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Xenomancers wrote: Well a 6 man hive gaurd unit cost much less than a land raider and can shoot twice for 2 cp with 12( str 8 ap-2 d3 damage ignore cover doesn't need LOS weapons)
Or essentially -2.5x the firepower of a landraider.
My math scores the Hive Guard at 5.3 w on a Leman Russ, bare bones Land Raider Phobos 5.8.
Yeah - killing LR with heavy weapons is tough. LC can do it well but vs custodes bikers or ravagers or even rhinos - the hive guard unit does significantly more damage.
Vs. Rhino Hive guard get 7.0, a Land Raider with the additional Multimelta scores 7.3. I'm sure Hive Guard pull ahead against models with invuln saves, and that's fair. But there's a huge benefit coming from the potential buffs, as illustrated by the 12 potential wounds given in the post above. Hive Guard can't be nearly as buffed, I think it's just Kronos reroll 1s to hit? The Fire Twice Stratagem is almost a substitute for buffs. Buffed Land Raider +Fire Twice would be very valuable, and that's how it would likely be played. Stacked Buffs are the way of competetive builds, generally.
The unit needs to be able to perform without buffs. I'm assuming you didn't take into account Kronos either, which would be a baked-in rule?
Post literally mentions Kronos. Prior comparisons are without buffs. It's pretty clear.
This feeds back to the biggest issue with a lot of marinr anti tank right now.
GW has gone invulnerable save for everyone.
Marines did rely on Lascannons for their anti vehical shooting.
A lascannon is paying alot of points for S9 AP-3 and Dd6 however.
1 lascannon looses it advantage from AP-3 against anything with an invulnerable save.
2 most vehicals only being T7 or T6 limits the advantages of S9 over say S8.
3 D6 damage is incredibly swingy and can lead to multiple lascannon shots failing to take significant wounds from the target.
Like I seen a quad las predator do 2 wounds to a rhino that just isn't good enough for 100points of weapons befire the platform to mount them on.
Insectum7 wrote: D6 also gives you one of the best option for the Reroll Stratagem though. And when you get those 5s and 6s it is sweeeet.
Personally I would trade the higher average damage and niche use of being able to make a bit better use of the reroll stratagem to just have a flat 3 damage you can count on.
Perhaps the likes of Lascannons should do 3 + D3 instead of D6? Maybe even 2 + D3 (This takes off extremes, but gives an average closer to 3.5, instead of 4.5 above).
Insectum7 wrote: D6 also gives you one of the best option for the Reroll Stratagem though. And when you get those 5s and 6s it is sweeeet.
Personally I would trade the higher average damage and niche use of being able to make a bit better use of the reroll stratagem to just have a flat 3 damage you can count on.
I just take them alongside Plasma Cannons which have multiple shots and can do a flat 2 D. They complement each other well.
Insectum7 wrote: D6 also gives you one of the best option for the Reroll Stratagem though. And when you get those 5s and 6s it is sweeeet.
Personally I would trade the higher average damage and niche use of being able to make a bit better use of the reroll stratagem to just have a flat 3 damage you can count on.
I just take them alongside Plasma Cannons which have multiple shots and can do a flat 2 D. They complement each other well.
Since when can a Landraider be equipped with twin plasma cannon sponsons?
Though that might actually be a cool way yo make them sort of work over the bad lascannons.
Insectum7 wrote: D6 also gives you one of the best option for the Reroll Stratagem though. And when you get those 5s and 6s it is sweeeet.
Personally I would trade the higher average damage and niche use of being able to make a bit better use of the reroll stratagem to just have a flat 3 damage you can count on.
I just take them alongside Plasma Cannons which have multiple shots and can do a flat 2 D. They complement each other well.
Since when can a Landraider be equipped with twin plasma cannon sponsons?
Though that might actually be a cool way yo make them sort of work over the bad lascannons.
Disingenuous post is disingenuous.
I take Plasma Cannons on my Devastators, and Lascannons on whatever, since there's a wide array of units with access to them.
Insectum7 wrote: D6 also gives you one of the best option for the Reroll Stratagem though. And when you get those 5s and 6s it is sweeeet.
Personally I would trade the higher average damage and niche use of being able to make a bit better use of the reroll stratagem to just have a flat 3 damage you can count on.
I just take them alongside Plasma Cannons which have multiple shots and can do a flat 2 D. They complement each other well.
Since when can a Landraider be equipped with twin plasma cannon sponsons?
Though that might actually be a cool way yo make them sort of work over the bad lascannons.
Disingenuous post is disingenuous.
I take Plasma Cannons on my Devastators, and Lascannons on whatever, since there's a wide array of units with access to them.
In a thread about how playable are landradiers damn skippy I'm gona call you on saying take plasma cannons over lascannons as marines can't field plasmacannons on Vehicals.
Insectum7 wrote: D6 also gives you one of the best option for the Reroll Stratagem though. And when you get those 5s and 6s it is sweeeet.
Personally I would trade the higher average damage and niche use of being able to make a bit better use of the reroll stratagem to just have a flat 3 damage you can count on.
I just take them alongside Plasma Cannons which have multiple shots and can do a flat 2 D. They complement each other well.
Since when can a Landraider be equipped with twin plasma cannon sponsons?
Though that might actually be a cool way yo make them sort of work over the bad lascannons.
Disingenuous post is disingenuous.
I take Plasma Cannons on my Devastators, and Lascannons on whatever, since there's a wide array of units with access to them.
In a thread about how playable are landradiers damn skippy I'm gona call you on saying take plasma cannons over lascannons as marines can't field plasmacannons on Vehicals.
In a side conversation about the benefits/faults of Lascannons? Ok man, your perogative I guess.
Plasma Cannons can be taken on vehicles, just fewer options for it. Dreds and Storm Ravens come to mind though. Technically its "Heavy" Plasma Cannons, but it's the same weapon only it deals mortal wounds overheating instead of slaying the model.
