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Price point and PVC along with Shipping and Handing to the UK. I own a lot of Tres stuff but I brought through Hasslefree. Also frankly multi-part PVC is a hassle and does not compete with HIPS at an even close price point, as HIPs is just a far nicer material to use. Take Mantics PVC £20 for 3 Obsidian Golems vs GW's Bullgors with 3 at £28.50 or the Revenant Knights at £25 for 10 versus GW's Back Knight at £40 for 10 only at this disparity does PVC compete. The point is PVC is not the choice for higher quality miniatures. £30 for 16 PVC models vs £28 for 20 Shieldwolf Mountain orcs that I can get now rather than next year, with far more posing options in a far better material? I do own a lot of PVC orcs as well which doesn't help matters. Between Green Horde and Massive Darkness I've got enough and even then I didn't back on the basis of them but the game and the other models which added value to the deal.

I think there were three main reasons I didn't bite on this one even though I do like Tre's stuff and have a bunch of it

PVC:
I don't hate it and am happy to get boardgames with PVC minis but for a minis only campaign it's not something that's attractive

Concerns over shrinkage:
Tre basically said he wasn't going to redo anything to account for the material other than thickening some of the weapons and I don't think that's enough, Reaper Bones, and some of the earlier CMON games have shown me that you DO need to sculpt to the material otherwise you end up with micro heads, loss of detail that's not deep enough etc. The goblins especially would be a major worry

(ie Gallahad, well there will be 2 new leg sets sculpted for this campaign but other than that I have no plans to resculpt anything else. I think based on what I have seen recently from the manufacturers I am working with that these will produce well.

I WILL be thickening the weapon shafts so I guess that would count as something beign sculpted specifically for PVC material)

I've just got too much of these already:
I've got too many of these in the unpainted pile already, along with a bunch I've painted too, so the draw of more of the same is weaker


and I guess once you add up the above the one thing Tre can't do anything about put the nail in the coffin is, a small single box pledge would cost me $60 when you factor in taxes and handling fees, and then there's shipping on top of that

PVC is a nono.. there is only one decent plastic and that is HIPS.

If the entrance cost for HIPS is to high, than metal or proper resin is the only way.

The only advantage of PVC is that it’s cheaper than any other material. And right there is the reason this didn’t fund.

$40 PVC? Nope.

I backed initially, but then dropped my pledge.

You have to sculpt to the material for PVC. Additionally, if you want me to help fund your first rodeo with Chinese production, you need to offer me a heck of a deal, because I'm taking on significant risk. This KS was basically priced like we were collectively hiring Tre to sculpt and manage production for some miniatures, not like he wanted us to make an investment in his business. The former model works fine for low risk stuff like metal. Also, with only two body options for each type of orc, there was pretty limited unique sculpts available.

The risk/reward ratio was off.

Yeah i was put off by the PVC and no re-sculpting to make up for the shrinkage of the different materials.

I guess I'm the only one with no qualms about the PVC? I've been quite satisfied with all my CMON board games and Reaper Bones figures.

I'm no ebay propainter, but if I can get satisfactory results from this stuff I don't think it's as bad as a lot of you make it out to be.

I had backed with a strong desire for PVC goblins, but my concern was the shrinkage issue as well.

Having them sculpted from the get- go with PVC in mind is probably a better idea.

Now I would have much preferred all that dark fantasy stuff with multiple factions and reptilian goodies that Tre teased ages ago...

PVC goblins? I have some from Massive Darkness and Mantic and can easily get more from Reaper and D&D as well. There was also a major difference between Reaper Bones / CMON or even Mythic Battles Pantheon to this though and thats value. All had individual models at approximately a dollar a figure and most had an attached game. Also these were for Board Games and RPG's not wargames were frankly multipose is less attractive. It also ignores the fact that Mantic, GW and Shieldwolf all make reasonable HIPS plastic Orcs which were cheaper and Bones, CMON and D&D have all produced readily available equivalents in PVC and there are far more in Metal & Resin. This creates a perfect storm. Tre's offerings were high quality in the design stage and I wouldn't immediately discount backing a PVC kickstarter from him again but what pushes my buttons for a kickstarter is the must have model i.e. the Hellephant from Massive Darkness or the Zombie Minotaur in Black Plague or the Dragon in Joan of Arc all of which took advantage of PVC to make a model which is frankly impractical to make at a similar price point in Resin or Metal (or indeed almost impossible to make practically in the material like the Dragon) and are not practical to sell enough of to justify a HIPS mould. Personally I honestly like PVC for monsters like this as it's cheaper, easy to carry and less intimidating to paint.....

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
I guess I'm the only one with no qualms about the PVC? I've been quite satisfied with all my CMON board games and Reaper Bones figures.

I'm no ebay propainter, but if I can get satisfactory results from this stuff I don't think it's as bad as a lot of you make it out to be.

I had backed with a strong desire for PVC goblins, but my concern was the shrinkage issue as well.

Having them sculpted from the get- go with PVC in mind is probably a better idea.

Now I would have much preferred all that dark fantasy stuff with multiple factions and reptilian goodies that Tre teased ages ago...

CMON sculpts for the material though, and I would say that the human size reaper bones offerings are less than satisfactory in my experience.

I'd be perfectly happy with decent PVC quality stuff from Red Box, but I'm only willing to pay PVC prices for it, not HIPS+ prices.

I want to use my mins and not just have them on a shelf. PVC is the best for that hands down. Tre is one of the few people I'll buy metal from anymore as I really have come to hate the stuff.

 Gallahad wrote:

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
I guess I'm the only one with no qualms about the PVC? I've been quite satisfied with all my CMON board games and Reaper Bones figures.

I'm no ebay propainter, but if I can get satisfactory results from this stuff I don't think it's as bad as a lot of you make it out to be.

I had backed with a strong desire for PVC goblins, but my concern was the shrinkage issue as well.

Having them sculpted from the get- go with PVC in mind is probably a better idea.

Now I would have much preferred all that dark fantasy stuff with multiple factions and reptilian goodies that Tre teased ages ago...

CMON sculpts for the material though, and I would say that the human size reaper bones offerings are less than satisfactory in my experience.

I'd be perfectly happy with decent PVC quality stuff from Red Box, but I'm only willing to pay PVC prices for it, not HIPS+ prices.

Not sculpting for the material is a understanable concern. However the second part, price, is always going to be hard for a small outfit as there's no way Tre can move enough to off CMoN prices and he doesn't have the money to sink in to get a more resonable goal price. Mierce had the same issue when they tried PVC, people want a CMoN or Monolith deal but unless you're able to move the volume they can you'll be saddled with a lot of debt.

With the way 3d printing prices have been dropping I think it's going to be more reasonable for a company Redbox size to just sell prints to customers over trying to get them made in china. The printers are cheap enough ($800 will get you an amazing resin printer), just need to wait a few years for the resin price to drop as well.

$2.5 per largish Orc doesn't seem like GW pricing to me. Even Bones charges more per mini now. And I find Tre's work to be worth a little more, as there are few sculptors with his talent for anatomy and dynamic posing that conveys movement.

As for how many orcs are on the market...they all look pretty darn different. Mantic's orcs look like a completely different creature from GW's orcs, which look quite distinct from Shieldwolf's demon-faced orcs. Tre's orcs look different from all of them, unique enough to find their own place on a fantasy tabletop.

at $25,000 I would have broken even. the only way I was ever going to actually make a profit on this project was to sell through the first 1000 boxes. And some of that profit would have had to pay for a second restock of packaging and plastic castings and postage from the manufacturer plus any customs import duties involved.


As for sculpting to the material. I have been looking very very closely at PVC over the years and I have very extensively interviewed a LOT of people in the industry about production in plastic. Nothing about the orcs or goblins was going to be a real issue outside of the thickness of weapon shafts. I would not have attempted it otherwise.


As for why this project did not fund...…..there are two themes that keep recurring more often than any others...…. Not cheap enough and no room in the market.


People either already have all the orcs they want or need or these orcs were not cheap enough to justify buying more. I want to add more value per box but I did not have the money to do so without first hitting the funding goal.

I really do not want to step on anyone's toes in the industry so I cannot talk about specific costs, but suffice it to say that plastics production requires significant resources. Resources I CANNOT lay my hands on without significant backing through kickstarter. It isn't me just trying to stuf a mattress full of 100 dollar bils. it is me trying to cover costs and literally pay rent and put food on the table until I can deliver the product and try it again.

I am a small time operation. I want to be a bigger operation producing great games and cool settings and awesome figures affordably priced but I never make enough profit to make that happen. I get close and I DEARLY appreciate the support I do get from the people who like my work. I have continually put the SDSP on hold because I want to do it properly but I never quite have the investment to make that happen. it is not a matter of ability. I can do it. It is a matter of capital.

I totally understand both points. It just is what it is.

In the end I just need to make a better product and pitch it well.



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I want to be sure that people don't misunderstand me here;

I do very much appreciate all of yall support and encouragement. it is what keeps me chipping at the stone.

I also do not grief anyone their choices. if you don't like something you just don't like it. if something is not fairly priced for you then it just is what it is.


I just wanted to explain a bit of the reasoning behind the choices and what forces are at work in the process.

Hopefully the responses were constructive for you. I think right now you fall into an "in-between" category, where you're not quite big enough to launch something like this in the niche you have created.

The current market has a glut of choice, so consumers can be even more selective than we could 10 years ago. For me to "invest" in a Kickstarter, I need a more advantageous return on something I could use, but don't "need".

If you did your human-style figures in multi-pose plastic, or did a Fantasy Japanese line, I'd be in for $400-$500. That doesn't mean anyone else would be, but with all the various subjects I can choose to collect, I get to be picky!


Good luck, Tre! You produce absolutely gorgeous miniatures, and I hope some day your future work is something I will "need" to have.

Oh they were and I do very much appreciate the feedback. I would prefer to know what the problem is than to keep going assuming the problem is something all together different!

Most of the responses basically boil down to 1) Novelty, 2) Price and 3) Material.

While there likely isn't much you can do about price, I would focus on big somewhat novel monsters for a KS to help you learn about PVC production. This lets you improve on the novelty and material axis since PVC really shines on big figures, people are less susceptible to "I already got that" when it comes to new creative monsters

Like, say, the monsters from the SDSP... those would be perfect for big interesting monsters!

Yeah, I was thinking the same, highlord!

hahahah well that may yet be. However I think that I am probably going to just stick with resin and metal.

Just slap a cooperative dungeon crawl around whatever miniatures you want to make. Kickstarter can't get enough of those!

Honestly - as much as I dislike metal - I would be OK with it for the SDSP (resin would be better). As long as it remains a small-scale skirmish (10 minis or so for a faction) would be fine. Especially because RBG metals are always very reasonably priced.

Thanks guys!

Schmapdi, yeh that is looking like what is going to happen with it.

I am working on the first outing for the SDSP right now and planning to put it up on KS in the next week or so. It is going to be humble. Far more so than I would prefer but if I keep waiting to make enough money to do it the way I want to do it I will never get it done.


So this will be a small 2 player starter kind of thing. Basically a small core set of generic barbarians; 3 weapon and shield warriors, 2 brutes with two handed weapons, 1 dual wielder, and 2 javlineers.


The brutes, the dual wielder and the shield warriors will have universally interchangeable heads. The Shield warriors will also have a selection of right hand options and the dual wielder will have a selection of right and left hand options. The brutes will have a few different weapon head options as well.


I will also be producing a few different sprues of head options for these so that people can customize them a bit so make them more thematically cohesive with whichever hero is leading them.


There will be at least two heroes starting out with more planned if funding goes well. These heroes will be of opposed themes. One being a " Paragon " type character and the other being a " Scourge " type character.


There will also be two fairly generic sorcerors. One male one female.


The HEroes are the central figure of the warband and they are aided and augmented by the sorceror / priset / mystic companion and followed by a small band ranging between 6 and 20 warriors of various stripe.

The hero's warband can grow in number or power as the hero devlops through success in battle and the hero can attract greater companions as they develop as well.


getting the game to work well at both higher and lower models count is a trick but I think I have a fairly entertaining system for it.


So basically the kickstarter will offer the most basic core set with two differently themed heroes to lead the core set. Then will expand a couple of new heroes first and then new companion types second.

Sounds good, but be mindful of the various Kickstarter turn offs that I’ve see for launching a new game system:


1. Early bird discount pledges piss me off. Why should I be penalized because I just found out about your game? Eh screw it I’ll just wait for retail. I’ve walked away from many kickstarters for this reason alone. Reaper does it right by putting the earlier backers at the front of the fulfillment line. There is incentive to back early, but it isn’t off putting to those who come later.

2. Too much / not enough discount. Gut the prices too much and nobody will buy at retail and the game will die. You can’t convince them that a box of dudes is worth $40 when Kickstarter backers got them for $10. Go for full MSRP + shipping, and people will just wait for online discounters like miniature mart to sell it at discount and free shipping, and the Kickstarter will fail. IMO a 30% discount is about right. This is hard to get right.

3. Exclusives. Some folks love them, some utterly despise them. I’m in the second camp. No matter how interesting I find something I will never buy it if I find out I cant get this cool guy because he was Kickstarter exclusive.

4. Too many pledge levels. If you need to put in a chart of what each level gets, you have too many. Make it nice and simple, and be clear about what backers are getting. 3 works good, 1. X dollars to spend as you want pick and choose, 2. A whole faction of your choice, 3. Everything. Nice and simple.


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5. Mistakes, misspellings and typos. Just don’t. If you can’t write or proofread find someone who can.

6. Clear images of what we are supposed to get. Not renders or sketches. If you aren’t committed enough to your project to fund a prototype, why should we?

7. Prototype. If you can’t afford a prototype, dude just rethink this whole thing because unexpected costs WILL pop up and you are going to have to eat those, like it or not.


Sorry for typos I’m doing this on my phone. Good luck!!

It's good to hear that we'll get to see the start of the SDSP soon. If I remember correctly the setting/aesthetic for this is going to be similar to Dark Sun, yes?



Something to think about for a future KS in PVC would be doing larger monster sized sculpts for the SDSP. I really like the Jotunn you made for the last Barbarian Hordes KS and I think that size sculpt would do well in PVC given my limited layman's knowledge of PVC. If there are going to be monster size creatures in the SDSP doing a KS for a couple of them for each faction might be a good way to introduce multiple factions without having to do entire warbands for each one. I think people are more likely to pledge for a set of a dozen or so ogre/troll size PVC minis even if there are only a couple sculpts that they really want because even if you don't have a need for the others I think stuff that size can be useful to have on hand for whatever and can be fun to paint and the larger size of the minis creates a better value too.

Pink Horror wrote:
Just slap a cooperative dungeon crawl around whatever miniatures you want to make. Kickstarter can't get enough of those!

That’s exactly what Mierce, of all companies, failed to do though.

Thanks guys.

There is definitely a strong " Dark Sun " influence on the SDSP.

Phobos; Agreed on almost every point. However early birds are really just a way to make sure that peopl eback early and stay in the campaign all the way to the end. Kickstaretr really is a game unto itself. If a campaign does nto fund int he first 24 hours it stands a much lower chance of funding. If the funding goal is a high goal funding early in the camapign is even more vital. I do not like early birds either but they really are a neccessary evil SOMETIMES. I am NOT sayign I will use an Early bird reward.


Discounts..... this is a pretty sticky issue. Kickstarter already takes out a 10% discount so if I set the pledge price at 30% off RRP that means I am actually sellin gthe items at 40% off RRP. Then factor in the encouragment to pledge higher is a deeper discount it gets even trickier.

Setting the pledge price is ALWAYS an agonizing deicisions..... and as the bigger companies drive the cost per mini ever downward and even go as far as to totally shut off distro all together it gets even dicier.


exlcusives..... Yeh I do nt like them eithe rand in my experience they dont actually make that big a difference in pledging. At least it did nto in my last kickstarter.


simple fewer pledge levels. Yes absolutely.

I thought the SDSP was going to have some new / unique types of sculpts - like the 3-armed sculpt you posted for it awhile back? Is that part of what you’re referring to here? It can’t be just northern barbarians...

The mutants. Yes they are a part of the world. I am sort of not going to get my hopes up that this campaign will fund much more than a couple characters and a set of grunts so I want to get as much mileage as I can out of it.

The Mutants are definitely a big part of the world's character though so definitely expect to see at least one ( the Champion ) int he campaign as one of the first stretch goals.

Oh and the barbarians are not northern by any means. They are much more desert or Jungle type barbarians.



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The game does not really have factions though.

The warband leaders are developing Demi-Gods referred to as Chosen. The warriors under their command are called " Minions" and can be drawn from a wide range of character themes. There are only going to be a few troop types or minion classes which will define the basic stat lines of any given minion class type while their broader race type ( barbarian, EMpirial, Mutant, Beastman, Construct, lizardman, etc ) will grant specific special attribute bonuses and penalties and perhaps in some case special abilities.

The Demi God IS the faction of the warband. Hope that makes sense.

Theoretically you could have an Empirial Chosen fighting another Empirial chosen using the same load out of minions.

I'm really excited for the SDSP, I have been for far too long. I love Tre's sculpting ability and I love the idea of a Dark Sun influenced skirmish game.

I'm really sorry about the Orc/Goblin Kickstarter. I'm not sure if it's any help to offer my reasons for not backing, but they are 1) I really don't like PVC as a medium for miniatures, I've yet to find a single PVC mini I have been happy with. 2)I have had a really rough month financially with my wife's medical bills, vet bills, various other expenses and had to deplete a lot of my personal savings, so I'm being really stingy with the non-essentials right now. If either of those issues were not a factor I probably would have pledged (though not much, my hobby budget each month is pretty pitiful while I rebuild my savings).

hey man! Take care of what needs taking care of! I TOTALLY understand that finances are always an up and down kind of thing. I certainly hope that your Wife is Ok and that things improve for you soon!

Rest assured the SDSP is coming sooner rather than later! I just hope it lives up to the hype I have built around it.