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Spoletta wrote:

Sure, one has to consider the meta when list building, but not when thinking about changes to units.

So you are right here arguing against point changes, stat changes, etc, in errtas/chapter approved.

On the other hand...

Spoletta wrote:
If you give 3+ to warriors now, you make an overpowered unit that doesn't perform like one due to the present meta.

So you can't consider the meta when making balance changes, because you'd disrupt the meta, which is what you shouldn't be considering when making changes.

Spoletta wrote:

SHUPPET wrote:Mawloc is so garbage. Since he cannot assault the turn he arrives he needs to be able to come down anywhere turn 1 or he will be forever garbage with this set of abilities. Let him be the suddenshock linebreaker unit the lore completely sells him as and its such an easy fix.

He is only 100 points for a 12W 3+ beast, can't expect much. To be able to assault in the same turn he would need to be at least 165.

I didn't say assault the same turn he came down. This change he wouldn't be able to assault till turn 2, same as other DS reserves, except your opponent get a full turn off point blank shooting to bring him down first.

as it stands he doesn't threaten anything till turn 3 so his bulk is garbage and all over hes a waste of points.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

SHUPPET wrote:Mawloc is so garbage. Since he cannot assault the turn he arrives he needs to be able to come down anywhere turn 1 or he will be forever garbage with this set of abilities. Let him be the suddenshock linebreaker unit the lore completely sells him as and its such an easy fix.

He is only 100 points for a 12W 3+ beast, can't expect much. To be able to assault in the same turn he would need to be at least 165.

I didn't say assault the same turn he came down. This change he wouldn't be able to assault till turn 2, same as other DS reserves, except your opponent get a full turn off point blank shooting to bring him down first.

as it stands he doesn't threaten anything till turn 3 so his bulk is garbage and all over hes a waste of points.

If you cant get 6-7 units within charging range turn 2 to support the Mawloc then you are playing that style of army wrong. Kraken Genes, Hgants, Tyrants, etc.. or Behemoth as well can do it easily.

Mawlocs are great in Kraken/Behemoth armies b.c its another cheap MC on the field turn 2.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

SHUPPET wrote:Mawloc is so garbage. Since he cannot assault the turn he arrives he needs to be able to come down anywhere turn 1 or he will be forever garbage with this set of abilities. Let him be the suddenshock linebreaker unit the lore completely sells him as and its such an easy fix.

He is only 100 points for a 12W 3+ beast, can't expect much. To be able to assault in the same turn he would need to be at least 165.

I didn't say assault the same turn he came down. This change he wouldn't be able to assault till turn 2, same as other DS reserves, except your opponent get a full turn off point blank shooting to bring him down first.

as it stands he doesn't threaten anything till turn 3 so his bulk is garbage and all over hes a waste of points.

If you cant get 6-7 units within charging range turn 2 to support the Mawloc then you are playing that style of army wrong. Kraken Genes, Hgants, Tyrants, etc.. or Behemoth as well can do it easily.

Mawlocs are great in Kraken/Behemoth armies b.c its another cheap MC on the field turn 2.

I have no idea how you read what i wrote and somehow got from it "this guy clearly doesnt know how to get a bunch of Kraken Hormagants and Stealers in range by turn 2!"

Just... wut? Theres no correlation between what you read and what you wrote. You can do all of that and and more, and literally everything I said still remains unchanged.

"as it stands he doesn't threaten anything till turn 3 so his bulk is garbage and all over hes a waste of points."

So doing MW's and being on the other side of the table turn 2 isnt good enough for a 100pt MC?

You dont need it to charge turn 2 do be threatening, thats NOT THE POINT of the Mawloc.

You know that not everything needs to melee to be useful right?

I don't know if that's a serious question, but no, spreading 1-2 wounds between as many different units on turn 2 and then waiting till turn 3 to threaten three and half S6 hits that require a charge, is not worth the price of a Dakkafex, no. Games are often written by the stage an opponent has had 3 turns of doing their thing, even more so if your army is stunted by the fact that you dedicated a portion of your army towards doing nothing till then. If you have a unit doing little to nothing to turn 3, it needs to hit the field and have a real presence compared to something else that would have as you said, already done a turn or even two worth of damage. Mawloc does not have that impact.

 Amishprn86 wrote:


You dont need it to charge turn 2 do be threatening, thats NOT THE POINT of the Mawloc.

You know that not everything needs to melee to be useful right?

This is incredibly low level logic. You don't need to charge turn 2 to be threatening, but this unit in question has very little offensive stats for the points, pays largely for its bulk and its ability to disrupt the backfield, but yet spends the first turn off the field, the second turn coming in and sitting there, before turn 3 at best getting a charge off. There's almost no reason for them to deal with it till last, and everything you said has done more to support this point, not counter it.

You keep forgetting it does MW's, sure only 3-6 but if someone huddles up characters or soft units, that might be enough. Its a disruption unit.

Plus it is Guaranteed to do damage, How many 100pt units do you put on the table just to be blow off and do nothing other than take up realestate and be shot at?

Its a fundamental different unit.

Finally, if they "deal with it last" preventing units from shooting by meleeing turn 3 s a huge deal.

The Mawloc is fine.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
You keep forgetting it does MW's, sure only 3-6 but if someone huddles up characters or soft units, that might be enough. Its a disruption unit.

Plus it is Guaranteed to do damage, How many 100pt units do you put on the table just to be blow off and do nothing other than take up realestate and be shot at?

Its a fundamental different unit.

Finally, if they "deal with it last" preventing units from shooting by meleeing turn 3 s a huge deal.

The Mawloc is fine.

I'm not forgetting the Mortal Wounds, I literally just mentioned them in the post you responded to.

Mawloc does an average of 1 MW per unit in range, and averages 1-2 units in range vs most armies played by someone who doesn't needlessly clump. They dont get to attack the same turn, so this is their entire damage output till turn 3 - aka, less than two Biovores, except with no turn 1 impact, less target selection, no spore mines that they get for missing, and no SMA option - and Biovores are still one of the least played, lowest damage in the dex, so lets stop pretending that this is a selling point.

If left untouched, literally every unit in the dex is tying up shooting units by turn 3 - often sooner and with greater ease and effeciency and damage output. A tarpit that does nothing till turn 3, that cant even surround anything or stop falling back, and does very little damage in CC, is not a good unit, and thats basically a Mawloc in a nutshell. If you're paying for so much bulk and so little damage output, you need to be able to pull resources towards it, and Mawloc is fundamentally incapable of doing so till far too late in the game that these resources have already well and truly had their impact.

Honestly I gotta agree with what's been said about you really missing the point on Tyranid units. The logic just isn't there for the arguments you try make, this one especially. The Mawloc is a very flawed unit right now that tbh I feel like you vastly misunderstand but aren't really interested in hearing out some solid logic on why competitive players feel this way. If this logic hasn't encouraged you to reconsider your perspective I dunno what to say, I think you will be beyond my reach, so continuing to explain it will be pointless, I hope have fun playing the unit you apparently seem satisfied with, but from a perspective of balance he's simply not there.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
You keep forgetting it does MW's, sure only 3-6 but if someone huddles up characters or soft units, that might be enough. Its a disruption unit.

Plus it is Guaranteed to do damage, How many 100pt units do you put on the table just to be blow off and do nothing other than take up realestate and be shot at?

Its a fundamental different unit.

Finally, if they "deal with it last" preventing units from shooting by meleeing turn 3 s a huge deal.

The Mawloc is fine.

I'm not forgetting the Mortal Wounds, I literally just mentioned them in the post you responded to.

Mawloc does an average of 1 MW per unit in range, and averages 1-2 units in range vs most armies played by someone who doesn't needlessly clump. They dont get to attack the same turn, so this is their entire damage output till turn 3 - aka, less than two Biovores, except with no turn 1 impact, less target selection, no spore mines that they get for missing, and no SMA option - and Biovores are still one of the least played, lowest damage in the dex, so lets stop pretending that this is a selling point.

If left untouched, literally every unit in the dex is tying up shooting units by turn 3 - often sooner and with greater ease and effeciency and damage output. A tarpit that does nothing till turn 3, that cant even surround anything or stop falling back, and does very little damage in CC, is not a good unit, and thats basically a Mawloc in a nutshell. If you're paying for so much bulk and so little damage output, you need to be able to pull resources towards it, and Mawloc is fundamentally incapable of doing so till far too late in the game that these resources have already well and truly had their impact.

Honestly I gotta agree with what's been said about you really missing the point on Tyranid units. The logic just isn't there for the arguments you try make, this one especially. The Mawloc is a very flawed unit right now that tbh I feel like you vastly misunderstand but aren't really interested in hearing out some solid logic on why competitive players feel this way. If this logic hasn't encouraged you to reconsider your perspective I dunno what to say, I think you will be beyond my reach, so continuing to explain it will be pointless, I hope have fun playing the unit you apparently seem satisfied with, but from a perspective of balance he's simply not there.

No i didnt miss the point, you did.

Mawlocs are NOT Melee beast, they are NOT made to be DSing into melee, they are made to move right next to a unit and deal damage instantly, that is their purpose and design, we have Trygons and Trygon Primes that DS and charge.
Its YOUR opinion that Mawlocs should be changed, It has a design and its a unique design, it might need a damage boost, but your understanding of the unit and its purpose is flawed.

Im saying the Mawloc does what its suppose to do, Comes in protected turn 1 via DSing, disrupts the backfield and deals damage at the same time.

If you want to talk about modifying the Mawloc then make a Logically change idea for example: Pick a unit when the Mawlocs comes from the Deep, Roll 1D6 for each model in that unit, or 3D6 for each MC/Vehicle in the unit (up to 10 dice), on a roll of 3+ that unit takes a MW, after you roll the dice place the Mawloc within 2" of the unit, if the unit has been destroyed place the Mawloc where the unit was.

But honestly i'd rather we focus on the units that are hideous and no one uses like the Hive Crone, Huraspex, Tyrannocyte, etc...

logic is truly bad but K lets just keep it moving

 Marmatag wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Sure, one has to consider the meta when list building, but not when thinking about changes to units.

So you are right here arguing against point changes, stat changes, etc, in errtas/chapter approved.

On the other hand...

Spoletta wrote:
If you give 3+ to warriors now, you make an overpowered unit that doesn't perform like one due to the present meta.

So you can't consider the meta when making balance changes, because you'd disrupt the meta, which is what you shouldn't be considering when making changes.

You can try to find logical fallacies in what i say as much as i want, but you will find none. Everyone has understood what i mean, except you, so maybe reread again the things that i said, but i will give you the short version again.

Warriors are fine.
Warriors are currently handicapped by the meta, which will change.
If you modify warriors now to chase this unfavorable meta, you create overpowered models, which will become a problem for the game as soon as this meta changes.

You are free to disagree with it, but that's my position on this matter.
Big bugs are another issue, they do not perform well even on paper in favorable conditions, so they need to have something changed.

Spoletta wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Sure, one has to consider the meta when list building, but not when thinking about changes to units.

So you are right here arguing against point changes, stat changes, etc, in errtas/chapter approved.

On the other hand...

Spoletta wrote:
If you give 3+ to warriors now, you make an overpowered unit that doesn't perform like one due to the present meta.

So you can't consider the meta when making balance changes, because you'd disrupt the meta, which is what you shouldn't be considering when making changes.

You can try to find logical fallacies in what i say as much as i want, but you will find none. Everyone has understood what i mean, except you, so maybe reread again the things that i said, but i will give you the short version again.

Warriors are fine.
Warriors are currently handicapped by the meta, which will change.
If you modify warriors now to chase this unfavorable meta, you create overpowered models, which will become a problem for the game as soon as this meta changes.

You are free to disagree with it, but that's my position on this matter.
Big bugs are another issue, they do not perform well even on paper in favorable conditions, so they need to have something changed.

Of course I disagree because:

Multi-damage weapons aren't a factor of the meta - they're a factor in the game. They exist, period, and will exist until a future edition changes it. WHICH multi-damage weapons will be irrelevant. Will it be reapers? Will it be necron destroyers? Will it be dissies? Will it be grav? Will it be basilisks? Will it be manticores? Will it be plasma? No matter HOW the meta shifts, multi-damage weapons will be a part of it. You are implying that multi-damage weapons and hard-counters to warriors are a temporary thing, but that assumes that the set of things threatening them is limited to what the meta favors. This is patently false. At this point you've stopped reading or understanding, so i'll just say: Winged Seagulls throw Wrenches at Laserbeam Firing Transformers. (WSWLFT).

What you are saying now is equivalent to:

"Multidamage weapons exist so multiwounded models are not available period." which as we all know, it's false.

I'm not saying that what is giving problems to warriors now is the existance of multidamage weapons, that is something that you are implying and i disagree with it.

I'm saying that right now the quality and the too low cost of some of those is generating an overabundance of them on the tables. This is not a general rule of the game, it is something that is true at the moment and so will likely change.

A unit could be crap because it is a 400 point model that is immediately removed from the game if a model with a flamer is within 24" of it, and yet right now it would be invincible. It's not a matter of how many counters are there, but how common those counters are.

Many of the weapons that right now trouble warriors in high end tables, are on the line for a nerfbeating, dissie, knights and dark reapers in particular. Every nerf done to these kind of weapons is an indirect buff to warriors.

Spoletta wrote:
What you are saying now is equivalent to:

"Multidamage weapons exist so multiwounded models are not available period." which as we all know, it's false.

I'm not saying that what is giving problems to warriors now is the existance of multidamage weapons, that is something that you are implying and i disagree with it.

I'm saying that right now the quality and the too low cost of some of those is generating an overabundance of them on the tables. This is not a general rule of the game, it is something that is true at the moment and so will likely change.

A unit could be crap because it is a 400 point model that is immediately removed from the game if a model with a flamer is within 24" of it, and yet right now it would be invincible. It's not a matter of how many counters are there, but how common those counters are.

Many of the weapons that right now trouble warriors in high end tables, are on the line for a nerfbeating, dissie, knights and dark reapers in particular. Every nerf done to these kind of weapons is an indirect buff to warriors.

It's not what i'm saying. Dude you are off the rails.

4+, T4, with 3 wounds, is not elite, nor durable, in 40k 8th edition.

You're starting to get there, in your "common counters" argument. And my point is, those counters transcend the meta, because there are a ton of units - both viable in the meta, and not viable in the meta - that annihilate warriors with their current statline.

If you actually honestly look at what is on top tables in majors, GTs, etc, you'd see that it's actually quite varied. Yeah, Knights, and Custodes, are top dog, no question, but the following armies are also represented:

Imperial Guard
Death Guard
Thousand Sons
Eldar
Dark Eldar
Eldar Soup
Tau
Space Marines (Ultramarine Bobby G party)
Blood Angel + Guard Soup
Dark Angels

I mean even Necrons placed well at a GT recently. All of these armies have baked in hard counters to Warriors. This is an incredibly diverse meta, one of the most diverse I've ever seen in 40k. And all of these armies have very strong counters to Tyranids, warriors notwithstanding.

Sure thing they do have counters, and that's a good thing!

Question is, how many of those do get deployed in such amounts that they invalidate warriors?

Dark Reapers and dissies right now are just that, but for example ultra marines do not have weapons that are particularly effective against them. Sure they will go down to moderate amounts of fire, but they are a cheap unit for 3 wounds, they don't reward many points to the enemy, except against D3 weapons.

IG for example in the common lists do not present anything that scares warriors, Leman Russ battle cannons are the worst that they can bring against them, and it's not a good target for those. They are a decent target for basilisks, but not particularly so.

Thousand sons don't have anythings that scares them, same with Death Guards. Same with necrons.

Custodes have to commit in close combat, surely they won't do much with shooting. In CC every wound lost on a Vertus costs as much as a warrior.

Everything kills warriors, but not many weapons actually do that in an efficient way (ie with at least 1/3 return).

The amount of "Hard counters" to warriors, aren't many once you math it.

Dissies are a problem because you face 12 of those cannons per match and have close to 1/2 return. Dark reapers too. Tau ionheads are decent, but burstides for example are not a counter to warriors.


And yes, the current competitive scene is the best i have memory of. For all the hate that 8th receives, one cannot argue about its accomplishments in terms of balance.