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tneva82 wrote:

cadrean wrote:
Looks like Speed freeks releases first,
followed by codex?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
refrerence:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/10/02/2nd-orkt-revving-up-for-orktober-on-warhammer-communitygw-homepage-post-1/

Yeah. Think they have hinted that before as well but also makes sense as speed freak and codex are both pretty big releases and GW wants to spread releases(especially big ones) over several weeks. Guess it's more profitable than having both on same week.

Gives you time to paint new vehicle or two before codex hits!

GW also don't like having one or two items in a single release. So unless they are releasing more of the kill team commander boxes then the codex will release along side the speed freaks box. I can see them releasing the codex at the same time as the speed freaks box so those that are fast at building and painting, will have rules to use their buggies in 40k game.

From the community post the codex covers six klans, so looks like freeboeters will not be a klan option.

Good, Badmoonz, Deathskullz, Snakebites, Evil Sunz, Blood Axe are already six.

I thought the community post said theyre just going to be covering the 6 clans background in articles during the month, not that there will be only 6 in the codex?

blaktoof wrote:
Good, Badmoonz, Deathskullz, Snakebites, Evil Sunz, Blood Axe are already six.

I presume your autocorrect changed "Goff" to "Good"?

It'll be a shame if Freebooters can't be a list unto itself, but I think that the main Klanz being represented with actual rules is a huge step forward. There was a long period where GW ran away from all forms of faction flavour (Chaos got hit, Eldar got hit, anything other than the main 6 Marine types got hit, even Guard got hit a little). I don't like 8th at all - the game is far too simplistic for my tastes, the vehicle rules are a complete joke, LOS/cover makes zero sense, and everything either gives a re-roll, a -1/+1 to hit/wound, or more damned Mortal fething Wounds - but I do like their approach to giving options, equipment, strategies and actual rules to all the various sub-factions that have existed in the game for a long time and even some that never got specific rules (like Tyranid Hive Fleets).

It brings more depth to a game that, IMO, sorely needs it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

It brings more depth to a game that, IMO, sorely needs it.

It also leads to pigeon holed unfluffy armies. Like now with evil suns no fast vehicles and instead huge infantry mobs and walkers, blood axes that ignore cover and snakebites that are all about vehicles

Snakebites are all about vehicles?

didn't we had leaked rules way back for all six clanz?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Snakebites are all about vehicles?

Yeah. FNP helps more the more wounds you have. Works okay also for 6-7 woundish but for example it's less efficient for W1 models than it's for W12 models. Guess which one is more likely to have 12 wounds than 1? Vehicle or infantry.

Ironically snakebites will be one of the best clan traits for stompas...For dreadnoughts and gorka/morkanauts it will be race between evil sunz(lol), blood axes(real sneaky!) or snakebites.

All artirelly will be bad moons(much like with IG gunlines infantry will be cadians and vehicles catachans. Seems GW thinks Cadia has no tanks), bikes etc will be predominantly blood axes, basic boyz blood axes or evil sunz. And no bad moon ever in ork history wields choppa&slugga it seems.

Generally all these clan/chapter/regiment/whatever leads to unfluffy armies and restricts player choice pigeonholing armies even more to same army builds. It's been seen for years through several editions already.

Assuming the leaks are accurate.

More importantly we can field clan lists and Detachments if we simply wish. Fluffy and unfluffy is a choice. I'll be running fluff regardless. Some won't. It's a choice.

Choice is a good thing and the fact it's returning is great!

It's nothing new this.

GW have been giving every faction some sort of unique rule and most factions (unless they are already a sub faction) have been getting sub faction rules. This has happened since the very first codex. It's so ingrained in the game that to play it without is boring. So nothing surprising there.

There have also been examples of it causing unfluffy lists for other factions too - the "Iyanden" trait suits mass Guardians more than Wraith constructs, Ulthwe suits vehicles more than mass Guardians and Biel Tan suits Guardians as much as, if not more than Aspect Warriors. This isn't a new thing either.

The biggest problem is when an army has access to one Klan rule that is just flat better than all others - House Raven, Alpha Legion, Raven Guard, Alaitoc and Stygies are all problems in this regard.

rtb02 wrote:
Assuming the leaks are accurate.

More importantly we can field clan lists and Detachments if we simply wish. Fluffy and unfluffy is a choice. I'll be running fluff regardless. Some won't. It's a choice.

Choice is a good thing and the fact it's returning is great!

Problem is GW actually removes choice. Completely stupid choices are no choices at all. I feel pity for bad moon players with sluggas and choppas. Okay technically you have a "choice". But there's choices and there's "choices".

Free rules never have been good idea. It's been shown since at least 4th edition. But they are good for selling models so GW keeps doing it and to hell with fluff and balance.

If these increase choices then why do they cause player armies to LOSE diversity?

But every army has always had free rules. "Army Special Rules", things like ATSKNF, have always been around.

In this image on the Warhammer community post, anyone else notice something about the Boyz base sizes? Looks suspiciously like 32mm (following on from the Killteam images)

/looks at his horde of Boyz, Stormboyz, Lootas and Burnas... sigh...

GW already said you don't have to rebase them and at a tourney it's the TOs choice.

Oh Thank Gork and Mork for that!

 ModernAngel wrote:
In this image on the Warhammer community post, anyone else notice something about the Boyz base sizes? Looks suspiciously like 32mm (following on from the Killteam images)

/looks at his horde of Boyz, Stormboyz, Lootas and Burnas... sigh...

Spoiler:

Yeah those are 32mm bases so likely boxes will get those in future. Good news is GW's official stance is and has always been no rebasing required.

Which means I sure am not going to rebase. Lots of work, would damage models and cost like over 200 euro's minimum...

I might take some temporary bases and blue tack and if some TFG is really have problem with models...Okay sure I put on those and then move each model sloooooowly one model at a time(hey you just prevented me from using my movement trays anyway...Eat the consequence) and finish game on turn 2.

Luckily tournaments and players here are generally sensible enough that shouldn't become an issue. I'm sure they are just happy facing orks that don't take ages to play(though frankly in my experience seems orks are one of the faster armies. Dark eldars for example tend to be lot slower)

I've built about half my Ork boys... I don't want to switch to 32mm now.

as far as the bases go, i wonder if anyone has considered getting 32mm washers or trace out and cut 32mm pieces out of plasticard (most for sale signs are that material), then just glue it onto the bottom.

does it look perfect? no (unless your basing incorporate the old base as a rock the boy is on). but it does keep you from re basing everyboy, you just add a little to the base.

if that is done then at that point the only thing to worry about is dealing with large bases and combat.

geargutz wrote:
as far as the bases go, i wonder if anyone has considered getting 32mm washers or trace out and cut 32mm pieces out of plasticard (most for sale signs are that material), then just glue it onto the bottom.

does it look perfect? no (unless your basing incorporate the old base as a rock the boy is on). but it does keep you from re basing everyboy, you just add a little to the base.

if that is done then at that point the only thing to worry about is dealing with large bases and combat.

That would require some serious rework for me to make it match to rest _and invalidate my huge pile of movement trays_. Seriously we are talking about hundreds of euro's worth of movement trays...Nope. Ain't going to do that. If somebody has issue with it...well then above is solution to that one.

32mm base does not fit to movement tray that has slots for 25mm bases. Nope. Just can't do. It's physically impossible. The cost of bases/washers/whatever is insignificant compared to the movement trays.

So no "dealing with large bases and combat" is NOT only thing to worry about

In this image on the Warhammer community post, anyone else notice something about the Boyz base sizes? Looks suspiciously like 32mm (following on from the Killteam images)

/looks at his horde of Boyz, Stormboyz, Lootas and Burnas... sigh...

Spoiler:

Boss riding a Squigg very centre of picture.....is a conversion?

 Ratius wrote:

In this image on the Warhammer community post, anyone else notice something about the Boyz base sizes? Looks suspiciously like 32mm (following on from the Killteam images)

/looks at his horde of Boyz, Stormboyz, Lootas and Burnas... sigh...

Spoiler:

Boss riding a Squigg very centre of picture.....is a conversion?

Is the normal plastic Warboss.

This chap:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Ratius wrote:

In this image on the Warhammer community post, anyone else notice something about the Boyz base sizes? Looks suspiciously like 32mm (following on from the Killteam images)

/looks at his horde of Boyz, Stormboyz, Lootas and Burnas... sigh...

Spoiler:

Boss riding a Squigg very centre of picture.....is a conversion?

Is the normal plastic Warboss.

Yeah. Angle is bad but boss does NOT ride the squig. Squig is in front of him, not under.

Squig might be just a weeeee bit unstable to ride to a battle

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah. FNP helps more the more wounds you have. Works okay also for 6-7 woundish but for example it's less efficient for W1 models than it's for W12 models.

Can you explain how that works? Because my instinct is that it gives you exactly the same boost no matter what your wounds. You get 1/6 more survivable, whether it's a 1/6 chance of not dying from the first shot or a 1/6 reduction in the number of wounds you take.

The only complication I can see is that some weapons might do more wounds than are needed to kill a model and soaking some of them doesn't help. But people will rarely fire high-damage weapons at 1 wound models if they have a choice and if they do, I think the trait is still helping by making your opponent use sub-optimal weapons.

 Perfect Organism wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah. FNP helps more the more wounds you have. Works okay also for 6-7 woundish but for example it's less efficient for W1 models than it's for W12 models.

Can you explain how that works? Because my instinct is that it gives you exactly the same boost no matter what your wounds. You get 1/6 more survivable, whether it's a 1/6 chance of not dying from the first shot or a 1/6 reduction in the number of wounds you take.

The only complication I can see is that some weapons might do more wounds than are needed to kill a model and soaking some of them doesn't help. But people will rarely fire high-damage weapons at 1 wound models if they have a choice and if they do, I think the trait is still helping by making your opponent use sub-optimal weapons.

I think the idea is that if someone shoots damage d3 weapons at your boyz, are you really going to bother with the FnP? Whereas obviously you're rolling for it every single time with a vehicle since it has multiple wounds.

 Perfect Organism wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah. FNP helps more the more wounds you have. Works okay also for 6-7 woundish but for example it's less efficient for W1 models than it's for W12 models.

Can you explain how that works? Because my instinct is that it gives you exactly the same boost no matter what your wounds. You get 1/6 more survivable, whether it's a 1/6 chance of not dying from the first shot or a 1/6 reduction in the number of wounds you take.

The only complication I can see is that some weapons might do more wounds than are needed to kill a model and soaking some of them doesn't help. But people will rarely fire high-damage weapons at 1 wound models if they have a choice and if they do, I think the trait is still helping by making your opponent use sub-optimal weapons.

Okay so I shoot at your ork with D2 weapon. 12 shots. 24 wounds. By that logic rather than losing 10 guys I should lose 16% less wounds? Umm...No. What happens is you roll 2 dice for ork. If one passes, one fails IT IS IRRELEVANT! You are still dead. Doesn't matter if all 12 orks roll 6 on 1 dice as it's 12 dead orks anyway. To save a boy you have to roll TWO sixes. Odds of that being...1/36. Waaaay less than 1/6. Compare to the invulnerable save where rolling that 6 will save all damage...Here if your ork unit of 30 gets hit 30 times odds are not that bad that all die. So much for that 1/6 more survivable...

End result: The more wounds you have the better usage for your FNP you get.

And these days there's plenty of multi damage weapons that are good for killing hordes. Hell there's army that is making all the noise where their primary anti-infantry gun is D2 and every single one of them strikes at least 12 times in h2h with multi wounds.

It might not be that much issue except GW has been upping multi damage weapons like handing out candies so it's not even shooting(or striking in h2h) at suboptimal target. When you have high rate of fire, lowish S, multi damage that's pretty good horde clearer...

PiñaColada wrote:

 Perfect Organism wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah. FNP helps more the more wounds you have. Works okay also for 6-7 woundish but for example it's less efficient for W1 models than it's for W12 models.

Can you explain how that works? Because my instinct is that it gives you exactly the same boost no matter what your wounds. You get 1/6 more survivable, whether it's a 1/6 chance of not dying from the first shot or a 1/6 reduction in the number of wounds you take.

The only complication I can see is that some weapons might do more wounds than are needed to kill a model and soaking some of them doesn't help. But people will rarely fire high-damage weapons at 1 wound models if they have a choice and if they do, I think the trait is still helping by making your opponent use sub-optimal weapons.

I think the idea is that if someone shoots damage d3 weapons at your boyz, are you really going to bother with the FnP?

Yes? Why would you ever not take it? You still have a chance of surviving it.
If you can pass 3 5+ saves, you can pass 3 5+ FNP. And if you played WHFB or play demons, you will be rolling those 5+ saves a lot.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:

 Perfect Organism wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah. FNP helps more the more wounds you have. Works okay also for 6-7 woundish but for example it's less efficient for W1 models than it's for W12 models.

Can you explain how that works? Because my instinct is that it gives you exactly the same boost no matter what your wounds. You get 1/6 more survivable, whether it's a 1/6 chance of not dying from the first shot or a 1/6 reduction in the number of wounds you take.

The only complication I can see is that some weapons might do more wounds than are needed to kill a model and soaking some of them doesn't help. But people will rarely fire high-damage weapons at 1 wound models if they have a choice and if they do, I think the trait is still helping by making your opponent use sub-optimal weapons.

I think the idea is that if someone shoots damage d3 weapons at your boyz, are you really going to bother with the FnP?

Yes? Why would you ever not take it? You still have a chance of surviving it.
If you can pass 3 5+ saves, you can pass 3 5+ FNP. And if you played WHFB or play demons, you will be rolling those 5+ saves a lot.

Yes but 1/36 reduction is not same as 1/6.

And keep in mind rolling 3 5+ saves to 3 different models is not same as rolling 3 5+ FNP for 1 W1 model. There if you pass 2 you are still dead and those successes were 100% irrelevant. Daemons meanwhile having 5+ inv if they get hit 3 times to their W1 infantry and pass 2 of them saved just 2 guys.

FNP and inv save works totally differently. Inv save is flat out survivability boost. FNP's survivability boost is not flat. It relies on how much wounds you have and what weapon points at you.'

Oh and why not to roll: Save time for marginal gain. It's why you don't neccessarily bother to shoot every bolt pistol at that castellan knight to begin with. It's almost zero chance of affecting game but will take time which meanwhile has much bigger chance of affecting negatively to your game result. Many games are played on strict time limit either due to being tournament(strict schedule) or in store(which have closing time or maybe you have table booked only for X hours) so losing time is bigger worry than not saving that 1/36 or 1/216 orks.

Real life example where not doing something might be very smart. This spring, my orks vs dark eldar. Dark eldar kept methodically shooting and thinking. On turn 4 he spent not that insignificant time humming and hamming should he fire splinter rifles at A or B. End result is judge called out time's up, no more battle rounds. I eeked out tiny victory. Had game gone on turn 5 he would have got relic 99.99%(and some more 9's. 2 gretchin won't survive whole eldar army minus dead archon...) quaranteed relic and won the game.

And what he had to gain by humming and hamming all that much? Nothing. Actually smart thing would have been to do what I was doing and not do much on turn as neither A nor B could anymore affect game! There was literally ZERO POINT for him to shoot at them. Even if I do something miraculously lucky like drop full health dark eldar airplane with 20 shootas or so game result would have been identical and that was literally best they could even try...

The FNP is basically time sink for W1 infantry vs multi wound and you need to seriously consider is it worth the time to try to save 1 model out of 36 wounds or even worse 216.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yes? Why would you ever not take it? You still have a chance of surviving it.
If you can pass 3 5+ saves, you can pass 3 5+ FNP. And if you played WHFB or play demons, you will be rolling those 5+ saves a lot.

Time and effort I guess..? I'd still take the FnP on all the single damage and even 2damage wounds but if there's a time crunch I'm skipping those D3 wounds for sure. Obviously this depends on the battlefield and is on a case by case basis

Yeah. Angle is bad but boss does NOT ride the squig. Squig is in front of him, not under.

Squig might be just a weeeee bit unstable to ride to a battle

Bah him riding it would have been epic