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the_scotsman wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Just end this thread, 6 point assault marines is ridiculous.

They would just walk their marines across the table and win every game against me. They could literally take only assault marines, jump pack captains, and librarians on bikes, and win every game against me.

I mean seriously, 3 maxed out spearheads gets you 180 assault marines, 3 captains with jump packs, for under 1500 points. You could take Azrael with them and they'd all have 4++.

The only reason Orks aren't crushing literally everyone is because their dudes have a 6+ save. And even then, a proper Green Tide is hard to deal with, it's just a matter of time constraints, and the fact that volume shooting exists (hello, baneblade variants, for ex).

They are far superior to a 6 point unit.

Match up an assault marine versus a Gargoyle. (6 points). You win every time.

Oh my god, a Marines Suck thread that's so absurd it has caused a schism in the faith!

Soon we will have the Reformed Church of Marines Suck and the Orthodox Marine Suckists running about having holy wars with each other.

LOL max 30 assault marines. Rule of 3 bro.

Wouldn't you just run 30 Regular assault marines, 30 BA assault marines, 30 DA assault marines and 30 SW assault marines?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Lol they can actually get that with a aegis defense line. It's actually pretty OP - a guy at my store does it. He's a genius.

I'd love it if the guard players around here reduced their CPs and firepower by a whole detachment just to get an Aegis Line. Though you still have to be within 2" of it to get cover, so units with Fly can safely fly over them (after your shooting wipes out the units not in cover of course).

I really feel like L2p is in order here. How do you fly over if there is no room to place your unit? You can't! LOL.

Martel732 wrote:
All of this holds true for vv, too. Except they give up points even faster.

Vanguard will at least put a dent in a unit for 10 points more.

Please don't defend the Assault Marine entry. YOU of all people should know better than that.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Lol they can actually get that with a aegis defense line. It's actually pretty OP - a guy at my store does it. He's a genius.

I'd love it if the guard players around here reduced their CPs and firepower by a whole detachment just to get an Aegis Line. Though you still have to be within 2" of it to get cover, so units with Fly can safely fly over them (after your shooting wipes out the units not in cover of course).

I really feel like L2p is in order here. How do you fly over if there is no room to place your unit? You can't! LOL.

You shoot the units behind the one that is using the aegis line as cover, then charge over the unit in front...

...Y'know, like I've been trying to illustrate this entire thread, with statments like "stop 1" in front of the line of guardsmen, shoot a hole, then charge through."

The only thing the Aegis line changes is that you can leave the front squad alone that's tucked behind the Aegis line, since you can just charge over them...

Martel732 wrote:
I don't see the hoopla around the castellan myself. Seems like marginal shooting for the incredible price tag.

It’s got more than marginal shooting and if has a 3++. It’s a very straightforward model that if anything is undercosted.

Karol wrote:
Wouldn't you just run 30 Regular assault marines, 30 BA assault marines, 30 DA assault marines and 30 SW assault marines?

Pretty sure it doesn't work like that. If it does though - I think it's safe to say rule of 3 should just be disregarded in all forms or completely rewritten to not allow it.

Well they are different units, they have different rules, They even have different names, why wouldn't they be separate options?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
All of this holds true for vv, too. Except they give up points even faster.

Vanguard will at least put a dent in a unit for 10 points more.

Please don't defend the Assault Marine entry. YOU of all people should know better than that.

No, it's that all jump marine entries are useless. ASM just give away points the slowest.

Karol wrote:
Well they are different units, they have different rules, They even have different names, why wouldn't they be separate options?

Because they are the same units. They have the same rules - they basically have a different chapter tactic is all.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Karol wrote:
Wouldn't you just run 30 Regular assault marines, 30 BA assault marines, 30 DA assault marines and 30 SW assault marines?

Pretty sure it doesn't work like that. If it does though - I think it's safe to say rule of 3 should just be disregarded in all forms or completely rewritten to not allow it.

I mean, riddle me this: Daemon Prince, Daemon Prince from the CSM codex, Daemon Prince from the Tsons codex?

*is ignored*

Ok, well, glad that that Aegis Line guy will feel like less of a genius when you use real tactics against him next time.

I'm not sure how great the aegis line thing is, but post-faq, running out of marines about the time you reach the tanks is a thing for sure.

The jumping over guard screens still seems like a noob stomper tactic to me.

Why am I not surprised this turned into a marines vs guardsmen thread despite IG not having jumppack options?

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Maybe the problem isnt points tho.... everything is good if points are low enough to make up for poor rules.

Look at the start of 8th, DE Razorflock spam won tournaments with T3, S3 melee units with 0 saves.

Making them a few points cheaper is a good start, but i'd rather them have a couple core rules changes.

I'd agree with this. Their primary problem is simply.... why? Regardless of cost, why do I want to drop this unit in? Their output is incredibly mediocre, not even just for their cost, but just in general. The likelihood of them doing nothing is pretty staggering, which makes them a pretty unimpressive pick regardless of cost.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Karol wrote:
Wouldn't you just run 30 Regular assault marines, 30 BA assault marines, 30 DA assault marines and 30 SW assault marines?

Pretty sure it doesn't work like that. If it does though - I think it's safe to say rule of 3 should just be disregarded in all forms or completely rewritten to not allow it.

I mean, riddle me this: Daemon Prince, Daemon Prince from the CSM codex, Daemon Prince from the Tsons codex?

If they have different unit names you can do it. Otherwise you can't - that's what I understood.

 Billagio wrote:
Why am I not surprised this turned into a marines vs guardsmen thread despite IG not having jumppack options?

It's all part of the standard service call/response after the reading from the gospel.

"let us proclaim the weakness of marines"

"it is right to give them points and buffs"

"unwinnable games be with you"

"and also with you"

"Protect us oh GW, from all disintegrators, and from all guardsmen screens and CP batteries. Lead us not into nerfs, but deliver us from eldar, so that we may reach everlasting competitiveness."

"plastic army men"

 Billagio wrote:
Why am I not surprised this turned into a marines vs guardsmen thread despite IG not having jumppack options?

Orks stomp asm, too. Feel better?

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not sure how great the aegis line thing is, but post-faq, running out of marines about the time you reach the tanks is a thing for sure.

The jumping over guard screens still seems like a noob stomper tactic to me.

Just remember that you have as much control over where their screens are when you charge as they do, since you can shoot the screens before you make your charge moves.
And it's not a flawless tactic (none are, because of dice and differing table situations / deployment zones), but it's an example of the utility of having Jump Pack troops.

Running out of marines before you reach the tanks is a different problem entirely, and not one I've yet encountered (my Sororitas are never in danger of this, bringing something like 100 power-armored-or-better models), so I can't speak on how to beat it. That depends on things like Line of Sight, force concentration, the style of the Guard army (whether or not the tanks are artillery or direct-fire, etc), even who gets to pick the deployment zone and where the objectives are placed. I even have rules-of-thumb governing what style of deployment zone I pick based on what my opponent's army is - for example, if they're running artillery screened by Guardsmen, make them have the zone with LOS Blocking Terrain that is as far apart as possible, so they either have to deploy an artillery tank in LOS or stretch their screens quite wide to cover both LOS blocking terrain pieces. Alternatively, if they bring tanks, then I will pick the zone with the most LOS blocking terrain in the center, forcing my opponent to commit his tanks to one flank or another and I can load the other flank, using the very terrain itself as LOS blocking, or he can split his tanks, in which case I only endure half the firepower on any given flank.

I try to make utmost use of the fact that my 100-ish power-armor models (including 2 tanks) take up far less space than his 120 bodies and 8 tanks, giving me the ability to concentrate a hammerblow that can silence enough of his models that I can deal with his army piecemeal.

Marmatag has always run the risk of being an apostate of the Church of Marines Suck. He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.

The Xeno branch and the Slayer branch are End-Timers and the Inquisitorial subfaction. They don't disagree often, but they have slightly different takes on the faith.

Martel is the Latin-Mass-fanatic of the bunch. He might not break the faith with the current mainstream Church, but doesn't fully ascribe to either subfaction.

The internal politics are entertaining, even though they don't directly interact so much.

It's a little nauseating how much better sisters are than marines. ScIons are better marines than marines, too. I should be getting used to it by now.

I can even jump guys with boltguns, but they are largely useless now because of the faq and point cost on them.

Martel732 wrote:
It's a little nauseating how much better sisters are than marines. ScIons are better marines than marines, too. I should be getting used to it by now.

I can even jump guys with boltguns, but they are largely useless now because of the faq and point cost on them.

Perhaps the problem, then, is that Marines are bad, rather than Guard being too good?

Bharring wrote:
Marmatag has always run the risk of being an apostate of the Church of Marines Suck. He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.

The Xeno branch and the Slayer branch are End-Timers and the Inquisitorial subfaction. They don't disagree often, but they have slightly different takes on the faith.

Martel is the Latin-Mass-fanatic of the bunch. He might not break the faith with the current mainstream Church, but doesn't fully ascribe to either subfaction.

The internal politics are entertaining, even though they don't directly interact so much.

That's because Xeno makes stupid ideas when it comes to fixing Marines and nerfing other units. I'll admit I'm pretty conservative with my fixes (for example I'm for Infantry squads going to 45 points, as you can't modify the squad size at all, which keeps a good neutral ground for people that want to keep them the same and people that want the unit entry obliterated). Sometimes being conservative is a good thing though.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's a little nauseating how much better sisters are than marines. ScIons are better marines than marines, too. I should be getting used to it by now.

I can even jump guys with boltguns, but they are largely useless now because of the faq and point cost on them.

Perhaps the problem, then, is that Marines are bad, rather than Guard being too good?

As bharring has pointed out, there is a two-tier system for infantry. Guardsmen do seem too good even compared to kabalites, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Marmatag has always run the risk of being an apostate of the Church of Marines Suck. He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.

The Xeno branch and the Slayer branch are End-Timers and the Inquisitorial subfaction. They don't disagree often, but they have slightly different takes on the faith.

Martel is the Latin-Mass-fanatic of the bunch. He might not break the faith with the current mainstream Church, but doesn't fully ascribe to either subfaction.

The internal politics are entertaining, even though they don't directly interact so much.

That's because Xeno makes stupid ideas when it comes to fixing Marines and nerfing other units. I'll admit I'm pretty conservative with my fixes (for example I'm for Infantry squads going to 45 points, as you can't modify the squad size at all, which keeps a good neutral ground for people that want to keep them the same and people that want the unit entry obliterated). Sometimes being conservative is a good thing though.

When does the church obliterate space wolves? I'm all in on that one.

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's a little nauseating how much better sisters are than marines. ScIons are better marines than marines, too. I should be getting used to it by now.

I can even jump guys with boltguns, but they are largely useless now because of the faq and point cost on them.

Perhaps the problem, then, is that Marines are bad, rather than Guard being too good?

As bharring has pointed out, there is a two-tier system for infantry. Guardsmen do seem too good even compared to kabalites, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Marmatag has always run the risk of being an apostate of the Church of Marines Suck. He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.

The Xeno branch and the Slayer branch are End-Timers and the Inquisitorial subfaction. They don't disagree often, but they have slightly different takes on the faith.

Martel is the Latin-Mass-fanatic of the bunch. He might not break the faith with the current mainstream Church, but doesn't fully ascribe to either subfaction.

The internal politics are entertaining, even though they don't directly interact so much.

That's because Xeno makes stupid ideas when it comes to fixing Marines and nerfing other units. I'll admit I'm pretty conservative with my fixes (for example I'm for Infantry squads going to 45 points, as you can't modify the squad size at all, which keeps a good neutral ground for people that want to keep them the same and people that want the unit entry obliterated). Sometimes being conservative is a good thing though.

When does the church obliterate space wolves? I'm all in on that one.

Yeah you dont see kabals in hordes on the table for good reasons, even at 6ppm they still dont have the damage like guardsman does, they dont get FRFSRF, their traits/army buffs are minor for them, 5+/6++ T3 24" wound on 4 and vehicles on 6.. with maybe a re-roll to hit of 1 or wound of 1, and thats it, they dont do enough damage on the table by themselves, and they dont have mortars or other useful weapons, a Splinter cannons and DL isnt good on infantry.

Martel732 wrote:
[As bharring has pointed out, there is a two-tier system for infantry. Guardsmen do seem too good even compared to kabalites, though.

Is Sororitas on the top tier with Kabalites and Guardsmen and Admech or the bottom tier with Marines?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Karol wrote:
Wouldn't you just run 30 Regular assault marines, 30 BA assault marines, 30 DA assault marines and 30 SW assault marines?

Pretty sure it doesn't work like that. If it does though - I think it's safe to say rule of 3 should just be disregarded in all forms or completely rewritten to not allow it.

It does work like this. They have different data sheets.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
[As bharring has pointed out, there is a two-tier system for infantry. Guardsmen do seem too good even compared to kabalites, though.

Is Sororitas on the top tier with Kabalites and Guardsmen and Admech or the bottom tier with Marines?

Forgot where he put them. I can only assume top.

In truth I don't have a vested interest in the outcome of balance discussions in regards to marines. I don't play them. I play Tyranids.

And I don't think marines are as far off from balance as people say. The problem, as I see it, is two overperforming factions: Imperial Guard & Eldar. Marines actually have quite a few solid tools at their disposal, and if you play Tyranids for a week you'd understand that a 3+ save is far more durable than a 6+ save. The fact that it's being tossed around lightly is getting silly.

The best way to understand the value of a 3+ is to run units without a 3+.

Except for me. Because my DAs with a shimmershield make more 5++s than my whole army makes 3+/4+ saves. That 5++ has like an 80% success rate.