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I find Deathwatch Aggressors a godsend, because Primaris Kill-Teams don't have enough shots to clear out hordes of Gaunts/Guardsmen/Orks without them.

Though when playing Orks large squads of Raven Guard Aggressors are a pretty effective counter to most of your book; if you're having trouble with them you might try using transports or Da Jump to get from outside their range to inside their range without exposing yourself to too much fire.

In fairness aggressors are truly terminators as they were meant to be.

In terms of OP, hardly. No top list runs them because they are still squishy and points intensive.

Take something besides the optimum target for them maybe?

Aggressors really are a hard counter matchup to Orks. You have very few efficient ways of dealing with them. If we are talking at range you are -1 to hit (if raven guard) so good luck hitting on 6s with your Lootas and 5s with your kannons. Then up close they will shoot the high heavens out of you in their shooting phase and in your shooting/charge phase if they have the banner. They're VERY strong in that specific match up, but overall not an amazing unit. They're laughable to Eldar and other high meta pick options.

The Raven Guard ones are also dependent on going 1st to really do their damage. After them Deathwatch ones mixed with intercessors can do alright in mixed squads. I will mirror former posts here though and state that the infiltrate stratagem that they and other armies have really is too good.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
I say this everytime one of these threads comes up.

You took paper into a match against scissors. The unit is not broken, this instance of a matchup is not game breaking either.

If your local meta is seeing a ton of these start going mechanized and spam rockets. They will stop taking those units after a couple games of you stomping them. Massed bolters, just like massed autocannons, or massed anything that is anti infantry will not do squat to massed mechanization. S4 is not going to take down a whole lot if everything is screened or hiding in a transport.

Aggressors are strength 5 and AP-1, yes? So with re-rolls to hit and wound, that's 14 wounds to a Baneblade (or a Rhino).

Inceptors are the ones with two mini-heavy bolters.

D:< someone was wounding Zarakynel on 5's with aggressors in my local area.

DW aggressors using the +Wd strategem?

No, they were Raven Guard because they infiltrated. I blenderized them bottom of Turn 1, but suffering 14 wounds on a 20 wound creature that cost 666 points really stung.

All the super Greater Daemons are overcosted though. Even the Tzeentch one was only okay and it ended up with a price bump!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
All the super Greater Daemons are overcosted though. Even the Tzeentch one was only okay and it ended up with a price bump!

Oh yes for sure, I was just mostly being upset that I was cheated. It's possible my opponent was confused, but I made sure to express surprise that a unit had so many "basically a heavy bolter" shots. The Inceptors having a similar gun confused him, mayhaps, or idk.

 fraser1191 wrote:

Can we get a separate thank you thread?

If it doubles for the usual whining about how useless tacticals are, why not

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

Can we get a separate thank you thread?

If it doubles for the usual whining about how useless tacticals are, why not

That's the best part!

whenever I use my aggressors they rarely make it into combat just cuz they are slow and liable to be left out in the open.

I'm not going to buy a repulsor just to be able to get them where they need to be.

the raven guard strategy is ridiculously broken and needs to be adjusted. I don't know how or what to do to it, but something needs to be done.

Racerguy180 wrote:

the raven guard strategy is ridiculously broken and needs to be adjusted. I don't know how or what to do to it, but something needs to be done.

It's not broken. It's just not terrible.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

the raven guard strategy is ridiculously broken and needs to be adjusted. I don't know how or what to do to it, but something needs to be done.

It's not broken. It's just not terrible.

Unfortunately that's the same thing to some people.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

the raven guard strategy is ridiculously broken and needs to be adjusted. I don't know how or what to do to it, but something needs to be done.

It's not broken. It's just not terrible.

It is also an internal balance issue. Raven guard have the best tactic and the best stratagem, most other stratagems in the codex are trash. It is also pretty impossible to balance the point cost of an unit, if one subfaction has an access to a stratagem which massively increases the effectiveness of that unit. Either the unit is OP with the stratagem or trash without it. Furthermore, in newer codices this sort of stratagems have a limits on their use. I'd welcome nerf on this stratagem and buffs for other stratagems. But marine book needs an overhaul anyway.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

the raven guard strategy is ridiculously broken and needs to be adjusted. I don't know how or what to do to it, but something needs to be done.

It's not broken. It's just not terrible.

It is also an internal balance issue. Raven guard have the best tactic and the best stratagem, most other stratagems in the codex are trash. It is also pretty impossible to balance the point cost of an unit, if one subfaction has an access to a stratagem which massively increases the effectiveness of that unit. Either the unit is OP with the stratagem or trash without it. Furthermore, in newer codices this sort of stratagems have a limits on their use. I'd welcome nerf on this stratagem and buffs for other stratagems. But marine book needs an overhaul anyway.

I'd not object to a "8.5" Marine codex.

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

the raven guard strategy is ridiculously broken and needs to be adjusted. I don't know how or what to do to it, but something needs to be done.

It's not broken. It's just not terrible.

It is also an internal balance issue. Raven guard have the best tactic and the best stratagem, most other stratagems in the codex are trash. It is also pretty impossible to balance the point cost of an unit, if one subfaction has an access to a stratagem which massively increases the effectiveness of that unit. Either the unit is OP with the stratagem or trash without it. Furthermore, in newer codices this sort of stratagems have a limits on their use. I'd welcome nerf on this stratagem and buffs for other stratagems. But marine book needs an overhaul anyway.

Putting it bluntly, Raven Guard have the best tactic and stratagem in a book full of mediocre tactics and stratagems.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Putting it bluntly, Raven Guard have the best tactic and stratagem in a book full of mediocre tactics and stratagems.

Sure, I don't disagree. But that's not good design from any angle. All chapters should be usable, and marines in general shouldn't be crap.

But reality is what it is, as much as people can complain GW's 40K design team have promised balance and missed.

Maybe CA2018 might address some of the balance issues they maybe not we shall see.

But at the OP's point we have seen more and more as codex's are released GW get more and more adventurous with strategums and points cuts, but sure complain that your GT winning index can't stand up to one unit in a codex that's not exactlly considered top tier. I'm sure you'll be the first to admit GW got it wrong when something is OP in the Ork codex

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

the raven guard strategy is ridiculously broken and needs to be adjusted. I don't know how or what to do to it, but something needs to be done.

It's not broken. It's just not terrible.

It is also an internal balance issue. Raven guard have the best tactic and the best stratagem, most other stratagems in the codex are trash. It is also pretty impossible to balance the point cost of an unit, if one subfaction has an access to a stratagem which massively increases the effectiveness of that unit. Either the unit is OP with the stratagem or trash without it. Furthermore, in newer codices this sort of stratagems have a limits on their use. I'd welcome nerf on this stratagem and buffs for other stratagems. But marine book needs an overhaul anyway.

I'd not object to a "8.5" Marine codex.

Conspiracy theory time. I suspect that when we start getting waves two or three of Primaris kits, you'll eventually see a separate "Primaris Marines" codex so they can include all the new units. Then, if, coincidentally that codex is quite superior to the old marine codex, wouldn't that be a shame? It'd be sneaky but I think that's how I'd do it if I was GW.

 Elbows wrote:

Conspiracy theory time. I suspect that when we start getting waves two or three of Primaris kits, you'll eventually see a separate "Primaris Marines" codex so they can include all the new units. Then, if, coincidentally that codex is quite superior to the old marine codex, wouldn't that be a shame? It'd be sneaky but I think that's how I'd do it if I was GW.

Let's hope so!

 Crimson wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

the raven guard strategy is ridiculously broken and needs to be adjusted. I don't know how or what to do to it, but something needs to be done.

It's not broken. It's just not terrible.

It is also an internal balance issue. Raven guard have the best tactic and the best stratagem, most other stratagems in the codex are trash. It is also pretty impossible to balance the point cost of an unit, if one subfaction has an access to a stratagem which massively increases the effectiveness of that unit. Either the unit is OP with the stratagem or trash without it. Furthermore, in newer codices this sort of stratagems have a limits on their use. I'd welcome nerf on this stratagem and buffs for other stratagems. But marine book needs an overhaul anyway.

It's probably up there as the top strategem yeah. It also says a lot how bad the others are for the Chapters.
1. Black Templars is good.
2. Ultramarines is super redundant just like Wisdom Of The Ancients and is bad because of that.
3. Iron Hands is just plain trash.
4. Salamanders would be okay if the weapons it focused on weren't bad.
5. Imperial Fists is much too limited in use.
6. White Scars is okay if Bikers weren't so bad.
7. THEN we get Raven Guard.

 Elbows wrote:

Conspiracy theory time. I suspect that when we start getting waves two or three of Primaris kits, you'll eventually see a separate "Primaris Marines" codex so they can include all the new units. Then, if, coincidentally that codex is quite superior to the old marine codex, wouldn't that be a shame? It'd be sneaky but I think that's how I'd do it if I was GW.

Honestly, I think its less a conspiracy and more just a realistic product of the passage of game design. The Marine dex was designed before 8th was released and it was always going to be out on its own, introducing a bunch of new mechanics and providing a new type of power on its own long before the majority of players would have access to such things. That just naturally creates a more conservative design that you're less afraid of pushing once the baseline is established; particularly when you've given yourself outs in the form of things like soup and errata. Ultimately marines got nerfed at the same time that things were being designed with their pre-nerf levels as a balance point. It happens in games all the time and just tends to be a result of playtesting environments not being the same as the reality they create.

Raven Guard strat needs balancing for sure.

I'd make it 1cp for one unit 3cp for two. No more than two units, to put it in line with the majority of deep strike strats.

I'd also make the unit appear at the end of the controlling player's first movement phase. It would still override the beta deep strike rule with the trade-off that it MUST be your first turn. This also means the unit would be unable to move the turn they arrive.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Elbows wrote:

Conspiracy theory time. I suspect that when we start getting waves two or three of Primaris kits, you'll eventually see a separate "Primaris Marines" codex so they can include all the new units. Then, if, coincidentally that codex is quite superior to the old marine codex, wouldn't that be a shame? It'd be sneaky but I think that's how I'd do it if I was GW.

Honestly, I think its less a conspiracy and more just a realistic product of the passage of game design. The Marine dex was designed before 8th was released and it was always going to be out on its own, introducing a bunch of new mechanics and providing a new type of power on its own long before the majority of players would have access to such things. That just naturally creates a more conservative design that you're less afraid of pushing once the baseline is established; particularly when you've given yourself outs in the form of things like soup and errata. Ultimately marines got nerfed at the same time that things were being designed with their pre-nerf levels as a balance point. It happens in games all the time and just tends to be a result of playtesting environments not being the same as the reality they create.

Oh I fully agree, it's just the internet so I have to use buzz-words like "conspiracy theory" I don't believe the marine codex was intentionally complete crap when they released it, but they've opened up a golden opportunity for themselves to subtly upstage all of the old units and make Primaris more appealing.

Against the Orks, the Ultramarine Aggressors near Guilliman are even more deadly than Ravenguard. Because Orks would have to go closer towards their target and charge, shooting may not be their game.

It is a bad match up for the Orks side tbh. Had it been for Nidz / Guards / all kinds of Eldars, the Aggressors would have been dead ten thousands times before they can fire a single shot, unless they are Ravenguard, because of both the Stratagem and Chapter Trait.

For Orks, really recommend to take mechanized list against the Aggressors, the vehicles provides protections untill it got all pop. When charging, charge the cars in first.

Neophyte2012 wrote:
Against the Orks, the Ultramarine Aggressors near Guilliman are even more deadly than Ravenguard. Because Orks would have to go closer towards their target and charge, shooting may not be their game.

It is a bad match up for the Orks side tbh. Had it been for Nidz / Guards / all kinds of Eldars, the Aggressors would have been dead ten thousands times before they can fire a single shot, unless they are Ravenguard, because of both the Stratagem and Chapter Trait.

For Orks, really recommend to take mechanized list against the Aggressors, the vehicles provides protections untill it got all pop. When charging, charge the cars in first.

Well, the problem is twofold: On one hand, ork vehicles are absolute trash.

On the other, it is possible for me to kill aggressors, even with ork shooting. The problem is that when I did so, they killed a quarter of my army in MY turn.

So, I can kill them and be shot off the table. Or I don't, and get shot off the table even faster.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:
Against the Orks, the Ultramarine Aggressors near Guilliman are even more deadly than Ravenguard. Because Orks would have to go closer towards their target and charge, shooting may not be their game.

It is a bad match up for the Orks side tbh. Had it been for Nidz / Guards / all kinds of Eldars, the Aggressors would have been dead ten thousands times before they can fire a single shot, unless they are Ravenguard, because of both the Stratagem and Chapter Trait.

For Orks, really recommend to take mechanized list against the Aggressors, the vehicles provides protections untill it got all pop. When charging, charge the cars in first.

Well, the problem is twofold: On one hand, ork vehicles are absolute trash.

On the other, it is possible for me to kill aggressors, even with ork shooting. The problem is that when I did so, they killed a quarter of my army in MY turn.

So, I can kill them and be shot off the table. Or I don't, and get shot off the table even faster.

The real problem here - is -1 to hit army trait and parking units right in front of you that still get to shoot twice (because they havn't moved) Ask me how many times my ultra marine aggressors have got to shoot twice? NOT MANY.

Space marines are natually good vs orks. They have base str 4 in bulk so wound you well and you don't have saves.

I bet you really hate scout bikes too. About as much firepower as aggressors per point but also move 16".

Just wait till you get "THE BEAST" ....I mean. Ghazgul Thrakka! Those Punny Humanz gerna regrit cominz soz cloze to da Orks.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:
Against the Orks, the Ultramarine Aggressors near Guilliman are even more deadly than Ravenguard. Because Orks would have to go closer towards their target and charge, shooting may not be their game.

It is a bad match up for the Orks side tbh. Had it been for Nidz / Guards / all kinds of Eldars, the Aggressors would have been dead ten thousands times before they can fire a single shot, unless they are Ravenguard, because of both the Stratagem and Chapter Trait.

For Orks, really recommend to take mechanized list against the Aggressors, the vehicles provides protections untill it got all pop. When charging, charge the cars in first.

Well, the problem is twofold: On one hand, ork vehicles are absolute trash.

On the other, it is possible for me to kill aggressors, even with ork shooting. The problem is that when I did so, they killed a quarter of my army in MY turn.

So, I can kill them and be shot off the table. Or I don't, and get shot off the table even faster.

The real problem here - is -1 to hit army trait and parking units right in front of you that still get to shoot twice (because they havn't moved) Ask me how many times my ultra marine aggressors have got to shoot twice? NOT MANY.

Space marines are natually good vs orks. They have base str 4 in bulk so wound you well and you don't have saves.

I bet you really hate scout bikes too. About as much firepower as aggressors per point but also move 16".

Just wait till you get "THE BEAST" ....I mean. Ghazgul Thrakka! Those Punny Humanz gerna regrit cominz soz cloze to da Orks.

Orks right now from what I understand are a bit of a one trick pony. so an army like that'll have hard counters, hopefully the options are expanded a bit with their codex

First, you can really use Strike from the Shadows more than once? You're restricted to one use of a given strategem per turn, seems really strange that you could use that one multiple times during deployment.

Second, the banner only lets a model counter-attack on death if you roll a 4+, (3+ with a relic) and then only fire one gun or make one melee attack. Even with Storm of Fire and making every single one of those banner roles, five Aggressors only get 60 shots. And then they have to hit, and wound T4 Orks, and it's an AP - weapon. Statistically that should be only 11 wounds with the relic and 8.5 without it. 40 Orks with return-fire shooting is either phenomenally unlikely dice, or someone was cheating.

(And if you had 40 orks within 18", why didn't you walk up and charge without shooting them? That's a serious, non-sarcastic question. Yeah they get a lot of overwatch fire, but weathering that and 5 potential counter-punches from the banner is a lot safer than their counter-shooting.)

I'm not trying to claim that Aggressors with the Raven Wing strategem isn't pretty darn good, and very much a hard counter for orks, it just sounds like mistakes may have been made.

As for countering them, I'm not sure what to tell you. Storm boys seem like a natural counter since they can cross 18" with a normal move and charge, obviously shooting something other than the Aggressors on the way in. I don't know if you have access to the Lifta Droppa from the Lifta truck on any non-Forge World models, but if you do that gun shreds an Aggressor squad like paper and auto-hits so the -1 vs Raven Guard is negated. Really, getting something fast into melee so they can't leverage all that dakka seems like the best overall approach. Maybe focus all the BS 4+ grot guns on the Aggressors while you're still outside that 18" threat range. I mean, Grot Tanks with the default cannon can pepper them from too far away for the Aggressors to ever get a chance to return fire, and those are Assault 3. It's a thought anyway.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I find Deathwatch Aggressors a godsend, because Primaris Kill-Teams don't have enough shots to clear out hordes of Gaunts/Guardsmen/Orks without them.

I know it's slightly off-topic, but do they get the Special Issue Ammo bonuses on the Autobolter Gauntlets? I don't have the book handy to double-check what BattleScribe has listed.

Stux wrote:
Without the Raven Guard strat, they are just ok. The strat is where the problem lies.

The Stratagem was written BEFORE the Big Faq "fixed" Deep Strike. So Deep Strike got fixed but the Stratagem DIDN'T.

Ice_can wrote:
But reality is what it is, as much as people can complain GW's 40K design team have promised balance and missed.

Maybe CA2018 might address some of the balance issues they maybe not we shall see.

But at the OP's point we have seen more and more as codex's are released GW get more and more adventurous with strategums and points cuts, but sure complain that your GT winning index can't stand up to one unit in a codex that's not exactlly considered top tier. I'm sure you'll be the first to admit GW got it wrong when something is OP in the Ork codex

Orks won it by not playing game though. Shows how weak army it is as they can't actually afford to play or they lose

The Newman wrote:
First, you can really use Strike from the Shadows more than once? You're restricted to one use of a given strategem per turn, seems really strange that you could use that one multiple times during deployment

Where did you get the idea you're restricted to one use of a stratagem per turn? Even the matched play rules are once per phase, and explicitly exempt stratagems used before the battle.