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hobojebus wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Tbh im a bit of a cheap skate to begin with, so I might just go recasting just to save a buck. Heck, I was probably gonna go recasting to begin with if the quality is good. I've never been one for customer loyalty when it comes to hobby stuff.

But all for piracy? Not really customer loyalty - that is not buy from competitors. While I wouldn't criticism someone for recasting OOP stuff, recasting currently on sale items is directly stealing. This is a non essential item, not a loaf of bread.

No it's not much the same way downloading a game off a piracy site isnt.

If someone's unwilling to pay the retail cost and goes to a recaster/pirate you haven't lost a sale the fact is you were never going to get that person's money even if the recaster/pirate wasn't there.

As I've said before it's not a legal issue it's a moral one, you may think it immoral to use a recaster but others dont.

It is a legal issue as it is copyright theft and it is against the law in most countries (its even against the law in China, its just that they don't respect international copyright, but they do have their own internal copyright system). People who try to make it a moral argument often fail to realise that it is stealing, plus it can even harm the company.

Take your computer game example, if bootleg copies are bought and users encounter problems they will, most times, jump right onto the games official support system (email/forums) and request help. So now they have not only not paid for the game, but they are not eating up time and money of the games developers trying to get help. Furthermore you could reach a situation like what Poland had where bootleg copies of games were so common most people thought that the market sold copies (bootleg) were legitimate. It was so prevalent that you couldn't tell, yet the developers knew they were losing sales all the time (GoG did a great video on this a short while back and their attitude was to offer legitimate customers more - to improve their customer relationship rather than go the DRM route).


For GW, as said above, these are not essential purchases and the recaster is leaching money out of the hobby itself. They are not paying to develop the model, run stores, gaming evenings, support channels, youtube tips, marketing, new products, lore, books, artwork, paints and accessories etc.... They are purely using their vastly lower overheads and copy-catting the product to undercut the legal market option.
Plus if it became "normal" even in a small way then you can bet they wouldn't stop with FW - its just easier for them to market that. You can bet they'd start making Warmachine Colossal and other big model range models at cut-prices. They would impact other games- heck Rackham had a reacasting company selling those models for years (although in that rare case they appear to have only recast whilst the product was out of production and have recently stopped and started their own line - likely an exception rather than the rule when it comes to recasters- though it still does not justify the recasting)

Don't forget that in general the law is divided into Civil and Criminal law and IP law is usually part of the Civil Code so recasters aren't criminals in a legal sense.

(I do not support recasting).

 Baragash wrote:
Don't forget that in general the law is divided into Civil and Criminal law and IP law is usually part of the Civil Code so recasters aren't criminals in a legal sense.

(I do not support recasting).

It'll vary from country to country, but in the US as an example recasters would be criminals. Criminal infringement is the intentional violation of copyright for financial gain. Civil would be cases like if it was just for personal use.

What's criminal is FW basically giving a middle finger to their International customer base and offering no explanation for it. And this is a clear case of price gouging (literally had price increases as high as 73%) so I don't buy the whole inflation, export import tax ect. excuses. When more people start going to recasters they are more than morally justified in doing so, FW clearly doesn't give a damn about customer issues or feedback (considering they have been deleting comments about it on Facebook and blatantly ignoring people's problems with it) so why the hell should potential customers care? FW created this situation so if there is any fallout or increase in sales for recasters it is on them and them alone.

 gmaleron wrote:
What's criminal is FW basically giving a middle finger to their International customer base and offering no explanation for it. And this is a clear case of price gouging (literally had price increases as high as 73%) so I don't buy the whole inflation, export import tax ect. excuses. When more people start going to recasters they are more than morally justified in doing so, FW clearly doesn't give a damn about customer issues or feedback (considering they have been deleting comments about it on Facebook and blatantly ignoring people's problems with it) so why the hell should potential customers care? FW created this situation so if there is any fallout or increase in sales for recasters it is on them and them alone.

No, that's not criminal. It's their perogative as creater of the intellectual property. Stealing intellectual property is never morally justifiable. If we were talking about water or flour or something you might have a point, but this is a luxury product. You don't need it. If you don't like their pricing then simply don't buy it.

You think what you want and people who have FW armies and don't live in the UK like myself will think another way, your so-called moral High Ground is your opinion and yours alone. They want to steal from and rip off their International customers? I see no problem with them returning the favor, as of now I've only debated doing it but seeing as I have 8400 points of Krieg already chances are I'm just going to stop supporting them, however if people want to go through recasters I give them a thumbs up.

You are correct FW can do what they want since they are a private business, at the same time though potential and current consumers of their product or of the hobby in general have the right to spend their money how they see fit, and thanks to FWs over the top price hikes and horrible customer service since the raise they are/will be the ones responsible and them alone for the increase in recaster business

They aren't stealing! Choosing a price you don't like for a LUXURY is not stealing.

Look, I understand the frustration. But no amount of moral gymnastics make what recasters do ok. It just stinks of entitlement frankly.

You have a right to spend your money as you see fit, so long as you aren't funding people who are stealing the intellectual property of another person.

 Stux wrote:
They aren't stealing! Choosing a price you don't like for a LUXURY is not stealing.

Look, I understand the frustration. But no amount of moral gymnastics make what recasters do ok. It just stinks of entitlement frankly.

You have a right to spend your money as you see fit, so long as you aren't funding people who are stealing the intellectual property of another person.

What's luxury to them is literally robbery for their International customer base, throwing whatever term in front of it doesn't change the fact just because they can do it legally or give it morality. And it's not entitlement when out of the blue every single product of theirs has an additional charge not related to currency exchange, import export ect. for no reason and basically saying hey International customer base screw you, it's a problem.

To be honest they had just come out with an actual statement explaining why they did it instead of blindsiding people and then turtling up guaranteed would have put a lot of people's mind at ease, but they went the opposite direction. Bottom line, they want to screw over their customers, I have no issue with people wanting to do it to them at that point they're just getting a taste of their own medicine.

Regardless of the "moral issue" surrounding recasts, the reality is that it is a growing industry, the quality is getting better and better, and it has never been easier to access these models. This is not going to change,and as time goes on, recasts will only improve in quality. People want to play the game with the models of their choice and will buy them as cheaply as possible to do so. 3D printers will make this even easier in a few years time.

GW and FW can choose to do a few different things here - they can raise prices even more to make up for lost sales, they can lower prices to entice buyers to purchase from them, or they can ignore the whole issue and let the community deal with it. In a way, all of these things are already happening to various degrees,especially with FW.

What FW is doing is something that I don't think many people can logically defend. It's price gouging, plain and simple. If GW is going to promote moves like this, community backlash is to be expected, and players will look elsewhere for nearly similar quality at a much lower price.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Stux wrote:
They aren't stealing! Choosing a price you don't like for a LUXURY is not stealing.

Look, I understand the frustration. But no amount of moral gymnastics make what recasters do ok. It just stinks of entitlement frankly.

You have a right to spend your money as you see fit, so long as you aren't funding people who are stealing the intellectual property of another person.

What's luxury to them is literally robbery for their International customer base, throwing whatever term in front of it doesn't change the fact just because they can do it legally or give it morality. And it's not entitlement when out of the blue every single product of theirs has an additional charge not related to currency exchange, import export ect. for no reason and basically saying hey International customer base screw you, it's a problem.

To be honest they had just come out with an actual statement explaining why they did it instead of blindsiding people and then turtling up guaranteed would have put a lot of people's mind at ease, but they went the opposite direction. Bottom line, they want to screw over their customers, I have no issue with people wanting to do it to them at that point they're just getting a taste of their own medicine.

'Literally robbery'

Please, stop it! I can't take any more hyperbole!

What FW is doing here is what many, many other companies worldwide do and setting their own exchange rate. They just happen to have done it now in the digital age so every man and his dog knows about it and have come online to bitch about it, and in some people's cases seemingly even promote piracy due to it.

 Stux wrote:

'Literally robbery'
Please, stop it! I can't take any more hyperbole!

You can put lipstick on a pig and call it whatever you want but at the end of the day it's still a pig.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Stux wrote:

'Literally robbery'
Please, stop it! I can't take any more hyperbole!

You can put lipstick on a pig and call it whatever you want but at the end of the day it's still a pig.

What are you even talking about about?

Seriously, are comparing someone upping price of some little toy soldiers to "the crime of taking or attempting to take anything of value by force, threat of force, or by putting the victim in fear."

Get a grip!

Nah I'm not that triggered, just saying how it is. I also find it a bit humorous how you're little morals are getting all offended over those same little plastic/resin soldiers you speak of.

 gmaleron wrote:
Nah I'm not that triggered, just saying how it is. I also find it a bit humorous how you're little morals are getting all offended over those same little plastic/resin soldiers you speak of.

Hey now. This isn't about 'triggering' and say I'm being 'offended', so don't start that crap. Just makes it look like you've run out of valid arguments to be honest.

Yep...as someone who's already stated my dislike of Forgeworld, their prices are their prices. Stating again and again "it's stealing!", "it's robbery!" etc. doesn't make that correct. That is laughable, and not a little concerning if the chemical firings in your brain actually link raise in prices with actual theft.

Change your argument to "that's lame", or "that's selfish", or "that's pride!" etc. if you wish, but stop pretending a price raise is theft. It's categorically not. Quit buying FW and go buy recasts, do whatever you wish - just stop shouting nonsense.

 Elbows wrote:
Yep...as someone who's already stated my dislike of Forgeworld, their prices are their prices. Stating again and again "it's stealing!", "it's robbery!" etc. doesn't make that correct. That is laughable, and not a little concerning if the chemical firings in your brain actually link raise in prices with actual theft.

Change your argument to "that's lame", or "that's selfish", or "that's pride!" etc. if you wish, but stop pretending a price raise is theft. It's categorically not. Quit buying FW and go buy recasts, do whatever you wish - just stop shouting nonsense.

Not shouting whatever I want and considering how these price hikes only target international customers to us overseas/many of us it feels like extortion and or theft. Perhaps utilize common sense in your train of thought and see it from the point of view of people who have been royally screwed over after investing alot into FW.

Look, screw morals, it doesn't matter. What matters is that Forgeworld prices were bad, and overpriced, which was originally very poorly received by the community. The prices were ridiculous then, and then they were raised. On a business level, that is literally suicide, destroying whatever tiny portion of the community bought Forgeworld regularly, and leaving behind shattered public image much less than what was managed to be built from before. You cannot tell me charging 100 dollars for 10 little army men is reasonable. Consumers will seek the lowest expense, and if the incentive is greater than the moral qualms, which is this case it is, as mostly now, recasters offer like a 70% discount. In this case, Forgeworld will kill itself unless they bring prices down to Earth.

lliu wrote:
Look, screw morals, it doesn't matter. What matters is that Forgeworld prices were bad, and overpriced, which was originally very poorly received by the community. The prices were ridiculous then, and then they were raised. On a business level, that is literally suicide, destroying whatever tiny portion of the community bought Forgeworld regularly, and leaving behind shattered public image much less than what was managed to be built from before. You cannot tell me charging 100 dollars for 10 little army men is reasonable. Consumers will seek the lowest expense, and if the incentive is greater than the moral qualms, which is this case it is, as mostly now, recasters offer like a 70% discount. In this case, Forgeworld will kill itself unless they bring prices down to Earth.

I agree with 90% of what you are saying here. The prices are unreasonable. It may (possibly) cause serious problems for Forgeworld as a brand. I'm not certain of that part, as I don't know what proportion of sales are international, and what proportion of international sales are from whales who aren't particularly phased by it. But we will see.

All I'm saying is that it's there perogative to set prices that damage themselves, just as it's the consumers perogative to not give them money. But nothing justifies buying counterfeit merchandise. If you don't like the price then give your money to someone selling a different game legitimately. Or at least original 3rd party sculpts you can use to play this game.

Funding recasters hurts all tabletop wargaming. Not just GW, but everyone trying to make and sell tabletop games.

Ok, so first off, I would just like to split the moral/illegal argument.
Recasting is technically an illegal practice.
The end users choice to purchase a model from an alternative source is a moral choice. (in some cases, people don’t even realise they are buying a recast until they get the physical product – which doesn’t help).


So, for everyone on this website, and in this discussion, the choice on whether or not to buy from a recaster is a moral one, as, purchasing a product is not illegal around the world. It is advised against though.
For example, the official stance in the UK for buying counterfeit products is

The National Fraud Intelligence Bureau advises consumers to avoid buying fake goods because "you're helping the trader to break the law".
The bureau, which is affiliated to the City of London Police, also claims:
 "Many fraudsters use the proceeds from selling counterfeit goods to fund drug dealing or other types of organised crime"
 Counterfeiting "contributes to job losses because genuine manufacturers are unable to match prices charged by rogue traders"
 "Genuine manufacturers are deprived of any profit"
The organisation urges people to report any instances of fraud.

The stance in the US is different I believe, where they have a “ It is illegal to purchase counterfeit goods” stance. However, whether this is a generic “law” or in effect only in certain states, I’m not sure.

The main problem we, as GW/FW consumers have, is that GW/FW is a monopoly in regards to its game and models. We pay to play their game, and as a result of them owning the game, they have no competition in regards to the models and thus the “capitalist market” doesn’t work. This results in prices only ever going one way, as there is no need for it to be otherwise.

It is wrong for the recasters to be doing what they do, and, each time someone buys from them, it justifies them continuing, in a self-fulfilling circle. However, if you put the choice to a normal consumer of £10 or £80 for essentially the exact same product, morals be damned, 95% of customers will choose the cheaper option – especially in the current financial climate.

I was personally looking at the idea of picking up a FW Storm Eagle. This will cost me £105 from FW. Alternatively, I could pay £44 and have it shipped to me from the US. To someone getting into the hobby, this is going to seem like a complete no brainer, morally right, or not. Personally, I’ve put the choice off for a while.

GW/FW need to do a few things if they want to seriously make an impact on preventing this.
1. They need to re-evaluate their pricing structure and work out if lowering their prices will drive enough sales to cover the initial price drop (i.e. If a model costs £50,000 to design and make, will they sell more at a lower price to make the 50k back, or do they need to stick to less sales at a higher cost).
2. Legally go after recasters publicly.
3. Work with the ITC and ETC etc on a way to outlaw recasts and 3rd party models in events. Sure, they have a “GW model only” policy at their own events, but, their events are simply a side note to things like the LVO, NOVA, ETC team events and a lot of other big events around the world. Of course, this would require some form of compromise from GW in regards to the cost of the hobby.

Until things like that happen, until we see people (creaters and users alike) penalised for using “unofficial” models, most people are going to look at the option (if presented with it in the first place) and make a choice, that usually, won’t be in the best interest of the game, but in theirs.

Unfortunately, I do not see GW making said changes anytime soon. 3rd party casters create a lot of options for the players that aren’t currently supplied by GW/FW, and where they have no intention of doing so themselves. This ranges from custom Chapter shoulder pads, OOP models and kits and other conversion pieces. These options, like it or not, also help drive GW sales. If I want to convert some Imperial Guard, chances are I’ll buy the Guard kit, and then buy a 3rd party selection of conversion bits to do so. Sure, GW have lost out in a sense, but, they also haven’t as they sold the original kit themselves. Most 3rd party sites, I believe, off alternatives to original GW kits, sometimes alongside essentially straight up copies.

What a thread.

The main point I see though is... If your recast is done right, and painted, the only way to tell if a model is a recast is to cut it apart?

Seems hard to police. And it will force people to paint?

I don’t have any recast models at the moment, so I can’t answer that – but, I presume that is the case, yes. If the recast is “perfect” and then painted I don’t know how you’d tell the difference from the outside 100% of the time.

I've bought enough models from ebay, I honestly can't be sure I don't have any recast. So I'll just keep playing with what I have.

Oh and incidentally legal wise - In France you can face a steep fine and jail term for buying counterfeit goods, while in Italy you can be fined. Nowhere else it seems is it explicitly illegal to buy counterfeit goods, however prolific buyers can be targeted under other laws.

You cant claim stealing IP is wrong and then protect a company who's profited from it for 30+ years.

If the world were so black and white then you're gonna be boycotting more than just forgeworld and chinacasters.

We live in an immoral society led by immoral governments that benefits immoral companies. This "holier than thou" attitude to recasts just reeks of hypocrisy.

Process wrote:
You cant claim stealing IP is wrong and then protect a company who's profited from it for 30+ years.

If the world were so black and white then you're gonna be boycotting more than just forgeworld and chinacasters.

We live in an immoral society led by immoral governments that benefits immoral companies. This "holier than thou" attitude to recasts just reeks of hypocrisy.

False equivalence.

Basing an idea on something else is not the same as counterfeiting it wholesale down to every minute detail.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More to the point, two wrongs don't make a right.

I want to make it clear here that I'm not supporting GW's practices, it's about being anti-recaster as far as my position.

 Stux wrote:

Process wrote:
You cant claim stealing IP is wrong and then protect a company who's profited from it for 30+ years.

If the world were so black and white then you're gonna be boycotting more than just forgeworld and chinacasters.

We live in an immoral society led by immoral governments that benefits immoral companies. This "holier than thou" attitude to recasts just reeks of hypocrisy.

False equivalence.

Basing an idea on something else is not the same as counterfeiting it wholesale down to every minute detail.

And yet both IP breach and counterfeiting are against the the law?

Saw you're post edit.. thats fine, be against recasters, just the whole aggressive "protect your hobby" bs thats going on at the moment needs to stop.

Process wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Process wrote:
You cant claim stealing IP is wrong and then protect a company who's profited from it for 30+ years.

If the world were so black and white then you're gonna be boycotting more than just forgeworld and chinacasters.

We live in an immoral society led by immoral governments that benefits immoral companies. This "holier than thou" attitude to recasts just reeks of hypocrisy.

False equivalence.

Basing an idea on something else is not the same as counterfeiting it wholesale down to every minute detail.

And yet both IP breach and counterfeiting are against the the law?

What specifically are you referring to? If GW have breached copyright I'll denounce that too. Doesn't make buying from recasters ok.

Look gents. Whether you have morality in this or not, I have it to myself.

The point is, FW raising their prices is robbery TO ME.

I'm protecting my wallet in what little ways I can in this hobby lol

 KingCorpus wrote:
Look gents. Whether you have morality in this or not, I have it to myself.

The point is, FW raising their prices is robbery TO ME.

I'm protecting my wallet in what little ways I can in this hobby lol

While I take issue with the term robbery, I'll concede that this argument over the morality and legality of recasters is a side issue.

I feel I've detracted enough from the legitimate issues people have with Forgeworld pricing at this point, so will bow out of the debate here.