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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Shoulda woulda coulda, you have no idea what would happen. Magnus' actions showed he'd never stop with the sorcery. He wasn't forced into turning to chaos at all, he chose to turn traitor.

Magnus was faced with a choice:

-Turn to chaos

OR

-Die and ignominious death as a traitor
-Everyone you have ever known and loved is slaughtered
-Your planet is bombarded into glass
-The people who did this to you get celebrated as heroes, despite them being the ones crossing the line and disobeying orders

I really see why he turned. If he was going to be a traitor anyway, he might as well be a living one.

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Shoulda woulda coulda, you have no idea what would happen. Magnus' actions showed he'd never stop with the sorcery. He wasn't forced into turning to chaos at all, he chose to turn traitor.

Magnus was faced with a choice:

-Turn to chaos

OR

-Die and ignominious death as a traitor
-Everyone you have ever known and loved is slaughtered
-Your planet is bombarded into glass
-The people who did this to you get celebrated as heroes, despite them being the ones crossing the line and disobeying orders

I really see why he turned. If he was going to be a traitor anyway, he might as well be a living one.

And he should have took the later, look at him now.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
And he should have took the later, look at him now.

Wow, you are either a hardcore SW fanboy or you really hate the 1K sons for some reason.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Horus was not a Colonel, he had full athourity when it came to the great crusade.

Horus was still second in command to the Emperor, and the Emperor gave Russ an order to arrest Magnus, not kill him.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
...complete conjecture, no lore to back that up at all.

What is complete conjecture? The fact that Primarchs aren't just allowed to glass Imperial planets whenever they want? Lol ask Curze and Perturabo about that, at least they had the excuse their planets were in open rebellion.

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Shoulda woulda coulda, you have no idea what would happen. Magnus' actions showed he'd never stop with the sorcery. He wasn't forced into turning to chaos at all, he chose to turn traitor.

Magnus was faced with a choice:

-Turn to chaos

OR

-Die and ignominious death as a traitor
-Everyone you have ever known and loved is slaughtered
-Your planet is bombarded into glass
-The people who did this to you get celebrated as heroes, despite them being the ones crossing the line and disobeying orders

I really see why he turned. If he was going to be a traitor anyway, he might as well be a living one.

He was very happy with option 2 otherwise he wouldn't have done so much to allow the Wolves to attack Prospero easily. If Magnus wanted to avoid the Burning of Prospero he could have done a fair bit to avoid it.

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
And he should have took the later, look at him now.

Wow, you are either a hardcore SW fanboy or you really hate the 1K sons for some reason.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Horus was not a Colonel, he had full athourity when it came to the great crusade.

Horus was still second in command to the Emperor, and the Emperor gave Russ an order to arrest Magnus, not kill him.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
...complete conjecture, no lore to back that up at all.

What is complete conjecture? The fact that Primarchs aren't just allowed to glass Imperial planets whenever they want? Lol ask Curze and Perturabo about that, at least they had the excuse their planets were in open rebellion.

I don't hate the thousand sons, I actually like them, I love Ahriman as a character, apart from when he became slave to Gzrel, allowing himself to be humiliated etc. I hate Magnus, he has no redeemable characteristics, he was a big arrogant child. You are the biased one, to say Russ is at fault is just fantasy.

"Horus was still second in command to the Emperor, and the Emperor gave Russ an order to arrest Magnus, not kill him." completely irrelevant.

Actually Horus sanctions exterminatus' lol

 Irbis wrote:

Yeah, let's ignore the fact the Emperor ordered Magnus captured, not killed, the fact Malcador outright stated DON'T DO ANYTHING RASH YOU MORON, the fact that Valdor, a man arguably as important as Horus was screaming about censuring, not carpet bombing the whole time, and the fact head Wolfwolf went with orders of the at best fourth important guy ignoring the orders of the top three.

That is simply incorrect. Horus speaks with the Emperor's authority, neither Malcador or Valdor can countermand him.

"I name you Warmaster and from this day forth all of my armies and generals shall take orders from you as if the words came from mine own mouth."

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Shoulda woulda coulda, you have no idea what would happen. Magnus' actions showed he'd never stop with the sorcery. He wasn't forced into turning to chaos at all, he chose to turn traitor.

Magnus was faced with a choice:

-Turn to chaos

OR

-Die and ignominious death as a traitor
-Everyone you have ever known and loved is slaughtered
-Your planet is bombarded into glass
-The people who did this to you get celebrated as heroes, despite them being the ones crossing the line and disobeying orders

I really see why he turned. If he was going to be a traitor anyway, he might as well be a living one.

Option 3

He tells his people what he had done, warns them of the inherent dangers of the sorcery they are undertaking, what the familiars really are and surrenders himself and his Legion to the oncoming fleet as they approach.

What he actually does is condemn all to death on his planet without them knowing and watches them all burn even when they are sceaming for him to help.

The destruciton of Prospero is all his fault.

w1zard wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Russ received an order from a superior officer - the 2nd in command of the entire Imperium and most trusted person besides the Emperor himself.
There was precedent for the order. It is implied the Emperor used the Wolves to destroy one or both of the II and XI. If this had not been the case it might seem mad but if this was just another job, there would be no reason to argue.
Magnus deliberately defied the Emperor's explicit order to his face. The Emperor directly ordered the detainment of Magnus. Magnus and his legion were known to be users of dangerous sorceries.

Combined, there are no reasons for Russ to doubt the sincerity of the order and that it came from the Emperor himself. As far as he knew, he was just taking care of a dangerous traitor. There's no argument to be made.

If a General orders me to do something, and then a Colonel comes along and tells me to do something in contradiction of the General's orders (even if he says the orders come from the General) I sure as hell am getting clarification before I do anything.

Russ didn't think too hard about the order change because deep down he always wanted to fight Magnus, and thought the Emperor was going too soft on him. Also, and order to massacre the entire population of a loyal Imperial planet is an illegal order, and something that Russ should have turned down (See Perturabo's order to decimate his homeworld and how he was universally condemned). The fact that Russ either didn't turn down Horus' order to slaughter the entire population, or that he did it on his own initiative makes him complicit in my eyes.

Horus was not a Colonel, he was Warmaster, with complete authority. The Emperor's favourite, the Emperor's right-hand man, the most charismatic and trustworthy being in the Imperium. He would never contradict the Emperor. He would never betray the Emperor. The very idea of Horus turning from the Emperor was unfathomable. To question Horus was to question the Emperor. Horus' orders were the Emperor's orders.

As said before, there was already precedent, with several instances include Prospero Burns suggesting that the Emperor had had him do similar things before. There was absolutely no reason to question the order.

Whether he wanted to fight or not makes no difference, he followed orders from the highest power there is.

 Deadshot wrote:

w1zard wrote:

If a General orders me to do something, and then a Colonel comes along and tells me to do something in contradiction of the General's orders (even if he says the orders come from the General) I sure as hell am getting clarification before I do anything.

Russ didn't think too hard about the order change because deep down he always wanted to fight Magnus, and thought the Emperor was going too soft on him. Also, and order to massacre the entire population of a loyal Imperial planet is an illegal order, and something that Russ should have turned down (See Perturabo's order to decimate his homeworld and how he was universally condemned). The fact that Russ either didn't turn down Horus' order to slaughter the entire population, or that he did it on his own initiative makes him complicit in my eyes.

Horus was not a Colonel, he was Warmaster, with complete authority. The Emperor's favourite, the Emperor's right-hand man, the most charismatic and trustworthy being in the Imperium. He would never contradict the Emperor. He would never betray the Emperor. The very idea of Horus turning from the Emperor was unfathomable. To question Horus was to question the Emperor. Horus' orders were the Emperor's orders.

As said before, there was already precedent, with several instances include Prospero Burns suggesting that the Emperor had had him do similar things before. There was absolutely no reason to question the order.

Whether he wanted to fight or not makes no difference, he followed orders from the highest power there is.

Quite - the Emperor tells him to do something that has never (as far as we know) been done before: arresting a primarch. Then Horus (who speaks with the emperor's authority) amends that to less arrest and more slaughter which Russ has been told to do twice before.

Also consider what the stated penalty for sorcery was at Nikea:

"Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light."

From Russ's point of view the first order was the weird one, not Horus's addendum.

Really, the Emperor set the stage for this happening by threatening a punishment that he wasn't prepared to carry out (bad parenting 101).

w1zard wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
And he should have took the later, look at him now.

Wow, you are either a hardcore SW fanboy or you really hate the 1K sons for some reason.

Option C - His fashion sense rejects Nipple Horns of Ludicrous Size (and frowns upon more sensible nipple horns...)

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

w1zard wrote:

If a General orders me to do something, and then a Colonel comes along and tells me to do something in contradiction of the General's orders (even if he says the orders come from the General) I sure as hell am getting clarification before I do anything.

Russ didn't think too hard about the order change because deep down he always wanted to fight Magnus, and thought the Emperor was going too soft on him. Also, and order to massacre the entire population of a loyal Imperial planet is an illegal order, and something that Russ should have turned down (See Perturabo's order to decimate his homeworld and how he was universally condemned). The fact that Russ either didn't turn down Horus' order to slaughter the entire population, or that he did it on his own initiative makes him complicit in my eyes.

Horus was not a Colonel, he was Warmaster, with complete authority. The Emperor's favourite, the Emperor's right-hand man, the most charismatic and trustworthy being in the Imperium. He would never contradict the Emperor. He would never betray the Emperor. The very idea of Horus turning from the Emperor was unfathomable. To question Horus was to question the Emperor. Horus' orders were the Emperor's orders.

As said before, there was already precedent, with several instances include Prospero Burns suggesting that the Emperor had had him do similar things before. There was absolutely no reason to question the order.

Whether he wanted to fight or not makes no difference, he followed orders from the highest power there is.

Quite - the Emperor tells him to do something that has never (as far as we know) been done before: arresting a primarch. Then Horus (who speaks with the emperor's authority) amends that to less arrest and more slaughter which Russ has been told to do twice before.

Also consider what the stated penalty for sorcery was at Nikea:

"Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light."

From Russ's point of view the first order was the weird one, not Horus's addendum.

Really, the Emperor set the stage for this happening by threatening a punishment that he wasn't prepared to carry out (bad parenting 101).

I will make one small correction in that Konrad Curze had been arrested and was on his way to Terra to face trial at the time of the Heresy outbreak. However, apart from that, pretty much nailed it.

The Thousand Sons, more than any other legion have furthered the downfall of humanity. Both in the past and present. The current galactic severance is a direct result of the 1ksons machinations and warp rituals. They have also destroyed much of the Fenris system and left the SW's in tatters.
Magnus and his ilk are not tragic victims. Magnus directly disobeyed the censur orders of Nikea.

But also, the space wolves are not to be free from blame. By falling to the warmasters manipulations he doomed the future of humanity. Russ was the hammer that forged Magnus on the anvil of prospero. Russ, more than any other directly or indirectly (besides Magnus) doomed humanity by not questioning orders or taking more than a brief moment to find out why his orders of surrender were not being answered.

In the end, I do not think it is possible to do what the OP has asked. Both Magnus and Russ are twerps who doomed untold TRILLIONS of lives.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Option 3

He tells his people what he had done, warns them of the inherent dangers of the sorcery they are undertaking, what the familiars really are and surrenders himself and his Legion to the oncoming fleet as they approach.

What he actually does is condemn all to death on his planet without them knowing and watches them all burn even when they are sceaming for him to help.

The destruciton of Prospero is all his fault.

Exactly.

Magnus could have prepared Prospero for war and when down fighting like a true warrior.
Magnus could have assembled his legion at a parade ground and voxxed his and their surrender to Leman Russ the moment the Censure Fleet left the Warp.

But instead Magnus picked the worst option: botched suicide by Space Wolves.

And some people seem to forget just how the Great Crusade was waged. Exterminatus of populations was not an unprecedented event. Aliens, those too alien influenced, those to religious, and those unwilling to accept the Imperial Truth received various forms of Exterminatus. Given this, the idea of Exterminatus on Prospero just isn't that shocking an action for a Primarch, who destroyed a Legion or two (and possibility the Primarchs to go with them), who was told:

"By the Word and the Will of the Master of Mankind, Imperatoris, Terra Regnum, It is hereby decreed that Magnus, Primarch of the XV Legiones Astartes, be bought forth in censure and bound by law to stand before the Throne Imperial of Terra, there to answer for his actions and those of his gene-sons. To this end is Leman Russ, Primarch of the VI1" legiones Astartes, so charged upon the deliverance of his ·brother, by any and all means he may find needful, without limit in law, sanction or imposition of attainder, unto the limitless void and the last day. So it is written, so it shall be." Page 16 Inferno

Simply put, the Emperor said, "I don't care how you do it or what you destroy doing it, bring me Magnus."

 alextroy wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Option 3

He tells his people what he had done, warns them of the inherent dangers of the sorcery they are undertaking, what the familiars really are and surrenders himself and his Legion to the oncoming fleet as they approach.

What he actually does is condemn all to death on his planet without them knowing and watches them all burn even when they are sceaming for him to help.

The destruciton of Prospero is all his fault.

Exactly.

Magnus could have prepared Prospero for war and when down fighting like a true warrior.
Magnus could have assembled his legion at a parade ground and voxxed his and their surrender to Leman Russ the moment the Censure Fleet left the Warp.

But instead Magnus picked the worst option: botched suicide by Space Wolves.

And some people seem to forget just how the Great Crusade was waged. Exterminatus of populations was not an unprecedented event. Aliens, those too alien influenced, those to religious, and those unwilling to accept the Imperial Truth received various forms of Exterminatus. Given this, the idea of Exterminatus on Prospero just isn't that shocking an action for a Primarch, who destroyed a Legion or two (and possibility the Primarchs to go with them), who was told:

"By the Word and the Will of the Master of Mankind, Imperatoris, Terra Regnum, It is hereby decreed that Magnus, Primarch of the XV Legiones Astartes, be bought forth in censure and bound by law to stand before the Throne Imperial of Terra, there to answer for his actions and those of his gene-sons. To this end is Leman Russ, Primarch of the VI1" legiones Astartes, so charged upon the deliverance of his ·brother, by any and all means he may find needful, without limit in law, sanction or imposition of attainder, unto the limitless void and the last day. So it is written, so it shall be." Page 16 Inferno

Simply put, the Emperor said, "I don't care how you do it or what you destroy doing it, bring me Magnus."

Its not all the fault of Magnus. But he is to blame for a good amount. Russ was a unthinking attack dog to quick to fight and serious problem thinking for himself. Horus was the manipulator of the situation and thus is also guilty. The Emp was honestly stupid to the point of retardation by not actually telling Magnus what his plan was and why he should stop fricking around. And its Tzeentch who wins this battle. Everyone is to blame. Everyone did something wrong.

I actually consider Russ the least wrong in this situation. He's the only one that did what he was told, which for better or worse is the basis of a stable military. Applying our limit to what is acceptable orders to follow to the 40k universe is pointless. Russ was the go to guy when Astartes vs Astartes was needed, he knew what he was and what might be expected. Magnus's Hubris and the Emperor's be the worst possible father at all times to nearly all my kids are what caused this.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I actually consider Russ the least wrong in this situation. He's the only one that did what he was told, which for better or worse is the basis of a stable military. Applying our limit to what is acceptable orders to follow to the 40k universe is pointless. Russ was the go to guy when Astartes vs Astartes was needed, he knew what he was and what might be expected. Magnus's Hubris and the Emperor's be the worst possible father at all times to nearly all my kids are what caused this.

Personal morality aside, factually he was the catalyst for the current galactic situation by attacking the sons. So is Magnus. So is Horus. So is the big E. And on and on. My point being is that they are all to blame in near equal parts. There were points in each persons fate in which doing something a bit differently would have avoided the incident. 10k years later and Tzeentch is still winning. I wonder is he gets tired of all the winning. Russ is just as much to blame (and more imho) as the Big E or Magnus. When someone unleashes a dog to bite someone both that person AND his dog are guilty of assault in the eyes of current day law (in most western nations) and logic. Russ, for better or worse, is the one who actually bit.

Furthermore. If Russ was just following orders then why did he disobey orders by offering Magnus a option to surrender? This plot point tells us that Russ is something more than a dog of war and has some level of individual thought. He was capable of questioning the change of orders from Horus. This fact shows this to be true. But he did not. In my opinion he went to Prospero looking for a fight, its because that's what he does best. He made a token gesture of mercy and when that was mysteriously not answered he went full bore. But this is just my interpretation of events and I have no backing for it.

Either way, to make a long story short. Russ is just as much as fault as any and all of the major players. He could have investigated a sudden change of orders given to him DIRECTLY by his father. Horus being the warmaster only carries so much weight. And if Russ had investigated and uncovered Horus maybe the Heresy would have played out better for the empire. More than anything, the heresy is a story of gigantic egos making very very very stupid mistakes. Its funny that you blame Magnus for his hubris when every single character also suffered from the same. Magnus was not a snowflake in arrogance. Its a quality shared by nearly all of his brothers and heavily by his father.

Table wrote:
Horus being the warmaster only carries so much weight. And if Russ had investigated and uncovered Horus maybe the Heresy would have played out better for the empire.

As has been mentioned previously, Warmaster carried ALL the weight. As quoted by someone else

"I name you Warmaster and from this day forth all of my armies and generals shall take orders from you as if the words came from mine own mouth."


The Emperor's direct order to the Primarch was to treat Horus' orders as another direct order from the Emperor. To question Horus was to question the Emperor. Furthermore, there was literally no reason to contemplate that Horus had ulterior motives or was lying - he was literally the Emperor's favourite child and first-found son. Don't forget, Russ was the next one found after Horus and so was likely pretty high in popularity. But after Ullanor, for all intents and purposes, Horus was the Emperor in terms of Military rank. Horus is Churchill during World War 2. And it doesn't matter what Field Marshall or High Admiral tells you - if Churchill gives you a direct order. And if Churchill called you on the radio and said

"King George gave you an order to capture Hitler and bring him back to face trial. He's changed his mind and ask that I instruct you to kill Hitler, by any means necessary, bring his head on a spike, and turn Berlin into a mass grave..."

Are you going to question this? Hell no.

 Deadshot wrote:

Table wrote:
Horus being the warmaster only carries so much weight. And if Russ had investigated and uncovered Horus maybe the Heresy would have played out better for the empire.

As has been mentioned previously, Warmaster carried ALL the weight. As quoted by someone else

"I name you Warmaster and from this day forth all of my armies and generals shall take orders from you as if the words came from mine own mouth."


The Emperor's direct order to the Primarch was to treat Horus' orders as another direct order from the Emperor. To question Horus was to question the Emperor. Furthermore, there was literally no reason to contemplate that Horus had ulterior motives or was lying - he was literally the Emperor's favourite child and first-found son. Don't forget, Russ was the next one found after Horus and so was likely pretty high in popularity. But after Ullanor, for all intents and purposes, Horus was the Emperor in terms of Military rank. Horus is Churchill during World War 2. And it doesn't matter what Field Marshall or High Admiral tells you - if Churchill gives you a direct order. And if Churchill called you on the radio and said

"King George gave you an order to capture Hitler and bring him back to face trial. He's changed his mind and ask that I instruct you to kill Hitler, by any means necessary, bring his head on a spike, and turn Berlin into a mass grave..."

Are you going to question this? Hell no.

using churchill etc is a poor analogy IMHO. A better one is that Horus was made "supreme commander of the Imperium's military" that meant, technicly, the primarchs answered to him, and yeah his orders came from the emperor. Someone said if a colonel ordered you to do something but a general ahd already given you other orders you'd question it, thing is... in the real military the general wouldn't directly issue you the orders, there are chains of command.

Best example I can think of from history is Napoleon. Starting off as a general working for the Republic, and ending up rebelling against them and assuming the title Emperor of France.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Table wrote:
Horus being the warmaster only carries so much weight. And if Russ had investigated and uncovered Horus maybe the Heresy would have played out better for the empire.

As has been mentioned previously, Warmaster carried ALL the weight. As quoted by someone else

"I name you Warmaster and from this day forth all of my armies and generals shall take orders from you as if the words came from mine own mouth."


The Emperor's direct order to the Primarch was to treat Horus' orders as another direct order from the Emperor. To question Horus was to question the Emperor. Furthermore, there was literally no reason to contemplate that Horus had ulterior motives or was lying - he was literally the Emperor's favourite child and first-found son. Don't forget, Russ was the next one found after Horus and so was likely pretty high in popularity. But after Ullanor, for all intents and purposes, Horus was the Emperor in terms of Military rank. Horus is Churchill during World War 2. And it doesn't matter what Field Marshall or High Admiral tells you - if Churchill gives you a direct order. And if Churchill called you on the radio and said

"King George gave you an order to capture Hitler and bring him back to face trial. He's changed his mind and ask that I instruct you to kill Hitler, by any means necessary, bring his head on a spike, and turn Berlin into a mass grave..."

Are you going to question this? Hell no.

using churchill etc is a poor analogy IMHO. A better one is that Horus was made "supreme commander of the Imperium's military" that meant, technicly, the primarchs answered to him, and yeah his orders came from the emperor. Someone said if a colonel ordered you to do something but a general ahd already given you other orders you'd question it, thing is... in the real military the general wouldn't directly issue you the orders, there are chains of command.

But again, Horus isn't a colonel and the Emperor isn't a General. The Emperor is Caesar, lord, leader and commander, and Horus is his right-hand man. The military structure isn't the same as the Primarchs are the Generals, and the Emperor is well, the Emperor. His authority goes far beyond that of simple military command. His rule goes back to the day where Kings were both rulers and military commanders. His word is absolute. And he said to treat Horus' orders as his own. There's no ambiguity there.

In terms of chain of command - again, this is not normal military structure or normally contradicting commands. This is the entire nations's 2IC saying that the 1IC (hence my Churchill vs King George comparison) had slightly changed their mind. IF The Emperor, for example, was set to reward Magnus and Horus suddenly changed it to a kill-order, that would be very different situation. But it was simply a capture order changed to a "dead or alive" order in line with precedent. Plus, as quoted, the Emperor said in not so many words "No holds barred do whatever it takes I don't care."

I'd also note given who the space wolves are the emperor knew damn well what would happen. if he wanted Magnus to be politely collected he'd have sent one of the diplomat legions, not the Legion that proudly called themselves his "executioners"

Plus no one complains about Russ not questioning the order to sanction Angron. In that case, he was never ordered to kill Angron (not that he could lol), so he didn't try to kill him, but both legions still went to war. In the case of Magnus he was ordered to kill him. Its what he was made to do, he did it once before and rumours say he did it to both the lost legions. Its a bit like Dorn getting told to bolster the Imperial palace, saying 'he should have question doing that, as it was an order that had never before been contemplated should that mean that it was completely alien to him.'

Never claimed that Magnus was innocent. Him breaking the edict at Nikaea and his general disregard for messing about with sorcery did a LOT of harm, arguably even dooming humanity by destroying their last best hope against chaos.

All I'm saying is that Russ and the Wolves were not the good guys on Prospero. Russ disobeyed a direct order from the emperor because it was countermanded by someone of lesser authority (yes I'm fully aware that Horus "speaks with the authority of the emperor" but the emperor told Russ to do something straight out of his own mouth). Russ just happened to agree with the new orders more and so he didn't think too hard about it. Horus tricked Russ, but he used Russ' hatred of Magnus to ensure his deception was successful. That was a failing on RUSS' part.

I also find it doubtful that Horus told Russ to wipe out the entire planet, as that should have sent alarm bells ringing in Russ' head. Add that to the fact that the burning of the libraries was most likely on Russ' individual initiative paints the picture of a man just itching for an excuse to visit bloodshed and destruction on his rivals.

If we are going to use real life military examples as some have started to... If you are ordered by a superior officer to slaughter civilians you have a duty to disobey that order. If you follow it and use the excuse "but I was just following orders" you are just as culpable. I know we can't really hold people in 40k to real life standards, but both Perturabo and Curze were both held accountable for glassing their planets which were in open rebellion and I wonder why Russ was not held accountable for glassing Prospero when most of the populace did nothing wrong.

It isn't about Magnus deserving it karmically. It isn't about what Magnus did to lead himself into this situation in the first place. It was about Russ thinking that Magnus was too dangerous to take back to Terra alive, and that the galaxy was better off without Prospero and all of its inhabitants, innocent or not. As soon as Russ got the excuse to act on what he was feeling deep down, he did. He didn't question it, even though Horus was countermanding/changing an order given directly by the emperor, right out of the emperor's own mouth.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Plus no one complains about Russ not questioning the order to sanction Angron. In that case, he was never ordered to kill Angron (not that he could lol), so he didn't try to kill him, but both legions still went to war. In the case of Magnus he was ordered to kill him. Its what he was made to do, he did it once before and rumours say he did it to both the lost legions. Its a bit like Dorn getting told to bolster the Imperial palace, saying 'he should have question doing that, as it was an order that had never before been contemplated should that mean that it was completely alien to him.'

err.. pretty sure it was heavily implied Russ wasn't acting under orders when he confronted Angron.

w1zard wrote:


All I'm saying is that Russ and the Wolves were not the good guys on Prospero. Russ disobeyed a direct order from the emperor because it was countermanded

Incorrect, it was not countermanded, it was altered. Countermanding it would suggest Horus told Russ to bring Magnus to him instead of the Emperor, or to not go at all.

by someone of lesser authority (yes I'm fully aware that Horus "speaks with the authority of the emperor" but the emperor told Russ to do something straight out of his own mouth).

Also incorrect, Horus does not "speak with the authority of the Emperor", his orders are to be treated as if "they came from mine own mouth." To treat Horus' orders as lesser would be to question the wisdom and will of the Emperor and also to directly disobey an explicit order from the Emperor as well. Again, Horus didn't countermand, but edit, the order, and there was no reason to doubt the validity of that claim.

Russ just happened to agree with the new orders more and so he didn't think too hard about it. Horus tricked Russ, but he used Russ' hatred of Magnus to ensure his deception was successful. That was a failing on RUSS' part.

Quite possible, and likely, but you'll also find that in Prospero Burns, which tells the tale from Russ' own mouth, that he simply follows the orders. Its his job and it doesn't matter if he likes it or not. If the Emperor had told him to purge all Rune Priests from his own Legion he would have too. Or wiped out Ultramar, he also would have done that.

I also find it doubtful that Horus told Russ to wipe out the entire planet, as that should have sent alarm bells ringing in Russ' head. Add that to the fact that the burning of the libraries was most likely on Russ' individual initiative paints the picture of a man just itching for an excuse to visit bloodshed and destruction on his rivals.

No, that would be the Emperor himself - first quote is from A Thousand Sons, and the second from Collected Visions

"Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me.He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light."

"If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time"

If we are going to use real life military examples as some have started to... If you are ordered by a superior officer to slaughter civilians you have a duty to disobey that order. If you follow it and use the excuse "but I was just following orders" you are just as culpable. I know we can't really hold people in 40k to real life standards, but both Perturabo and Curze were both held accountable for glassing their planets which were in open rebellion and I wonder why Russ was not held accountable for glassing Prospero when most of the populace did nothing wrong.

The Emperor is not a superior officer, he is ultimate ruler and master of mankind, and Horus his voice. This goes beyond purely military structure. Also, those standards are a very modern construct - medieval warriors often celebrated a victory with a good ol' rape of all the women they just widowed. The Emperor is more on an authoritative level to God for Christians, and if during the Crusades (the Earth ones), God had directly come down and said "Burn the entire Middle East to ashes" none would even think twice.

Also, see again this line " I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that." All of Magnus' followers include the population of Prospero.

Curze and Perturabo were held accountable for Exterminatus on an Imperial World without sanction or reason, when the standard procedure was to re-conquer and bring them into compliance. Russ followed explicit orders to glass the planet. Besides - soon after Prospero, the Heresy broke out, the Emperor was dead-ish, and everyone had seen the Sons fighting alongside Horus at Terra. No one was questioning him then.

It isn't about Magnus deserving it karmically. It isn't about what Magnus did to lead himself into this situation in the first place. It was about Russ thinking that Magnus was too dangerous to take back to Terra alive, and that the galaxy was better off without Prospero and all of its inhabitants, innocent or not. As soon as Russ got the excuse to act on what he was feeling deep down, he did. He didn't question it, even though Horus was countermanding/changing an order given directly by the emperor, right out of the emperor's own mouth.

See above about "from mine own mouth" and everything else. Russ' thinking didn't come into it. He followed legit orders to the letter.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Plus no one complains about Russ not questioning the order to sanction Angron. In that case, he was never ordered to kill Angron (not that he could lol), so he didn't try to kill him, but both legions still went to war. In the case of Magnus he was ordered to kill him. Its what he was made to do, he did it once before and rumours say he did it to both the lost legions. Its a bit like Dorn getting told to bolster the Imperial palace, saying 'he should have question doing that, as it was an order that had never before been contemplated should that mean that it was completely alien to him.'

err.. pretty sure it was heavily implied Russ wasn't acting under orders when he confronted Angron.

err... positive the Emperor dispatched Russ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

w1zard wrote:
Never claimed that Magnus was innocent. Him breaking the edict at Nikaea and his general disregard for messing about with sorcery did a LOT of harm, arguably even dooming humanity by destroying their last best hope against chaos.

All I'm saying is that Russ and the Wolves were not the good guys on Prospero. Russ disobeyed a direct order from the emperor because it was countermanded by someone of lesser authority (yes I'm fully aware that Horus "speaks with the authority of the emperor" but the emperor told Russ to do something straight out of his own mouth). Russ just happened to agree with the new orders more and so he didn't think too hard about it. Horus tricked Russ, but he used Russ' hatred of Magnus to ensure his deception was successful. That was a failing on RUSS' part.

I also find it doubtful that Horus told Russ to wipe out the entire planet, as that should have sent alarm bells ringing in Russ' head. Add that to the fact that the burning of the libraries was most likely on Russ' individual initiative paints the picture of a man just itching for an excuse to visit bloodshed and destruction on his rivals.

If we are going to use real life military examples as some have started to... If you are ordered by a superior officer to slaughter civilians you have a duty to disobey that order. If you follow it and use the excuse "but I was just following orders" you are just as culpable. I know we can't really hold people in 40k to real life standards, but both Perturabo and Curze were both held accountable for glassing their planets which were in open rebellion and I wonder why Russ was not held accountable for glassing Prospero when most of the populace did nothing wrong.

It isn't about Magnus deserving it karmically. It isn't about what Magnus did to lead himself into this situation in the first place. It was about Russ thinking that Magnus was too dangerous to take back to Terra alive, and that the galaxy was better off without Prospero and all of its inhabitants, innocent or not. As soon as Russ got the excuse to act on what he was feeling deep down, he did. He didn't question it, even though Horus was countermanding/changing an order given directly by the emperor, right out of the emperor's own mouth.

Russ did not disobey any order from the Emperor. New orders come in and they have to be acted on straight away especially with the drawbacks of astrophathic orders, for instance, maybe Horus got new orders and Russ failed to get them due to warp storms or the astropaths not being able to decipher the message. Horus gave him new orders and his orders are just as valid when it comes to affairs of the great crusade. You are just flat out wrong.

Table wrote:
The Thousand Sons, more than any other legion have furthered the downfall of humanity. Both in the past and present. The current galactic severance is a direct result of the 1ksons machinations and warp rituals. They have also destroyed much of the Fenris system and left the SW's in tatters.
Magnus and his ilk are not tragic victims. Magnus directly disobeyed the censur orders of Nikea.

To be fair, so did the Space Wolves, unless one really buys their whole hipster "we don't use the Warp, we totes use the native power of Fenris that we super duper pinky swear isn't the Warp" schtick.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Magnus's Hubris and the Emperor's be the worst possible father at all times to nearly all my kids are what caused this.

"Daaaaaaaad...can you hear me? The basement door is locked...I know you don't want to be disturbed, but big brother is going around dousing the house with gasoline and he's really gone off the deep end talking with weird brother about crazy end of the world stuff while they play with matches, I *really* think you need to come pay attention here, I'm worried and I'm gonna come in if you don't answer, **** is getting real up here...hello?"

Magnus didn't need to destroy everything in the process of talking to the Big E though did he?

 Vaktathi wrote:

Table wrote:
The Thousand Sons, more than any other legion have furthered the downfall of humanity. Both in the past and present. The current galactic severance is a direct result of the 1ksons machinations and warp rituals. They have also destroyed much of the Fenris system and left the SW's in tatters.
Magnus and his ilk are not tragic victims. Magnus directly disobeyed the censur orders of Nikea.

To be fair, so did the Space Wolves, unless one really buys their whole hipster "we don't use the Warp, we totes use the native power of Fenris that we super duper pinky swear isn't the Warp" schtick.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Magnus's Hubris and the Emperor's be the worst possible father at all times to nearly all my kids are what caused this.

"Daaaaaaaad...can you hear me? The basement door is locked...I know you don't want to be disturbed, but big brother is going around dousing the house with gasoline and he's really gone off the deep end talking with weird brother about crazy end of the world stuff while they play with matches, I *really* think you need to come pay attention here, I'm worried and I'm gonna come in if you don't answer, **** is getting real up here...hello?"

That's over selling how communication works in 40k. Magnus decided that the emperor needed to know right away which is not a bad assumption. However there were less risky ways to get that info to the Emperor. Magnus played right into chaos's hands by doing the worst possible thing. It really should not be underplayed how much his actions doomed humanity into forever needing the warp.

pm713 wrote:
Magnus didn't need to destroy everything in the process of talking to the Big E though did he?

IIRC the damage he cause was unintentional, he had no idea what was going on, but had no other way to contact the Emperor directly.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

That's over selling how communication works in 40k. Magnus decided that the emperor needed to know right away which is not a bad assumption. However there were less risky ways to get that info to the Emperor. Magnus played right into chaos's hands by doing the worst possible thing. It really should not be underplayed how much his actions doomed humanity into forever needing the warp.

If memory serves wasn't the Emperor completely absorbed in his webway project and cut off from outside contact during this time?