Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Bharring wrote:
The best way to understand the value of a 3+ is to run units without a 3+.

Except for me. Because my DAs with a shimmershield make more 5++s than my whole army makes 3+/4+ saves. That 5++ has like an 80% success rate.

Catalyst'd Genestealers have a 5++/5+++.

Assuming 1 damage weapons, that effectively promotes them to a little better than a 4+ save.

For reference, that is:

1. A psychic power. (doesn't scale)
2. Assumed synapse coverage. (extra cost!)
3. A unit with no guns. (guns are for filthy mammals with no claws)
4. A move speed of 8". (jump packs are for weak legs)
5. A unit with no real transport options (It's hard to fit into a seat when you have a billion arms)
6. A unit with the same toughness as marines.

Which costs 1 point less per model than marines.

So let's talk more about durability.

 Marmatag wrote:
In truth I don't have a vested interest in the outcome of balance discussions in regards to marines. I don't play them. I play Tyranids.

And I don't think marines are as far off from balance as people say. The problem, as I see it, is two overperforming factions: Imperial Guard & Eldar. Marines actually have quite a few solid tools at their disposal, and if you play Tyranids for a week you'd understand that a 3+ save is far more durable than a 6+ save. The fact that it's being tossed around lightly is getting silly.

Or just like, a single game. People aren’t shooting plasma guns at Termagants if they don’t have to.

Bharring wrote:
The best way to understand the value of a 3+ is to run units without a 3+.

Except for me. Because my DAs with a shimmershield make more 5++s than my whole army makes 3+/4+ saves. That 5++ has like an 80% success rate.

I do now, and i like them much better. Too many ways 3+ can fail in 8th. The 5++ is very weak on da, but incredibly strong on a raider or venom.

But the 3+ infantry save is a pure liability in 8th because of how gw prices it. And how they price weapons that cut through through easily.

 Marmatag wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The best way to understand the value of a 3+ is to run units without a 3+.

Except for me. Because my DAs with a shimmershield make more 5++s than my whole army makes 3+/4+ saves. That 5++ has like an 80% success rate.

Catalyst'd Genestealers have a 5++/5+++.

Assuming 1 damage weapons, that effectively promotes them to a little better than a 4+ save.

For reference, that is:

1. A psychic power. (doesn't scale)
2. Assumed synapse coverage. (extra cost!)
3. A unit with no guns. (guns are for filthy mammals with no claws)
4. A move speed of 8". (jump packs are for weak legs)

Which costs 1 point less per model than marines.

Tell me more about how your 3+ isn't durable.

It's not like they have 4 attacks in CC with amazing weapons, good morale even without Synapse, better protection against Mortal Wounds with Catalyst up, and the ability to advance and charge. Nope, none of that!

Bharring wrote:
The best way to understand the value of a 3+ is to run units without a 3+.

Except for me. Because my DAs with a shimmershield make more 5++s than my whole army makes 3+/4+ saves. That 5++ has like an 80% success rate.

I run Skitarii almost pure. That's 4+/6++.

No there isn't a value to a 3+ if the unit isn't costed correctly. Value come from the point value + stats, not the stats themselves.

Bharring wrote:
The best way to understand the value of a 3+ is to run units without a 3+.

Except for me. Because my DAs with a shimmershield make more 5++s than my whole army makes 3+/4+ saves. That 5++ has like an 80% success rate.

Good job jinxing yourself. Next game, you won't make a single one.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The best way to understand the value of a 3+ is to run units without a 3+.

Except for me. Because my DAs with a shimmershield make more 5++s than my whole army makes 3+/4+ saves. That 5++ has like an 80% success rate.

Catalyst'd Genestealers have a 5++/5+++.

Assuming 1 damage weapons, that effectively promotes them to a little better than a 4+ save.

For reference, that is:

1. A psychic power. (doesn't scale)
2. Assumed synapse coverage. (extra cost!)
3. A unit with no guns. (guns are for filthy mammals with no claws)
4. A move speed of 8". (jump packs are for weak legs)

Which costs 1 point less per model than marines.

Tell me more about how your 3+ isn't durable.

It's not like they have 4 attacks in CC with amazing weapons, good morale even without Synapse, better protection against Mortal Wounds with Catalyst up, and the ability to advance and charge. Nope, none of that!

The expected value of an advance roll is 3.5, putting their movement lower than jump packs. I run them as Kraken so my move speed is slightly faster, but not by much. So, every turn jump pack buddies are moving 12 and then can charge. Objectively better than advance and charge without Kraken.

They have 3 base attacks, you must maintain a squad size of 10+ to get that extra attack. News flash, they die quickly. Rending claws are solid. Without them, Genestealers would be in the gutter. They cost twice as much as an Ork Boy.

If you leave Genestealers exposed to deep strike shooting they are vaporized in a turn, catalyst or not. If you leave them exposed to guard shooting they're also vaporized in a turn. If they are charged by Boyz, or any other dedicated melee unit, they die before they fight.

And leadership 10 doesn't mean a whole lot. It does if your models are durable, though.

Models are op, all models needs a points fix.

Lower by .5".
With Kraken, they're actually faster, on average.

And oh no, only THREE ATTACKS! Man, they must be absolute GARBAGE what with only having three attacks!

My 1 Attack Plaguebearers with no AP, a 5" move without advance and charge (unless you pay for the tree), Leadership 7 and incredibly unreliable morale mitigation, well... They're crying for you.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Lower by .5".
With Kraken, they're actually faster, on average.

And oh no, only THREE ATTACKS! Man, they must be absolute GARBAGE what with only having three attacks!

My 1 Attack Plaguebearers with no AP, a 5" move without advance and charge (unless you pay for the tree), Leadership 7 and incredibly unreliable morale mitigation, well... They're crying for you.

Death Guard are top tier. World's smallest violin plays for you.

Waddle your plagueburst crawlers to the front line. I'll be eating ridiculous overwatch, and wounding on 6s, which you will still have a feel no pain for. Yeah, you are so hard up. Then mortarian eliminates a whole squad per turn. Yawnfest.

Plaguebearers aren't Death Guard. They're Daemons.

Edit: Poxwalkers are actually two attacks base. Though their move is only 4" and they have a 7+ instead of a 5++. Still, cheaper than Plaguebearers.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Plaguebearers aren't Death Guard. They're Daemons.

Edit: Poxwalkers are actually two attacks base. Though their move is only 4" and they have a 7+ instead of a 5++. Still, cheaper than Plaguebearers.

If you're bringing chaos and elect to bring weaker units i can't help you, soup exists, brothy, delicious soup. Use your soup. The second the GSC codex drops i'm going to exploit my only soup option with no shame.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Plaguebearers aren't Death Guard. They're Daemons.

Edit: Poxwalkers are actually two attacks base. Though their move is only 4" and they have a 7+ instead of a 5++. Still, cheaper than Plaguebearers.

Yep, and the moment you include them in your army you lose Inexorable Advance on everyone else!

 Marmatag wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Plaguebearers aren't Death Guard. They're Daemons.

Edit: Poxwalkers are actually two attacks base. Though their move is only 4" and they have a 7+ instead of a 5++. Still, cheaper than Plaguebearers.

If you're bringing chaos and elect to bring weaker units i can't help you, soup exists, brothy, delicious soup. Use your soup. The second the GSC codex drops i'm going to exploit my only soup option with no shame.

Well, then just bring Guardsmen already. You can do that easily-bring a Supreme Command of GSC (say, two Maguses and a Patriarch or something) and then bring Guard to shore up your weaknesses.

But, as a Nurgle Daemons player and NOT a Death Guard player... Yeah. Genestealers freaking rock. They're not especially durable, but they hit like a truck.

And, as a note... You're basically saying "Don't bring what you like, bring what's good." Which is fine advice for winning. Why are you playing Nids, then, and not Imperium, Chaos, or Eldar Soup? That's stronger than Nids, and clearly, from this post, you only care about winning. Or do you like your Nids, just like I like Daemons, and therefore want them to be better, instead of just ditching what you like for what's good?

Marmatag,
Your parentheticals on the first post of this page mean you win this page.

Martel,
Just so you aren't mislead, DAs have a 4+ not a 5+ - it's just the ShimmerShield that's a 5++ (and DA Exarchs have 4++ shield or no).
Also, great response to the church politics writeup.

Bharring wrote:
The best way to understand the value of a 3+ is to run units without a 3+.

Except for me. Because my DAs with a shimmershield make more 5++s than my whole army makes 3+/4+ saves. That 5++ has like an 80% success rate.

Coming from a Tyranid player that also have a large 3+ save army, its VASTLY different, my SoB have about 80 models, my Tyranids has about 120 models, and its a HUGE difference, i could love 40 gants in a turn where i never lose 40 sisters

Bharring wrote:
Marmatag,
Your parentheticals on the first post of this page mean you win this page.

Martel,
Just so you aren't mislead, DAs have a 4+ not a 5+ - it's just the ShimmerShield that's a 5++ (and DA Exarchs have 4++ shield or no).
Also, great response to the church politics writeup.

Yeah, i know da are one of the few actually worse off than marines. Even with 5++. Bolters still remove a ton of them, which sucks for their cost.

I still disagree with that. I think DA are just about in line with Marines, but a little ahead - to the point of maybe 1 or 2 ppm, and that only because of the Exarch. I don't think they're in as bad shape as Marines, although they're not far from it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Bolters should remove a ton of them. They're Space Elves.)

My experience has been that Bolters don't remove THAT many and that was in 7e when Bolters hurt more.

Bolters dont deal damage like that in terms of points to any other faction that i know of.

pm713 wrote:
My experience has been that Bolters don't remove THAT many and that was in 7e when Bolters hurt more.

Mostly because you don't fire off enough bolter shots. Anyone who's played against Custodes knows just how effective massed bolter fire is at clearing away T3 6+ models like cultists.

Cheap bolter shots work. Concentrated bolter shots work. Matines have neither.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Plaguebearers aren't Death Guard. They're Daemons.

Edit: Poxwalkers are actually two attacks base. Though their move is only 4" and they have a 7+ instead of a 5++. Still, cheaper than Plaguebearers.

If you're bringing chaos and elect to bring weaker units i can't help you, soup exists, brothy, delicious soup. Use your soup. The second the GSC codex drops i'm going to exploit my only soup option with no shame.

Well, then just bring Guardsmen already. You can do that easily-bring a Supreme Command of GSC (say, two Maguses and a Patriarch or something) and then bring Guard to shore up your weaknesses.

But, as a Nurgle Daemons player and NOT a Death Guard player... Yeah. Genestealers freaking rock. They're not especially durable, but they hit like a truck.

And, as a note... You're basically saying "Don't bring what you like, bring what's good." Which is fine advice for winning. Why are you playing Nids, then, and not Imperium, Chaos, or Eldar Soup? That's stronger than Nids, and clearly, from this post, you only care about winning. Or do you like your Nids, just like I like Daemons, and therefore want them to be better, instead of just ditching what you like for what's good?

I'm doing very, very well with my Tyranids since the codex dropped. And I like genestealers. I run 40 of them for a reason. But they require a lot of thought to play right.

And Plaguebearers and Poxwalkers are pretty much the same thing. This isn't like i'm asking you to throw your models in the trash. And it's Guard without regimental bonuses. If i could get all of the stratagems, command points, regimental bonuses, relics, etc, that full synergy with Guard gives you, I would absolutely have to soup in guard. But you know how limited it is - i assume - which makes your argument rather disingenuous.

You don't get regimental tactics, but you get Strats, you get the CP regen if you want, you get relics... The ONLY THING you don't get are regiment specific things, which are nice to have. But, if guard are as OP as you claim... Surely losing that would still leave them amazing, yes?

And no, they aren't. Learn your Chaos.

Lastly, I want to play Nurgle Daemons. Not Chaos Marines, not Tzeentch, not anything but Daemons of Papa Nurgle. So saying "Use Death Guard vehicles, they kick ass!" is pretty much the same as me telling you "Play one of the three big soups, they kick ass!"

 JNAProductions wrote:
You don't get regimental tactics, but you get Strats, you get the CP regen if you want, you get relics...

Right, and I get nothing regimental specific, which cuts that field down further.

 JNAProductions wrote:
But, if guard are as OP as you claim... Surely losing that would still leave them amazing, yes?

Are you trying to make an argument or be a troll? Pick one. For instance, I can throw in a baneblade variant, but i can't make it hit on 2s with -1 to hit and a 2+ save, or make it outflank, etc. Come on man.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Lastly, I want to play Nurgle Daemons. Not Chaos Marines, not Tzeentch, not anything but Daemons of Papa Nurgle. So saying "Use Death Guard vehicles, they kick ass!" is pretty much the same as me telling you "Play one of the three big soups, they kick ass!"

It's really not, you're still united under the chaos banner. Saying that "guard is to Tyranids" as "death guard is to nurgle" is a dumb argument and you should see that without me having to explain why.

But would you argue Marines are top tier, because they can take Guardsmen - as they're Imperial?

Bharring wrote:
But would you argue Marines are top tier, because they can take Guardsmen - as they're Imperial?

BA battalions definitely are top tier in Imperium armies. Those tend to be Scouts, Captains, maybe Mephiston or Sanguinary Guard. But what's there is top tier.

Bharring wrote:
But would you argue Marines are top tier, because they can take Guardsmen - as they're Imperial?

No. But I wouldn't argue that mono-Nurgle Daemons are top tier either. You'll notice that I am fairly consistent in referencing "chaos" as a faction when i do my rankings.

And Guardsmen alone don't make Guard top tier.

meleti wrote:

Bharring wrote:
But would you argue Marines are top tier, because they can take Guardsmen - as they're Imperial?

BA battalions definitely are top tier in Imperium armies. Those tend to be Scouts, Captains, maybe Mephiston or Sanguinary Guard. But what's there is top tier.

SG are garbage tier, but the rest I agree with.

Martel732 wrote:

meleti wrote:

Bharring wrote:
But would you argue Marines are top tier, because they can take Guardsmen - as they're Imperial?

BA battalions definitely are top tier in Imperium armies. Those tend to be Scouts, Captains, maybe Mephiston or Sanguinary Guard. But what's there is top tier.

SG are garbage tier, but the rest I agree with.

They're the weakest part and don't make it into lists now that Knights have come up, but the SG package was them and a Sang Priest and it definitely got work done. Made it into a lot of competitive armies from February until June/July when the Knights showed up in force.

edit: oh, and Drukhari screwing over BA stratagems was a big factor there as well.