Tyranid Wishlisting

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**Amishprn86**

We all know what he means, we need to fix the core problems, points are always part of the problem, but making a unit +1T or +1W, even +1 Sv b.c it counters the meta is not the right way to balance things, the meta is what it is b.c how the core rules are.

If we the players and the makers of the game dont like the meta, then change the core rules not a few units.

**blackmage**

tneva82 wrote:
blackmage wrote:
Tyran wrote:
blackmage wrote:
it kills more than 4-5 warriors 24 rerollable hits d6 extra shots 2 damage apieces then 2 heavy flamers, last but not least 12 melee hits d3 damage each, pretty more than 4-5 warriors. Then pretty hard nut to crack for warriors, i played lately with IK+3 helverins and tabled a tyr in 4 turns.

I'm not sure where you are getting the rerolleable hits, I guess a relic or some trait.

But yes Warriors are not designed to take on enemy vehicles, the large majority of their weapons is for anti-infantry purposes.

And it is true that Tyranid anti-vehicle units and options need some extra work. But no amount of changes is ever going to make Warriors viable against that list.

stratagem which let you re roll any to hit roll, and re roll all in shooting and then again in melee you understand what happens to poor warriors

What strategem that is? Raven one does that for shooting but not in melee so with warden/crusader he would get rerolls for that gatling gun(and rapid fire battlecannon(which sucks) or thermal cannon in case of crusader) but not for stomps. For that he needs something else and I'm pretty sure raven don't have reroll strategem for melee.

Also with your 24 are you counting in both gatling in shooting AND stomp in melee? As assuming everything always works at maximum when that requires say h2h(ripper swarm as a screen btw stops knight from charging warriors) isn't all that honest.

im talking about a renegade knight with double gatking and stratagem Trail of destruction, 2cp and you can re roll every missed hit in that phase

**SHUPPET**

So Disintegrators don't counter Warriors because they are undercosted? Wut? That just makes them counter them even harder. Even costed fairly they would shred Warriors. Regardless, until that point there's no point in counting them as anything but what they are.

**Amishprn86**

SHUPPET wrote:
So Disintegrators don't counter Warriors because they are undercosted? Wut? That just makes them counter them even harder. Even costed fairly they would shred Warriors. Regardless, until that point there's no point in counting them as anything but what they are.

They do counter them, only trolls would say they dont.

**tneva82**

Amishprn86 wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
So Disintegrators don't counter Warriors because they are undercosted? Wut? That just makes them counter them even harder. Even costed fairly they would shred Warriors. Regardless, until that point there's no point in counting them as anything but what they are.

They do counter them, only trolls would say they dont.

But is correct solution then buffing warriors when they would become overpowerful vs non-disintegrators or by nerffing the overpowered disintegrator?

**SHUPPET**

There is a lot of non-Disintegrator stuff in the game that wrecks them and makes them a subpar choice

**Amishprn86**

tneva82 wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
So Disintegrators don't counter Warriors because they are undercosted? Wut? That just makes them counter them even harder. Even costed fairly they would shred Warriors. Regardless, until that point there's no point in counting them as anything but what they are.

They do counter them, only trolls would say they dont.

But is correct solution then buffing warriors when they would become overpowerful vs non-disintegrators or by nerffing the overpowered disintegrator?

Not, the answer isnt fixing a unit to counter another unit, Dissie is going to get a 5-7pt nerf for sure, DE is going to get a full 10-15% points adjustment, so DE will be a bit weaker soon. The other problem is Knights, Custones, etc..

We dont need to fix Warriors b.c of Multi-damage weapons, we need to fix part of the core game

**Gene St. Ealer**

Amishprn86 wrote:
I agree with Spoletta

The problems with the nids codex is there are 8ish units that are overcosted and thats about it, those units do the jobs they are suppose to, just not at the points cost they are currently at.

For me it is;

1) Gargoyles (1pt less)
2) Hive Crone/Harpy (20pts less)
3) Tyrannocyte (25-30pts less)
4) Tervigon (30pts less)
5) Maleceptor (20pts less)
6) Tyrant Guard (20pts each, thats 17pts less per, yes they need to go down that many points)
7) Haruspex (20-30pts) or hits on 2/3+

Small points change i would like would be (10pts ish)
1) Broodlord
2) Red Terror (maybe make this a HQ if kept at same points)
3) Prime Warrior

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I like the add that the Toxicrene is almost perfect IMO, its 157pts. Making it cheaper sadly still wont see much play due to meta. It is basically a melee carnifex with MW's and little shooting, IMO 140pts is about right. And i think the major problem is most Nids units is that the multi damage weapons just hurts them to much.

IMo The Tocixcrene is the perfect example of why you dont see the large MC's in tyranids lists other than Carnifex's and Hive Tyrants, they need to be good enough for the points or cheap enough to spam lots of and dont care if they die b.c you have 2 others.

If you want to see a real Nidzilia lists or at least 5-6 MCs with Hordes that are NOT Tyrants and Fex's then all MC's needs to be, T6 80-90pts base, T7, 90-100pts base, T8 100-120pts base.

At those point levels you will see more and different MC's and then the meta will shift to all multi D weapons and Hordes will be popular again, but at least they will have a chance.

I would rather lower the points a bit to make them more popular in semi-comp and not balance around tournaments.

I simply can't agree with you here, unfortunately. Our MCs (the bad ones, at least), are fundamentally broken. The Haruspex can't kill anything -- it kills about 4 guardsmen on average (PATHETIC), and does about 4 wounds to a knight on average (EVEN MORE PATHETIC). Honestly, it's T8, has a bunch of wounds, and can regenerate wounds. It doesn't need to be any more survivable. But it doesn't *do* anything either. Overall, that's what screws big Nids over (that aren't Flyrants or Fexes). They hit on 4s, and they don't have very many attacks. It's a stupid holdover from 7th (well, 6th) when Cruddace took a buzzsaw to our codex. Unless one (maybe both) of those things happen, the Malceptor and Haruspex and Harpy/Hive Crone will continue to suck.

Like you mentioned, the Toxicrene actually has a pretty nice, synergistic set of rules; when I've gotten lucky with getting one across the board, it's been really effective. It just doesn't work in the meta. I think it needs Shrouding Spores for it's own protection (give it another name so it only affects the Toxicrene).

**SHUPPET**

Yeah this guy nailed it imo ^^

**Amishprn86**

Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:
I agree with Spoletta

The problems with the nids codex is there are 8ish units that are overcosted and thats about it, those units do the jobs they are suppose to, just not at the points cost they are currently at.

For me it is;

1) Gargoyles (1pt less)
2) Hive Crone/Harpy (20pts less)
3) Tyrannocyte (25-30pts less)
4) Tervigon (30pts less)
5) Maleceptor (20pts less)
6) Tyrant Guard (20pts each, thats 17pts less per, yes they need to go down that many points)
7) Haruspex (20-30pts) or hits on 2/3+

Small points change i would like would be (10pts ish)
1) Broodlord
2) Red Terror (maybe make this a HQ if kept at same points)
3) Prime Warrior

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I like the add that the Toxicrene is almost perfect IMO, its 157pts. Making it cheaper sadly still wont see much play due to meta. It is basically a melee carnifex with MW's and little shooting, IMO 140pts is about right. And i think the major problem is most Nids units is that the multi damage weapons just hurts them to much.

IMo The Tocixcrene is the perfect example of why you dont see the large MC's in tyranids lists other than Carnifex's and Hive Tyrants, they need to be good enough for the points or cheap enough to spam lots of and dont care if they die b.c you have 2 others.

If you want to see a real Nidzilia lists or at least 5-6 MCs with Hordes that are NOT Tyrants and Fex's then all MC's needs to be, T6 80-90pts base, T7, 90-100pts base, T8 100-120pts base.

At those point levels you will see more and different MC's and then the meta will shift to all multi D weapons and Hordes will be popular again, but at least they will have a chance.

I would rather lower the points a bit to make them more popular in semi-comp and not balance around tournaments.

I simply can't agree with you here, unfortunately. Our MCs (the bad ones, at least), are fundamentally broken. The Haruspex can't kill anything -- it kills about 4 guardsmen on average (PATHETIC), and does about 4 wounds to a knight on average (EVEN MORE PATHETIC). Honestly, it's T8, has a bunch of wounds, and can regenerate wounds. It doesn't need to be any more survivable. But it doesn't *do* anything either. Overall, that's what screws big Nids over (that aren't Flyrants or Fexes). They hit on 4s, and they don't have very many attacks. It's a stupid holdover from 7th (well, 6th) when Cruddace took a buzzsaw to our codex. Unless one (maybe both) of those things happen, the Malceptor and Haruspex and Harpy/Hive Crone will continue to suck.

Like you mentioned, the Toxicrene actually has a pretty nice, synergistic set of rules; when I've gotten lucky with getting one across the board, it's been really effective. It just doesn't work in the meta. I think it needs Shrouding Spores for it's own protection (give it another name so it only affects the Toxicrene).

I mention that the Huraspex needs a better to hit, hitting on 4+ is just ungodly stupid, it should be 2+/3+ at all times.

**Xenomancers**

Amishprn86 wrote:
Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:
I agree with Spoletta

The problems with the nids codex is there are 8ish units that are overcosted and thats about it, those units do the jobs they are suppose to, just not at the points cost they are currently at.

For me it is;

1) Gargoyles (1pt less)
2) Hive Crone/Harpy (20pts less)
3) Tyrannocyte (25-30pts less)
4) Tervigon (30pts less)
5) Maleceptor (20pts less)
6) Tyrant Guard (20pts each, thats 17pts less per, yes they need to go down that many points)
7) Haruspex (20-30pts) or hits on 2/3+

Small points change i would like would be (10pts ish)
1) Broodlord
2) Red Terror (maybe make this a HQ if kept at same points)
3) Prime Warrior

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I like the add that the Toxicrene is almost perfect IMO, its 157pts. Making it cheaper sadly still wont see much play due to meta. It is basically a melee carnifex with MW's and little shooting, IMO 140pts is about right. And i think the major problem is most Nids units is that the multi damage weapons just hurts them to much.

IMo The Tocixcrene is the perfect example of why you dont see the large MC's in tyranids lists other than Carnifex's and Hive Tyrants, they need to be good enough for the points or cheap enough to spam lots of and dont care if they die b.c you have 2 others.

If you want to see a real Nidzilia lists or at least 5-6 MCs with Hordes that are NOT Tyrants and Fex's then all MC's needs to be, T6 80-90pts base, T7, 90-100pts base, T8 100-120pts base.

At those point levels you will see more and different MC's and then the meta will shift to all multi D weapons and Hordes will be popular again, but at least they will have a chance.

I would rather lower the points a bit to make them more popular in semi-comp and not balance around tournaments.

I simply can't agree with you here, unfortunately. Our MCs (the bad ones, at least), are fundamentally broken. The Haruspex can't kill anything -- it kills about 4 guardsmen on average (PATHETIC), and does about 4 wounds to a knight on average (EVEN MORE PATHETIC). Honestly, it's T8, has a bunch of wounds, and can regenerate wounds. It doesn't need to be any more survivable. But it doesn't *do* anything either. Overall, that's what screws big Nids over (that aren't Flyrants or Fexes). They hit on 4s, and they don't have very many attacks. It's a stupid holdover from 7th (well, 6th) when Cruddace took a buzzsaw to our codex. Unless one (maybe both) of those things happen, the Malceptor and Haruspex and Harpy/Hive Crone will continue to suck.

Like you mentioned, the Toxicrene actually has a pretty nice, synergistic set of rules; when I've gotten lucky with getting one across the board, it's been really effective. It just doesn't work in the meta. I think it needs Shrouding Spores for it's own protection (give it another name so it only affects the Toxicrene).

I mention that the Huraspex needs a better to hit, hitting on 4+ is just ungodly stupid, it should be 2+/3+ at all times.

Yeah - it needs to hit on 3's at a minimum. Plus it's attacks with it's maw should just be a flat 1-3 trade - not this d3 attacks per nonsense. Regardless of it's effectiveness against bigger things I feel like this monster needs to feel like a lawnmower when it touches infantry squads it is really far off that mark at the moment.

Toxicrine is in a lot better shape because it hits on 3's and is cheaper despite being better in every way but still needing some improvements.

**zerosignal**

Frankly, I think Nid MC's should be at Custodes-level when it comes to CQC, these big bugs should literally tear anything they reach to pieces.

This has been a problem with Nids for a long time - the archetypal CQC army is actually just bad at its job...

**Xenomancers**

Well - they can be wicked deadly in CC if they blow up surrounded by custodes

**SHUPPET**

zerosignal wrote:
Frankly, I think Nid MC's should be at Custodes-level when it comes to CQC, these big bugs should literally tear anything they reach to pieces.

This has been a problem with Nids for a long time - the archetypal CQC army is actually just bad at its job...

im not sure if that is our archetype, as long as ive played nids strength has been heavy dice at closer range than other armies through shooting, and use of CC as a control tool or at least a few units that out CC most armies but not as a focus.

i think Orks and Khorne/World Eaters are the pure CC archetype honestly

**Xenomancers**

SHUPPET wrote:
zerosignal wrote:
Frankly, I think Nid MC's should be at Custodes-level when it comes to CQC, these big bugs should literally tear anything they reach to pieces.

This has been a problem with Nids for a long time - the archetypal CQC army is actually just bad at its job...

im not sure if that is our archetype, as long as ive played nids strength has been heavy dice at closer range than other armies through shooting, and use of CC as a control tool or at least a few units that out CC most armies but not as a focus.

i think Orks and Khorne/World Eaters are the pure CC archetype honestly

Well things like acid blood and swallowing things whole seem to be their thing. Acid blood is pretty good but i wish more things could take it. Plus lots of our big bugs do flat 3 mortals when they blow up - if only they blew up on 5's or something.

**SHUPPET**

Tyranids MCs need improved CC on the whole, thats for sure

**Amishprn86**

Yes, they need some help, but they are not meant to be CC beasts, the Swarmlord, Broodlord, and a couple other are, not all of them, many are utility tanks.

**Marmatag**

Amishprn86 wrote:
Yes, they need some help, but they are not meant to be CC beasts, the Swarmlord, Broodlord, and a couple other are, not all of them, many are utility tanks.

You're highlighting some of the problems with our units in 8th edition. The Swarmlord and the Broodlord would be better off with more attacks that had less AP. Because you're going to have these high powered attacks slamming into an invulnerable save. The Broodlord is bad, he folds in seconds as he has a 5++, low toughness, and 6 wounds. Swarmlord is 300 points, for a tiny handful of attacks. Yes he has a 3++ in melee, but he has a 4++ against shooting, and is targetable. Fun fact: this dude gets destroyed very quickly the second he is out of cover.

Tyranid monsters are not viable in melee. This is a fact. Even if they got stomp, they'd have the problem of getting into combat, because they get vaporized on their way there, or find themselves in combat with an invuln save they can't deal with.

Of course this is all a result of the meta so we shouldn't improve Tyranid monsters /sarcasm.

**Spoletta**

Marmatag wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:
Yes, they need some help, but they are not meant to be CC beasts, the Swarmlord, Broodlord, and a couple other are, not all of them, many are utility tanks.

You're highlighting some of the problems with our units in 8th edition. The Swarmlord and the Broodlord would be better off with more attacks that had less AP. Because you're going to have these high powered attacks slamming into an invulnerable save. The Broodlord is bad, he folds in seconds as he has a 5++, low toughness, and 6 wounds. Swarmlord is 300 points, for a tiny handful of attacks. Yes he has a 3++ in melee, but he has a 4++ against shooting, and is targetable. Fun fact: this dude gets destroyed very quickly the second he is out of cover.

Tyranid monsters are not viable in melee. This is a fact. Even if they got stomp, they'd have the problem of getting into combat, because they get vaporized on their way there, or find themselves in combat with an invuln save they can't deal with.

Of course this is all a result of the meta so we shouldn't improve Tyranid monsters /sarcasm.

You can drop the sarcasm man, our big bugs do need some help, it was also in my wishlist if you look at it.

The toxicrene too isn't actually good, because it suffers from a terrificant damage chart. If he actually lost ony two of the three, it woudn't be that bad, but right now it is really punitive.

The haruspex needs a cost decrease. I disagree with the 3+ on it, it's not a beast made for figthting

Our "flyers" need 3 more wounds each. They are huge and the wounds should reflect that.

Trygons need T7 or a cost reduction.

Swarmlord needs a cost decrease.

**Amishprn86**

Toughness doesnt have anything to do with damage output, b.c there is the type "glass hammer" and the Swarmlord is meant to be high AP strong attacks, again you want to change a unit to fight the meta, thats not how it works.

**Tyran**

The Toxicrene needs to have spore cysts, it would be fluffy and would help it reach melee.

I agree the Haruspex needs to be cheaper, also its maw needs to make more attacks.

I would prefer that our flyers got proper flyer rules over more wounds, and the Hive Crone needs better cc so it actually can do something when it charges an enemy flyer.

I agree that the Trygons and Mawlocs need to be T7,

I also agree that the Swarmlord needs to be cheaper. but more importantly, the Tyrant Guard needs to be viable so it can protect the Swarmlord,

The Maleceptor needs its Psychic Overload range drastically increased to 24" so it can actually do something.

The melee options of the Hive Tyrant and the Carnifex need to be improved and/or become cheaper (with the obvious exception of the Rending Claws).

I would like to drop the condition of Weapon Beats ability so it can fire twice even if it moved, so the Acid Spray and Fleshborer Hive get some use.

The Tervigon needs to be cheaper.

And the Tyrannocyte needs to have an improved transport capacity: up to 30 models (3+ Wound infantry takes 3 spaces, mixing units allowed) or up to two Carnifexes (larger monsters are still limited to one).

**SHUPPET**

Mawloc is so garbage. Since he cannot assault the turn he arrives he needs to be able to come down anywhere turn 1 or he will be forever garbage with this set of abilities. Let him be the suddenshock linebreaker unit the lore completely sells him as and its such an easy fix.

**Spoletta**

Tyran wrote:

I would prefer that our flyers got proper flyer rules over more wounds, and the Hive Crone needs better cc so it actually can do something when it charges an enemy flyer.

They can't they need to assault ground stuff.

+1 A 3+ to hit and a some points less could do it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

SHUPPET wrote:
Mawloc is so garbage. Since he cannot assault the turn he arrives he needs to be able to come down anywhere turn 1 or he will be forever garbage with this set of abilities. Let him be the suddenshock linebreaker unit the lore completely sells him as and its such an easy fix.

He is only 100 points for a 12W 3+ beast, can't expect much. To be able to assault in the same turn he would need to be at least 165.

**Tyran**

Letting it assault when it arrives would be better than trying to overturn a general rule, and with its pathetic damage its not as if it is going to kill anything important, but rather be the ultimate distraction unit.

**Marmatag**

Amishprn86 wrote:
Toughness doesnt have anything to do with damage output, b.c there is the type "glass hammer" and the Swarmlord is meant to be high AP strong attacks, again you want to change a unit to fight the meta, thats not how it works.

I will persist my sarcasm until people realize that they are conflating "meta" and "reality." A unit needs to be viable in the greater context of the game. Only you, Spoletta, and Insectum seem to think that internal balance leads to external balance.

**Xenomancers**

I don't think beta deep strike will survive in it's current form. So that will help the mawlock at least.

**Insectum7**

Marmatag wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:
Toughness doesnt have anything to do with damage output, b.c there is the type "glass hammer" and the Swarmlord is meant to be high AP strong attacks, again you want to change a unit to fight the meta, thats not how it works.

I will persist my sarcasm until people realize that they are conflating "meta" and "reality." A unit needs to be viable in the greater context of the game. Only you, Spoletta, and Insectum seem to think that internal balance leads to external balance.

How can they not be connected?

Internal balance gives rise to more potential synergies, more potential synergies lead to a wider array of competetive strategies/options.

Though I'm assuming I'm still on his ignore list. . .

**Spoletta**

Marmatag wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:
Toughness doesnt have anything to do with damage output, b.c there is the type "glass hammer" and the Swarmlord is meant to be high AP strong attacks, again you want to change a unit to fight the meta, thats not how it works.

I will persist my sarcasm until people realize that they are conflating "meta" and "reality." A unit needs to be viable in the greater context of the game. Only you, Spoletta, and Insectum seem to think that internal balance leads to external balance.

I think that you are getting really confused if you don't understand what people mean with meta.

Let me try to clear this term. Meta is the present situation of the game, it describes the current tendencies of the players in terms of faction, units and strategies. It is a transient thing which constantly evolves.

The current meta for example is about 3 months old, it started appearing with the tau codex, but really cemented itself with the DE codex. Before this meta, invuln saves weren't really sought after, because:

a) The meta was Gman assault cannon driven, Invul saves were useless. After that...
b) The meta was smite spam driven. Invul saves were useless. After that...
3) The meta was cultist + obliterators driven. The invul saves weren't really good.

We had the double primarch meta, the full IG meta... so many metas changes in one year of this edition!

Proof of all that is that lascannon spam list at one point were highly competitive, which clearly isn't the present situation.

The current meta is caused by the presence of both, wide spread high AP mid damage high rof weapons and relatively cheap invul saves (custodes and knights mostly).
If you really believe that this is some kind of universal reality of the game that will persist until 9th, then you haven't yet realized how 8th works.
This is only the current meta, and it is changing quickly. There are many chances that the ork codex will alter it drastically for example.

**Marmatag**

Tendencies are driven by cost effectiveness. Your (a), (b), and (c) are extremely narrow views probably based on what you've read when people complained on here about the "top list."

The meta you're referring to was shaken up by codex releases, which updated statlines, prices, etc, and created new content (stratagems, traits, etc). It's not like usefulness of these updated items, units, armies changed magically on their own. Also, some of the changes you mentioned were brought on by nerfs to units - either stats or cost - which was done in response to the "meta" as you'd define it.

In summary: you are taking a horribly narrow view of the game and are also flat out incorrect in your analysis of what a meta is, what the meta was, and what drives the meta to change.

**Spoletta**

Marmatag wrote:
Tendencies are driven by cost effectiveness. Your (a), (b), and (c) are extremely narrow views probably based on what you've read when people complained on here about the "top list."

The meta you're referring to was shaken up by codex releases, which updated statlines, prices, etc, and created new content (stratagems, traits, etc). It's not like usefulness of these updated items, units, armies changed magically on their own. Also, some of the changes you mentioned were brought on by nerfs to units - either stats or cost - which was done in response to the "meta" as you'd define it.

In summary: you are taking a horribly narrow view of the game and are also flat out incorrect in your analysis of what a meta is, what the meta was, and what drives the meta to change.

I don't get your point, you are saying that the meta changes because rules get added and/or changed... which is what i was trying to tell you in the first place, so... thank you for agreeing with me?