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Depends on the worldview, doesn't it?

Anyhow. Seems like internet drama being stirred by the usual suspects.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I'll be honest, I don't much care of the man. He comes across as a terrible human being. That said, no one should ever be assaulted, even if you disagree with their politics or their personal views on something.

And yet, there is a certain special snowflake on Dakka who has an avatar that specifically says it's OK to physically assault other people if you disagree with their worldview...

Woah, who does that?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I'll be honest, I don't much care of the man. He comes across as a terrible human being. That said, no one should ever be assaulted, even if you disagree with their politics or their personal views on something.

And yet, there is a certain special snowflake on Dakka who has an avatar that specifically says it's OK to physically assault other people if you disagree with their worldview...

Didn't you just post in another thread that tournament cheaters 'should be branded as God branded Cain'?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
In the case of the first murderer, he was cast out and marked.

His avatar actually suggests it is okay to assault Nazis. It is a little more specific than John is making out. I am sure he did not mean to be disingenuous.

Da Boss wrote:I am sure he did not mean to be disingenuous.

Just maybe a bit misleading to provoke a reaction.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Zywus wrote:
So, Youtuber, Magic the Gathering reviewer and general "anti-SJW pundit" The Quartering (Jeremy Hambly) was physically assaulted during Gencon (not on Con's premises I believe).

It's one thing for some crazy person to attack a con-goer for some nerd-related beef, but for the COn to then try to cover it up?

If it wasn't on their premises, there's nothing for them to do. Not their problem. :wipes hands:

OTOH, is it coincidence that GenCon invited Anita Sarkseesian to stir the pot? Oh well, maybe they shouldn't do that if they don't want controversy.

I HOLD GENCON DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT PERSON'S BEHAVIOR OUTSIDE THE CON PROPER!

Right?

Sure, it's possible to interprete the TOS in such a way that "attend the con" is strictly about your physical location and that as soon as you pass the doors you can engage in whatever disruptive behavior, inappropriate and unlawful conduct, and harassing behavour you wish, without getting thrown out for breaking the TOS. (For example I could walk out the Gencon doors, upload a video on youtube advocating for the expulsion from America of all the gencon attendees of [Insert race here] due to [insert racist reasoning here] and not get thrown out with reference to the TOS. If that's your honest interpretation then sure I was wrong. We can leave the TOS discussion.


As you brought her up. How about fellow Gencon attendee Anita Sarkseesian. Imagine the allegations of assault come from her instead of from the Quartering. Same exact amount of proof (or lack thereof) shown to them. Is Gencon quiet on the matter then? Do they remove all mentions of the incident on their twitter?

 Da Boss wrote:
His avatar actually suggests it is okay to assault Nazis. It is a little more specific than John is making out. I am sure he did not mean to be disingenuous.

Well, I don't like them either, but I wouldn't ever assault them. Jeesh, people are just becoming more and more angry these days.

 Zywus wrote:
Their TOS does apply. I've never said otherwise. I just quoted them above.

I see no quotes from Gencon's TOS by you.

I reckon we had the right way of dealing with fascists in the 1940s, personally.

 Togusa wrote:


Before all of his drama started, his channels were barely known with both of them having had less than a thousand subscribers. He had been in that position for YEARS before this all went down. At last count I think his main channel hasn't managed to pull much beyond 25K but his political "quartering" channel has hit 119K.

But anyways, I've not one single shred of evidence. Probably never will either. But, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if it was true.

When you start to pull those kinds of numbers of viewers things like youtube shift from being a hobby to being a source of significant and growing income. For those who are more, activist it can also be a source of considerable stress/trouble or even threat toward those who are the focus of the channels commentary.

And if his whole modus operandi is to get attention and to get drama then its no surprise that he's generating it around this situation nor that a situation like this happened. Many of those comments Gencon is removing are likely from people who are non-gamers who are following and "signal boosting" from the youtube channel fanbase. It's a significant problem for Gencon because the comments are coming from a group who might not respect any kind of formal announcement.

Indeed, like others in this thread, I fail to see why Gencon has to get involved at all. This is a matter for the police to investigate and collect evidence on. Gencon can then make their choices from that; although they might well have provision to remove people from the event for activity outside of the event if it is seen to be a potential threat to other convention owners or to be behaviour that they do not wish to be associated with.


Honestly its a huge shame this has happened, but having heard of The Quartering's general behaviour (and recalling the threads about his initial ban) it very much sounds like even if he didn't intend to stir the pot far enough to get assaulted; he's certainly capitalising on it right now.

 Zywus wrote:
Sure, it's possible to interprete the TOS in such a way that "attend the con" is strictly about your physical location and that as soon as you pass the doors you can engage in whatever disruptive behavior, inappropriate and unlawful conduct, and harassing behavour you wish, without getting thrown out for breaking the TOS. (For example I could walk out the Gencon doors, upload a video on youtube advocating for the expulsion from America of all the gencon attendees of [Insert race here] due to [insert racist reasoning here] and not get thrown out with reference to the TOS. If that's your honest interpretation then sure I was wrong. We can leave the TOS discussion.

How is "attend the con" not defined by actually being at the convention? You could maybe make the argument that doing something offensive right outside the door, with specific references to the convention, is worthy of getting you thrown out (whether or not it's against a strict reading of the TOS), but this is happened at an unaffiliated bar somewhere else in the city with no attempt by the attacker to relate it to Gencon. How far exactly do you want to extend this TOS coverage? If Alice encounters Bob at the airport in Florida while they're both waiting to board a flight to Gencon and punches him in the face for cheating on her is that still "attending the con"?

As you brought her up. How about fellow Gencon attendee Anita Sarkseesian. Imagine the allegations of assault come from her instead of from the Quartering. Same exact amount of proof (or lack thereof) shown to them. Is Gencon quiet on the matter then? Do they remove all mentions of the incident on their twitter?

Imagine Hitler was assaulted, and Zywus defended him. How can we tolerate such Nazi behavior? We need to ban Zywus from the community because of this.

We're dealing with a professional victim being victimized by professional victims now, we have achieved victimception.

 Overread wrote:

 Togusa wrote:


Before all of his drama started, his channels were barely known with both of them having had less than a thousand subscribers. He had been in that position for YEARS before this all went down. At last count I think his main channel hasn't managed to pull much beyond 25K but his political "quartering" channel has hit 119K.

But anyways, I've not one single shred of evidence. Probably never will either. But, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if it was true.

When you start to pull those kinds of numbers of viewers things like youtube shift from being a hobby to being a source of significant and growing income. For those who are more, activist it can also be a source of considerable stress/trouble or even threat toward those who are the focus of the channels commentary.

And if his whole modus operandi is to get attention and to get drama then its no surprise that he's generating it around this situation nor that a situation like this happened. Many of those comments Gencon is removing are likely from people who are non-gamers who are following and "signal boosting" from the youtube channel fanbase. It's a significant problem for Gencon because the comments are coming from a group who might not respect any kind of formal announcement.

Indeed, like others in this thread, I fail to see why Gencon has to get involved at all. This is a matter for the police to investigate and collect evidence on. Gencon can then make their choices from that; although they might well have provision to remove people from the event for activity outside of the event if it is seen to be a potential threat to other convention owners or to be behaviour that they do not wish to be associated with.


Honestly its a huge shame this has happened, but having heard of The Quartering's general behavior (and recalling the threads about his initial ban) it very much sounds like even if he didn't intend to stir the pot far enough to get assaulted; he's certainly capitalizing on it right now.

You hit the nail on the head, his fanbase is beyond rabid. If you delve into his past, especially in the past few months he has directed his followers to run numerous twitter campaigns against brands he has had drama with including WoTC.

Like I said in the other thread, taking one look at the guy's youtube channel made me want to see a whoooooole lotta context before I'd have any opinion on the matter. Even the "We got him" video was a bit off - like, OK, great, assuming you're on the level you were assaulted without provocation or justification, found and verified the guy's identity, and are reporting the incident to the police...so why are you triumphantly broadcasting the person you're accusing's name, online pseudonyms & social media handles, and place of business on your youtube channel?

Because that, the general tone of the guy's material, and the history detailed above makes it look more like someone trying to start an "SJW's run Gencon and are out to get me" controversy among the Pepe faction on /tg/.

Or it could genuinely be a case of two arseholes passing in the night...and one decking the other for no reason. In which case, prosecute the aggressor of this apparently pretty mundane assault of the kind that happen in bars nightly by the thousand, and that's the end of it.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
We're dealing with a professional victim being victimized by professional victims now, we have achieved victimception.

That hurt my head...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yodhrin wrote:
Like I said in the other thread, taking one look at the guy's youtube channel made me want to see a whoooooole lotta context before I'd have any opinion on the matter. Even the "We got him" video was a bit off - like, OK, great, assuming you're on the level you were assaulted without provocation or justification, found and verified the guy's identity, and are reporting the incident to the police...so why are you triumphantly broadcasting the person you're accusing's name, online pseudonyms & social media handles, and place of business on your youtube channel?

Because that, the general tone of the guy's material, and the history detailed above makes it look more like someone trying to start an "SJW's run Gencon and are out to get me" controversy among the Pepe faction on /tg/.

Or it could genuinely be a case of two arseholes passing in the night...and one decking the other for no reason. In which case, prosecute the aggressor of this apparently pretty mundane assault of the kind that happen in bars nightly by the thousand, and that's the end of it.

THAT IS EXACTLY who and what he is.

He references that slowed pepe meme all the time.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Zywus wrote:
Their TOS does apply. I've never said otherwise. I just quoted them above.

I see no quotes from Gencon's TOS by you.

Must have messed it up in the quote trees (my keybord is a bit wonky as well atm so I've had to make an orky rig with a extra keybord and mouse getting in the way of each other constantly)

https://www.gencon.com/attend/terms_of_service

I agree to conduct myself, and any minors under my supervision, in a safe, responsible, non-disruptive, and lawful manner while attending the Convention,

(emphasis added)
Whether the TOS is applicable comes down to if "while attending" only covers physically residing on the Con premises. I find that an unreasonable interpretation for rasons explained in an above post. If you disagree, then you think I'm wrong. I might be in the minority on this and then so be it, I guess.

In the real world, people are probably consulting law and legal advice, GENCON, I can assure you is not going to put a hand in a meatgrinder, if they can help it.

As someone who has seen this sort of thing before, you have to know that there is a larger issue in it just being "GENCON" proper. As to all of that "Censure stuff" and all of the other matters-

This Jeremy guy has a rep of that Magic stuff. I don't care much about card games, but only follow it indirectly, but there seemed to have been a sucker-punch type of situation with one of these Wackadoo meatballs, who is one of those "Punch Nazi" types, who also is a gamestore guy/ magic person. Only knowing indirectly about card games, so I don't know when they added the physical contact portion of play, but if this is a regular game of Magic, I seem to have missed out on the game.


What this is- a drunk suckerpunch in a bar after hours/ with friends.

You get tick tacked, you either step up and start throwing fists, or you take your lumps and go see a lawyer. I don't see GENCON even entering this conversation, and they will more then likely do their level best to avoid a publicity nightmare by interjecting themselves into a local bar's issue.

Note to those unaware- People in bars will fight you if they get a few drinks of liquid courage in them. That's what they do.

THE BEST way to avoid this situation- Drink at home, or with friends/ mates. Best to have some back up to avoid this sort of an issue altogether. And a 2 drink minimum outside. (I can only imagine what they are charging for drinks at GENCON.) Back in the old days, we brought our own bottles.... Just saying.

 Grot 6 wrote:
In the real world, people are probably consulting law and legal advice, GENCON, I can assure you is not going to put a hand in a meatgrinder, if they can help it.

As someone who has seen this sort of thing before, you have to know that there is a larger issue in it just being "GENCON" proper. As to all of that "Censure stuff" and all of the other matters-

This Jeremy guy has a rep of that Magic stuff. I don't care much about card games, but only follow it indirectly, but there seemed to have been a sucker-punch type of situation with one of these Wackadoo meatballs, who is one of those "Punch Nazi" types, who also is a gamestore guy/ magic person. Only knowing indirectly about card games, so I don't know when they added the physical contact portion of play, but if this is a regular game of Magic, I seem to have missed out on the game.


What this is- a drunk suckerpunch in a bar after hours/ with friends.

You get tick tacked, you either step up and start throwing fists, or you take your lumps and go see a lawyer. I don't see GENCON even entering this conversation, and they will more then likely do their level best to avoid a publicity nightmare by interjecting themselves into a local bar's issue.

Note to those unaware- People in bars will fight you if they get a few drinks of liquid courage in them. That's what they do.

THE BEST way to avoid this situation- Drink at home, or with friends/ mates. Best to have some back up to avoid this sort of an issue altogether. And a 2 drink minimum outside. (I can only imagine what they are charging for drinks at GENCON.) Back in the old days, we brought our own bottles.... Just saying.

Gencon is here because Jeremy want's Gencon involved to further his playing victim. Gencon is a recognized event keyword he can use to garner more support and money. You're correct, if that was literally just two random gamers, we'd not be mentioning it at all.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
We're dealing with a professional victim being victimized by professional victims now, we have achieved victimception.

You HAVE GOT TO SIG That... That is priceless!!!

 Zywus wrote:
https://www.gencon.com/attend/terms_of_service

I agree to conduct myself, and any minors under my supervision, in a safe, responsible, non-disruptive, and lawful manner while attending the Convention,

(emphasis added)
Whether the TOS is applicable comes down to if "while attending" only covers physically residing on the Con premises. I find that an unreasonable interpretation for rasons explained in an above post. If you disagree, then you think I'm wrong. I might be in the minority on this and then so be it, I guess.

Of course "while attending" only covers being on the convention premises (or at least in very close proximity). Anything else quickly becomes excessively broad, to the point that any actions involving a person who at any point attends (or even may attend) the convention becomes relevant. See the "punching a cheater in the face at the airport" example. Do you really want something like that to be covered by the TOS?

Da Boss wrote:His avatar actually suggests it is okay to assault Nazis. It is a little more specific than John is making out. I am sure he did not mean to be disingenuous.

Da Boss wrote:I reckon we had the right way of dealing with fascists in the 1940s, personally.

Yeah, I'm generally not for violence, but when it is literal Nazis and fascists - groups that exist solely to remove rights from groups considered "other", then yeah, all bets are off.

Yodhrin wrote:Like I said in the other thread, taking one look at the guy's youtube channel made me want to see a whoooooole lotta context before I'd have any opinion on the matter. Even the "We got him" video was a bit off - like, OK, great, assuming you're on the level you were assaulted without provocation or justification, found and verified the guy's identity, and are reporting the incident to the police...so why are you triumphantly broadcasting the person you're accusing's name, online pseudonyms & social media handles, and place of business on your youtube channel?

Because that, the general tone of the guy's material, and the history detailed above makes it look more like someone trying to start an "SJW's run Gencon and are out to get me" controversy among the Pepe faction on /tg/.

Or it could genuinely be a case of two arseholes passing in the night...and one decking the other for no reason. In which case, prosecute the aggressor of this apparently pretty mundane assault of the kind that happen in bars nightly by the thousand, and that's the end of it.

Yeah, while looking up who this guy was I had the misfortune of looking at his youtube channel, and my god, if the content of his videos are in any way like the names of them, this guy is kind of a terrible person. I think with that in mind, we really DO need a lot of context - this guy is an instigator who likes to stir the pot.

Nearly all event TOS reserve a general catch-all "this is ours we can do what we like - within reason" clause in there somewhere. I'm sure that Gencon has the power to evict a person for causing an assault even if that assault didn't take place on their grounds.

I'm very sure that they can evict any person if they consider that there is a potential threat (eg further assaults) to other convention attendees.

That said they also likely reserve the right to take no action as its a personal issue between two adult individuals that, in their view, in no way endangers convention attendees. Further as they are not in possession of all the facts from an unbiased source (far as I can tell we've only evidence from one person who is already highly suspect in having a very bias viewpoint and more htan enough reason to twist presentation of facts to suit their own agenda)

 Togusa wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I'll be honest, I don't much care of the man. He comes across as a terrible human being. That said, no one should ever be assaulted, even if you disagree with their politics or their personal views on something.

And yet, there is a certain special snowflake on Dakka who has an avatar that specifically says it's OK to physically assault other people if you disagree with their worldview...

Woah, who does that?

It's-a me! Mario!
By putting together various pop culture reference from a time where dishing out even extreme violence on Nazi was considered okay (you know, back before the PR campaign of neo-Nazi managed to convince people that we ought to treat them with respect and deference), I am now very very politically incorrect . Well, sorry PC police but you lose this time, the mods said my avatar was okay! You can try to get offended at my signature instead.
Maybe Nazis shouldn't have tried to literally eradicate my family, you know? That kind of things tend to let long-lasting enmity stay, especially when they were partly successful.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Zywus wrote:
https://www.gencon.com/attend/terms_of_service

I agree to conduct myself, and any minors under my supervision, in a safe, responsible, non-disruptive, and lawful manner while attending the Convention,

(emphasis added)
Whether the TOS is applicable comes down to if "while attending" only covers physically residing on the Con premises. I find that an unreasonable interpretation for rasons explained in an above post. If you disagree, then you think I'm wrong. I might be in the minority on this and then so be it, I guess.

Of course "while attending" only covers being on the convention premises (or at least in very close proximity). Anything else quickly becomes excessively broad, to the point that any actions involving a person who at any point attends (or even may attend) the convention becomes relevant. See the "punching a cheater in the face at the airport" example. Do you really want something like that to be covered by the TOS?

I'm pretty sure that if you have a 4-day pass at Gencon, and do something significantly inflammatory and/or illegal during your stay, they'd feel entitled to refuse you entry for the rest of the days with reference to the TOS.

Typical Dakka left wing echo chamber in action.
You know what? Hambly is a jerk. But when you start advocating violence as a solution to jerks, you're just as much a part of the problem. And that you can't see that is the truly frightening part.

It was a suckerpunch at a bar.... Seriously.

He wasn't storming Poland here. It isn't about "Nazi's", it is about a couple of mutts getting some drinks in them and one of them clocking the other guy he didn't like, because of his B.S. YouTube crap. I don't know if his subjects are true or not. Our shops have a strict self enforced, "Have fun and no politics" rules, which keep the shop as neutral in all matters but games.

GENCON doesn't count as in clubs and bars after hours, sorry. As a one time professional drunk, stupid hooligan, it was you got drunk, got an idea, and it seems a good idea at the time, until you wake up in the drunk tank... LOL

I mean, damn- Lets not give this guy that much rope if he hasn't earned it. LMAO!!!

Guy is a douche but if it comes out that he was actually attacked for expressing his opinion... not on, not one bit, especially as the US has freedom of speech as part of its constitution.

I would really love to know exactly what happened though, I have a bad feeling that he possibly baited this other person.

I’ve been watching his videos for a while and find him a bit of a bear baiter (U.K. term for someone who stirs up trouble for the sake of publicity or social standing).

I said I did not have a problem with punching nazis. Did not mention anything about this case because I do not have the details. Thanks, try again.

 totalfailure wrote:
Typical Dakka left wing echo chamber in action.
You know what? Hambly is a jerk. But when you start advocating violence as a solution to jerks, you're just as much a part of the problem. And that you can't see that is the truly frightening part.

I don't recall many/any defending the violence - outside of a side debate on violence against Nazis which is a totally separate issue and mostly just a red herring in this thread.

I think many are saying that they can understand how the violence was potentially encouraged to happen and many are certainly saying that the person who was assaulted is very much capable of and is capitalising on the situation in their favour. They are further saying that we don't have all the facts; what facts we do have are from a heavily biased source and that this is not a matter for Gencon but for the Police to resolve.

 totalfailure wrote:
Typical Dakka left wing echo chamber in action.
You know what? Hambly is a jerk. But when you start advocating violence as a solution to jerks, you're just as much a part of the problem. And that you can't see that is the truly frightening part.

Who is advocating violence against him for being a jerk? I've seen several people, myself included, not being surprised that he got punched (much in the same way that someone who cheats on their partner shouldn't be surprised to get a punch in return) but nobody is saying that we should punch him. "Saw that one coming" is not the same thing as "good job, we should give you a medal". But I suppose when you start off with "left-wing echo chamber" as the premise of your comment we know you're not dealing with reality.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
especially as the US has freedom of speech as part of its constitution.

Freedom of speech is about government censorship, not the actions of private citizens. Whatever the details of the situation may be or your opinions on them this is not a free speech issue.