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MVBrandt wrote:

And if you think we as TOs ignore the douches and choose to do nothing, well, as per above we already know conspiratorial naivete is a running trend. We're just not as interested in publicizing them as much as the internet wishes.

"Not only must Justice be done; it must also be seen to be done." (paraphrased, the original was a little more wordy)

Failure to do that will offend the sense of natural justice. The sense of injustice is not the fault of the mass of the players, it is the failure of those who do not apply that principle of natural justice. The sense of injustice and the anger that goes with it that then persists is just a consequence of that failure, an entirely predictable consequence.

If you have been "quietly having a word" as a means to resolve cheating and sportsmanship issues then you have unwittingly become part of the problem. I am sorry to be so blunt but you really do need to understand the drawbacks of that approach and how it can create festering problems.

For me this all boils down to how it has affected my community. Most recently a couple of TOs have completely ruined my gaming experience through the same kind of gak team happy has been accused of or worse.

End all be all is if you are in a position to represent our community, be that an online personality, top table player or organizer/enforcer you have a higher responsibility to be upstanding and go out of your way from allowing these "mistakes" to happen. You owe it to the entire community for allowing you to be where you are in the community to promote and attract new players. Garbage like top players repeatedly making mistakes that are likely cheating, or TOs who sell overpriced armies to new players (local issue) or stores allowing complete a-holes to run events and ostracize players who travel 2+ hours multiple times a month to support a store because the community was previously worth it.

It sounds like a rant but there is a serious problem in the community with toxic personalities in positions of influence. I was ecstatic to get back into this game when 8th dropped. I finally got to join my first league and because one high level tournament player (ironically I believe he is friends with one of the team happy members) pulled some super shady gak and lost his first points in the league against me the TO his close friend went out of his way to lie about the game and scare other players from playing me which full tilt made it impossible for me to get my last games in the league in. That gak is not ok, a high level player who previously judged and taught me this edition "forgetting" rules on and off in a single match to their benefit is absolute garbage. The freaking apologists in this thread trying to excuse this toxic behavior and flat out telling people to get over it its always been around is the reason 40k suffers as a community. Its that toxicity that makes it hard for people like me with disabilities to find a play group, its why there are so few female gamers and its why the alleged "casual" tournaments are filled with unpainted waac armies with a-holes who only want their meager prizes at the cost of advancing our community to the game we all want it to be.

happy_inquisitor wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:

And if you think we as TOs ignore the douches and choose to do nothing, well, as per above we already know conspiratorial naivete is a running trend. We're just not as interested in publicizing them as much as the internet wishes.

"Not only must Justice be done; it must also be seen to be done." (paraphrased, the original was a little more wordy)

Failure to do that will offend the sense of natural justice. The sense of injustice is not the fault of the mass of the players, it is the failure of those who do not apply that principle of natural justice. The sense of injustice and the anger that goes with it that then persists is just a consequence of that failure, an entirely predictable consequence.

If you have been "quietly having a word" as a means to resolve cheating and sportsmanship issues then you have unwittingly become part of the problem. I am sorry to be so blunt but you really do need to understand the drawbacks of that approach and how it can create festering problems.

What kills me about this, is he's complaining about the "naive conspirators" driving business from his event, and his response to that is to take to a public forum, and insult the people who he's trying to bring in. Not at all trying to listen to what they are saying, or explaining what is, or could, be done about it. Nope, just "you all have no clue what you're talking about. You're just angry man children running a cabal trying to take money away from charity."

Life events forced me to cancel my planned participation of NOVA this year, but I'm glad now. I'll never try to attend again as well.

Seeing how the team deals with the player base, I see why their refund policy is so draconian. They must have to deal with a ton of them.

 djones520 wrote:

happy_inquisitor wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:

And if you think we as TOs ignore the douches and choose to do nothing, well, as per above we already know conspiratorial naivete is a running trend. We're just not as interested in publicizing them as much as the internet wishes.

"Not only must Justice be done; it must also be seen to be done." (paraphrased, the original was a little more wordy)

Failure to do that will offend the sense of natural justice. The sense of injustice is not the fault of the mass of the players, it is the failure of those who do not apply that principle of natural justice. The sense of injustice and the anger that goes with it that then persists is just a consequence of that failure, an entirely predictable consequence.

If you have been "quietly having a word" as a means to resolve cheating and sportsmanship issues then you have unwittingly become part of the problem. I am sorry to be so blunt but you really do need to understand the drawbacks of that approach and how it can create festering problems.

What kills me about this, is he's complaining about the "naive conspirators" driving business from his event, and his response to that is to take to a public forum, and insult the people who he's trying to bring in. Not at all trying to listen to what they are saying, or explaining what is, or could, be done about it. Nope, just "you all have no clue what you're talking about. You're just angry man children running a cabal trying to take money away from charity."

Life events forced me to cancel my planned participation of NOVA this year, but I'm glad now. I'll never try to attend again as well.

Seeing how the team deals with the player base, I see why their refund policy is so draconian. They must have to deal with a ton of them.

I'm actually not trying to bring in people who believe the actions of the few define and/or should define the behavior of the many. Problematic players are a routine discussion point and action basis for most of the major TOs. Changing the entirety of successful, fun events based upon their actions is a nonstarter. Thinking their actions reflect a meaningful % of tournament attendees is, indeed, either naive or just willfully angry.

And I don't feel as if business is being driven from the event, if you want to call it business. I feel more as if there are plenty of players who *don't* attend events or haven't that are driven from the broader concept of going to them by the amount that people overblow the actions of said few into a common occurrence across the width and breadth of an event. There are MANY local-level players who hear things like "Tournaments are full of cheating WAAC jerks who the TOs lovingly support and enable" simply choose not to try out an AdeptiCon or LVO or NOVA, and in so choosing may miss out on all kinds of fun (most of which isn't even found in the games themselves, so much as the awesome time held around them). NOVA sold out faster than ever this year, the con's at its biggest yet, it'll once again be a place where we put friendship and social connection above all else. BUT how many people are missing out on the fun b/c of people making a bigger deal out of the "top cheating guys" than the rest? Certainly more than are put off by simply banning, dq'ing, or otherwise penalizing cheaters when you catch them and doubling down on the penalty by not giving them airtime about it.

There's a large difference between ignoring cheaters and demonizing the entirety of tournaments due to them. The moral outrage about events has little place explicitly b/c the vast majority of those who comprise and thus make up the experience at any one event are so damn fine as human beings, from the undefeated to the winless, that it does them (and those who hear the exaggerations and thus skip on their chance to meet them) a disservice how much of a deal we make about it. I'll eternally be frustrated by our inability as people in general to weigh the good and the bad to their equivalently fair degree. And if your decision to attend the NOVA Open as a convention in the future is entirely based around the fact I won't jump the public outrage train and think it's naive to brand tournaments as rife with horrible people and thus in need of vast changes in how the community bands together to ban human beings ... well, alright. And the charity bit isn't a shield. The 40K GT represents 10% of our attendance (which is consequential, but not the sole focus of the con), and 90+% of those attending it have fantastic games and great times. It is invariable we'll get one or two problem folks each year, and will continue to adjudicate them as best we can (such as by denying them future invitations, banning them, giving them losses, removing units from their armies, etc. - all of which we've done in the past), but I'm probably never going to sustain outrage over a team of guys who got disqualified over the larger purpose and focus of why the con exists (Which is NOT to heavily regulate EVERYONE in order to vainly try and prevent 3-5 guys from being dicks). Stopping cheats and donkey-caves matters, and should always matter. Making your entire policy and behavioral practice oriented purely around that tiny % isn't the way to handle your events and cons as a whole, however.

I'll reiterate it, however - if you think people like Reece, myself, Shane, and other major con organizers are involved in some sort of "be nice to our elite buddies" effort/conspiracy to ignore cheaters and enable them by empowering them over the little guys ... you're either naive or badly misinformed.

"Please trust us we are dealing with cheaters, despite the same people who have been caught showing up back again time after time".

To's are getting demonized because the cheaters keep coming back to try again year after year.

@MVBrandt I have a sincere question, are any of the members of team happy attending the NOVA Open or worse yet the personal invite only event? Because if they are, and especially the Invitational, you surely can see why people might raise an eyebrow or two when space is limited and there are folks on a wait list watching known cheaters walk into another event.

Your claims about every local scene are also hysterical. Your not even supporting that claim with anecdotal evidence at this point. Your as usual claiming folks with any opinion opposed to your own are either liars or haters from some ginned up mob. So hateful that they somehow dissuade up and comers from big events with lies. What a farce. In reality, play in enough events (I've played 40k since 96) and eventually you do run into the cheaters or A-holes, and once you do and you realize nothing is even attempted to remedy it in any meaningful way, it definitely will dissuade somebody from spending thousands of dollars and using valuable time off from family if there is another chance at having your experience soiled. Forgiveness goes a long way, but that requires some good faith from those with the power to prevent the cheats. Your attitude from day one has been to wave away the concerns of the community while the temple behind you has smoke coming from it, only this time folks can even see the flames and you still vomit the same garbage talking points and hostilities. Your not even polite.

MVBrandt wrote:
I'm actually not trying to bring in people who believe the actions of the few define and/or should define the behavior of the many. Problematic players are a routine discussion point and action basis for most of the major TOs. Changing the entirety of successful, fun events based upon their actions is a nonstarter. Thinking their actions reflect a meaningful % of tournament attendees is, indeed, either naive or just willfully angry.

I think you're misunderstanding the objections of players like myself. We DON'T think that the behavior reflects most, or even a large portion of tournament attendees. Just a few.

MVBrandt wrote:
BUT how many people are missing out on the fun b/c of people making a bigger deal out of the "top cheating guys" than the rest? Certainly more than are put off by simply banning, dq'ing, or otherwise penalizing cheaters when you catch them and doubling down on the penalty by not giving them airtime about it.

I would offer that fewer people would be put off by letting the community know that " banning, dq'ing, or otherwise penalizing cheaters" is something that actually happens. You're basically making my point for me though, you're just wrong that not publicizing it (especially when everyone's already seen the offense on tape) is somehow a harsher punishment or more effective.

MVBrandt wrote:
The moral outrage about events has little place explicitly b/c the vast majority of those who comprise and thus make up the experience at any one event are so damn fine as human beings, from the undefeated to the winless, that it does them (and those who hear the exaggerations and thus skip on their chance to meet them) a disservice how much of a deal we make about it. I'll eternally be frustrated by our inability as people in general to weigh the good and the bad to their equivalently fair degree.

Again, very few are saying tournaments are bad, and should never be attended. We're saying the few bad apples need to be removed from the barrel.

MVBrandt wrote:
I'll reiterate it, however - if you think people like Reece, myself, Shane, and other major con organizers are involved in some sort of "be nice to our elite buddies" effort/conspiracy to ignore cheaters and enable them by empowering them over the little guys ... you're either naive or badly misinformed.

Actions speak louder than words. There has been cheating or at least "shady play" at the top tables of LVO, Adepticon, ATC, the London GT, and yes, even NOVA. And in the most recent example, it's been by individuals who have a recent history of it...an incident to which the primary response from Reece was "Tony's actually a great guy" and from you was "move along, nothing to see here". Celebrity 40K players often apear alongside TOs in podcasts and blogs, or even on teams with them in tournaments. So, I don't think you can fault people for at best being a little bit cynical.

MVBrandt wrote:

There's a large difference between ignoring cheaters and demonizing the entirety of tournaments due to them.

BTW this demonstrates how willfully blind your being. Nobody in this thread has demonized any events. In fact, until your appearance people were supporting ATC's TO and congratulating them on being the first major event to show some balls. Apparently that was your queue to feel insecure for, SOME reason. I wonder why?

 Red Corsair wrote:
@MVBrandt I have a sincere question, are any of the members of team happy attending the NOVA Open or worse yet the personal invite only event? Because if they are, and especially the Invitational, you surely can see why people might raise an eyebrow or two when space is limited and there are folks on a wait list watching known cheaters walk into another event.

Curtis is invited. The others were not. Invitations were also in this and previous years denied to cheaters from previous years. So unless you've heard Curtis is a cheater ...

MVBrandt wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
@MVBrandt I have a sincere question, are any of the members of team happy attending the NOVA Open or worse yet the personal invite only event? Because if they are, and especially the Invitational, you surely can see why people might raise an eyebrow or two when space is limited and there are folks on a wait list watching known cheaters walk into another event.

Curtis is invited. The others were not. Invitations were also in this and previous years denied to cheaters from previous years. So unless you've heard Curtis is a cheater ...

Thats good news, what about the Open?

The Long War had an interesting podcast where they call out Team Happy for their BS, and supposedly they actually played them so it's not just hearsay, it's actually "This guy lied about XYZ"

 greyknight12 wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:
I'll reiterate it, however - if you think people like Reece, myself, Shane, and other major con organizers are involved in some sort of "be nice to our elite buddies" effort/conspiracy to ignore cheaters and enable them by empowering them over the little guys ... you're either naive or badly misinformed.

Actions speak louder than words. There has been cheating or at least "shady play" at the top tables of LVO, Adepticon, ATC, the London GT, and yes, even NOVA. And in the most recent example, it's been by individuals who have a recent history of it...an incident to which the primary response from Reece was "Tony's actually a great guy" and from you was "move along, nothing to see here". Celebrity 40K players often apear alongside TOs in podcasts and blogs, or even on teams with them in tournaments. So, I don't think you can fault people for at best being a little bit cynical.

This. I do not personally think there is any conspiracy, but the simple fact that TOs such as the above claim it's not prevalent at the same time these cheating players have continued to attend (and win) many of the events we are talking about can only be interpreted so many ways. Either they are ignorant of the cheating, they are turning a blind eye to it, or they don't care (which is basically tacit approval). So far the majority of claims we have seen are that they don't think it's as prevalent as others would suggest which goes contrary to the actual results of said events. No offense to MVBrandt or any other TO, but your refusal to deal with it adequately to date seems to imply that you are letting your friendships with these players override your duty as a TO to enforce fair and honest play. Now that the issue is out in the open thanks to online video streaming and other evidence it is imperative you stop defending them and restore the reputations of your events. Do that and your events will benefit significantly both from a player standpoint where they know the games will be enjoyable and fair and as a TO where you have fewer administrative headaches such as these to deal with. Fail to do that and eventually players will have had enough. It's one thing to hear about the issue via hearsay. It's another to have it documented and proven. The former can be excused away. The latter is what kills events no matter how popular they may be.

 Red Corsair wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
@MVBrandt I have a sincere question, are any of the members of team happy attending the NOVA Open or worse yet the personal invite only event? Because if they are, and especially the Invitational, you surely can see why people might raise an eyebrow or two when space is limited and there are folks on a wait list watching known cheaters walk into another event.

Curtis is invited. The others were not. Invitations were also in this and previous years denied to cheaters from previous years. So unless you've heard Curtis is a cheater ...

Thats good news, what about the Open?

No different

 Primark G wrote:
I would never take the word of an obviously bitter loser.

Lol nice try troll.

As for why you should believe me? I don't care if you do. I stated fact, believe it or not it is up to you.

Banning *does* happen.

Let's call this specifically banned cheater, "Handle Bar Mustache", HBM (he'd shaved it off long since). I don't name him outright because he is trying to become an attorney IRL, so outting him might be a bad idea, slander/lawsuit-wise, but one can figure it out. Ask me in person at BAO next weekend. I will point him out.

At Game Empire Pasadena, he was banned 4 years ago for goofery at RTTs, back in, IIRC, 5e. I have played him a couple times over the years and he doesn't try things with me because I scolded him the first time he tried and he played straight with me the few times since (like one game every 2 or 3 years).

At one GEP RTT he tried this:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/423738.page

Scroll down to Uncle Fred's story for the casino dice on a Blast Template.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

A different anecdote, same guy:
When GE Pasadena started the annual Hammer of Wrath GT, the TO allowed him to come back for that (they're not buddies). HBM was at Top Table, but was going to lose if the game ended on turn 5 (a recurring theme, I know). He tried a shenanigan to go another Turn and the TO nixed that (something about his wife rolling the dice, and it it landed in the corner ... a story better told in person). The game ended and HBM lost. The TO informed him that he'd crossed the line (my words) and he was banned, there is a little more to it, but again, catch me at a tourney.
I think it's 2 years now, GEP has had a new TO (2 years! time flies!). HBM came back and played in a couple RTTs that spring (had a game with me, in which he played straight). But the complaints from others started again, goofy LOS calls, forgetting this, etc.
I had tried to talk to this guy for about 2 years, to get him to change, to acknowledge his WAAC behavior. I failed.
So, I spoke to many attendees & the TO to make sure he was banned, and ultimately, the new TO (no longer new) banned him again. While I try to take some credit for this, it was ultimately the TO's call.
I have word of mouth that he's been banned from an Irvine venue's RTTs and one or two others in Southern Calif.

Another player was banned for slow play at many of GEP's RTTs, further back ... 3 years perhaps (6e and 7e), by the original TO. He'd been warned many times. The TO came up with the mechanic of "if a game didn't complete Turn 4, it would be a loss for both."
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Along the second part of this thread, what to do when an illegal list shows up. I will share this personal anecdote:

At last year's BAO, I ran a Yannarii list, without Yvraine or the other two. I'd missed the FAQ released the previous Monday; it'd stated that one of the 3 Ynnari HQs had to be in the list. I had been running the list without any of Y, Y or V HQs for months. My 3rd round opponent caught it, post game. Sunday, he went to the judges with it. I didn't hear their conversation. During my round 4 game, Pablo came up and let me know that I could continue playing my list as Eldar, without Soul Burst. My win over that opponent was reversed. I accepted it, and my present opponent, wanted to continue our game with good cheer. As I recall, my most fun game at BAO 2017.

According to some posts in this thread, what I'd done would worthy of being banned.

As I had lost my first two games, this mistake wasn't going to make the news on the 'Net. However, what if I'd been on Round 5, with 4 wins? What next?
Disqualification? For certain.
Banning? I don't have a reputation as a douche or WAAC player and there is not a trail of Red Flags at events I have played in. The HappyTeam crew has bad reps, Handle Bar Mustache had a bad rep since he won 'Ard Boyz ... 2013?

I probably have a rep as a sub-standard tactician and an Easy Win (drunk, Team BeerHammer, AmIRight?) and far too noisy for a little guy. Feel free to chime on what you know of me.

So, would or should that Ynnari mistake get me canned from FrontlineGaming's next couple events? All ITC events run by Indie TOs? If so, am I entitled to a refund for SoCal Open and LVO? Keep in mind, that at SoCal Open 2017, one list made it to the top table, over 12 points. He was DQ'd during the game, for the whole event. Brandon Grant goes on to Win It All.

I was there. My buddy was crushed that he'd messed up. He doesn't have a rep of bad games behind him. In fact, he's got many Best Sportsman awards (2 from Broadside Bash, I think, and many from GEP RTTs). But, retroactively, would the carpet Banning have been applied in this case?

While we can put down some hard rules of consequences for infractions, there are circumstances individual to each case. I am a 20 yr classroom teacher. I am investigator, wrangler, judge and all that goes with resolving conflicts of 5 to 15 year old kids. I resolve multiple conflicts, daily. I'm telling ya, Rubber Stamp Justice or Right and Wrong punishments just don't pan out in real life instances.

I do encourage a uniform set of expectations for ITC events, with something like, "In fractions can result in, game loss, DQ for the event, and up banning for an indeterminate amount of time.

Remember, I'm for banning HandleBarM from playing 40k ever again. I spent several years trying to get him to see the error of his ways. A lot of people feel similarly about him.

Last, background on me:
I'm Casey of Team BeerHammer. The skinny guy. Well, there is no team;it's just me.

At pretty much every GT I attend, I lose my first game and spend most of the other 4 to 5 games in the kiddie pool. I might come away with 2 wins. I have fun. I've attended every LVO, most BAOs, a couple BroadsideBashes and a few other GTs. I'm a regular at Game Empire Pasadena's RTT and Hammer of Wrath GT.

Perhaps some of you, would post an anecdote of when you'd brought an illegal list, or misused the Greater Good (London GT) or such. Was your infraction worthy of a 12 month ban?

Wayniac wrote:
The Long War had an interesting podcast where they call out Team Happy for their BS, and supposedly they actually played them so it's not just hearsay, it's actually "This guy lied about XYZ"

If you listen to both the long war and this weeks FLG podcast it also is in line with what the long war guys said. Frankie was unknowingly cheated the first round and Team Happy only got caught by juice in round 2 because he happened to check his list. The FLG guys, while they brought it up, didn't really dive into it (i can understand why they are staying out of it, the last thing they want to do is publicly badmouth something that happened at someone's event and all of a sudden come under fire) But at least they are releasing the ITC code of conduct so they are taking action.

Perhaps some of you, would post an anecdote of when you'd brought an illegal list, or misused the Greater Good (London GT) or such. Was your infraction worthy of a 12 month ban?

You're conflating disqualification for banning. Has anyone suggested that people caught making a mistake once be permanently banned from all tournaments? For myself, I've said that people with repeated transgressions should be banned for a year or two from all events. There's a difference between one mistake and a pattern of behavior, which you yourself attest to about certain people. So again, before making a claim like that, can you quote the person who stated that a single infraction should result in a 12-month ban, or anything more besides being disqualified from that one event?

 Chief Librarian Mephiston wrote:

Perhaps some of you, would post an anecdote of when you'd brought an illegal list, or misused the Greater Good (London GT) or such. Was your infraction worthy of a 12 month ban?

You're conflating disqualification for banning. Has anyone suggested that people caught making a mistake once be permanently banned from all tournaments? For myself, I've said that people with repeated transgressions should be banned for a year or two from all events. There's a difference between one mistake and a pattern of behavior, which you yourself attest to about certain people. So again, before making a claim like that, can you quote the person who stated that a single infraction should result in a 12-month ban, or anything more besides being disqualified from that one event?

I'm not combing the two. If you have an illegal list, then you get immediately DQ'd for that game (which happened to me). My question was, 'do we take it further?' For a player going 0-3 no one is going to really care. At a top table (or Top 8, Top 4 or otherwise Last Round playoff) it is going to matter a lot. And this is for a one-off time. Let's say Fran is our illegal list wielder; she's unknown to everyone. Okay, one time DQ for that event. Thanks, Fran, for playing and being a good sport about having been DQ'd as you were about to Win-It-All.

But if it is ... Don ... and Don has a bad reputation. For most of a year, he's had a controversial GT win, multiple complaints at RTTs, and so forth. He commits the same illegal list gaf that Fran does, same result: DQ for that event.

In neither case do I think any of us will disagree that Fran and Don have their points zero'd for the whole thing. To restate without a double negative, will all agree Fran and Don get a 0-6 record with no points. This is not a point of contention. Banning is. Sorry that it wasn't clearer, but that's what's needing to be hashed out.

So, what happens to Don? Does he get a 12 month ban from that event? Let's call it the Barking Bolter GT (called it first, bitches! ). Sure, a TO could pull that trigger, but what if between Fran and Don is KellyAnne (hey, some politics for your day! ) who has only 2 or 3 instances where people have griped about her playing, list infractions. What if K.A. does it? A ban from Barking Bolter RTTs for 6 months?

I am not sure how to answer these.

By now, Saturday, July 21st, we know that Reece & the TOs (he cited the number of 200 or so) are in discussion on this;

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/760790.page (scroll to the bottom)

establishing a "system of guidelines for player conduct and judge responses". They'll prolly establish a set of ... do this many No-Nos and then you could get banned for X time.

I don't get to be in on that discussion.

Oh, to clarify:
My last question in the previous post was not intended to be a "OH yeah?!?! What about you clowns? Wanna throw stones in *your* glass houses?"
Nothing like that; it was more of a "If you had been there, if you have been the player in a DQ type situation, how'd that pan out? Did it seem fair?" Place yourself in the shoes of the one on the judging block < --- gotta be a better term than that. And hearing/reading about it here helps think about how things worked out in Actual Events.

 Brothererekose wrote:
I don't name him outright because he is trying to become an attorney IRL, so outting him might be a bad idea, slander/lawsuit-wise, but one can figure it out.

In the US, "The Truth" is an absolute defense against libel.

In California, we-have anti-SLAPP laws on the books.

As a lawyer, he should know both of those precedents.

If he wants to sue you, then you should be happy to make even more noise about it to maximize the Streisand Effect.

 Anglacon wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I would never take the word of an obviously bitter loser.

Lol nice try troll.

As for why you should believe me? I don't care if you do. I stated fact, believe it or not it is up to you.

You can’t prove it now can you seriously?

 Primark G wrote:

 Anglacon wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I would never take the word of an obviously bitter loser.

Lol nice try troll.

As for why you should believe me? I don't care if you do. I stated fact, believe it or not it is up to you.

You can’t prove it now can you seriously?

And how would you prove it since youre acting like the arbiter of justice here. In that persons situation how would you?

Yeah whats up with these people making models out of paper and toilet rolls for there proxys, i mean seriously i dont understand how even the most relaxed tourny judges would accept that sort of stuff. If i were a judge i would make it you have to have painted models to table top standard, and every individual model has to be atleast 70% GW/FW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im referring to this mainly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItB81DVbRDs&t=1505s


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you look closely you will see one of the models looks to be made out of toilet paper rolls lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I might just make heaps of balls out of tinfoil and use them as Deathguard proxys

That would never fly at a GT.

But even at just any tourny...

No TO should allow it but oh well.

 Stormatious wrote:
Yeah whats up with these people making models out of paper and toilet rolls for there proxys, i mean seriously i dont understand how even the most relaxed tourny judges would accept that sort of stuff. If i were a judge i would make it you have to have painted models to table top standard, and every individual model has to be atleast 70% GW/FW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im referring to this mainly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItB81DVbRDs&t=1505s


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If you look closely you will see one of the models looks to be made out of toilet paper rolls lol.


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I might just make heaps of balls out of tinfoil and use them as Deathguard proxys

Like Cubes of Tzeentch? https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/355017.page

Lol. Demanding people use (x% of) original models was something people were bashing GW for as a symptom of peak-Kirby-ness, while applauding people who got more creative than that. Funny how things change.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Stormatious wrote:
Yeah whats up with these people making models out of paper and toilet rolls for there proxys, i mean seriously i dont understand how even the most relaxed tourny judges would accept that sort of stuff. If i were a judge i would make it you have to have painted models to table top standard, and every individual model has to be atleast 70% GW/FW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Im referring to this mainly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItB81DVbRDs&t=1505s


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you look closely you will see one of the models looks to be made out of toilet paper rolls lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I might just make heaps of balls out of tinfoil and use them as Deathguard proxys

Like Cubes of Tzeentch? https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/355017.page

Lol. Demanding people use (x% of) original models was something people were bashing GW for as a symptom of peak-Kirby-ness, while applauding people who got more creative than that. Funny how things change.

And that is why there should be a "Get TO confirmation first" policy. ATC had one, it just wasn't enforced very well unfortunately.

 Stormatious wrote:
Yeah whats up with these people making models out of paper and toilet rolls for there proxys, i mean seriously i dont understand how even the most relaxed tourny judges would accept that sort of stuff. If i were a judge i would make it you have to have painted models to table top standard, and every individual model has to be atleast 70% GW/FW.

And that is the standard.

Is the paper and toilet roll thing an exaggeration? I didn't watch the ork battle video so maybe I missed what you were pointing out.

At SoCal 2017, when it was stated on several FrontlineGaming videos, unpainted models would get pulled. And they were. The guy's name is Alex (he whooped me at LVO a couple years ago) and he lost a tank or 3. And then went on to be at least 4 wins. I think. He took it in stride and still did well.

At my local scene, the TO has a regulation that unpainted models can play, but they make you ineligible for prize support, and that actually kicked in at last weekend's RTT. The highest points guy got kudos and "Well done!", but 2nd highest points got the top prize (store credit).

There's also the Rule of Cool. If your conversion is awesome, judges let it stand. That's a case by case thing.

Are you refrring to the rouhg riders on alligators? *shrug* They looked like ass, but were clearly people riding animals. 3 color minimum. Bases? "Modeling for advantage" isn't what is used to be, not with templates being gone, so, if I were judging their acceptability, I would have green lighted them (based on the pictures posted in the thread).

 Brothererekose wrote:

Is the paper and toilet roll thing an exaggeration? I didn't watch the ork battle video so maybe I missed what you were pointing out.

The "ork battle video" is a half-decade old Miniwargaming video about a bet/attempt/record-pitch to make the biggest possible Apocalypse game (5th Edition?). It's some 600.000K points per side, and one of the (reasonably painted) Ork Gargants has some paper tubes as part of it's arms.

It's certainly not a tournament and explicitly a thing where people came together to park as many Titans and Gargants and scratchbuilts and whatnot on a football-field-sized play area just to have the claim of having played a game of 40K with over a million points on the table.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Brothererekose wrote:

Is the paper and toilet roll thing an exaggeration? I didn't watch the ork battle video so maybe I missed what you were pointing out.

The "ork battle video" is a half-decade old Miniwargaming video about a bet/attempt/record-pitch to make the biggest possible Apocalypse game (5th Edition?). It's some 600.000K points per side, and one of the (reasonably painted) Ork Gargants has some paper tubes as part of it's arms.

It's certainly not a tournament and explicitly a thing where people came together to park as many Titans and Gargants and scratchbuilts and whatnot on a football-field-sized play area just to have the claim of having played a game of 40K with over a million points on the table.

Thank you for the synopses, SSUp.