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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 IronBrand wrote:
They're not saying anything because it's the smart thing for them not to. Take a look at the video game industry. Companies do anti-consumer things there all the time. When the company keeps quiet people get apathetic. If the company says something it keeps the dialog open and it doesn't go away. If GW and FW stay silent about this it'll quiet down over time and anyone who brings it up will just get attacked by the apathetic masses.

Fair enough, tried and true. But wasn't there some impact from the Lockbox fiasco a while back?

People almost instantly lose interest in lootboxes because they're so used to them now. When it kicks off again it's always in regard to a specific game and if you say something about an older game you get attacked by the apathetic masses. People lose interest even when a thing is still ongoing.

 IronBrand wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 IronBrand wrote:
They're not saying anything because it's the smart thing for them not to. Take a look at the video game industry. Companies do anti-consumer things there all the time. When the company keeps quiet people get apathetic. If the company says something it keeps the dialog open and it doesn't go away. If GW and FW stay silent about this it'll quiet down over time and anyone who brings it up will just get attacked by the apathetic masses.

Fair enough, tried and true. But wasn't there some impact from the Lockbox fiasco a while back?

People almost instantly lose interest in lootboxes because they're so used to them now. When it kicks off again it's always in regard to a specific game and if you say something about an older game you get attacked by the apathetic masses. People lose interest even when a thing is still ongoing.

Unfortunately true. People just don't care anymore. They don't mind content being withheld and dropped as DLC on release, or micro transactions, or constantly shifting metas forcing them to buy new minis/characters/equipment etc. So long as they get their fix and are part of the herd.

This is price hike has made me wonder what the point of FW even is anymore.

FW once offered support to the sort of customers who wanted a more "serious" (read: pseudo-historicals) wargaming approach to 40k and who had grown up since 1992ish and gotten the sort of well-paying jobs that afforded them considerable disposable income. This culminated with the success of the Badab War redux, which seems to have lead to the ultimate "historicals" product line, the Horus Heresy. But then HH became a board game with plastic figures sold in Warhammer Stores, as opposed to a resin boutique mail order-only product line.

FW stuff had "gone plastic" before (most notably the Valkyrie and the current Leman Russ kit, with all the variant guns) but Betrayal at Calth and Burning of Propsero blazed a new trail: boxed games with plastic miniatures that would funnel customers from Warhammer Stores (i.e., any customer, as opposed to the highly qualified FW customer) to the FW platform. At the same time, GW was reinventing Specialist Games to do the same thing with resurrected product lines: Strategy Battles Game, Blood Bowl, Necromunda, and Adeptus Titanicus. All these games have some lovely, approachable, affordable (Adeptus Titanicus aside) products on the front end but they all lead deeper down the rabbit hole to FW.

I have to wonder whether FW is really capable of supporting these games qua successful product lines or if attaching them to FW, purveyors of ultra expensive resin, will ultimately drag down games that could have done better if the support was more accessible.

 Manchu wrote:
This is price hike has made me wonder what the point of FW even is anymore.

FW once offered support to the sort of customers who wanted a more "serious" (read: pseudo-historicals) wargaming approach to 40k and who had grown up since 1992ish and gotten the sort of well-paying jobs that afforded them considerable disposable income. This culminated with the success of the Badab War redux, which seems to have lead to the ultimate "historicals" product line, the Horus Heresy. But then HH became a board game with plastic figures sold in Warhammer Stores, as opposed to a resin boutique mail order-only product line.

FW stuff had "gone plastic" before (most notably the Valkyrie and the current Leman Russ kit, with all the variant guns) but Betrayal at Calth and Burning of Propsero blazed a new trail: boxed games with plastic miniatures that would funnel customers from Warhammer Stores (i.e., any customer, as opposed to the highly qualified FW customer) to the FW platform. At the same time, GW was reinventing Specialist Games to do the same thing with resurrected product lines: Strategy Battles Game, Blood Bowl, Necromunda, and Adeptus Titanicus. All these games have some lovely, approachable, affordable (Adeptus Titanicus aside) products on the front end but they all lead deeper down the rabbit hole to FW.

I have to wonder whether FW is really capable of supporting these games qua successful product lines or if attaching them to FW, purveyors of ultra expensive resin, will ultimately drag down games that could have done better if the support was more accessible.

I am guessing... Probably not. FW has become less and less relevant and this price hike kind of cements that to me. There is no reason to buy FW unless your running super cheesy competitive lists, unless your opponent just says "No I won't face your ELITE UBER forgeworld model."

They also lack the quality that we see from GW's model kits currently, while forgeworld has some very incredible sets Resin a jerk to work with and easily damaged.

To the extent that it could be true that FW is only for super cheesy stuff, it would only be true for 40k. For the Specialist Games line up, FW purchases are much more fundmental.

Zarakynel [Expletive Deleted] sucks on the tabletop, FWIW.

So try again.

 IronBrand wrote:
People almost instantly lose interest in lootboxes because they're so used to them now. When it kicks off again it's always in regard to a specific game and if you say something about an older game you get attacked by the apathetic masses. People lose interest even when a thing is still ongoing.

Well, when the fanboys hurl an entire paycheck into a game, and get what they want- they tend to be defensive about it.

 Asherian Command wrote:
They also lack the quality that we see from GW's model kits currently, while forgeworld has some very incredible sets Resin a jerk to work with and easily damaged.

Forge World quality still isn't anything to write home about. A good chunk of the stuff I've bought has needed to be replaced- I'm talking about entire chunks of the mold missing, holes, broken parts, missing parts, and miscasts so bad that a Dremmel tool couldn't fix it.

You know the old 'blanket ban' on Forge World? A good chunk of that was because FLGS owners got tired of the bickering that started with accusations of 'bootleg' or 'fake' Forge World models- because when it was relatively new to the US, most people couldn't believe that 'Actual Forge World' quality was so garbage.

I imagine FW will eventually stop many of their lines, reserving resin production for named characters, Titans, and perhaps upgrade sprues. All things that have limited selling value compared to more generic boxes of troops.

Everything else will be put into plastic. It would explain why they have been discontinuing several models(and lines) without offering much else instead.

 Eldarsif wrote:
I imagine FW will eventually stop many of their lines, reserving resin production for named characters, Titans, and perhaps upgrade sprues. All things that have limited selling value compared to more generic boxes of troops.

Everything else will be put into plastic. It would explain why they have been discontinuing several models(and lines) without offering much else instead.

That and also they seem to always be pretty crap honestly. We will see what they will do in the future but this price spike does not bode well for the companies future.

So, so, so many experts on GW's business model here. It's gratifying to see so many experts chime in, otherwise people might think we were just passing off our naked opinions as a forecast.

However will FW deal with the boycott that I'll wager 95% of people who sign up to will ignore anyway?

 Excommunicatus wrote:
So, so, so many experts on GW's business model here. It's gratifying to see so many experts chime in, otherwise people might think we were just passing off our naked opinions as a forecast.

However will FW deal with the boycott that I'll wager 95% of people who sign up to will ignore anyway?

Experts like the guy that's bought 2 things from them in 22 years?

Expertise that claims that a pricing complaint is 'entitlement'?

Yeah, thought so.

Yes, all those times I've held myself out as an expert and have made forecasts and predictions as to how this will shake out.

Go ahead and quote them. All zero of them.

You're really bad at this. Raise your game.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Yes, all those times I've held myself out as an expert and have made forecasts and predictions as to how this will shake out.

Actually, it seems you're the exact opposite.

Your position so far seems to be "I could afford the one toy I wanted, and anyone who takes issue with the price change is an entitled manchild. Being a dissatisfied customer is akin to being a whiny baby, no matter how reasonable the point of contention is"

So, if anyone needs to 'up their game', I'd say it's you. Because with that kind of attitude, no amount of snark or buzz-wording is going to win you approval. Believe it or not, Dakka isn't completely composed of people who'll side with these companies no matter what.

We, as customers, have a legitimate complaint. You, as a customer, do not. So, you don't have to side with anyone, but when you fight for a company this way you come off as a sad little fanboy, and it really tends to give people a poor perspective of GW/FW customers.

Make of that what you will, good day- and good luck finding quality people to play with, you'll need that with your attitude towards other customers.

I know, the complete opposite despite your best I know You Are You Said You Are But What Am I? nonsense.

Again, I'm not pro-FW, in case there are any twelve year olds out there who think 'fanboy' is a pejorative. I'm anti-people who think Ferrari owes them a car.

It's not a very subtle difference, but I understand that your position rests on not getting it and you aren't very good at this, so I'll let it ride this time.

I'm just curious where the entitlement claims come from. I understand if you disagree with other people, but at least label it correctly.

No one has once mentioned that they feel Forgeworld "must" price their products lower, or that anyone "deserves" the items at a lower price. We're all exceptionally aware that Forgeworld and Games Workshop are business entities. They can price stuff however they wish - that's their right. Just as its our right to provide vocal feedback that their pricing methods are laughable and will prevent plenty of us from giving them business in the future.

Don't people, as consumers have the right to say that? If anything, it's just blunt honest feedback. I've provided this feedback plenty o' times and occasionally directly to the source (not just GW, other businesses). How is that entitlement in any way?

I haven't purchased Forgeworld in years, and likely will continue to not do so. I can afford, but I choose not to. It's not about affording things, it's about what you're willing to pay. Forgeworld already charged a hefty premium for a non-premium product. Increasing that cost (as it has on a large percentage of their available offerings) isn't going to gain sales from folks like me.

It's not difficult to understand.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Again, I'm not pro-FW, in case there are any twelve year olds out there who think 'fanboy' is a pejorative. I'm anti-people who think Ferrari owes them a car.

At what point has anyone insisted that Forge World 'owes' them anything? At this point, the logical conclusion is:

A- You've found yourself in an argument where the only position you have is misrepresenting the opposition, which is so transparent- it could pass as invisible. You know full well 'Someone owing you a Ferrari' and 'displeasure with a price point change' are two completely different arguments.

B- You are completely incapable of understanding the concept of other customers being dissatisfied with a price hike on products. This isn't a difficult concept at all, and I'm not sure why you're struggling with it.


So you're either explicitly a troll, or the other answer is... well, pick any word you like for 'person who can't comprehend something simple'.

I've never understood why people defending their own freedom of expression think it trumps any rights anyone else has.

Why are you free to express yourself but I have to be quiet? Aside from it being an obvious tactic to try and stifle dissent, of course.

Of course you are free to share your opinion. So am I, even if that opinion is an opinion about your opinion. GASP!

Take a look around, at the world in which we live. Have a butcher's at the problems that people face the world over. Then try again to tell me that whinging about the price of some resin that is completely superfluous is not entitled. It is insanely entitled.

Done? Cool. Now go back through this thread and maybe look at a few others on exactly the same topic. How many people say things like it's not fair? One of the thread titles has the word 'improper' in it, for the love of the FSM. Anyway. Go through those threads and count how many people, implicitly or explicitly, argue that FW owes them.

Off you pop.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Again, I'm not pro-FW, in case there are any twelve year olds out there who think 'fanboy' is a pejorative. I'm anti-people who think Ferrari owes them a car.

At what point has anyone insisted that Forge World 'owes' them anything? At this point, the logical conclusion is:

A- You've found yourself in an argument where the only position you have is misrepresenting the opposition, which is so transparent- it could pass as invisible. You know full well 'Someone owing you a Ferrari' and 'displeasure with a price point change' are two completely different arguments.

B- You are completely incapable of understanding the concept of other customers being dissatisfied with a price hike on products. This isn't a difficult concept at all, and I'm not sure why you're struggling with it.


So you're either explicitly a troll, or the other answer is... well, pick any word you like for 'person who can't comprehend something simple'.

See above.

You're right, of course. You have responded from the get-go with nothing but insults and baseless assumptions that serve to insult. But yeah, I'm the problem here.

Still though, at least women let you touch them, eh? That was an important fact to establish.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Done? Cool. Now go back through this thread and maybe look at a few others on exactly the same topic. How many people say things like it's not fair? One of the thread titles has the word 'improper' in it, for the love of the FSM. Anyway. Go through those threads and count how many people, implicitly or explicitly, argue that FW owes them.

Off you pop.

No, I believe if you're going to be bothered enough by it- then you should feel free to produce such evidence.

And, once you do, realize that it's not everyone. Maybe call out those individuals.

Your right to express yourself hasn't been trumped. Or taken. But your opinion isn't going to be protected, either- so either learn to deal with that, or... well, as you said...

"Off you pop"

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Again, I'm not pro-FW, in case there are any twelve year olds out there who think 'fanboy' is a pejorative. I'm anti-people who think Ferrari owes them a car.

At what point has anyone insisted that Forge World 'owes' them anything? At this point, the logical conclusion is:

A- You've found yourself in an argument where the only position you have is misrepresenting the opposition, which is so transparent- it could pass as invisible. You know full well 'Someone owing you a Ferrari' and 'displeasure with a price point change' are two completely different arguments.

B- You are completely incapable of understanding the concept of other customers being dissatisfied with a price hike on products. This isn't a difficult concept at all, and I'm not sure why you're struggling with it.


So you're either explicitly a troll, or the other answer is... well, pick any word you like for 'person who can't comprehend something simple'.

Put him on ignore he is not here to have a honest discussion.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Still though, at least women let you touch them, eh? That was an important fact to establish.

They tend to do that if you're not obnoxious and act like an adult, just saying. Always ask first, just to be sure.

Also, I like how you keep coming back to this when you don't have an argument.

Umbrage isn't an argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Put him on ignore he is not here to have a honest discussion.

A fine thought, that. Especially since he can't even skirt around being insulting. I'll let the mods deal with him.

I highly doubt I'm the only one that'll have done that.

REMOVED

Rule Number One is Be Polite. Please ratchet down the intensity here folks. Thanks!

I'm anti-people who think Ferrari owes them a car.

Bad strawman is bad. Nobody is saying FW owes them anything. They are, however, complaining that this prices them out of a hobby they've most likely spent a lot of money on, and hypothesizing whether it will hit FW's bottom-line or not.

 Eldarsif wrote:

I'm anti-people who think Ferrari owes them a car.

Bad strawman is bad. Nobody is saying FW owes them anything. They are, however, complaining that this prices them out of a hobby they've most likely spent a lot of money on, and hypothesizing whether it will hit FW's bottom-line or not.

It will hit about as much as it hit GW when they did that same thing.

And lol at "FW broken cheese" when it's GW codexes you find the truly broken cheese you want to spam. There's reason it's GW codex stuff that dominates tournaments...

Complaining about price increases on a luxury item is not entitled and more than complaining about the price increases on food. Sure one is necessary for survival, and the other isn't, but they are both consumer goods. Should I allow myself to be price gouged on something I want to buy simply because other people are less fortunate than me? Ridiculous. I am not the 1%, I am not someone who can just throw their money away without a care.

Sure, companies exist to make money, and they are perfectly within their rights to raise their prices and offer me no explanation whatsoever. But as a consumer and loyal customer, I also have every right to be outraged at such treatment and to withhold my money from future purchases.

One of three things will happen as a result of this price increase and a large amount of disgruntled customers no longer buying FW goods.

A. The market will bear it. Enough people will still be buying FW products to see business continue. Whether the increase to revenue from higher prices is enough to offset the decrease in revenue from loss of foreign customers will determine whether this was a "good" or "bad" business decision.

B. FW will be forced to lower its prices to stay in business.

C. FW will go out of business, and good riddance.

I cannot realistically expect to demand price decreases or to get anyone to follow me but I can definitely control my own response to this and I am voting with my wallet. I am not buying another FW product until B or C happens. I refuse to reward anti-consumer behavior.

w1zard wrote:
Complaining about price increases on a luxury item is not entitled and more than complaining about the price increases on food. Sure one is necessary for survival, and the other isn't, but they are both consumer goods. Should I allow myself to be price gouged on something I want to buy simply because other people are less fortunate than me? Ridiculous. I am not the 1%, I am not someone who can just throw their money away without a care.

Sure, companies exist to make money, and they are perfectly within their rights to raise their prices and offer me no explanation whatsoever. But as a consumer and loyal customer, I also have every right to be outraged at such treatment and to withhold my money from future purchases.

One of three things will happen as a result of this price increase and a large amount of disgruntled customers no longer buying FW goods.

A. The market will bear it. Enough people will still be buying FW products to see business continue. Whether the increase to revenue from higher prices is enough to offset the decrease in revenue from loss of foreign customers will determine whether this was a "good" or "bad" business decision.

B. FW will be forced to lower its prices to stay in business.

C. FW will go out of business, and good riddance.

I cannot realistically expect to demand price decreases or to get anyone to follow me but I can definitely control my own response to this and I am voting with my wallet. I am not buying another FW product until B or C happens. I refuse to reward anti-consumer behavior.

It'll be A. 100% sure of that.

They may well take some lessons from the reaction to inform future decisions, but I'm certain they will still be selling enough to do fine and that they will not reduce prices.

tneva82 wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

I'm anti-people who think Ferrari owes them a car.

Bad strawman is bad. Nobody is saying FW owes them anything. They are, however, complaining that this prices them out of a hobby they've most likely spent a lot of money on, and hypothesizing whether it will hit FW's bottom-line or not.

It will hit about as much as it hit GW when they did that same thing.

And lol at "FW broken cheese" when it's GW codexes you find the truly broken cheese you want to spam. There's reason it's GW codex stuff that dominates tournaments...

Yet despite it coming up hundreds of times in hundreds of threads it will still come up millions of times in millions of threads.

Don't get too worked up by some guy who got banned from B+C.

Eh, closest I've ever come to FW models is owning the old Armorcast Baneblade & Shadowsword (and I think Armorcast was prior to FW). FW has always been above my comfort range for cost, they've just pushed it further into the "not gonna bother" range.

Doesn't mean I don't have more sane prices for similar models available to me. I might not be able to buy the Ferrari, but I can get something that looks like it that is in my prices range - nor does it stop me from dreaming of one day winning the lottery or getting a deal on one.

I think FW would do themselves a MASSIVE favour by at least trying to justify why they are raising prices.

The lack of any (sensible) communication in the face of a massive community outcry is a real PR humdinger.

Even if they just go 'brexit uncertainty, supply chain costs likely to increase, sorry guys' - it's something.

The crass response from the fb page hasn't helped. It seems, as twenty years ago, they are still hiring Orks over Inquisitors...