Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I think so yeah. Having had a further read of the book something to take note of is that unspecialised models form fireteams consisting of their data cards (eg 2 scions is 1 fireteam, 2 Guardsmen are another), and you gain an extra point of experience if you have 2 or more models from a fireteam be on the board and survive the mission. The upgrades you get from levelling up seem to apply to the whole fireteam as well, so it seems like we'll want to avoid cases of having just 1 type of guy.

That said higher level troops cost more so there's probably some benefit to having a pool of low level troops to go for a quantity over quality approach. For narrative campaigns at least.

Sergeant (Leader) -- 7
Power Sword, Plasma Pistol

Tempestor (Veteran) -- 12
Power Sword, Plasma Pistol

Guardsman (Comms) -- 10
Vox

Scion Gunner (Sniper) -- 13
Hot Shot Volley Gun

Guardsman Gunner -- 8
Flamer

Guardsman Gunner -- 8
Flamer

Guardsman Gunner -- 8
Flamer

Guardsman -- 8
Flamer

5x Guardsmen OR 2x Scion Gunners with Hot Shot Volley, Plasma, or Flamers. (20 Man roster could have 2 of each to tailor, as well as a third volley gun option to swap out for the tempestor to complete the roster of 20)

Opinions?

Trying to clear things up, are Leaders able to issue orders to themselves? Voice of Command states it can issue an order to "another friendly Astra Militarum model", "another" implies a model other than the Leader himself.

Correct. Has to be a different one. However, if you use Sir, Yes Sir! And are within the bubble, it seems it would be likely that it hits the Leader in that scenario.

Played a game on launch day (part of a series they were running in the store but couldn't stay for more) with a sort of quick, slapped-together list because I didn't finish converting all the scions and weapon specialists I wanted to take:

Tempestor - Power Fist, Veteran
Sergeant - Las pistol, Chainsword, Leader
Gunner - Flamer, Demolitions
Guardsman - Vox Caster, Communications
And 13 regular guardsmen.

They were the few, the proud, the many.

Some quick takeaways:
-Demo on flamer is wonderful.
-Low leadership and general weakness means you are more reliant on bunching up to help your leadership tests than other armies, the vox let's your army reroll them so take him and keep him safe!
-With enough bodies you can secure the upper floor of a ruin, firing down with impunity, or, if you can't secure it fully, at least have an easier time controlling who the enemy tries to charge.
-The only order I used the whole game was 'Fix Bayonettes' but I used it every round from 2 on.
-That order, by itself, is a source for awesome upsets, Private Robert got left behind (and definitely wasn't bait) and killed a charging gaunt before combat started proper.
-Hitting on 4+ with the power fist in combat plus getting the benefit of 'Fix Bayonettes' with insane pen and multiple damage he killed everything he came into contact with (except the lictor who took a mortal wound, and then another from rifle hit from Private Robert before the three of them got hit by a page marine's flamer (also demolitions!)) the Tempestor didn't even need a better gun - didn't really benefit from veteran either.

Overall it felt like they were sticking in relatively well, until the plague marines on the other side of the table finished wiping out the Deathwatch and swept into the ruins I was using as a fire base - at that point stuck between the tyranid remnant (half dead) and the death guard (missing two zombies) I took enough wounds (and deaths) to require a bottle test and at that point failed it hard. I elected to withdraw and roll to see who'd live: all but one hopped right back up.

Would you say regular guardsmen can hold their own if they gang up on targets in melee from what you saw?

That is my biggest concern so far, other than tooling a sarge for CQC we really don't have much in terms of melee. My only idea for missions like the hostage taking one was "throw guardsmen at it until the problem goes away".

Strictly speaking on law of averages it takes four guardsmen to strip a wound off of a guardsman, not even counting the t-shirt save, and it takes four scions to do the same, and that's just to take the first flesh wound test.

At one point I had my guardsmen leap down from the upper floor, shoot and charge a few remaining gants, they missed everything spectacularly.

In CC the Tempestor is the best we've got, with two attacks, a 50% chance to hit with the power fist, which is what he needs to get the str, penetration and damage potential to make that hit count. Relative to what other teams will use as a beatsticks in the hostage mission he can't stand toe to toe. Both players will try to use the CP consuming abilities and charges to try to attack first, but you can tip the scales further by having a sergeant issue FB to him.

Another thing I noticed is that it's pretty easy to get that first mortal wound and keep chugging along, and it's also very easy to position yourself to single out those wounded soldiers. You you can improve your odds further by going after surviving wounded enemies.

So having had a game where I tested out that scion list I have to say i'm not overly impressed with plasma guns, there's so many -1's to hit that i never really felt safe overcharging them and given they were scion's I wasn't particularly thrilled at the potential of a 5th of list to kill itself. That said I was quite happy with how my volleyguns performed for the most part, I had 1 with the heavy specialism and he had a merry time running and gunning his way up the board, putting flesh wounds on a couple of models. oh and comm's specialist as expected is pretty damn useful, the help with nerve tests and getting a volleygun to hit on 2's help's a lot with all the -1's about.

I am fairly sure they made it so plasma explodes on a natural one only

stratigo wrote:
I am fairly sure they made it so plasma explodes on a natural one only

Correct.

One thing which disturbes me is a scion with a vox.
In WH40k alongside with vox caster I need to take hot-shot las pistol and optionally take hot-shot lasgun (two weapons and vox), While in Kill Team I don;t have to take las pistol to vox caster... This is kinda disturbing as model for vox scion has its right hand busy with telephone and "free" left hands in sprue are the ones for plasma gunner (great pointy finger plasma pose ). I hope they allow to take las-pistol alongside vox in FAQ

Gnollu wrote:
One thing which disturbes me is a scion with a vox.
In WH40k alongside with vox caster I need to take hot-shot las pistol and optionally take hot-shot lasgun (two weapons and vox), While in Kill Team I don;t have to take las pistol to vox caster... This is kinda disturbing as model for vox scion has its right hand busy with telephone and "free" left hands in sprue are the ones for plasma gunner (great pointy finger plasma pose ). I hope they allow to take las-pistol alongside vox in FAQ

What I’m doing is just taking one of the wrapped-up hot-shot lasguns and incorporating it into the Vox. I have this same problem with the medic Scion. I’m magnetizing, so the Scion medic has his medic supplies, even though it’s not an item, and his lasgun will be wrapped up on his pack.

 Apple Peel wrote:

What I’m doing is just taking one of the wrapped-up hot-shot lasguns and incorporating it into the Vox. I have this same problem with the medic Scion. I’m magnetizing, so the Scion medic has his medic supplies, even though it’s not an item, and his lasgun will be wrapped up on his pack.

Yea, but what about his left hand then? Put las-pistol which is a no go in kill team? Or pointy finger and therefore not have las-pistol in case of normal Wh40k game? ;D

Gnollu wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

What I’m doing is just taking one of the wrapped-up hot-shot lasguns and incorporating it into the Vox. I have this same problem with the medic Scion. I’m magnetizing, so the Scion medic has his medic supplies, even though it’s not an item, and his lasgun will be wrapped up on his pack.

Yea, but what about his left hand then? Put las-pistol which is a no go in kill team? Or pointy finger and therefore not have las-pistol in case of normal Wh40k game? ;D

Just build him with the pistol and wrapped up Hotshot, it would take a very particular brand of a**hole to insist that it's not a legal model. No one should have any issue's with you stripping weapons off a unit and if they try and take issue with it just declare that you built the model for normal 40k, that it's a legal 40k model and that the only difference between killteam and the 40k versions is that you can't use the pistol, if they still try and make an issue of it just walk away and find someone to play with who isn't a dick.

 Peregrine wrote:

stratigo wrote:
I am fairly sure they made it so plasma explodes on a natural one only

Correct.

Ah, I wasn't aware of that, makes me feel a bit better about overcharging them.

With that in mind I was thinking of making the following change, drop the non specialist scion plasma and pick up two guardsmen with flamer's instead, the amount of -1's to hit is pretty obnoxius especially if there's any units or strats with additional -1's to hit in play player's will go a fair way to dealing with that and help get some more wounds through with some luck. So the list would look like

Tempestor with powerfist/Bolt pistol - 12pt's (Leader)
Scion gunner with volleygun- 13 pts (Heavy)
Scion Gunner with volleygun - 13 pts
Scion Gunner with plasmagun- 13 pts (Sniper)
Scion with Hotshot/Voxcaster- 14 pts (Comms)
Scion with Hotshot -9 pts
Scion with Hotshot -9 pts
Guardsmen with flamer- 8 pts
Guardsmen with flamer- 8 pts

Only thing's i'm still considering is whether to give the Tempestor a plasma pistol, pro's is it's a plasma and it gives him a bit more bite, con's is that pistol's aren't that useful and the extra point it costs would put me right on the limit and make it easier for my opponents to score an extra command point in the first round. Other point of consideration is that i'm not sure if i should give up the sniper of heavy specialisation in order to get the demo spec on one of the flamer's, demo looks to be very very good with a potential +2 to wound against obscured targets but sniper keeps the plasma safe when overcharging and means the free order can be spent on something else and heavy let's you be aggressive with the volleygun, pushing up into half range without any issues.

So how are you guys approaching Take Prisoners? While a Tempestor/Sergeant can (relatively) hold their own in melee, it's really a rough mission, especially against things like Hormagaunts, Reivers, Plague Marines, etc.

Requizen wrote:
So how are you guys approaching Take Prisoners? While a Tempestor/Sergeant can (relatively) hold their own in melee, it's really a rough mission, especially against things like Hormagaunts, Reivers, Plague Marines, etc.

Take prisoners usually comes down to the last model anyways since it isn’t too hard to cluster up.

Gnollu wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

What I’m doing is just taking one of the wrapped-up hot-shot lasguns and incorporating it into the Vox. I have this same problem with the medic Scion. I’m magnetizing, so the Scion medic has his medic supplies, even though it’s not an item, and his lasgun will be wrapped up on his pack.

Yea, but what about his left hand then? Put las-pistol which is a no go in kill team? Or pointy finger and therefore not have las-pistol in case of normal Wh40k game? ;D

IG codex was FAQ'd to allow vox and Medics to carry lasguns.

You may have me to thank for that. I bugged them about it several times because there are models they have pictures of with the lasguns on their back but they wouldn't use them. Never managed to get them to give it to the Sarge but at least I got a small victory there.

Tried today kill team made of vox, sarg with bolt pistol and 18 guardsmen...

I played against SM player so usually 5+ to hit, 5+ to wound and 3+ save for oponent.
Without FRFSRF for squad of 10 it is hard to actually kill anything with that amount of firepower.
Nedless to say I lost badly (take prisoners )

On the other hand, GBTF on model which moved back as reaction 3 inches is great, same for stratagem Get Down when somebody tries to hit vox or sarg

you definitely want some special weapons

Yea
It was fun/test play to check how horde is going to perform.
It does not perform well.

IG has possibility to field 8 special weapons in kill team and it deffinitely need it. Actually the only model carrying lasgun should be vox IMO

Gnollu wrote:

On the other hand, GBTF on model which moved back as reaction 3 inches is great, same for stratagem Get Down when somebody tries to hit vox or sarg

I don't think you can use GBTF on a model that retreated 3" as a reaction to being charged, only when they Fall Back from combat, which is a different kind of move. Which sucks because it would totally make sense to use it on a model that retreated but it doesn't work that way.

So for a sniper force (3-5 snipers,+ Grunts) which would we suggest, Guard, or SM Scouts?

I currently have: A set of CCW Scouts and no Snipers.
A set of IG Snipers and no Guardsman.

Which direction should I go?

Gnollu wrote:
Yea
It was fun/test play to check how horde is going to perform.
It does not perform well.

IG has possibility to field 8 special weapons in kill team and it deffinitely need it. Actually the only model carrying lasgun should be vox IMO

Your kill team will poof with too few bodies. I think 12 to 14 should be an aimed for number.

stratigo wrote:


Your kill team will poof with too few bodies. I think 12 to 14 should be an aimed for number.

Problem with improving body count with guardsmen is morale/nerve test.
On the table next to me lad playing against AM focused on guardsmen only to wipe out half of squad as soon as possible, and with T3 Sv5+ it is kinda easy.
After that Ld6/7 really hurts AM.
We need commissar as soon as possible in KT

Hm. What’s a “short range sniper” called?

Either way, Plas Scion sniper rerolling 1s brings reliable overcharge to the table.

Invul wrote:
Hm. What’s a “short range sniper” called?

Either way, Plas Scion sniper rerolling 1s brings reliable overcharge to the table.

Marksman?
Yup, shame You can only take one sniper to the table

Gnollu wrote:

stratigo wrote:


Your kill team will poof with too few bodies. I think 12 to 14 should be an aimed for number.

Problem with improving body count with guardsmen is morale/nerve test.
On the table next to me lad playing against AM focused on guardsmen only to wipe out half of squad as soon as possible, and with T3 Sv5+ it is kinda easy.
After that Ld6/7 really hurts AM.
We need commissar as soon as possible in KT

t3 with a 4 plus at 10 points is less durable than t3 with a 5 plus at 5. Having to kill another two or three models to force break checks is useful

So having tried out the scion list with flamers I have to say I'm quite happy with how it performed, 2 guardsmen with flamers pushing up the board draw a lot of attention off your other guys and if they get in range they can throw some pretty decent damage out. Grey Knights smite is pretty annoying to deal with but they're so few models it's very easy to break them. Volleyguns just murder MEQ's if you can get them within half range, hitting on 3's, re-rolling 1's or hittin on 2's with the comm ability then wounding on 4's with -2 ap is just murder on expensive models like those.

There's also a definite advantage to having the most models on the table, won a 4 player game by virtue of being the last unbroken team on the table, survived mostly intact till last turn what everyone on the table focused me, killing 4 models in 2 phases and leaving me with 3 left, managed to pass the break test via the skin of my teeth leaving me the last player standing (the two grey knight players mutually annihilated each other breaking both of their kill teams and the tau player broke in the first turn due to some bad positioning and bad luck).

 Peregrine wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
20 models defeats the spirit of the game. Do you want to game it?

Uh, lol? Taking a perfectly legal army under the stated rules of the game, from a faction that lore-wise emphasizes mass numbers and has a preview emphasizing the ability to out-number an opposing kill team, is somehow "defeating the spirit of the game"? Sorry, but I'll play the game as-written, and not care about your weird self-imposed rules about what is "gaming it".

Anyway, 20 models is still significantly less than a single platoon. That is a 'small-scale' force for the Guard.... something you could realistically see assigned to garrison a single large building, junction or bridge.

And yes, Peregrine summed it up; if you want non-scion forces, you're basically dependent on gunners with special-weapon-of-choice; lasfire against a target 13" away in cover will categorically not kill anything. Regular guardsmen need rapid fire at targets in the clear to cause meaningful damage, and that's risky - certainly, if you're getting that close, you'd get more mileage out of flamers, and if not planning to you might as well have sniper rifles.

And meltaguns frankly weren't even worth it in previous versions of kill team where you (occasionally) found yourself up against a razorback or chimera, let alone in the new infantry-only version.