I agree that after 3 its just time to say "no hard feelings but tighten it up and come back next year".
Does your enjoyment of a tournament honestly depend that much on whether or not everyone else is 100% in compliance with a rules packet?
Is it 100% of what effects my enjoyment, no. Is it part of it yes, definitely. If I am following the rules laid out I expect the other attendants to do the same.
Because, to me, alligators and an extra plasma gun in one player's list makes zero difference in what I would do at that tournament.
I am a fan of conversions, if the alligators where modeled on the correct base and he was not doing line of sight shenanigans I would have appreciated it. On the inverse if the Tourney says they are no good I am cool with that also. their tourney their rules. Bottom line, as people have said in other threads, get them approved before you bring them. The plasma gun I would have had an issue with I can't see that being anything but deliberate cheating and I think it was handled well by the TO's.
How would you feel after having paid all that money, were away from your family, etc, and played a game using the wrong BS for a unit only to get called out on it as part of a zero-tolerance policy?
First of all most people are not asking for a zero tolerance policy but to answer your question zero problem, years ago at Adepticon I brought an illegal list to Combat patrol. Models had a two wound max and I brought a three wound model. When I discovered my mistake I contacted the judges and told them to zero my previous games and award my opponents max points. I was offered the chance to sub in something else but I did not bring any other models. After further discussion I decided to remove myself because I did not think it was fair to make someone play a list that was effectively down 1/4 of it's points. I would have been fine letting people club me but I decided it would detract from their fun and it was not fair to my potential opponents to continue.
To address your belief that people want a zero tolerance policy. I don't think anyone is under the delusion a game of 40K can be played 100% correct. That is why people are saying their needs to be a scaled punishment for certain incidents, which I believe the ATC crew did, and good on them. If some one is caught blatantly cheating, lets say loaded dice or moving a model when his opponent is not looking, yeah DQ. For things less nefarious sliding scale but for things in the rules packet, yeah they need to be followed, and you can't complain if you didn't and get called on it.
techsoldaten wrote: Does your enjoyment of a tournament honestly depend that much on whether or not everyone else is 100% in compliance with a rules packet?
Yes. If I go to a tournament to play 40k (or whatever other game) I expect to play 40k, not some vaguely 40k-like game where everyone ignores the rules and makes it up as they go along. It's a tournament, not meeting your friends at the FLGS for a casual narrative game.
Because, to me, alligators and an extra plasma gun in one player's list makes zero difference in what I would do at that tournament.
So cheating is ok as long as you don't happen to play against the cheater that day? I guess it just sucks to be the people who did have to play against them, since you don't seem to care about their experience.
That much interest in what other people are doing is strange and alien to me, it's almost like hearing tournaments are a competition to see how closely people can confirm with a checklist more than a chance to play games and meet new people.
Yes, that's what a tournament is. You are expected to follow the rules. If you want to meet people go play casual games or whatever. For example, NOVA has some nice casual/narrative side events at the tournament.
It changed for me when I realized just about everyone has a problem with their list, the rules, etc. Instead of looking at 90% of the gaming community as cheaters, I would prefer to focus on sportsmanship.
Good sportsmanship includes following the rules, and accepting the penalty for breaking the rules instead of whining about how unfair it is. It's appalling to me that you (and others) accept "90% of the gaming community" cheating as just the natural state of the game, something we have to accept so that the cheaters can have fun.
How would you feel after having paid all that money, were away from your family, etc, and played a game using the wrong BS for a unit only to get called out on it as part of a zero-tolerance policy? That is the policy a lot of people are calling for, and I think that situation would a lot harder to deal with than whether or not someone else went over by 15 points or so. And while you might feel that doesn't apply to you, it would affect to a lot of other people who also have families, budgets, jobs, etc.
Of course it would suck, and that's the point. When there's no penalty for cheating there's no incentive to stop cheating. If you know that the penalty for bringing an illegal list is sitting alone in your hotel room trying to see if you can change your airline tickets to fly home early then you're going to be really careful to ensure that your list is legal. The result is that very few, if any, people would suffer the penalty because they would put the effort into avoiding it.
Also, there's a difference between cheating and plausible mistakes. An illegal list is cheating, the situation is black and white and there is no excuse for failing to bring a correct list. Making the wrong roll for a unit could be a mistake by both players (for example, forgetting that a unit moved and has the -1 penalty to its heavy weapons), and the penalty wouldn't be a DQ. But if you're consistently trying to use your BS 4+ unit as BS 3+ then yeah, that's a DQ. Either you're cheating, or you're so hopelessly uninformed about the rules of your own army that you don't belong in a tournament.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/18 20:40:21
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
How would you feel after having paid all that money, were away from your family, etc, and played a game using the wrong BS for a unit only to get called out on it as part of a zero-tolerance policy?
First of all most people are not asking for a zero tolerance policy
To address your belief that people want a zero tolerance policy. I don't think anyone is under the delusion a game of 40K can be played 100% correct.
I, for one, would be OK with a "zero tolerance" policy. I'm not a cheater, so I have nothing to fear.
I would be delighted to see a team of cheaters get kicked out of the tournament, names named, videod to YouTube, the whole nine yards. Permanent global shaming and blacklisting. No punishment can be too severe for a team of cheaters.
techsoldaten wrote: Does your enjoyment of a tournament honestly depend that much on whether or not everyone else is 100% in compliance with a rules packet?
Yes. If I go to a tournament to play 40k (or whatever other game) I expect to play 40k, not some vaguely 40k-like game where everyone ignores the rules and makes it up as they go along. It's a tournament, not meeting your friends at the FLGS for a casual narrative game.
Because, to me, alligators and an extra plasma gun in one player's list makes zero difference in what I would do at that tournament.
So cheating is ok as long as you don't happen to play against the cheater that day? I guess it just sucks to be the people who did have to play against them, since you don't seem to care about their experience.
That much interest in what other people are doing is strange and alien to me, it's almost like hearing tournaments are a competition to see how closely people can confirm with a checklist more than a chance to play games and meet new people.
Yes, that's what a tournament is. You are expected to follow the rules. If you want to meet people go play casual games or whatever. For example, NOVA has some nice casual/narrative side events at the tournament.
It changed for me when I realized just about everyone has a problem with their list, the rules, etc. Instead of looking at 90% of the gaming community as cheaters, I would prefer to focus on sportsmanship.
Good sportsmanship includes following the rules, and accepting the penalty for breaking the rules instead of whining about how unfair it is. It's appalling to me that you (and others) accept "90% of the gaming community" cheating as just the natural state of the game, something we have to accept so that the cheaters can have fun.
How would you feel after having paid all that money, were away from your family, etc, and played a game using the wrong BS for a unit only to get called out on it as part of a zero-tolerance policy? That is the policy a lot of people are calling for, and I think that situation would a lot harder to deal with than whether or not someone else went over by 15 points or so. And while you might feel that doesn't apply to you, it would affect to a lot of other people who also have families, budgets, jobs, etc.
Of course it would suck, and that's the point. When there's no penalty for cheating there's no incentive to stop cheating. If you know that the penalty for bringing an illegal list is sitting alone in your hotel room trying to see if you can change your airline tickets to fly home early then you're going to be really careful to ensure that your list is legal. The result is that very few, if any, people would suffer the penalty because they would put the effort into avoiding it.
Also, there's a difference between cheating and plausible mistakes. An illegal list is cheating, the situation is black and white and there is no excuse for failing to bring a correct list. Making the wrong roll for a unit could be a mistake by both players (for example, forgetting that a unit moved and has the -1 penalty to its heavy weapons), and the penalty wouldn't be a DQ. But if you're consistently trying to use your BS 4+ unit as BS 3+ then yeah, that's a DQ. Either you're cheating, or you're so hopelessly uninformed about the rules of your own army that you don't belong in a tournament.
Dude, you always freak me out when we're on the same page.
I have a question about plasma pistols in general. Say for a Space Marine character you use a holstered pistol - that would be okay right?
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
Does your enjoyment of a tournament honestly depend that much on whether or not everyone else is 100% in compliance with a rules packet?
Is it 100% of what effects my enjoyment, no. Is it part of it yes, definitely. If I am following the rules laid out I expect the other attendants to do the same.
Great! That sounds pretty reasonable and in-line with what most people expect.
Because, to me, alligators and an extra plasma gun in one player's list makes zero difference in what I would do at that tournament.
I am a fan of conversions, if the alligators where modeled on the correct base and he was not doing line of sight shenanigans I would have appreciated it. On the inverse if the Tourney says they are no good I am cool with that also. their tourney their rules. Bottom line, as people have said in other threads, get them approved before you bring them. The plasma gun I would have had an issue with I can't see that being anything but deliberate cheating and I think it was handled well by the TO's.
Great! So it sounds like you are saying the ATC situation was handled properly and the TOs did the right job. In a way, Team Happy at least had the sense to throw in the towel when it made sense. Is that accurate?
How would you feel after having paid all that money, were away from your family, etc, and played a game using the wrong BS for a unit only to get called out on it as part of a zero-tolerance policy?
First of all most people are not asking for a zero tolerance policy but to answer your question zero problem, years ago at Adepticon I brought an illegal list to Combat patrol. Models had a two wound max and I brought a three wound model. When I discovered my mistake I contacted the judges and told them to zero my previous games and award my opponents max points. I was offered the chance to sub in something else but I did not bring any other models. After further discussion I decided to remove myself because I did not think it was fair to make someone play a list that was effectively down 1/4 of it's points. I would have been fine letting people club me but I decided it would detract from their fun and it was not fair to my potential opponents to continue.
Good for you. Hoping you stuck around and still played games, only not competitively.
I don't go to NOVA anymore but live near where they hold the event. I get in more games off-site the week before and after than I would if I went there. It's funny, for me the tournament experience is better without the competition. I hate the pressure it makes people feel and the lengths they go to for a win. There's no drama, it just dorks, dice and extremely optimized lists.
ChainswordHeretic wrote: To address your belief that people want a zero tolerance policy. I don't think anyone is under the delusion a game of 40K can be played 100% correct. That is why people are saying their needs to be a scaled punishment for certain incidents, which I believe the ATC crew did, and good on them. If some one is caught blatantly cheating, lets say loaded dice or moving a model when his opponent is not looking, yeah DQ. For things less nefarious sliding scale but for things in the rules packet, yeah they need to be followed, and you can't complain if you didn't and get called on it.
This I disagree with. There are at least 30 posts in this thread calling for a zero-tolerance policy. Gencon is now enforcing one.
You sound like a pretty reasonable person and I respect you for clarifying your comments. When I first read them, I had the sense you were saying all competitive players are trash and nothing but a zero-tolerance policy would make a tournament enjoyable. From my point of view, there is a range between minor infractions up to disqualifying events. While we probably don't agree on what they are, we agree that range exists and it's not just a hard-line, black-and-white situation.
The problem I had with that is a zero tolerance policy is an invitation to abuse. Were I still going to tournaments, I would be tempted to go for the DQ it any time I ran into a particularly hard list. Or maybe even to win the tournament by way of DQs every turn, the odds of getting someone to violate the rules are better than actually rolling dice.
My experience has been, when you suggest to an opponent that their units are better than what they are, most players will go along with it. I don't know if the number is 4-in-5 or 2-in-3, but if someone is getting ready to roll the dice and I tell that person they need 3s to hit and they really need 4s, that many will go with my suggestion over their own personal knowledge of their army. And I've got a cell phone and can get some witnesses to back me up when I take that to a TO as evidence of cheating. And if that doesn't work, there's a few other things I can think of to make it happen.
The fact I can see this means other people can too and I'm not exactly some master manipulator. I just wonder if it's actually worth it to put in the time to create that range of offenses / punishments, or if TOs already have a lot on their plates. It feels like the status quo is the practical solution.
techsoldaten wrote: Were I still going to tournaments, I would be tempted to go for the DQ it any time I ran into a particularly hard list.
That makes no sense. How do you "go for the DQ" if your opponent doesn't cheat?
My experience has been, when you suggest to an opponent that their units are better than what they are, most players will go along with it. I don't know if the number is 4-in-5 or 2-in-3, but if someone is getting ready to roll the dice and I tell that person they need 3s to hit and they really need 4s, that many will go with my suggestion over their own personal knowledge of their army. And I've got a cell phone and can get some witnesses to back me up when I take that to a TO as evidence of cheating. And if that doesn't work, there's a few other things I can think of to make it happen.
At which point you're on camera telling your opponent "3s to hit", and not only are you DQed for cheating you're blacklisted from ever playing in a tournament again and your name is all over every 40k community as a shameless TFG.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Not speaking specifically about your comments, but if one honestly believes mounting calvalry on pre-painted alligators without prior authorization is cheating, that's fine. The question is how did it impact any game and the answer is probably not. If one believes going over on points is cheating, that's fine. If someone honestly believes an extra plasma gun popping up in a list is cheating, that's fine. The question is how did it impact the outcome of a game and the answer is probably not. If on believes only getting to turn 4 in a game is slow play is cheating, that's fine. The question is how did it impact the outcome of the game and the answer is probably not.
Let the punishment fit the severity of the impact on the game. Anything else is just vindictive.
While I largely agree with fitting the punishment to the severity of the crime I do take issue with a couple of things here. Specifically, when discussing possible types of infringements you repeat "The question is how did it impact the outcome of a game". That's incorrect. The question is, is it against the rules? When it comes to applying an initial penalty intent is irrelevant. Intent might be relevant when assessing whether a harsher penalty is required but the only thing that matters is if the rules were broken. If my list is 2001 points, I have broken the rules and a penalty should be applied. It doesn't matter if breaking the rules affected the outcome of the game. There's a rule, and a penalty for breaking it - in this case a warning, followed by a game loss. If it later comes to light that this is a pattern, or rather than being 1 point over because of a miscalculation, my list is actually 150 points over and I'm blatantly trying to cheat I may well be met with a full DQ and possible future ban from the event but that's the only point where intent should enter into it.
"Crime." You lose me when you use that word.
You know I was using a common turn of phrase, right? I'm not literally conflating an illegal tourney list with murder.
If you honestly feel the only way they succeed is cheating, that's great. But this list is technicalities, I would be embarrassed to say something there caused me to lose. They don't have much of an impact on the game outside sportsmanship (mine included.) Saying there's a "crime" when a player did not conform 100% to a rather long set of rules makes me think we're losing perspective on why anyone even plays in a tournament. It's asking a lot for TOs to assume the worst in people and enforce a zero-tolerance policy, they're basically being turned into cops and players into snitches.
I'm not advocating a zero-tolerance policy. The post of mine you quoted actually states that pretty clearly. I'm suggesting more of a sliding scale, starting with some baseline penalties for easily verifiable infractions.
Pause and think about the forms of cheating that actually affect the outcomes of games. Adding extra models to your lists, giving you lists with points-costs adjusted downwards, using dice rolls to reposition models, cupping dice to add a few 6s, rolling into a pile and choosing the best dice, looking at a book and quoting rules that don't exist, telling opponents they must to roll higher than what they actually need, mismeasuring, adjusting position with rulers, repositioning terrain, double movement / shooting / psychic actions, fixing the decks, overcounting command points, using food / beverages as distractions at key points, etc. There's a long list of worse behaviors that actually impact games. Were I of a mind to, I could do all this in a game without you knowing unless I told you. If I really wanted, I could probably get you to apologize and thank me for being so patient with your poor play after I win.
The possibility of different forms of cheating shouldn't stop us from trying to prevent the things we can deal with more easily. To answer your other points with one general comment: impact on the game is irrelevant. We have rules. Follow them. If the tournament is 2000 points you don't get to take 2001 points and then claim there was no impact. How do we know? Maybe that free plasma pistol took the last two wounds from a model before it could turn the tide of the battle. Maybe having an extra Marine in your Devastator squad was the difference between getting an extra Lascannon shot and not. It's difficult to know for sure but my whole point is we shouldn't have to make that judgement. We have rules and restrictions that are supposed to be adhered to. Most other people at the tournament managed to do it, possibly making some sacrifices in list building to stay within the points limit. Why should someone get a free pass because it might not matter? If it doesn't matter you should have no trouble following the clearly laid out tournament rules. I'm genuinely confused how anyone can disagree with the basic principle that someone spending more points than they're allowed to at a tournament shouldn't have some sort of penalty applied. Once again, I'm not saying someone with a 2001 point list should be instantly kicked out and banned for life. I'm suggesting a clearly laid out penalty is applied, with possibly more severe penalties if the TO believes the infringement to merit it.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/18 21:22:59
Slipspace wrote: I'm not saying someone with a 2001 point list should be instantly kicked out and banned for life.
If someone is 1 point over, they should be DQd immediately. Math is not hard. If you're that afraid of a math error, only bring 1900 points to a 2000 pt game.
Slipspace wrote: I'm not saying someone with a 2001 point list should be instantly kicked out and banned for life.
If someone is 1 point over, they should be DQd immediately. Math is not hard. If you're that afraid of a math error, only bring 1900 points to a 2000 pt game.
I disagree. I think a more proportional penalty would be a game loss for every game you used an illegal list, followed by the TO adjusting the list as they see fit to make it legal. I don't think draconian penalties really benefit anyone and could do more harm than good. I do think we should probably be keeping track of penalties across events though and if a player keeps making the same "mistakes" further action should be taken.
Illegal list is illegal. It's probably the easiest thing to get right - just post it to Dakka for free checking. No excluse for that. Automatic DQ and walk of shame.
Slipspace wrote: I disagree. I think a more proportional penalty would be a game loss for every game you used an illegal list, followed by the TO adjusting the list as they see fit to make it legal. I don't think draconian penalties really benefit anyone and could do more harm than good. I do think we should probably be keeping track of penalties across events though and if a player keeps making the same "mistakes" further action should be taken.
The point of a "draconian" penalty is to keep people from bringing an illegal list in the first place. If the penalty is just a retroactive game loss you might not care so much, especially if you know you're not going to win the tournament anyway. If the penalty is an immediate DQ and removal from the event property you're probably going to decide that spending a bit of effort to make sure that your list is legal is better than taking the risk of crying alone in your hotel room over $1000 in wasted travel costs. There's simply no excuse for failing to have a legal list, and the penalty should reflect this.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
techsoldaten wrote: Does your enjoyment of a tournament honestly depend that much on whether or not everyone else is 100% in compliance with a rules packet?
Yes. If I go to a tournament to play 40k (or whatever other game) I expect to play 40k, not some vaguely 40k-like game where everyone ignores the rules and makes it up as they go along. It's a tournament, not meeting your friends at the FLGS for a casual narrative game.
That's great as an ideal. Can't argue against that.
Because, to me, alligators and an extra plasma gun in one player's list makes zero difference in what I would do at that tournament.
So cheating is ok as long as you don't happen to play against the cheater that day? I guess it just sucks to be the people who did have to play against them, since you don't seem to care about their experience.
Define cheating. This sounds like a very black-and-white definition, you offer a much more situational one below.
Because if we're talking about alligators as cavalry or an extra plasma gun, that wouldn't even register with me.
If we're talking about purposefully lowered points on a list, sleight of hand with the dice, pretend rules, etc, that's worth talking about.
That much interest in what other people are doing is strange and alien to me, it's almost like hearing tournaments are a competition to see how closely people can confirm with a checklist more than a chance to play games and meet new people.
Yes, that's what a tournament is. You are expected to follow the rules. If you want to meet people go play casual games or whatever. For example, NOVA has some nice casual/narrative side events at the tournament.
That's an interesting perspective to say a tournament is complying with a checklist. If this is why people go to tournaments, why actually play games at all? Maybe there are other checklist enthusiasts in your area you can get together with to fault one another?
It changed for me when I realized just about everyone has a problem with their list, the rules, etc. Instead of looking at 90% of the gaming community as cheaters, I would prefer to focus on sportsmanship.
Good sportsmanship includes following the rules, and accepting the penalty for breaking the rules instead of whining about how unfair it is. It's appalling to me that you (and others) accept "90% of the gaming community" cheating as just the natural state of the game, something we have to accept so that the cheaters can have fun.
My opinion about this would be different if I didn't think the majority of people don't know the rules, don't even shoot for WYSIWYG, have problems with their lists, etc.
If you are talking about a strict enforcement of the rules, i.e. all cheaters get bounced, tournaments would be very small and unenjoyable.
If you are talking about situational enforcement, which is what TOs are doing now, that's a lot more reasonable. Which begs the question, why all the drama about ATC?
How would you feel after having paid all that money, were away from your family, etc, and played a game using the wrong BS for a unit only to get called out on it as part of a zero-tolerance policy? That is the policy a lot of people are calling for, and I think that situation would a lot harder to deal with than whether or not someone else went over by 15 points or so. And while you might feel that doesn't apply to you, it would affect to a lot of other people who also have families, budgets, jobs, etc.
Of course it would suck, and that's the point. When there's no penalty for cheating there's no incentive to stop cheating. If you know that the penalty for bringing an illegal list is sitting alone in your hotel room trying to see if you can change your airline tickets to fly home early then you're going to be really careful to ensure that your list is legal. The result is that very few, if any, people would suffer the penalty because they would put the effort into avoiding it.
Also, there's a difference between cheating and plausible mistakes. An illegal list is cheating, the situation is black and white and there is no excuse for failing to bring a correct list. Making the wrong roll for a unit could be a mistake by both players (for example, forgetting that a unit moved and has the -1 penalty to its heavy weapons), and the penalty wouldn't be a DQ. But if you're consistently trying to use your BS 4+ unit as BS 3+ then yeah, that's a DQ. Either you're cheating, or you're so hopelessly uninformed about the rules of your own army that you don't belong in a tournament.
To be clear, there are penalties for using an illegal list already. Do I understand you correctly, you are just saying the penalties need to be more severe?
My point was a little more nuanced and gets back into the distinction of different kinds of cheating. Let's actually call it rule breaking, since that phrase describes non-intentional violations.
I'm pretty confident in my ability to goad opponents into breaking the rules in a clear and visible way. Does that make that opponent hopelessly uninformed or a cheater? For that matter, does that make me a cheater or just someone who knows how to work the rules? Where's the line between my intent and my opponent's?
All I know is the rules of the tournament say I don't have to play a game if I find enough fault with my opponent's army or playstyle. I have an incentive to lay out that problem in a way where it's clear to TOs and there's a lot of situations where that would be better than actually playing a game. If there's some action I can take that encourages that happening without making me look bad, there's a good chance it's going to happen.
If you're saying that TOs need to determine if the rule breaking is intentional or not, I would argue that's what is happening right now and doesn't require a change in the current tournament format. If you are arguing that there needs to be more of a zero-tolerance policy, I say that's going to be counter-productive as people will treat it like any other rule and learn to exploit it. Call it the 7 Flyrant Principle, 40k players exploit rules to their advantage.
So stop skirting the line. Should penalties be situational or strict?
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Peregrine wrote: At which point you're on camera telling your opponent "3s to hit", and not only are you DQed for cheating you're blacklisted from ever playing in a tournament again and your name is all over every 40k community as a shameless TFG.
Oh, so now I'm responsible for the accuracy of my opponent's understanding of the rules? If I make a mistake and it causes someone to break the rules, now I go on a blacklist?
That's wonderful logic you have there. Makes perfect sense as a way to conduct tournaments.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/18 21:51:47
techsoldaten wrote: Because if we're talking about alligators as cavalry or an extra plasma gun, that wouldn't even register with me.
How would those not register? The alligator cavalry, while an ok conversion in many situations, was indisputably in violation of the event's rules (whether or not those rules are good is a separate question). And taking an extra plasma gun is blatant cheating, I don't know how you wouldn't care about it. Unless you're saying that it wouldn't register because your opponent would successfully exploit your trust and sneak in the illegal list without you noticing?
That's an interesting perspective to say a tournament is complying with a checklist. If this is why people go to tournaments, why actually play games at all? Maybe there are other checklist enthusiasts in your area you can get together with to fault one another?
Because "complying with the checklist" is a mandatory prerequisite for participating, not the entire event?
If you are talking about a strict enforcement of the rules, i.e. all cheaters get bounced, tournaments would be very small and unenjoyable.
No, they would be small and enjoyable because everyone would be following the rules. And I don't think they'd be as small as you claim, because people who want to participate would put more effort into learning and following the rules.
To be clear, there are penalties for using an illegal list already. Do I understand you correctly, you are just saying the penalties need to be more severe?
That's exactly what I'm saying. If you are cheating with an illegal list or can't bother to put in even the most basic level of effort towards following the rules then you don't play. Immediate DQ and removal from the event property.
I'm pretty confident in my ability to goad opponents into breaking the rules in a clear and visible way. Does that make that opponent hopelessly uninformed or a cheater? For that matter, does that make me a cheater or just someone who knows how to work the rules? Where's the line between my intent and my opponent's?
It makes you a cheater because you are deliberately making false statements about the game state and/or rules. This is not complicated.
All I know is the rules of the tournament say I don't have to play a game if I find enough fault with my opponent's army or playstyle. I have an incentive to lay out that problem in a way where it's clear to TOs and there's a lot of situations where that would be better than actually playing a game. If there's some action I can take that encourages that happening without making me look bad, there's a good chance it's going to happen.
And that can only happen if your opponent is cheating, in which case their DQ is the correct outcome of the situation. If your opponent does not cheat then you can't do anything to get a "free" win.
Oh, so now I'm responsible for the accuracy of my opponent's understanding of the rules? If I make a mistake and it causes someone to break the rules, now I go on a blacklist?
There is a tremendous difference between not knowing your opponent's rules and deliberately making a false statement about the rules to bait your opponent into playing something incorrectly while you film it, and then promptly calling a judge to impose a penalty. In that situation you clearly know the correct rule (as you are calling a judge as soon as your opponent breaks it), and you are making false statements about the game state and/or rules to persuade your opponent to play incorrectly. IOW, you are cheating. Let's not pretend that everyone is too stupid to recognize this and apply the correct penalty to you instead of your opponent.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/18 22:05:02
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Just going to throw this out there... Team happy is a top tier competition team and there is ZERO chance that the player didn’t know that he didn’t pay for the plasma gun. I’m barely competitive (played in two ITC tournaments this season) and I sure as hell know what upgrades I’ve put into my list and what I didn’t have points for. Especially when lists are submitted early, locked in, and then used in multiple practice games.
That is the difference to me. A player useing a borrowed list in a 30 person local tournament might not realize his models dude doesn’t actually have plasma, but the top competitive team for 3 years running knows exactly what is in his list and decided to try to sneak a fast one by his opponents knowing they would assume he is WYSIWYG at this level.
Killermonkey wrote: Just going to throw this out there... Team happy is a top tier competition team and there is ZERO chance that the player didn’t know that he didn’t pay for the plasma gun. I’m barely competitive (played in two ITC tournaments this season) and I sure as hell know what upgrades I’ve put into my list and what I didn’t have points for. Especially when lists are submitted early, locked in, and then used in multiple practice games.
That is the difference to me. A player useing a borrowed list in a 30 person local tournament might not realize his models dude doesn’t actually have plasma, but the top competitive team for 3 years running knows exactly what is in his list and decided to try to sneak a fast one by his opponents knowing they would assume he is WYSIWYG at this level.
Actually Team Happy is well known for using borrowed armies - its part of how they keep up in the meta and it's not unusual for the ATC due to it's faction keyword rule.
Forge the Narrative has an almost hour long interview with the ATCTOs that sets a lot of things straight. It's worth a listen.
Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.
I was gonna go to a tournament this weekend. Played a practice game a few days ago, realized there was no way in hell I wanted memorize everything I would need to memorize in order to get everything right in a 2 hour, 15 minute , 2000 point game, even playing Tyranid monsters. Decided not to go.
Shrug. Your local FLGS isn't a travel tournament of course, but the bar for entry is getting really high for this kind of thing. A $1000 of models, hundreds of hours painting, memorizing what amounts to a short textbook that constantly changes. Hats off to those who can do it I suppose, but 40K would be a lot bigger if the competitive scene was more accessible I think. Those who do go through all that have a right to good games.
kestral wrote: I was gonna go to a tournament this weekend. Played a practice game a few days ago, realized there was no way in hell I wanted memorize everything I would need to memorize in order to get everything right in a 2 hour, 15 minute , 2000 point game, even playing Tyranid monsters. Decided not to go.
Shrug. Your local FLGS isn't a travel tournament of course, but the bar for entry is getting really high for this kind of thing. A $1000 of models, hundreds of hours painting, memorizing what amounts to a short textbook that constantly changes. Hats off to those who can do it I suppose, but 40K would be a lot bigger if the competitive scene was more accessible I think. Those who do go through all that have a right to good games.
Dude. Flashcards. I didn't start playing until eighth but I carry 4 flashcards with the top four things that make me run to to the rulebook/codex. For nids, it was a flashcard for Zoanthropes, 1 for Hive tyrants, 1 for my chapter tactic and another with top FAQ items about my strategems (along with a note that Biovores don't get overwatch)
For my DeathWatch it's SIA, Mission Tactics (and their names), Hellblasters, and Redemptor Dreadnoughts.
Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.
“I borrowed this army therefore I’m using wargear I didn’t pay for” isn’t a very good excuse. In fact, there isn’t a single good excuse for using an illegal list like that. What you should do is apologize, accept the penalty whatever it is, and try your hardest to not end up with a list issue like that again
I don't know about other people, but if I'm borrowing models the necessary first step is going to be unpacking them and using the written army list to separate them into units. If there's a model with a plasma pistol in the box it's not going to make it onto the table unless the written list says "model with plasma pistol" and I have to find something in the box to represent it. Nothing at all sounds plausible about borrowing an army and somehow being able to separate it into units without ever looking at the written list and noticing that there is no plasma pistol.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
I have a question about plasma pistols in general. Say for a Space Marine character you use a holstered pistol - that would be okay right?
Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/18 23:15:17
Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.
ChargerIIC wrote: I know this is throwing fuel on the fire, but Rob Baer of the Spikey Bits team is self-banning due to points violations in their winning list:
While I dislike Spikey Bits for other reasons, I will give credit for this. This seems like a case of an honest mistake, but then owning up to it and returning the trophy is a good move. Could be argued that the self-ban isn't really necessary, but I get the point he's trying to make.
ChargerIIC wrote: I know this is throwing fuel on the fire, but Rob Baer of the Spikey Bits team is self-banning due to points violations in their winning list:
While I dislike Spikey Bits for other reasons, I will give credit for this. This seems like a case of an honest mistake, but then owning up to it and returning the trophy is a good move. Could be argued that the self-ban isn't really necessary, but I get the point he's trying to make.
Yeah, hard to use your platform to cast stones, if you're unwilling to take the heat for your own issues. Smart move on his part.
Stopping himself from going to more tournaments this year feels excessive and completely unneeded. But considering his platform lives on his reputation I can understand why he went overboard.
5000pts.
on the way. 
-- $k 
-- 9k 
-- 6k 
-- 4k 
-- 
