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DJ3 wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
Aaaaaaand you missed his point and proved it all in one tirade. Good job.

1. A group of people was approaching teams, asking them to boycott the entire event if we were not removed. This is absolute fact.

Transparency means naming said group of people, not hiding who yo are calling your accusers.


.... sidenote: anyone not knowing what their list has going into a tournament is either a idiot, novice, or cheat, take your pick on the plasma pistol player. Same with illegal list. Anyone competing at this level just has Zero Excuses.

DJ3 wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
Aaaaaaand you missed his point and proved it all in one tirade. Good job.

1. A group of people was approaching teams, asking them to boycott the entire event if we were not removed. This is absolute fact.

Given that your team appears to be composed of poor sports who were actually caught cheating, that seems totally reasonable. I hope that you lot are permanently banned from future events

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

DJ3 wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
Aaaaaaand you missed his point and proved it all in one tirade. Good job.

1. A group of people was approaching teams, asking them to boycott the entire event if we were not removed. This is absolute fact.

Given that your team appears to be composed of poor sports who were actually caught cheating, that seems totally reasonable. I hope that you lot are permanently banned from future events

Yeah, the more this issue is discussed by more people who attended the event, the less sympathy I feel towards Team Happy and their conduct.

Inquisitor Dracos wrote:

.... sidenote: anyone not knowing what their list has going into a tournament is either a idiot, novice, or cheat, take your pick on the plasma pistol player. Same with illegal list. Anyone competing at this level just has Zero Excuses.

The way the LongWar video explained it, with context, it sounds like cheating to me.

Justin said why would anyone intend to cheat knowing the consequences. But in the heat of the moment, when the game is on the line, the true motivation of a person is tested. Aaron may have thought he could get away with it as normally who would check a list to see if a seraphim superior bought a plasma pistol when the model itself is carrying it. He did it the game before against a big name team, why would this second round be any different.

Interestingly I would like to know if he had been using the plasma pistol all game or selectively. That could indicate intent more.

 Smirrors wrote:
That could indicate intent more.

Who cares about intent.

It's just as unacceptable and rule breaking if it was an accident.

Whether you fall backwards into a goalie or push him deliberately, it's still 2 minutes in the box.

While I respect Spikey Bitz decision to hand back the trophy and ban himself, I don’t entirely believe it was done for the right reasons. I might be wrong in my opinion, but, it is just the gut feeling i'm getting from the situation as a whole and previous experience.

With the current situation, his illegal list would have come to light eventually. As such, he has bit the bullet and tried to get ahead of the potential storm.

With everything that has gone on at the ATC, and with him supposedly being linked to some of the people involved in the initial “mob” AND the fact that he/people he is linked, to publicised this to being with, it does have the feeling of a massively publicity stunt.

It is right that all this is coming out. But, I firmly reserve the right to put peoples motives into question.

I’m not going to go into the statement by the Long War guys, as the only experience i’ve had with them has been click bait youtube videos and the odd occasional bit of sensationalism. BUT, as a result, I’ve not had that much interaction with their full content, so, I could be wrong overall.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Smirrors wrote:
That could indicate intent more.

Who cares about intent.

It's just as unacceptable and rule breaking if it was an accident.

Whether you fall backwards into a goalie or push him deliberately, it's still 2 minutes in the box.

Well then why are we having this discussion. They were penalised for all infractions (game loss, sportsmanship warning, self inflicted DQ). They didn't get away with anything.

I couldn't care less about rob baer but whether its a stunt or not if he holds himself to his self imposed suspension through to the end he will have earned a lot of respect from me. The clickbait and ad spam are why I stopped caring about spikeybits even pulled my funding their patron after some shadiness from rob baer but going out in front of this and imposing the exact punishment that a portion of us feel is right and should be applied more under the right circumstances is absolutely the right move to me.

Juices video comes off incredibly sincere and if you watch any of the content the main focus is improving the hobby, building a better community and hobby/community standards. I think anyone who has been a part of their audience knows that while rob may be the weakest part of that team personality wise this "stunt" is exactly in line with their morals as a group and what they stand for.

As public figures and very well known within the community this is exactly what I would hope to see not team happy's "this is how its done" without even a single apology on the matter. What little respect dj3 earned by coming on this thread has been worn away by his lack of accepting any responsibility, blaming a dang conspiracy and the many holes in his story between selective answering, witness accounts and even the difference between the two posted statements here.

He asked us to make our own opinions on what's presented and I think his entire team would benefit the community by taking a breather from the circuit and coming back prepared to build up the community and not just abuse it for their own ego's sake

Edited for spacing and typos

Thank God for kharma...

Most everyone knows cheating is rampant at the top tables and has been for decades. It's the TO's that bury their head in the sand that have exacerbated the problem until its come to a head now. I'm thankful for the mob sometimes. Sometimes it can bypass the bs and political correctness and the soy boys unwilling to confront a problem head on.

Props to the TO's there for handling it, finally. Makes me want to come back to the ATC's. One of the finest tourneys around.

Grippando is the single worst 40k game I've ever played. Aelong is in the top 10 worst. The worst types of jerks are the ones who try to be friendly, all the while pulling out all the tricks to win.

Its guys like them that sucked the joy from 40k for me. I've taken a refreshing break from competitive 40k for a couple years. I miss much of it, the comradery and fun, but I sure dont miss spending tons of money only to run into a character such as those that have no concern for you across the table. I could tell anecdotal stories of some of the top players being terrible people in game, but I'm quite certain I dont have to. All those I have spoken to about it, and it's been many, agree there is a large portion of our community that are more desperate to soothe egos than form friendships.

You dont have to cheat to do well at 40k, or even win...

Personally I am very interested to see who the consistent top tier players are in a year or two after (hopefully) the cheating is reigned in enough for the legit good players to surface instead of the players who are just better at cheating, which seems to be a significant portion of the top tier currently.

For those doubting Rob Baer, just fyi, he also pulled himself out of the local AoS escalation league (about 10 players). He did this because it has a culminating tourny at the end. The community at large would probably never have known had he kept playing etc. So I think you're mistaken to claim PR stunt.

 quickfuze wrote:
For those doubting Rob Baer, just fyi, he also pulled himself out of the local AoS escalation league (about 10 players). He did this because it has a culminating tourny at the end. The community at large would probably never have known had he kept playing etc. So I think you're mistaken to claim PR stunt.

At the end of the day, actions speak louder than words. Regardless of how he truly feels (something we can never know) he's doing the right thing. Team Happy, on the other hand, has shown that they do not truly accept responsibility and instead, they somehow feel cheated. I know that people that honestly make those mistakes and regret it do everything to make it right. They do things like DQing themselves, self-imposed suspensions, ect. People that don't really feel bad make excuses and blame others.

Maybe team "Happy" will keep this in mind next time they go tournamenting and become very vigilant in their list building and double check their lists and stop doing shady things at tournaments, then they won't feel so cheated.

 vonjankmon wrote:
Personally I am very interested to see who the consistent top tier players are in a year or two after (hopefully) the cheating is reigned in enough for the legit good players to surface instead of the players who are just better at cheating, which seems to be a significant portion of the top tier currently.

It will be the same players. The cheaty players have not won consistently in any singles events in the first place.

DJ3 wrote:


This, in my opinion, is the main disconnect between the actual tournament community and the online community that has sprung up around it--and is also a fair explanation of why the online community is so gung-ho over "zero tolerance" policies. They don't see how badly this would affect everyone in the community, because they don't see how frequently these sorts of mistakes occur.

Actually I think the community of players NEVER having to come in contact with the likes of the Team Happy members ever again would be a great thing for the community. You can clamor to your attempts at innocence all day long, but there is also a toxicity in most of the team members personalities that really have no place in this hobby; something that goes far beyond just the events at ATC, LVO, etc.

MVBrandt wrote:

 vonjankmon wrote:
Personally I am very interested to see who the consistent top tier players are in a year or two after (hopefully) the cheating is reigned in enough for the legit good players to surface instead of the players who are just better at cheating, which seems to be a significant portion of the top tier currently.

It will be the same players. The cheaty players have not won consistently in any singles events in the first place.

Bwahahahahahahahahaha... *clears throat*

Bwahahahahahhahahahah....

perrin23860 wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:

 vonjankmon wrote:
Personally I am very interested to see who the consistent top tier players are in a year or two after (hopefully) the cheating is reigned in enough for the legit good players to surface instead of the players who are just better at cheating, which seems to be a significant portion of the top tier currently.

It will be the same players. The cheaty players have not won consistently in any singles events in the first place.

Bwahahahahahahahahaha... *clears throat*

Bwahahahahahhahahahah....

I won't bite. LOL!

perrin23860 wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:

 vonjankmon wrote:
Personally I am very interested to see who the consistent top tier players are in a year or two after (hopefully) the cheating is reigned in enough for the legit good players to surface instead of the players who are just better at cheating, which seems to be a significant portion of the top tier currently.

It will be the same players. The cheaty players have not won consistently in any singles events in the first place.

Bwahahahahahahahahaha... *clears throat*

Bwahahahahahhahahahah....

Tis true, I cheats all the times.

Didn't Tony Kopach win NOVA one year with a list that was 3 points over? Also, vonjankmon didn't specify people winning singles events, he specified "top tier players". Looks to me like a few of the players who are generally accepted as being top tier have a fairly shady reputation - though by no means all of them.

I'm reminded of a baltimore GT in the early 2000s.

We got in friday evening and the open play area had a table with about 40 people crowded around it cheering.

There was a fellow throwing 2d6 and asking people around him to call out a number, and everytime he threw the dice the 2d6 equalled that number.

He was also back then considered a "top tier tournament player".

In a game where people bring their own dice, stretchy tape ran rampant, and guys know how to throw the dice in ways that they can guarantee their rolls nearly every time, I came to the conclusion after chasing the tournament dragon for ten years that most of the top tier players that I knew also knew how to influence rules arguments and were fairly adept at always rolling what they needed when the chips were down.

It will be the same players. The cheaty players have not won consistently in any singles events in the first place.

So, not only do you know who the "cheaty" players are, you know them well enough to say if they do or do not win events consistently, which by the why means they do win events, and organizers still allow them to enter events and ruin the experience for other people. You are only confirming what people in this thread already knew, but it's nice to hear it from the horses mouth.

Actually by and large no. It's also important to note that most of the reactions along those lines sound so naive to the reality of what a major tournament is, who it's for, and what it feels like that I'm not especially inspired to reply. Those certain tournaments are just about TOs idolizing or enabling cheaters are, well, wrong.

auticus wrote:


I'm reminded of a baltimore GT in the early 2000s.

We got in friday evening and the open play area had a table with about 40 people crowded around it cheering.

There was a fellow throwing 2d6 and asking people around him to call out a number, and everytime he threw the dice the 2d6 equalled that number.

He was also back then considered a "top tier tournament player".

There was some videos on the internet some years back made by a hustler that taught how to cheat dice rolls. He prolly watched those videos too.

 Primark G wrote:


There was some videos on the internet some years back made by a hustler that taught how to cheat dice rolls. He prolly watched those videos too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAGFoYRfg3o

Friend showed me this. Opened my eyes to what people can do!

This is why Vegas requires throwing the length of the table with a bounce of the wall.

It's also why competitive events should be providing the dice (and mandating dice towers)

I guess I should have been a bit more clear. I did not mean to imply that *all* of the top tier players, or even most are cheaters. However I think it is fair to say that the members of Team Happy would all be considered top tier for the number of repeated times they have both as a team and individually placed in the top 5 at major events. It is also important to note how often cheating and/or questionable actions have been associated with those players. My personal experience in the tournament scene 7-8 years ago before my daughter was born and I stopped playing competitively for the most part also reinforces my feeling that at least some top tier players are considered that due to shady actions and/or outright cheating.

I think the recent events and the (IMO) very healthy response from tournament organizers will lead to some change in the players that are generally considered to be top tier by their performances at major events. Even just from there being more judges and a more active roll from them without any consideration to cheating as their presence may cut down on what I refer to as "aggressive" opponents who while not cheating walk the edge of bullying very often in my experience in a conscious or subconscious attempt to put their opponent off their game.

Even the addition of chess clocks will have an interesting (and I think positive) effect on the tournament scene as there has definitely been an over arching meta around only playing 3-4 rounds in a tournament game. I knew players 15+ years (god I am getting old...) that based their armies and play around that fact and I imagine things have not changed since.

Actually by and large no.

Then why did you make a statement that implies you do know who the cheaty players are and how often they win?

It's also important to note that most of the reactions along those lines sound so naive to the reality of what a major tournament is, who it's for, and what it feels like that I'm not especially inspired to reply. Those certain tournaments are just about TOs idolizing or enabling cheaters are, well, wrong.

When did I state any of this? I go to tournaments to have a good time. Bottom line, life makes it hard to get games in without carving out a weekend to do it,but the fact of the matter is there are a lot of people like Team Happy at these events,and people are sick of nothing being done about it. ATC excluded. I pay just as much to go as Team Happy and to have my experience ruined because organizers don't want to put their foot down is bull. If these events are truly just about socializing,and having a good time like you post all the time, I have a challenge you. Next nova score individual games only, do not track overall, pair players randomly, and randomly raffle of prize support throughout the event. If Nova is really just about getting together with friends this would be perfect for everyone right?

 ChainswordHeretic wrote:

Actually by and large no.

Then why did you make a statement that implies you do know who the cheaty players are and how often they win?

It's also important to note that most of the reactions along those lines sound so naive to the reality of what a major tournament is, who it's for, and what it feels like that I'm not especially inspired to reply. Those certain tournaments are just about TOs idolizing or enabling cheaters are, well, wrong.

When did I state any of this? I go to tournaments to have a good time. Bottom line, life makes it hard to get games in without carving out a weekend to do it,but the fact of the matter is there are a lot of people like Team Happy at these events,and people are sick of nothing being done about it. ATC excluded. I pay just as much to go as Team Happy and to have my experience ruined because organizers don't want to put their foot down is bull. If these events are truly just about socializing,and having a good time like you post all the time, I have a challenge you. Next nova score individual games only, do not track overall, pair players randomly, and randomly raffle of prize support throughout the event. If Nova is really just about getting together with friends this would be perfect for everyone right?

I wasn't saying no to that.

And at NOVA that's precisely how most of the 40k events work. And we do raffle off hundreds of prizes randomly every single day, several times a day. We also present an invitational (to which known problems were not invited) for the most hardcore, a GT format built for every player type, etc. So yeah, it is perfect for everyone.

MVBrandt wrote:

 vonjankmon wrote:
Personally I am very interested to see who the consistent top tier players are in a year or two after (hopefully) the cheating is reigned in enough for the legit good players to surface instead of the players who are just better at cheating, which seems to be a significant portion of the top tier currently.

It will be the same players. The cheaty players have not won consistently in any singles events in the first place.

Considering your own event happens soon this may just be one of the poorest statements you could make. Your role isn't to tell people who the winners will be before your event has occurred, this is the reason why folks scoff at the insider relationships some players have with TO's. It only looks worse considered NOVA has a less then desirable track record when it comes to cheating caught on stream and illegal lists. I mean folks just have to look at last years thread where you said this: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/714710.page#9590155

MVBrandt wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:
DJ's comments are excellent.

The worst thing about tournaments are the condescending/presumptive trolls who don't go to tournaments.

Actually your comments have been more condescending then most. In fact most of this debate was cause by your initial response which basically amounted to "You didn't attend? so off with your concerns..." which is a poor way to handle something like this. Myself and others have not blown this into any sort of major issue beyond stating it should at the very least be taken seriously and looked into. It's cheap and easy to just call us all the same mob though.

Players should know their own rules and despite that mistakes sill still happen but for me the most insane thing is him not having any of the needed rules to play with him. Hand wave that all you want, that is and has been a requirement of even the most laid back RTT since the games been out. You know something is off when a player actually asks a judge off table for a source he is supposed to have.

They have been. People pay far too much attention to the top table, and far too much attention to people making honest mistakes in events where their primary reason for being there is *not* "winning the tournament." I'm looking down my nose a bit because peanut gallery snipers who carp for multiple pages of thread on minor rules gaffes by the smallest % of players (the "top" guys) at massive events are a persistent problem in the hobby which often keeps interested passers-by from trying out what amounts to a giant gaming party for charity all weekend long. I *definitely* do not think all that highly of those who make too big a deal of what happens on the top tables. IDK what else to tell you. It is DEFINITELY hand wavey on my part; this issue is so comparatively irrelevant that I'm not exactly pleased with how much conversational space it's taken up. "I'm gonna do this thing." You're doing it wrong. "Oh, ok, I'll stop."

That's you resorting to the very same straw-man of creating some fake mob to pin all the blame to, whats more hilarious is the fact that you are applauding DJ3, the same guy now in hot water at another tournament.

Curtis is defending his real life friends. He'd be a gak person if he abandoned them over a game.

I think the point I would generally make to you is that when you claim insider relationships or unfair advantages, I stop listening. It's conspiratorial at best and stupid on the average. I have as close a friendship with regular last place finishers as first, and building relationships is a huge part of why NOVA exists. I met my wife through a regular winless buddy I met by his attendance at NOVA.

And it's not a strawman to say the top tables don't matter very much. They don't. The legitimacy of the event isn't based upon who wins bracket 1. The GT represents 250 of 2500 attendees, most of whom themselves aren't affected by whoever the top players are. And NOVA really doesn't have a long history of cheating and illegal lists getting by. Alan's was permanently altered and penalized the moment his error was caught, for example. No fuss, no frills.

Ultimately the toxicity in this community comes from two small sources - douches who can't win without cheating, gotcha calls, clock hogging, etc, and yet who only affect a tiny handful of games, and gakky internet warriors who demand blood over their actions while ignoring and detracting from the experience of the vast, vast majority just looking to enjoy some fun games while building friendships and raising money for charity.

And if you think we as TOs ignore the douches and choose to do nothing, well, as per above we already know conspiratorial naivete is a running trend. We're just not as interested in publicizing them as much as the internet wishes.