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 Pilau Rice wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the problem is that the warning about Horus' treachery came from a space wolves rune preist who'd been trying to unmuck Hawser. which made it largely suspect as Russ belvied at the time Hawser had been corrupted by 1K son "Malificarium" in short "was that warning real?" "Nah, just Magnus trying to confuse us"

Indeed, but then you get a a message to go and bring your brother back because he's risked everything by sending a psychic message to your father about your other brother going traitor. Hadn't he heard something like that before ... Erring on the side of caution might have been prudent. But it is Russ after all. Imagine the outcome if Russ had had a tea and a biscuit with Magnus and good natter. Tzeentch would be like dóh

thing is I'm not sure Russ knew what the message sent was. (heck did Magnus actually relay the message or was it a case of he got through, saw immediatly what he had done and was all... "damn I'mm uhh come back later... when you're not epicly face palming dad"

Russ himself didn't want to kill Magnus:

"The Wolf King turned to Helwintr and the escort. ‘Take him away, but keep him with us, right to the advance. I want that channel to my brother left open. My poor brother. I want him to see us coming. I want him to know it’ll never be too late for him to beg for mercy.’ ‘My lord,’said Hawser. ‘What happens now?’ ‘Now?’ Leman Russ replied. ‘Now, Prospero falls.’"

Very important quote - shows again that Magnus could have done things different - even at the end.

BrianDavion wrote:


thing is I'm not sure Russ knew what the message sent was. (heck did Magnus actually relay the message or was it a case of he got through, saw immediatly what he had done and was all... "damn I'mm uhh come back later... when you're not epicly face palming dad"

It's been a while since I've read the books and I do not have them to hand. But Magnus reflects that even though he managed to deliver his message to the Emperor it went unheard due to his fnarping up of the webway project.

Also see the quote that Delvarus posted before, he is aware of the contents from the message. What the revealed contents were we don't know, but involving Horus seems to be accurate. As Delvarus suppied

‘Magnus claimed that great Horus was about to turn against the Imperium,’said Russ. ‘From the look
on your face, Ahmad Ibn Rustah, I see you recognise how ridiculous that sounds.’
Hawser switched his gaze to Helwintr. The priest’s masked face was unreadable.
‘Wolf King, great lord,’ Hawser began, ‘that’s not the first time that warnings concerning the
Warmaster have been voiced. Please, lord—’
‘Our skjald refers to the incident involving Eada Haelfwulf, lord,’said Helwintr.
‘I know of it,’ said Russ. ‘It seems corroborative, I grant you. But once again, consider the strategy.
It involved maleficarum turning and twisting one of our own gothi, in the immediate vicinity of you,
an identified conduit for the enemy’s power. Of course poor Haelfwulf would gabble out the same
damned lie with his dying breath. It’s supposed to make Magnus’s story sound more credible by
coming from a secondary source.’

Horus sends a message to Russ saying to eliminate the wolves and Magnus and Russ doesn't even bat an eyelid. I found a bit more to that quote, here's the full text.

‘My lord,’ said Hawser. ‘What… what did your brother do?’

‘He performed an act of maleficarum that drove his sorcery right to the heart of Terra and into the presence of the Emperor,’ said Helwintr.

‘But… why?’ asked Hawser.

‘It was an alleged attempt to communicate a warning,’ said Russ without turning. His voice was a soft grumble, like thunder grinding in the far distance.

‘A warning, my lord?’

‘One of such terrible importance, Magnus felt it was worth exposing his own treachery to reveal it,’ Russ murmured.

‘Forgive me,’ said Hawser, ‘but does that not speak to some loyalty in your brother? Has the warning been examined? Has it been taken seriously?’ Russ turned back to face him.

‘Why would it? My brother is a madman. A dabbling warlock.’

‘Lord,’ said Hawser, ‘he was prepared to admit he was ignoring the edicts of Nikaea, and risk the censure that he knew must result from that admission, to relay a warning. Why would he do that unless the warning was valid?’

‘You’re not a warrior, skjald,’ said the Wolf King in an almost kindly tone. ‘Strategy is not your strong suit. Consider the reverse of your proposition. Magnus wants the ruling of Nikaea overturned. He wants permission and approval to continue with his arcane tinkerings and his foul magics. So he manufactures a threat, something he can warn us about that is so astonishing we would have to forgive him, and set aside our objections. Something so unthinkable, we would have to thank him and tell him he had been right all along. All along. This is his ploy.’

‘Do you know what was so unthinkable? asked Hawser.

‘Magnus claimed that great Horus was about to turn against the Imperium,’ said Russ. ‘From the look on your face, Ahmad Ibn Rustah, I see you recognise how ridiculous that sounds.’

Hawser switched his gaze to Helwintr. The priest’s masked face was unreadable.

‘Wolf King, great lord,’ Hawser began, ‘that’s not the first time that warnings concerning the Warmaster have been voiced. Please, lord—’

‘Our skjald refers to the incident involving Eada Haelfwulf, lord,’ said Helwintr.

‘I know of it,’ said Russ. ‘It seems corroborative, I grant you. But once again, consider the strategy. It involved maleficarum turning and twisting one of our own gothi, in the immediate vicinity of you, an identified conduit for the enemy’s power. Of course poor Haelfwulf would gabble out the same damned lie with his dying breath. It’s supposed to make Magnus’s story sound more credible by coming from a secondary source.’

Russ looked down into Hawser’s eyes.

‘Truth is, it’s the proof I need that Magnus is desperately trying to coordinate a campaign of disinformation to support his ruse. He doesn’t need to answer through you, skjald. He’s answered already.’

I guess that's why they keep Hawser on Ice, to keep him quiet

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
the only person trying to pretend is you if you think Russ did anything wrong.

Dude you are sooooooo not neutral. Okay still think he did something wrong but saying this "when he was explicitly ordered to do otherwise by the Emperor. " when multiple people have proven you wrong, Horus had full authority to order Russ to do what he did and Russ had no authority not to do what he ordered. Horus was warmaster, he had 'full' authority when it comes to issues of the Great Crusade. Ask yourself this, if Horus did not have the authority to do what he did, why was Russ never called into dispute because of it, not even a mention, Malcador talked to him after that, he never said 'yeah you shouldn't have dome that.' The Emperor even condoned what Russ did:

I'm sure if Horus started to order the legions to attack each other the Emperor would have something to say about it. Horus wields his authority because the Emperor granted it to him, it doesn't give Horus the right to do whatever he wants if it runs contrary to the Imperium's interest. Horus had no authority to order the wolves to attack Prospero, especially since the EMPEROR order the wolves to arrest Magnus.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
‘And what happens when Russ takes it upon himself to decide who is loyal and who deserves execution?’

Malcador had a point... The Emperor's only response to that was "nah I trust him", which is kind of foolish in my mind. This exchange only proves that Imperium looked the other way when it came to the wolves, not that the wolves can do no wrong. Are you seriously arguing that Russ could have done whatever he wanted and that makes it ok because the Emperor trusts him?

 Formosa wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Prior to wolfbane I firmly believed Russ to be a traitor, not to the emperor but to his brothers and imperium at large, after realising his mistake he showed no remorse for his actions and continued to hound the surviving thousand sons, finally wolfsbane showed that Russ knew he had wronged Magnus and felt remorse for it, he knew he was a hypocrite and showed genuine remorse, this has made him a much more relatable character and I no longer hate the character, good job done expanding his character.

Lol then why are people here trying to pretend that Russ didn't do "wrong" by Magnus? This whole discussion was never about Magnus deserving it (he probably did), or what Magnus did to put himself in that situation (a lot). It was about the Wolves and their actions on Prospero.

Stop talking nonsense, I’m not pretending anything and if that’s what you got from what I wrote then I agree with others here and you are showing very clear bias.

What??? You are the one saying Russ felt bad for wronging Magnus, I thought you were agreeing with me. In order to feel bad for "wronging" someone you have to do "wrong".

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I got to thinking if sending the Space Wolves was the worst decision the Emperor could have made regarding Magnus.

I decided no. It'd be pretty funny to read an alt-history version where the Death Guard, World Eaters, or Night Lords had been tasked with bringing the Thousand Sons back to Terra.

The Alpha Legion might have sent a party barge to Prospero with a sign saying "Free Magick books inside!" filled with Sisters of Silence.

The Night Lords or World Eaters would have probably started a fight even if Horus had not change the orders. Angron didn't really do take them alive and Curze could barely control and or stand most of his legion by that point.

I think he picked the wolves because he knew Russ was level headed enough to handle it well if Magnus cooperated but more than willing/experienced in fighting other legions that he would pull the trigger if Magnus resisted. Magnus picked the worst option in my opinion. He let most of his legion die for sins he had committed, then doubled down on sin at the last minute. He could have just surrendered peacefully and faced justice for his mistakes. Instead he made a bad situation worse.

Despite being mistaken about Horus, the point Russ made to Hawser about strategy is pretty insightful. Magnus never accepted the edict and was indeed casting about for some way to prove his father wrong. This was his main agenda, not warning the Emperor about Horus.

Perhaps the Emperor should have "invited" Magnus to an extended stay on Terra immediately after the Council. But doubtless this would have been seen by the other Primarchs as jumping the gun. I almost think the edict was meant as a trap for Magnus, that the Emperor knew Magnus would violate it and this would justify Magnus being sentenced to the Golden Throne.

 Manchu wrote:
Perhaps the Emperor should have "invited" Magnus to an extended stay on Terra immediately after the Council. But doubtless this would have been seen by the other Primarchs as jumping the gun. I almost think the edict was meant as a trap for Magnus, that the Emperor knew Magnus would violate it and this would justify Magnus being sentenced to the Golden Throne.

I actually agree that this is a distinct possibility.

w1zard wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Perhaps the Emperor should have "invited" Magnus to an extended stay on Terra immediately after the Council. But doubtless this would have been seen by the other Primarchs as jumping the gun. I almost think the edict was meant as a trap for Magnus, that the Emperor knew Magnus would violate it and this would justify Magnus being sentenced to the Golden Throne.

I actually agree that this is a distinct possibility.

I actually view it the other way. It was the Emperor giving Magnus one more chance to stop and obey. Magnus didn't and brought his home and legion to ruin because he thought he was smarter than everyone else.

I agree that Magnus's arrogance destroyed him and his Legion. But that is not mutually exclusive to the notion that the Emperor may never have expected that Magnus would or could comply with the Edict.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I actually view it the other way. It was the Emperor giving Magnus one more chance to stop and obey. Magnus didn't and brought his home and legion to ruin because he thought he was smarter than everyone else.

Well we know that the Emperor planned for Magnus to sit on the golden throne at some point. Giving him "one more chance" seems pretty counterproductive to that. It makes much more sense to set him up to break some law so you have an excuse to arrest him and force him on the throne.

The Emperor wasn't an idiot, regardless of how his plans turned out. He had to know that Magnus wouldn't follow the edict.

w1zard wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I actually view it the other way. It was the Emperor giving Magnus one more chance to stop and obey. Magnus didn't and brought his home and legion to ruin because he thought he was smarter than everyone else.

Well we know that the Emperor planned for Magnus to sit on the golden throne at some point. Giving him "one more chance" seems pretty counterproductive to that. It makes much more sense to set him up to break some law so you have an excuse to arrest him and force him on the throne.

The Emperor wasn't an idiot, regardless of how his plans turned out. He had to know that Magnus wouldn't follow the edict.

Wasn't he? The Emperor was pretty clearly never good with people that's why he had the Heresy. He saw the Primarchs as tools so there's no reason Magnus wouldn't do as he said. A screwdriver doesn't complain about screwing.

pm713 wrote:
Wasn't he? The Emperor was pretty clearly never good with people that's why he had the Heresy. He saw the Primarchs as tools so there's no reason Magnus wouldn't do as he said. A screwdriver doesn't complain about screwing.

I guess you have a point... but, that is just so... bad? It's pretty obvious the Emperor underestimated the "human element" in his plans and was pretty disconnected from the human condition, but to THAT extent? That isn't making a mistake, that is pushing incompetence.

It makes me question his judgment in other areas *cough*Russ*cough*.

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Wasn't he? The Emperor was pretty clearly never good with people that's why he had the Heresy. He saw the Primarchs as tools so there's no reason Magnus wouldn't do as he said. A screwdriver doesn't complain about screwing.

I guess you have a point... but, that is just so... bad? It's pretty obvious the Emperor underestimated the "human element" in his plans and was pretty disconnected from the human condition, but to THAT extent? That isn't making a mistake, that is pushing incompetence.

It makes me question his judgment in other areas *cough*Russ*cough*.

The Emperor IS incompetent. That's why you have things like trying to just ignore Chaos to avoid corruption, deciding all out war is the best path with 0 alternatives tried, putting almost all manufacturing and research in the hands of religious nuts and putting several people who were clearly unstable as leaders of his armies.

pm713 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Wasn't he? The Emperor was pretty clearly never good with people that's why he had the Heresy. He saw the Primarchs as tools so there's no reason Magnus wouldn't do as he said. A screwdriver doesn't complain about screwing.

I guess you have a point... but, that is just so... bad? It's pretty obvious the Emperor underestimated the "human element" in his plans and was pretty disconnected from the human condition, but to THAT extent? That isn't making a mistake, that is pushing incompetence.

It makes me question his judgment in other areas *cough*Russ*cough*.

The Emperor IS incompetent. That's why you have things like trying to just ignore Chaos to avoid corruption, deciding all out war is the best path with 0 alternatives tried, putting almost all manufacturing and research in the hands of religious nuts and putting several people who were clearly unstable as leaders of his armies.

No he is not.

- On avoiding Chaos, he didn't avoid Chaos, but banned the worship of any Gods. Foremostly because active worship of the Dark Gods powers them far more than simply invoking one of their aspects, but also because he believes in the supremacy of the human race, and that humans need to see themselves as the most powerful beings, not inferior to a deity.

- He tried many alternative paths. Heavy suggested that he is every religious and major political figure in history, from Jesus and Mohammad to Julius Caesar. He was steadily trying to guide humanity towards an enlightened, Chaos-free life, but along the way realised that through the Machinations of Chaos, or human nature, they would always return to Chaos. He also realised that while Humanity was important, there might be hundreds of thousands of chaos-worshipper beings across the galaxy, and was proved right during the Heresy. Planets such as Laer and Cadia were powering up Chaos long before the Heresy. He realised the only was to accomplish his goal of putting humanity as a pinacle of existance AND getting them to see themselves that way, was to wipe out all the Chaos worshippers, aliens and other threats. Nothing invokes national pride in a desperate nation than steamrolling a bitter enemy and the Emperor simply gave them an enemy that wasn't each other.

- In terms of putting tech and manufacturing in the hands of religious nuts, this was a complete necessity. Only the Martian Priests had the know-how and understanding to fund his Crusade. He couldn't wipe them out, because then he'd have no one to build all his stuff. Don't forget, this is post-DAoT, meaning 99% of humanity had no idea how anything worked. The Martians may worship the Machine God and think its all his doing, but still were the only ones who could build stuff for him. Think of it this way - you are in the aftermath of the apocalypse. Humanity is either 80% dead, or scattered across the globe. You need a to build vehicles and houses to reunite the rest of the population. However, out of your 100 strong group, only have any understanding of mechanics, coding, hardware, software, etc. Problem is, there are zealots and will only build and code in the name of their god. Now, you could just beat them into submission, but who's to say they won't build you faulty guns or cars that break down when you need it most, or worse, fight back with an arsenal of tanks and T-800s they built themselves. You could also kill them off, but then, no one in your 98 strong group has the slightest idea how to build a gun, car or program, there are no teachers and no instruction books to follow, and no way to learn. How do you then get the materials you need?

His plan to stop Chaos was to essentially deny what they were and humans are clearly not the most powerful beings at all. That's very obvious from the setting.

He could have easily made an enemy out of Orks instead of ensuring that every single civilisation capable of war would be at war with humanity.

It wasn't necessary at all. The Emperor supposedly has plans that manipulate beliefs and culture for centuries but he couldn't do something to make the Mechanicus better at their job? The Imperiums sole source of technology took centuries to approve changing the side weapons of a tank. Anybody who considers that acceptable should not be in charge.

 Deadshot wrote:
- He tried many alternative paths. Heavy suggested that he is every religious and major political figure in history, from Jesus and Mohammad to Julius Caesar. He was steadily trying to guide humanity towards an enlightened, Chaos-free life, but along the way realised that through the Machinations of Chaos, or human nature, they would always return to Chaos. He also realised that while Humanity was important, there might be hundreds of thousands of chaos-worshipper beings across the galaxy, and was proved right during the Heresy. Planets such as Laer and Cadia were powering up Chaos long before the Heresy. He realised the only was to accomplish his goal of putting humanity as a pinacle of existance AND getting them to see themselves that way, was to wipe out all the Chaos worshippers, aliens and other threats. Nothing invokes national pride in a desperate nation than steamrolling a bitter enemy and the Emperor simply gave them an enemy that wasn't each other.

Isn't this, especially in retrospect, an out and out mistake? Sure, he isn't incompetent from the standpoint of establishing Order. But that course of action isn't attainable, sustainable or beneficial long-term.

If the Emperor was such an enlightened figure, how did he not understand the fundamental (necessary) balance between Order and Chaos? And that there is literally no way to completely expunge Chaos? Further that even if you could, it would not be beneficial to the universe in the long run. Overwhelming order and rationality is/would be just as detrimental to everyone's well-being as overwhelming Chaos.

It's either arrogance or ignorance, but in either case it's a mistake. Even well intentioned mistakes are still mistakes. Order is necessary and fixative. Chaos is necessary and generative. Balance is the correct formulation and so finding that balance is enlightenment. Anything else is simply robbing Peter to pay Paul. Eventually Paul will come to collect...

 H wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
- He tried many alternative paths. Heavy suggested that he is every religious and major political figure in history, from Jesus and Mohammad to Julius Caesar. He was steadily trying to guide humanity towards an enlightened, Chaos-free life, but along the way realised that through the Machinations of Chaos, or human nature, they would always return to Chaos. He also realised that while Humanity was important, there might be hundreds of thousands of chaos-worshipper beings across the galaxy, and was proved right during the Heresy. Planets such as Laer and Cadia were powering up Chaos long before the Heresy. He realised the only was to accomplish his goal of putting humanity as a pinacle of existance AND getting them to see themselves that way, was to wipe out all the Chaos worshippers, aliens and other threats. Nothing invokes national pride in a desperate nation than steamrolling a bitter enemy and the Emperor simply gave them an enemy that wasn't each other.

Isn't this, especially in retrospect, an out and out mistake? Sure, he isn't incompetent from the standpoint of establishing Order. But that course of action isn't attainable, sustainable or beneficial long-term.

If the Emperor was such an enlightened figure, how did he not understand the fundamental (necessary) balance between Order and Chaos? And that there is literally no way to completely expunge Chaos? Further that even if you could, it would not be beneficial to the universe in the long run. Overwhelming order and rationality is/would be just as detrimental to everyone's well-being as overwhelming Chaos.

It's either arrogance or ignorance, but in either case it's a mistake. Even well intentioned mistakes are still mistakes. Order is necessary and fixative. Chaos is necessary and generative. Balance is the correct formulation and so finding that balance is enlightenment. Anything else is simply robbing Peter to pay Paul. Eventually Paul will come to collect...

Perhaps my choice of wording was poor. He did not aim towards a Chaos-free life, but rather, one where the Chaos Gods did not have total control over Humanity. The Chaos God's goal is total Chaos, everything to the extreme - anger, hate, bloodshed, ambition and scheme, death and disease and stagnation, ecstasy and pleasure and pride. No restraint whatsoever,

Total order would be as per the Eldar - 110% dedication to a singular existance, and they seem to resist Chaos pretty well.


The Emperor tried to strike a balance between the two, leaning towards restraint and order. In order to do this he created religions such as Christianity and Islam in the guise of various prophets like Jesus and Mohammad, teaching that various emotions such as jealousy, violence, and pride were damning (because they are) while healing disease and illness to counteract Nurgle. He was not ignorant to the necessity of Chaos, but also new that it was uncontrollable, and so in order to avoid total fall into Chaos, required strict Order to compensate. But he also realised that although he could teach humanity and guide them towards relative order, the number of alien Chaos cults would always overpower humanity's order. In order to ensure that only humanity could control its destiny, he had to erradicate all other life. There's also a fact that other aliens are natural threats to human existance but that's another point.

TDLR, he wanted to drastically reduce Chaos' power, not wipe it out completely, which is impossible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
His plan to stop Chaos was to essentially deny what they were and humans are clearly not the most powerful beings at all. That's very obvious from the setting.

He could have easily made an enemy out of Orks instead of ensuring that every single civilisation capable of war would be at war with humanity.

It wasn't necessary at all. The Emperor supposedly has plans that manipulate beliefs and culture for centuries but he couldn't do something to make the Mechanicus better at their job? The Imperiums sole source of technology took centuries to approve changing the side weapons of a tank. Anybody who considers that acceptable should not be in charge.

I never said they were the most powerful, just that the Emperor wanted them to see themselves as the pinacle of creation. Not as gifted in mind or body that the Eldar, but more tempered. Not as physical as the Ork, but smarter. More adaptable than the alien and their enemies. Not perfect in any way, but better due to their combined traits. Its a trope used many times over in sci-fi. The superiority of human nature over seeming insurmountable odds. He knew that humans wouldn't be able to compete physically, so he gave them the tools and weaponry to fight back, the Space Marines.

The Orks are but one enemy, and he knows this, and he actually did make out the Ork to be the main enemy, along with others. But once the Orks are gone, who then to fight? Make an enemy out of everyone. Then you don't have to worry about alien cults dragging humanity into Chaos. Chaos is once and forever the true enemy. Everything else is just a side-villain. To compare to other media -

MCU - Chaos is Thanos, the big bad that everything leads towards. All the others, the Orks, the Eldar, the Nids, the Tau, those are the villains you see along the way. Iron Monger, The Abomination, Whiplash, Red Skull, Malekith, Hydra, Ronan, Ego, Dormammu, Vulture, Killmonger, Surtur, Hela, The Mandarin, AIM, Ultron, Loki, Yellowjacket... all these MCU villains, some great, some lesser, are in their own right a villain. But all are just filler to distract from the true enemy.

DC Arrowverse - Chaos could be any of the season villains, but the best analogy for the modern Imperium is Reverse-Flash, a dark reflection of the hero Flash. All other 15 or so villains or enemies he fights every week, just a filler to get you to the final battle. These fillers are the Xenos and the Heretic.

Chaos is the final boss, and when you defeat him, you complete the game. Everything else is just another step on the road to victory. Beating them is a great step, but unless you defeat Chaos, pointless.

Orks are a perfect enemy to rally against because they're never gone. The Eldar Empire couldn't eradicate them so it's fair to say the Imperium couldn't either.

If Chaos is the main enemy then why not join with other races who fight Chaos and are far more adept at it? The Emperor's actions aren't those of a person fighting Chaos they're the actions of a genocidal maniac.

pm713 wrote:
Orks are a perfect enemy to rally against because they're never gone. The Eldar Empire couldn't eradicate them so it's fair to say the Imperium couldn't either.

If Chaos is the main enemy then why not join with other races who fight Chaos and are far more adept at it? The Emperor's actions aren't those of a person fighting Chaos they're the actions of a genocidal maniac.

Because unending war is exactly what Khorne wants. Unending War with the Orks is Khorne's wet dream. As I said, the Ork was the big baddie of the Great Crusade due to their widespread population, but not the final enemy.

Because other races cannot be trusted to have humanity's best interest at heart. This was not just about fighting Chaos, it was about best serving mankind. If you asked an Eldar, for example, to put the interest of the human race above the life of a single Eldar, they'd wipe out every human without hesitation. Better to destroy all threats than take a chance by trust one. All of a sudden, you have mankind trusting aliens because they fought together - aliens who can corrupt, dominate, teach worship of their own gods who are actually just aspects of the Dark Gods in another name.

Besides, what other races could fight Chaos the way the Emperor intended, by erasing all knowledge of the Chaos Gods? The Interex and others knew what they were fighting. The Emperor did not tell anyone about Chaos for a simple reason - no one can worship a god they've never heard of. Sure, bloodshed and anger will always be part of the human psyche, as will pride and pleasure and death and disease. BUT, no one goes around offering the skulls of 888 of the galaxies greatest warriors to a big fat nothing. Or hosts an orgy of exactly 666 virgins. No one will go out of their way to worship a god they've never heard of, nor summon Daemons to the mortal plain to win favour of a God they don't know of. Most wouldn't even travel into the Warp if they didn't need to. Remove the need, remove the powering of the Dark Gods as much as possible and weaken them so that humanity may never need to worry about them, and live in peace and prosperity for eternity, without need for bloodshed, scheming or self-aggrandisement.

If unending war is really bad then why did the Emperor start it?

Is that because Eldar don't value life or because humans constantly try to exterminate them and are giant A-holes? Hint it's the second one. Alien allies did work and even if they did spread worship of their gods then that's not a wholly bad thing. Not all gods are Chaos.

None of them are dumb enough to try that. If you don't know what Chaos is you'll still hear a voice urging you to do as it says or to stab a guy in exchange for power.
Knowledge of Chaos prevents it which is why you don't have Chaos Eldar cropping up all the time but the Great Crusade had half the army turn.

None of the Emperor's plans were that good.

pm713 wrote:
If unending war is really bad then why did the Emperor start it?

Is that because Eldar don't value life or because humans constantly try to exterminate them and are giant A-holes? Hint it's the second one. Alien allies did work and even if they did spread worship of their gods then that's not a wholly bad thing. Not all gods are Chaos.

None of them are dumb enough to try that. If you don't know what Chaos is you'll still hear a voice urging you to do as it says or to stab a guy in exchange for power.
Knowledge of Chaos prevents it which is why you don't have Chaos Eldar cropping up all the time but the Great Crusade had half the army turn.

None of the Emperor's plans were that good.

I do believe the Emperor intended to WIN the Great Crusade. You have to play the game to win the game. He did not intend for unending war, but simply a long war that ultimately ENDS in Imperial supremacy.

Its because Eldar don't value non-Eldar life. Its routinely stated in every instance that Eldar would do anything to preserve the Eldar race. If a Farseer told an Eldar warrior that by slaughtering a whole colony of newborn human babes would save the life of a single Eldar, because one of those babies would eventually grow up and kill an Eldar but he doesn't know which, the Eldar Warrior would muster a warhost and burn the planet to the ground just to be sure. Even if it were an Eldar baby, rediculously rare, and a Farseer said with 100% certainty that this Eldar newborn would be the doom of the race, that baby would be chucked into the nearest incinerator right away.

Alien allies led to co-existance, which ultimately means that one day, relations with the alien will cause issues. The Emperor cannot control aliens and convince them to give up their gods. And yes, not all Gods are Chaos, but all gods are false gods, and defies the Imperial Truth that there are no gods, which in turn must therefore recognise the legitimacy of the Chaos Gods. Freedom of religion is great in 2018, but it also allows people to worship whatever they want - be it Christianity, Islam, Hindusim, Satanism, or even Jedi and Sith. Freedom of religion means you have to allow even those religions who believe its right to murder their way to the top of the foodchain. We don't permit that in 21st Century, so why permit it when worshipping said gods could lead to ACTUAL real Daemons popping up and devouring the souls of humanity? Again, not all gods are Chaos gods, but in order to effectively remove Chaos worship without "Freedom of religion" being thrust at him and eventually cast down as ruler - he simply supplements them with an all-encompasing religion, one that is antitheist, and instead of worshipping any gods, reveres the Human Being as a divine entity. At the very least, this might create a new Warp God who's is protecting humanity from the other warp entities who wish to devour them.

Chaos Eldar don't exist because Eldar don't have the relationship to Chaos as humans do. Humans can worship, serve and be rewarded by any of the four, elevated to Immortal Daemonhood. Fear of death is an innate part of being human, and in 40k, its confirmed that humans fundamentally have the fear of death due to the Nightbringer C'tan. Thereby, humans have a reason to serve Chaos, although arguably a worse option as an eternal being slaved to a dark god, to be obliterated at a whim, its only natural for humans to seek this immortality regardless of consequence. Eldar, on the other hand, are not pawns, potential recruits or otherwise for any Dark God, they are popcorn for Slaanesh. Any Eldar that dies without protection (Spirit Stone, Cegorach, a soul-transfer, Ynnead) is GUARENTEED to be devoured by Slaanesh. Slaanesh has first claim on all their souls and serving the other Gods only further guarentees their fate. There is no reward, only risk, to serving Chaos. Humans have a reward - kill a couple million people and become immortal. Half the Imperial Army turned because the Chaos Gods offered them something, be it glory, power, life, good looks, money, anything! Being honest with humanity gives them a choice, to risk it all on a sliver of a chance at immortality and everything your heart desires. Chaos has nothing to offer to the Eldar.


The Emperor's plans are great plans, and if they succeeded, would have saved humanity from Chaos forever.

The Emperor made one tiny mistake, and that is that he forgot that humans need something to revere. He forgot that part of human psyche requires pageantry and worship of something greater to exist*. He believed that by wiping out other religions, he could protect humanity from Chaos and he was right, but where he went wrong was denying his own power. He forgot that any being with sufficient power is indistinguishable from a god. And in doing so, he didn't realise that he sowed the seed of his own downfall, by standing as a god above Lorgar and claiming he was not. He either should have accepted his depiction, or embraced it, and let collective human worship elevate him to Godhood so that he might better protect humanity from the Warp from the inside. The irony is this is exactly what happened in the end.



On a side note, I believe this* is given to humanity by the Deceiver. In the same way the Nightbringer imprinted its image, via the warp, on the collective psyche of every living being as a symbol of death, the Deceiver imprinted itself by giving humanity the basic instinct and need for pageantry, grandeur and performance and worship.

Winning the Crusade was a bit irrelevant. Unless every single alien life form that was or had the potential to become capable of warfare was exterminated then more aliens would pop up to fight because with the Emperor that was their only choice. Fight or die.

That's rather the point. What preserves life more? A massive xenophobic empire that wants to kill every last member of your race or an empire that has a strained relationship with you but one that you allied with against Chaos?

Chaos Eldar exist because some can and did make deals to live and get enhanced powers. The others don't join in because they know what Chaos is and fight it.

Which plan was great? The dumb plan to take the Webway? Force all other life in the galaxy to war with them? Force technological dependence on a cult who understand nothing at all? Putting lunatics who hated him in charge of vast armies?

The Emperor isn't that smart and while it's largely a result of retroactively adding detail to the lore of pre 40k it's still a part of the setting.

Chaos Eldar don't exist because Eldar don't have the relationship to Chaos as humans do. Humans can worship, serve and be rewarded by any of the four, elevated to Immortal Daemonhood. Fear of death is an innate part of being human, and in 40k, its confirmed that humans fundamentally have the fear of death due to the Nightbringer C'tan. Thereby, humans have a reason to serve Chaos, although arguably a worse option as an eternal being slaved to a dark god, to be obliterated at a whim, its only natural for humans to seek this immortality regardless of consequence. Eldar, on the other hand, are not pawns, potential recruits or otherwise for any Dark God, they are popcorn for Slaanesh. Any Eldar that dies without protection (Spirit Stone, Cegorach, a soul-transfer, Ynnead) is GUARENTEED to be devoured by Slaanesh. Slaanesh has first claim on all their souls and serving the other Gods only further guarentees their fate. There is no reward, only risk, to serving Chaos. Humans have a reward - kill a couple million people and become immortal. Half the Imperial Army turned because the Chaos Gods offered them something, be it glory, power, life, good looks, money, anything! Being honest with humanity gives them a choice, to risk it all on a sliver of a chance at immortality and everything your heart desires. Chaos has nothing to offer to the Eldar.

Chaos Eldar do exist - always have done in the lore.

You worship Slaanesh and you don't get devoured, (yet) you might even become a powerful servant of the god. Exactly the same as any other Mortal. Slaanesh will enjoy it.

Imperium or not, Chaos or not, in the end the outcome is still the same.

If anything I find idea that humanity goes extinct without Imperium to be a bit ridiculous. Humanity will endure in some way, in some form - be it as proverbial hill tribes, as ghetto bound minorities or as gypsy style wanderers.

They will look on, as those they once looked down on rise above them, only repeat the same mistakes. Cycle of life 'n all - well, more like the cycle of misery tbh.

pm713 wrote:Winning the Crusade was a bit irrelevant. Unless every single alien life form that was or had the potential to become capable of warfare was exterminated then more aliens would pop up to fight because with the Emperor that was their only choice. Fight or die.

That's rather the point. What preserves life more? A massive xenophobic empire that wants to kill every last member of your race or an empire that has a strained relationship with you but one that you allied with against Chaos?

Chaos Eldar exist because some can and did make deals to live and get enhanced powers. The others don't join in because they know what Chaos is and fight it.

Which plan was great? The dumb plan to take the Webway? Force all other life in the galaxy to war with them? Force technological dependence on a cult who understand nothing at all? Putting lunatics who hated him in charge of vast armies?

The Emperor isn't that smart and while it's largely a result of retroactively adding detail to the lore of pre 40k it's still a part of the setting.

Small enemies here and there are good for empire building and national pride. A little war and violence is necessary otherwise humans will fight each other. Dominate the galaxy, and then "here's a nice little Ork village to bombard, have fun!"
What preserves human life and souls more? A massive xenophobic empire that kills all threats immediately without hesitation or taking a chance on an alien race that has other interests?
The great plan to take the webway and stop relying on the Warp. Killing all threats. The Cult Mechanicus was not part of the plan, but he worked with what he had. Likewise, lunatic Primarchs weren't the plan, but he worked with what he had.
The Emperor was very smart. His plan, had it gone to plan, was a masterstroke and would have worked. However, he is still human, and he made mistakes.

Mr Morden wrote:

Chaos Eldar don't exist because Eldar don't have the relationship to Chaos as humans do. Humans can worship, serve and be rewarded by any of the four, elevated to Immortal Daemonhood. Fear of death is an innate part of being human, and in 40k, its confirmed that humans fundamentally have the fear of death due to the Nightbringer C'tan. Thereby, humans have a reason to serve Chaos, although arguably a worse option as an eternal being slaved to a dark god, to be obliterated at a whim, its only natural for humans to seek this immortality regardless of consequence. Eldar, on the other hand, are not pawns, potential recruits or otherwise for any Dark God, they are popcorn for Slaanesh. Any Eldar that dies without protection (Spirit Stone, Cegorach, a soul-transfer, Ynnead) is GUARENTEED to be devoured by Slaanesh. Slaanesh has first claim on all their souls and serving the other Gods only further guarentees their fate. There is no reward, only risk, to serving Chaos. Humans have a reward - kill a couple million people and become immortal. Half the Imperial Army turned because the Chaos Gods offered them something, be it glory, power, life, good looks, money, anything! Being honest with humanity gives them a choice, to risk it all on a sliver of a chance at immortality and everything your heart desires. Chaos has nothing to offer to the Eldar.

Chaos Eldar do exist - always have done in the lore.

You worship Slaanesh and you don't get devoured, (yet) you might even become a powerful servant of the god. Exactly the same as any other Mortal. Slaanesh will enjoy it.

I have seen no indication that Chaos Eldar are still a thing in the modern fluff. It just doesn't make sense. Does a gazelle make deals with the Lion to become a little snitch for the lion, trapping its others while the lion closes in? No. The cat may play with a mouse before killing it, but in the end, it will kill the mouse. Eldar serving Slaanesh gain power, but when they die they are going to get eaten as well. Why would Slaanesh not eat the Eldar when it gets bored or angry. Its playing with matches in a methane-filled cave.

Taking the Webway is an atrocious plan. Firstly the Eldar would fight tooth and nail for it while having a tremendous advantage, then you have to deal with the fact the Webway itself tries to kill you, then work a way around the fact it's made of technology you can't interact with and finally you need some way to ensure nobody goes nuts and destroys the damn thing. Bad plan. You could apply equal effort to refining Gellar fields and do much better.

The Mechanicus could have been worked around with time and shouldn't have even been necessary with some forethought from the Emperor.
The lunatic Primarchs should have been ditched. That much was obvious but the Emperor couldn't deal with the idea they were people rather than tools that talk. Which is because he isn't really a human in the same way as Space Marines.

You seem very into the idea that the Emperor was pretty smart so we're going to have to agree to disagree.

They're a thing. I haven't seen any mention of the first Black Crusade but that's still around. Gazelle aren't smart. Do humans **** over other humans for gain? Yes very much.

There's the thing - Chaos Eldar are devoured when they DIE but half the point of becoming a godlike being is you never do. Slaanesh isn't a person with feelings in that way. As long as they continue to benefit from the Chaos Eldar they continue to live.

pm713 wrote:
Taking the Webway is an atrocious plan. Firstly the Eldar would fight tooth and nail for it while having a tremendous advantage, then you have to deal with the fact the Webway itself tries to kill you, then work a way around the fact it's made of technology you can't interact with and finally you need some way to ensure nobody goes nuts and destroys the damn thing. Bad plan. You could apply equal effort to refining Gellar fields and do much better.

The Mechanicus could have been worked around with time and shouldn't have even been necessary with some forethought from the Emperor.
The lunatic Primarchs should have been ditched. That much was obvious but the Emperor couldn't deal with the idea they were people rather than tools that talk. Which is because he isn't really a human in the same way as Space Marines.

You seem very into the idea that the Emperor was pretty smart so we're going to have to agree to disagree.

They're a thing. I haven't seen any mention of the first Black Crusade but that's still around. Gazelle aren't smart. Do humans **** over other humans for gain? Yes very much.

There's the thing - Chaos Eldar are devoured when they DIE but half the point of becoming a godlike being is you never do. Slaanesh isn't a person with feelings in that way. As long as they continue to benefit from the Chaos Eldar they continue to live.

Taking the Web Way, if successful would have removed humanities need for warp travel, something the Emperor really wanted. Plus once he got in via a stable gate the Eldar are in trouble. Short term Humanity would take heavy casualties but who care, humanities large asset is numbers. At this point the Eldar are scattered, recovering from the fall, and in no shape for a long term standing battle. The only reason they still exist is because they are constantly moving and try to only fight battles on their terms. If humanity gets stable access to the Webway both of those advantages do away fast.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Taking the Webway is an atrocious plan. Firstly the Eldar would fight tooth and nail for it while having a tremendous advantage, then you have to deal with the fact the Webway itself tries to kill you, then work a way around the fact it's made of technology you can't interact with and finally you need some way to ensure nobody goes nuts and destroys the damn thing. Bad plan. You could apply equal effort to refining Gellar fields and do much better.

The Mechanicus could have been worked around with time and shouldn't have even been necessary with some forethought from the Emperor.
The lunatic Primarchs should have been ditched. That much was obvious but the Emperor couldn't deal with the idea they were people rather than tools that talk. Which is because he isn't really a human in the same way as Space Marines.

You seem very into the idea that the Emperor was pretty smart so we're going to have to agree to disagree.

They're a thing. I haven't seen any mention of the first Black Crusade but that's still around. Gazelle aren't smart. Do humans **** over other humans for gain? Yes very much.

There's the thing - Chaos Eldar are devoured when they DIE but half the point of becoming a godlike being is you never do. Slaanesh isn't a person with feelings in that way. As long as they continue to benefit from the Chaos Eldar they continue to live.

Taking the Web Way, if successful would have removed humanities need for warp travel, something the Emperor really wanted. Plus once he got in via a stable gate the Eldar are in trouble. Short term Humanity would take heavy casualties but who care, humanities large asset is numbers. At this point the Eldar are scattered, recovering from the fall, and in no shape for a long term standing battle. The only reason they still exist is because they are constantly moving and try to only fight battles on their terms. If humanity gets stable access to the Webway both of those advantages do away fast.

It's a HUGE if. Plus it's way easier said than done to find a gateway. Humans can't interact with them so they're useless so he has to use the one in the Throne. So humanity is funnelled down a single path. So they have no numbers advantage because they're bottlenecked, they can't bring their superior firepower because they're limited to scout Titans whereas the Eldar have starships to use, the terrain itself is changing to block humans and even if humans get past this first bottleneck they're still trapped by the fact the Eldar can seal off the parts they lose.

Taking the Webway would be a very long, very bloody war that was incredibly hard to win and at the end of it the Eldar could just destroy it. If they're going to lose the Webway they can just destroy parts of it which maintains their advantage and leaves the Imperium massively drained with no gain.

I have seen no indication that Chaos Eldar are still a thing in the modern fluff. It just doesn't make sense. Does a gazelle make deals with the Lion to become a little snitch for the lion, trapping its others while the lion closes in? No. The cat may play with a mouse before killing it, but in the end, it will kill the mouse. Eldar serving Slaanesh gain power, but when they die they are going to get eaten as well. Why would Slaanesh not eat the Eldar when it gets bored or angry. Its playing with matches in a methane-filled cave.

Why wouldn't they be still around - Chaos corrupts, mortals are coruptable. Having an Eldar as a champion in its service is both a delicious irony and also a constant temptation, Slaanesh denying itself to prelong the pleasure that may never arrive.

Die - you wont die - thats the whole point - you are aiming for immortaility - so you will never die. Yes the Chaos God could absorb you - but that true of all Daemons ? And by that point i doubt you even care. If you fail well your soul is gone anyway.

All followers of Chaos tred this path - its insanity but only to the sane.

If the gazelle could make a deal with the lion it would, some would. Herd animals already rely on the death of others to make them live.

pm713 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Taking the Webway is an atrocious plan. Firstly the Eldar would fight tooth and nail for it while having a tremendous advantage, then you have to deal with the fact the Webway itself tries to kill you, then work a way around the fact it's made of technology you can't interact with and finally you need some way to ensure nobody goes nuts and destroys the damn thing. Bad plan. You could apply equal effort to refining Gellar fields and do much better.

The Mechanicus could have been worked around with time and shouldn't have even been necessary with some forethought from the Emperor.
The lunatic Primarchs should have been ditched. That much was obvious but the Emperor couldn't deal with the idea they were people rather than tools that talk. Which is because he isn't really a human in the same way as Space Marines.

You seem very into the idea that the Emperor was pretty smart so we're going to have to agree to disagree.

They're a thing. I haven't seen any mention of the first Black Crusade but that's still around. Gazelle aren't smart. Do humans **** over other humans for gain? Yes very much.

There's the thing - Chaos Eldar are devoured when they DIE but half the point of becoming a godlike being is you never do. Slaanesh isn't a person with feelings in that way. As long as they continue to benefit from the Chaos Eldar they continue to live.

Taking the Web Way, if successful would have removed humanities need for warp travel, something the Emperor really wanted. Plus once he got in via a stable gate the Eldar are in trouble. Short term Humanity would take heavy casualties but who care, humanities large asset is numbers. At this point the Eldar are scattered, recovering from the fall, and in no shape for a long term standing battle. The only reason they still exist is because they are constantly moving and try to only fight battles on their terms. If humanity gets stable access to the Webway both of those advantages do away fast.

It's a HUGE if. Plus it's way easier said than done to find a gateway. Humans can't interact with them so they're useless so he has to use the one in the Throne. So humanity is funnelled down a single path. So they have no numbers advantage because they're bottlenecked, they can't bring their superior firepower because they're limited to scout Titans whereas the Eldar have starships to use, the terrain itself is changing to block humans and even if humans get past this first bottleneck they're still trapped by the fact the Eldar can seal off the parts they lose.

Taking the Webway would be a very long, very bloody war that was incredibly hard to win and at the end of it the Eldar could just destroy it. If they're going to lose the Webway they can just destroy parts of it which maintains their advantage and leaves the Imperium massively drained with no gain.

Master of Mankind shows that the Eldar response to his project was not to fight but to start sealing portals, that is true. However that novel also establishes that the Emperor could make new webway sections. They were no were nearly as good as the Eldar version and needed a psyker like himself or Magnus to make it work properly but given enough time he could piggy back on it enough that the Eldar would be in trouble.