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 Irbis wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
If we have contradicting claims and one on provenly unreliable source whom do you believe? The provenly unreliable source?

I know internet doesn't work like that but you know, "1 data point" =/= "proven"

You are aware right that Reece has multiple waaaaay off claims? Without even factoring in non-ork claims like Necrons(BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Necrons are strong? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! They are not GK level of suckyness but that's not saying much) even with orks he's wrong in multiple counts.

It's not just Stompa. If you think I'm only holding that against him brush up your reading skills as I have repeatedly said he's wrong in many cases.

How many times he needs to say wrong before you consider him inaccurate? 100000000000000? He has more statements wrong outside IG than he's correct. If you take what he says about power level of non-IG and think it's even same universum with truth then joke is on you.

I'm getting more and more worried for this codex... is this going to be 7th edition orks 2.0? I hope not but points are very important to this game. If a unit is half as effective as an enemy unit but is double the points then your opponent just counters you by bringing 2 of their units and smashing you while having 1 unit left over to smash more of your units.i jist have flashbacks to gork and mork.... great models but bad points and rules.

 lolman1c wrote:
I'm getting more and more worried for this codex... is this going to be 7th edition orks 2.0? I hope not but points are very important to this game. If a unit is half as effective as an enemy unit but is double the points then your opponent just counters you by bringing 2 of their units and smashing you while having 1 unit left over to smash more of your units.i jist have flashbacks to gork and mork.... great models but bad points and rules.

i know right.
maybe if kirioth is super rad and he is leaked the pts sheets for the codex can we dissuade our fears before the codex drops.

 lolman1c wrote:
I'm getting more and more worried for this codex... is this going to be 7th edition orks 2.0? I hope not but points are very important to this game. If a unit is half as effective as an enemy unit but is double the points then your opponent just counters you by bringing 2 of their units and smashing you while having 1 unit left over to smash more of your units.i jist have flashbacks to gork and mork.... great models but bad points and rules.

Certainly worrying. We are getting boost compared to our index so ork codex vs non-ork codex power gap will likely decrease. However index ork vs non-ork index gap seems to be actually increasing...

And it's not even just point costs that would solve things. 6 pts for ork boy might be good individually. 5 pts would meanwhile be ridiculous. But as an army 6 pts boyz wasn't working. 5pts boyz would also not be that much helpful. Indeed you wouldn't get enough boyz to really swamp over enemy anyway(issue you would run into would be deployment zone). Ork army has several issues with 8th ed core rules that are super hard to fix with just point costs. And doesn't look like point costs will be that great to begin with.

This is my speculation, Tankbustas base cost will go up and rokkit launchas will go down in points making them the same cost over all. Meganobs will likely drop 3 points base and the powerklaw may go down to 12 points like everyone else's powerfists (seriously why is ours 1 point more... ). Warbikers may drop around 2 points each, looking at marine bikes i can't see them dropping the points level of our bikes much...... This edition just hates bikes, unless your shining spears or dark eldar reavers!

I think our twin-linked weapons will come down in price, as why are we paying double or even more when other races get a small discount!? I can see deffkoptas dropping 5-10 points in total as they are crazy expensive. Gork/Morkanaut i can see dropping around 20 points base and then maybe another 10-20 points from the new updated weapon costs. Deffdreads really need to come down, we pay 4 points more than a normal dreadnought chassis that has 1 higher strength and BS 3+ Killa Kans i assume will stay the same base cost but will be cheaper overall due to the base weapons coming down.

Hopefully we get some cheeky surprise points cuts on our planes and other specialised squads like lootas and burnas but i cant see that happening.

They are putting a lot of emphasise on all the new buggies and speed freaks in general so I have a sneaky suspicion that all the efforts of the codex has been put towards them. Even though i was never going to use the Kustom Boosta Blasta; having it apparently cost 140 points doesnt give me much hope for the other buggies. If anything i would of thought the boomdakka snazzwagon and the KBB would be the cheapest of the lot (BDSW being around 90-100 points and the KBB being 80-90 points)

Just my thoughts overall.

 lolman1c wrote:
I'm getting more and more worried for this codex... is this going to be 7th edition orks 2.0? I hope not but points are very important to this game. If a unit is half as effective as an enemy unit but is double the points then your opponent just counters you by bringing 2 of their units and smashing you while having 1 unit left over to smash more of your units.i jist have flashbacks to gork and mork.... great models but bad points and rules.

Don't expect it to be really competitive.

tneva82 wrote:
Stompa, grots. It's not like he was wrong in just that one. Multiple things he claimed were proven to be false even before nobody got to try out index first time. It's pretty obvious he didn't do any kind of simple mathhammer let alone take model out on field before making conclusion. Likely just looked at W40 and went "wow 40 wounds" before even thinking how fast that goes out with no inv save. Or maybe he had no point costs in his playtesting version so assumed it was more like 400 pts model rather than 1000 pts model.

Maybe this has less to do with his competence and more with towing the company line so he doesn't lose his benefits.

yeah i'm not getting my hopes up... i've calculated the points for the frenchs guy army with the index and got to 1730ish points, he stated it was 1750 (codex) points so yeah... the wargear wasnt really an issue unless he played nobbikers instead of normal ones in which case we maybe got a total pointdrop of 50-100 points. thats about 3-5% across the board
but with the info of the squigbuggy beeing 140 and the dragsta beeing 110 points... yeah well... i am quite worried.
the squigbuggy has about the firepower, speed and durability of a venom which clocks in at 75 points AND can transport stuff...
the dragsta is basically a TL lascannon razoback but without the durability and transport capacity (for about the same points) it may has its place somewhere, since orks have some struggle to field AT platforms... but its surley not amazing.

furthermore
as many others pointed out, GW doesnt seem to understand that d6 more shots in an BS 5+ army just comes out as 1.2 more hits on average..
on the otherhand i like the 3d3 shots of the morkanaught... should have been done to more stuff. 2d3 is way better than d6

tneva82 wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:


You're a funny guy.

No, I've been waiting since 2012 for a new codex.

I'm well aware of the way GW does things.

Well in that case you should know GW counts PREORDER date as to which month it goes. You would also know that as october WD was leaked well ahead there was 0 chance of orks before 13th. There was 3 days orks codex could be put on preorder and count as october release. 13th, 20th, 27th. Speed freaks would be coming first and codex later. That makes it 20th or 27th. Only thing of surprise was thus commander release. Even then codex comes in time for october release as anybody who has paid half the attention to GW's release system would know

I don't understand why you're bringing this up, or why you're explaining this meaningless semantical argument to me, when it was obvious that my counterpoint was that it was irrelevant.

Still last codex in 8th for a major faction. Still not in October.

 deffrekka wrote:
This is my speculation, Tankbustas base cost will go up and rokkit launchas will go down in points making them the same cost over all. Meganobs will likely drop 3 points base and the powerklaw may go down to 12 points like everyone else's powerfists (seriously why is ours 1 point more... ). Warbikers may drop around 2 points each, looking at marine bikes i can't see them dropping the points level of our bikes much...... This edition just hates bikes, unless your shining spears or dark eldar reavers!

I think our twin-linked weapons will come down in price, as why are we paying double or even more when other races get a small discount!? I can see deffkoptas dropping 5-10 points in total as they are crazy expensive. Gork/Morkanaut i can see dropping around 20 points base and then maybe another 10-20 points from the new updated weapon costs. Deffdreads really need to come down, we pay 4 points more than a normal dreadnought chassis that has 1 higher strength and BS 3+ Killa Kans i assume will stay the same base cost but will be cheaper overall due to the base weapons coming down.

Hopefully we get some cheeky surprise points cuts on our planes and other specialised squads like lootas and burnas but i cant see that happening.

They are putting a lot of emphasise on all the new buggies and speed freaks in general so I have a sneaky suspicion that all the efforts of the codex has been put towards them. Even though i was never going to use the Kustom Boosta Blasta; having it apparently cost 140 points doesnt give me much hope for the other buggies. If anything i would of thought the boomdakka snazzwagon and the KBB would be the cheapest of the lot (BDSW being around 90-100 points and the KBB being 80-90 points)

Just my thoughts overall.

Don't get me wrong, I did think the KBB was going to be near the most expensive, but so far everything we're hearing indicates that the buggies are going to be super overpriced generalists. Their durability is such that they go down to a couple lucky D6 damage rolls, and their pricing is based on them getting the absolute most out of their weaponry and melee capabilities.

A Harlequin voidweaver is A, considered to be crap by most players, B, equivalent to the squigbuggy in average damage or better against nearly every kind of target, C, much more durable with native -1 to hit and 4++ and D, costs 108 points. The squig buggy given the power difference between the boosta-blasta and the squig buggy, its likely to be 150 points or more.

If this is the set of vehicles GW is giving the hard sell in the codex....boy oh boy do I fear for the rest of the codex.

I just don't understand it at all. And this is why I seriously thi k the points might be wrong. Why would gw spend hundreds of thousands of £££ on vehicles that people won't want to buy? I k ow they've already done this before wuth the last ork stuff but they wouldn't fall for it again would they? They're not that bad?

I mean seriously, 150pts is far too high.. it would have been crazy to sit in a room and say "yep, that's okay". Unless the rumours of the play testers is correct and they sent droves of messages to gw telling them to nerf it and gw was like "damn, gotta knee jerk that reaction!". But come on! I think it's unbelievable to think that it's going to be 150pts so I doubt hte french dude. However, if it does turn iut to be 150pts then GW will just look silly.

Maybe gw rule writers just never pulls out of cc, or have buffer zones, or play races that can pull out and shoot into cc or play factions that are not suoer elite grey knights. Or maybe they wrote the codex before 8th edition even came out and they were just waiting for the models to be ready and the speed freaks game to be ready? This would be the reasons I think if the rumours are true.

 lolman1c wrote:
I just don't understand it at all. And this is why I seriously thi k the points might be wrong. Why would gw spend hundreds of thousands of £££ on vehicles that people won't want to buy? I k ow they've already done this before wuth the last ork stuff but they wouldn't fall for it again would they? They're not that bad?

Why GW made 'orkanauts so bad on release? DA flyers? Tau flyers? Dinobots? To make things good enough to sell actually requires developer to have some ability to balance things out. GW has proven time and again they don't hire people who know how to balance things. I'm sure they are nice people and would be blast to play against them as they seem to have attitude to the game I enjoy but in terms of writing good balanced game? Need to hire other kind of people as well.

Top of that doesn't even look like the developer team has had any dedicated ork player for YEARS. You can usually tell which armies somebody in the developer team has felt passionate about. If there's no die hard ork army no surprise ork army isn't getting as good rules. They very likely don't have grey knight fan either.

Also models do sell despite bad rules.

Well the good thing is that on Saturday we should have some youtube videos of people flipping through the new codex, so we should know by then.

But as Tneva stated, not all new models get great rules so it was somewhat expected that not all the buggies would be great IMO. But if the KBB is indeed priced at 140, GWs inability to price flamers aside, then I truly don't know what to say. This isn't like when Forgebane was released and the Armigers were 240 points but then dropped 70 points when the codex arrives. If these new buggies are truly priced that poorly then we might get a fix in the spring FAQ or more likely in CA 2019.

I'll buy most of the buggies anyways, since I like the models but you gotta wonder how much money GW is leaving on the table if the rules for them are terrible..The wartrike at 120 seems fine though, even the dragsta at 110 might work even if that price is probably 20 points too high IMO.

i think i figured out GW ork point policy...

boosta blasta is 140 points
base cost of chassie bout 35points
weapons:
grot blasta: a gretchin 3points
rivet cannon: basically 2 lootaz so 34points
exhaust: well 4 burnas so 14x4 = 56points
stikkbombs are free (yay)

thats 128 throw in 12points for the d3 mortal wounds on a 4+
and VOILA! 140points worth of roosta crappa buggy

thats totally on par with a bs3, 5++, 3x s8 ap-4 d6 dmg ravager!!!

EDIT:
ravagers do not carry models^^

The who "It will be fixed in CA" is a terrible argument though. So you're telling me that in order to get the true rules to the Orks I not only had to wait over a year but now have to wait a few more months and buy another book? Couldn't they have just got it right the first time and saved me £25?

Man, we got a good deal on those stikkbombs! Nerf incoming?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lolman1c wrote:
The who "It will be fixed in CA" is a terrible argument though. So you're telling me that in order to get the true rules to the Orks I not only had to wait over a year but now have to wait a few more months and buy another book? Couldn't they have just got it right the first time and saved me £25?

I'm not saying I want that to happen, just saying that the CA in like 14 months would be the most likely place they would fix any potential problems. So let's hope the rumoured points are off

 doktor_g wrote:
Anybody know the new point cost of Boyz?

7 (praise the grandfather) points per model

RedNoak wrote:
i think i figured out GW ork point policy...

boosta blasta is 140 points
base cost of chassie bout 35points
weapons:
grot blasta: a gretchin 3points
rivet cannon: basically 2 lootaz so 34points
exhaust: well 4 burnas so 14x4 = 56points
stikkbombs are free (yay)

thats 128 throw in 12points for the d3 mortal wounds on a 4+
and VOILA! 140points worth of roosta crappa buggy

thats totally on par with a bs3, 5++, 10 model carrying, 3x s8 ap-4 d6 dmg ravager!!!

(ravagers do not carry models)

 lolman1c wrote:
The who "It will be fixed in CA" is a terrible argument though. So you're telling me that in order to get the true rules to the Orks I not only had to wait over a year but now have to wait a few more months and buy another book? Couldn't they have just got it right the first time and saved me £25?

Top of that CA2018 is too soon to codex to even include point costs due to lead times. So it will be CA2019 earliest.

Considering how late the codex release is, there is no excuse for either external or internal balance. I don't buy that argument. They had play testers that confirmed the existence of each of these things over month in advance.

They should at least be ballpark. 30-50 points overcosted on a 100-150 pt model is legitimately not excusible.

I want the models based on aesthetics, fluff, panache and design. I need a gameplay reason for the next step. I'll buy one or two to support them for getting everything else right. Please consider game design,.GW. it's not an afterthought.

None of those buggies (save for the wartrike which is obviously different) should be over 100 points. The Gragster is the best one and shouldnt be over 100. Wartrike I would spend 140 on. MAYBE 160. knowing that they will all be minimum 140 with wartrike being 220.

 Therion wrote:

Guyver 3 wrote:

geargutz wrote:
it all comes down to how GW is unable to correctly price survivability and ballistic skill.

for suvivability they think sheer amounts of wounds is enough and a pitiful d3 wonds repaired a round. so our expensive beefy stompa should cost way more then the knight becasue double wounds right? nope. any lascanon will melt through those wounds in no time, we cant even stack repairs anymore.

for balistic skill they are the most ignorant game maker for their own rules. most will say that shooting is even better then it was last edition, so thus anything that doesnt shoot well should be cheap right? nope. orks still pay alot for the damage and shots of our wpns, not the actual hit chance. just look at the dragsta for evidence of this. its our most accurate model yet it is very close to price to all the other bs5 buggies we got.

the dragsta will probably be the best selling buggy during this release.

I think it’s obvious that gw costs units on what they could do not what they will averagely will do.

Really? So that’s why the Shadowsword that can potentially do 114 wounds to the Stompa in one phase costs only 404 points? They pointed it based on what it can do? It’s so obvious!

Sorry I wasn’t clear but I was refurring to ork units generally being costed at max efficiency as we’re in an ork forum,

GW are totally random with over/under costing in other armies.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
None of those buggies (save for the wartrike which is obviously different) should be over 100 points. The Gragster is the best one and shouldnt be over 100. Wartrike I would spend 140 on. MAYBE 160. knowing that they will all be minimum 140 with wartrike being 220.

If we're going off just PL, the squig truck will be the most expensive points wise (which is nuts as it looks the weakest). I'll guess 90-130 points for the lot.

Without trolling, I'm genuinely not understanding why peeps feel the Squigtrukk is the weakest.

Looking at it, it's the most flexible of all the buggies, with ammo types to pose a threat to most targets. The others feel far more specialised. Squig Mine though is more 'nice to have' than a reason to take the Buggy, that I get.

Massive mistake on gws part
Expensive in £££
Over priced in points
Weak rules

I just can’t justify taking any of them in a game and I play speed freaks!!

If they dropped the points to a normal level 75-100 maybe but this is the case yet again that gw just doesn’t understand orks or how to points cost them.

I sound ungrateful but it actually tears me up that I won’t be buying or using these fantastic models.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Without trolling, I'm genuinely not understanding why peeps feel the Squigtrukk is the weakest.

Looking at it, it's the most flexible of all the buggies, with ammo types to pose a threat to most targets. The others feel far more specialised. Squig Mine though is more 'nice to have' than a reason to take the Buggy, that I get.

Heh you actually like it for reason it's bad then. Flexible. Generalist. In edition where specialitation rules.

This evening the french wargame studio will stream on youtube a Speed Freaks game so hoping for new leaks. (in 5 hours 30 now.)

Just asked them:
"- All i want to know is if i can bring orks to tournaments without the shame of ever bringing 200+ boyz..."
- Oh absolutely yes."

i swear to god everything new GW puts out for other factions is always underpriced by a medium to large margin, but orks is always overpriced.....

tneva82 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Without trolling, I'm genuinely not understanding why peeps feel the Squigtrukk is the weakest.

Looking at it, it's the most flexible of all the buggies, with ammo types to pose a threat to most targets. The others feel far more specialised. Squig Mine though is more 'nice to have' than a reason to take the Buggy, that I get.

Heh you actually like it for reason it's bad then. Flexible. Generalist. In edition where specialitation rules.

I also like the squig buggy for its flexibility too. Am I also wrong? For people that like all comers lists it's fine. Conversely the much applauded shokkjump dragsta would be terrible against hordes.

There's more than one way to play and you don't surprise me you aren't keen on flexibility...

Just because we disagree doesn't make us wrong.

Okay, the fact is I am now calming down and 150pts is far to much. I think maybe he payed 150pts for two because I honestly couldn't see even GW being that bad. You're expected to take 3 in a unit so that would mean 3 would be about the same price as the smaller baneblades.