Do We Eldar Players Have Legitimate Beef Over The Wraithknight?

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**Galef**

Bharring wrote:
The fluff is very consistant about Necrons being much more advanced than Eldar in tech.

It seems like, on a scale from 1 to 10:

1. Kroot
2. IoM on backwater planets, IG, PDFs
3. IoM best tech - Mechnicum, Assasins, etc
4. Tau
6. DAoT

Pre-fall Eldar dialed it up to 11.

Necrons sit comfortably at a 16.

Indeed, but also keep in mind the Necrons are so old that much of their tech is now failing. This is why some Lords are coo-coo for cocoa puffs and what some Tomb Worlds still haven't full awoken despite being disturbed. Just food for thought

-

**ClockworkZion**

Galef wrote:
Indeed, but also keep in mind the Necrons are so old that much of their tech is now failing. This is why some Lords are coo-coo for cocoa puffs and what some Tomb Worlds still haven't full awoken despite being disturbed. Just food for thought

Most of their tech is just fine, it's just the Necrons themselves that range from "perfectly functional" to "crazy nutters who think they're still flesh" to "robot zombies who want to eat your flesh". Even then their bodies work fine, it's their minds that are the problem.

Eldar were sitting on some tech that is just as old as the Crons are, though since they murderorgied a god into existance they basically lost most of the REALLY good stuff they had access to. Still better than most races, but lets not forget that most Craftworld stuff is made of wraithbone which is the material of the warp sung into material existance to fit a kind of template while the Dark Eldar seem to have access to most of the old tech (plus a bunch of perversions of it they murderorgied their way into using).

Basically both are still yonks past humanity but they both have weaknesses too. Necrons are largely losing their minds meaning they might not even remember all the stuff they actually have, and Eldar kind of lost their best toys due to snorting too much warp dust and trying to be Space Patrick Bateman.

**Bharring**

Dark Eldar lost most of their old tech too - perhaps more than even Craftworlders - because most Eldar items required psykic energy to use (as an interface, not a power source). Also, most of their building materials were created from the Warp. As Dark Eldar don't use the Warp at all anymore, they had to rebuild from the ground up.

Now, they should still have the knowledge and documentation on the good stuff, it's mostly materials sciences and engineering that they need to redo.

**ClockworkZion**

Moral of the story: don't murderorgy your whole race into extinction.

More on topic, I'd probably wait to see what CA does to the Wraithknight (especially since it's probably too late to write in about it and see it change for this update) and if it isn't fixed in this one, I'd look at providing GW with detailed, but polite and professional, feedback on the Wraithknight and it's balance in the game. Player feedback is shaping this new edition and only by addressing the problems that remain unchanged can we help guide the game to a better place.

**Vaktathi**

peteralmo wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
The WK should be about a hundred points cheaper, and maybe some tweaks to weapons options.

That said, for a multitude of reasons, it's probably not super high on most people's lists of problems to solve. It does need a fix though.

Your last point is one I hear a lot, and one I'll never understand. GW is a huge company when compared against other companies within it's industry. Why is the narrative that they simply don't have the man power to analyze every unit so robust and dispersed so easily. They are a huge company, with a lot of resources at there disposal. My expectation is that before each chapter approved or even big FAQ, they should have analyzed every single unit in

the game they created and considered how they could better tweak said unit. And beyond that I just want brutal honesty and transparency from this company, almost always we get the exact opposite. Consider WOTC. When they update their banned and restricted lists, they include sentences similar to this: "when we banned X a few months ago we thought it would have Y effect and make Z healthier. We were wrong, it didn't have the desired effect, and

as such we are now unbanning X." I would love to read something like that from GW just once. Such as: "We understand a segment of the community wanted to see Dark Reapers points cost increase far more severely, but we feel comfortable with the adjustment we made." Or, "we understand the Wraithknight feels overcosted and underpowered given the newer knight class unit rule sets, however we still feel they shouldn't be adjusted (pretty awful

explanation but at least they admit people are having this consternation over the issue." Or God-forbid, "We felt this unit was so good and so over-represented in the recent past we are purposefully pricing it at a very noncompetitive rate."

GW absolutely can put a whole lot more effort into balancing and costing units. However, ultimately they see themselves as a model company selling a premium-grade product to collectors. They're rather open about that in their statements to shareholders. Despite their name, they don't consider themselves to actually be a gaming "workshop", the rules are there to assist in selling models, the game itself is ancillary to that. Hence, why we see the relatively poor efforts at balance. They really dont care about a balanced game, they care about cool models people will want to buy.

Also, historically, in terms of overall management, they've been a total incompetent shitshow that's only very recently started to turn around.

**Galef**

Vaktathi wrote:
GW absolutely can put a whole lot more effort into balancing and costing units. However, ultimately they see themselves as a model company selling a premium-grade product to collectors. They're rather open about that in their statements to shareholders. Despite their name, they don't consider themselves to actually be a gaming "workshop", the rules are there to assist in selling models, the game itself is ancillary to that. Hence, why we see the relatively poor efforts at balance. They really dont care about a balanced game, they care about cool models people will want to buy.

Also, historically, in terms of overall management, they've been a total incompetent shitshow that's only very recently started to turn around.

While this is certainly a valid version of the truth, it is very cynical. Many would argue that developing a balanced game is certainly the most effective method for selling those premium grade models. I think GW is finally starting to get that.
The reached out to the community for feedback, implemented some of it and their profits doubled. Coincidence?

-

**ClockworkZion**

Vaktathi wrote:
peteralmo wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
The WK should be about a hundred points cheaper, and maybe some tweaks to weapons options.

That said, for a multitude of reasons, it's probably not super high on most people's lists of problems to solve. It does need a fix though.

Your last point is one I hear a lot, and one I'll never understand. GW is a huge company when compared against other companies within it's industry. Why is the narrative that they simply don't have the man power to analyze every unit so robust and dispersed so easily. They are a huge company, with a lot of resources at there disposal. My expectation is that before each chapter approved or even big FAQ, they should have analyzed every single unit in

the game they created and considered how they could better tweak said unit. And beyond that I just want brutal honesty and transparency from this company, almost always we get the exact opposite. Consider WOTC. When they update their banned and restricted lists, they include sentences similar to this: "when we banned X a few months ago we thought it would have Y effect and make Z healthier. We were wrong, it didn't have the desired effect, and

as such we are now unbanning X." I would love to read something like that from GW just once. Such as: "We understand a segment of the community wanted to see Dark Reapers points cost increase far more severely, but we feel comfortable with the adjustment we made." Or, "we understand the Wraithknight feels overcosted and underpowered given the newer knight class unit rule sets, however we still feel they shouldn't be adjusted (pretty awful

explanation but at least they admit people are having this consternation over the issue." Or God-forbid, "We felt this unit was so good and so over-represented in the recent past we are purposefully pricing it at a very noncompetitive rate."
GW absolutely can put a whole lot more effort into balancing and costing units. However, ultimately they see themselves as a model company selling a premium-grade product to collectors. They're rather open about that in their statements to shareholders. Despite their name, they don't consider themselves to actually be a gaming "workshop", the rules are there to assist in selling models, the game itself is ancillary to that. Hence, why we see the relatively poor efforts at balance. They really dont care about a balanced game, they care about cool models people will want to buy.

Also, historically, in terms of overall management, they've been a total incompetent shitshow that's only very recently started to turn around.

This was definitely more true under Kirby's direction, but Roundtree's direction seems to be shifting the company to trying to make the game good first and using that to sell models instead of making good models and using them to sell themselves.

I mean, if it were Kirby's approach Primaris would be one of the best armies in the game right now just by merit of being the newest Marine thing. And instead most people find them incredibly limited and unbalanced (in a bad way) and barely where they feel regular Marines should be at, much less where the new guys should be.

Basically I'm saying that the game is shifting from being a platform to sell stuff by merit of being the new hotness and onto selling stuff based on what people want to play and addressing the stuff that doesn't sell at all by tweaking it so people want it instead of just nerfing everything that does sell to get it to sell instead.

**Reemule**

I think it would be fine at around 500 points for the most expensive options on it, Sunbeam cannon and Friendship shield.

**Vaktathi**

The game has definitely improved under Roundtree, but I think only by the abysmal standards of 6E and 7E where the game was a total clusterfark of an unplayable disaster and was quickly losing marketshare. I would find it hard to argue that 8E is fundamentally a better and more balanced game then 5E was when it came out a decade ago, and we still routinely get codex books where people can spot the garbage and gold with a casual glance.

GW is doing more talking to customers, which is good, but the results are limited thus far, at least from what I can see. Looking at their 2018 investor relations report, GW still first and foremost consider themselves a model and IP company, with the rules and games themselves meriting no discernible mention or consideration.

So yeah, they're better than they were during 2012-2017, undoubteldy so, but they're still a model, not a game, company first and foremost. Hence why rules issues and imbalances are still an ongoing thing with haphazard responses from GW.

**Torquar**

peteralmo wrote:
and really only being rivaled by necrons, with even they lagging behind a bit

HA!

**Slayer-Fan123**

Azmodaeus wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Except Drop Pods weren't ever broken.

Yea the top lists weren't all space marines with free drop pods.

No, the top lists were all free Razorbacks or Rhinos.

**Vaktathi**

Drop Pods were pretty heavily abused, lots of power lists used free drop pods, not all were Rhinos/Razorbacks, and the DP helped make a lot of other stuff broken too (gravcents). 35pts for risk-free deepstrike on almost any infantry unit, that allowed you to bring on units turn 1 (when normal DS couldnt come in until turn 2 at the earliest), that then became a scoring AV12 stormbolter-pillbox for the rest of the game, was a wee bit cheap

**Bharring**

*obsec* scoring AV12.

Featured in a lot of pre-gladius Obsec Spam Marine lists, and did really well. Gladius did favor Razorbacks, but not the only use.

And that's just pods carrying Tacs. Podded DevCents were certainly huge. Skyhammer was terribly OP.

Pods were amazing in 6th and 7th.

**Orock**

Work stompa says hi

**Xenomancers**

Bharring wrote:
*obsec* scoring AV12.

Featured in a lot of pre-gladius Obsec Spam Marine lists, and did really well. Gladius did favor Razorbacks, but not the only use.

And that's just pods carrying Tacs. Podded DevCents were certainly huge. Skyhammer was terribly OP.

Pods were amazing in 6th and 7th.

Skyhammer wasn't at all OP - there is a reason people didn't try to squeeze it into gladius formations. Gotta remember this is in the time of Wraithknights for under 300 points...Drone net riptides combos (which could end skyhammer before it even got to shoot LOL and then in their shooting phase they will just ripple fire their secondary weapon and charge and kill anything that remains)....necron decurian with undeniable FNP (drop in and do 0 damage) and daemonic incursion (wow these grav cannons don't do gak against this army). The source of "skyhammer is OP" is pretty obvious. It could kill wraithknights on turn 1 if you won the roll to go first (before you could make the WK invisible and auto win the game).

7th edition is best forgotten - it was an absolute joke. No units should be paying the price for being OP in another eddition. WK should not cost more than a IK Crusader and on top of that - it needs buffs.

**Galef**

Reemule wrote:
I think it would be fine at around 500 points for the most expensive options on it, Sunbeam cannon and Friendship shield.

Just under 500pts and including Spirit stones "feels right"
The other 2 variants shouldn't be over 400ppm unless the shoulder guns are added.

-

**Xenomancers**

Galef wrote:
Reemule wrote:
I think it would be fine at around 500 points for the most expensive options on it, Sunbeam cannon and Friendship shield.

Just under 500pts and including Spirit stones "feels right"
The other 2 variants shouldn't be over 400ppm unless the shoulder guns are added.

-

Totally agree. Sword and board WK should be about the same price as a Galant. Which i think tops in at 370 with it's rocket launcher.

**Gitdakka**

You have compared the wraith knight to the imperial knigths and found it over costed. Hard to argue with that. But have you compared it to a gorkanaut? Those seem pretty balanced against each other to me. And riptides, where do they belong?

It's almost like there is two balance tiers of models that are not meant to coexist in the same game.

**ClockworkZion**

Vaktathi wrote:
The game has definitely improved under Roundtree, but I think only by the abysmal standards of 6E and 7E where the game was a total clusterfark of an unplayable disaster and was quickly losing marketshare. I would find it hard to argue that 8E is fundamentally a better and more balanced game then 5E was when it came out a decade ago, and we still routinely get codex books where people can spot the garbage and gold with a casual glance.

GW is doing more talking to customers, which is good, but the results are limited thus far, at least from what I can see. Looking at their 2018 investor relations report, GW still first and foremost consider themselves a model and IP company, with the rules and games themselves meriting no discernible mention or consideration.

So yeah, they're better than they were during 2012-2017, undoubteldy so, but they're still a model, not a game, company first and foremost. Hence why rules issues and imbalances are still an ongoing thing with haphazard responses from GW.

We also have to remember that while Roundtree heads the company, he still has to answer to a board of directors. The same board of directors who kept putting Kirby in charge despite how the customer base would basically revolt over it, so such mission statements might not be changable, even if he's working to try and curb such a mindset in the studio itself.

**Reemule**

I'd place all of the Riptide/Wraith knight/Gorkanuts/Stompas/knights in the same boat at being somewhere between 350-650 points.

With the wrathknight, It doesn't feel very strong to me in even its most point heavy configuration, the Sunbeam and shield, with Starcannon shoulder mounts.

But some of the situation has to be judged on the support these models have. A Gallent knight isn't that impressive alone. A gallant knight with Hawksround, Rotate Ion shields, Fist of death, and clock stuff on the second floor stratagems and CP to use them is a completely different matter.

The Riptide, Wrathknight, and Ork entries don't have a 10th the support that Imperial Knights have, and Chaos is only slightly better than the xenos as it profits from the plethora of options Imperial Knights brings to the table.

**bullyboy**

570pts for a WK with suncannon/shield and 2 starcannons.....errr, that's a flat no. For starters that suncannon needs to be Heavy 12 not Heavy 2D6. The 5+ invuln is nice though, but it still needs to babysat by a Farseer with Fortune which tacks on another 115pts

**koooaei**

It's called 40k balance. It's measured in how many killa kanz it can stomp.

**Delvarus Centurion**

Desubot wrote:
Its a cool model.

it suffers from its crimes in 7th as does the centurions

but like the centurions and imperial knights it shouldn't exist in normal 40k

the scale creep and eggs in a basket was and is getting out of hand.

basically game playablity vs fluff or whatever.

The 'shouldn't exist' thing bothers me. Necrons and Tau shouldn't exist to me as I'm a 2nd edition player, but the more GW adds to the game the better it is. New units and models have always been released, even since beginning of 40k, they update the lore. People that say 'this shouldn't exist' ignore the history of 40k. Units are released all the time even units that are not new and are new psysical models with old 'reestablished' lore. Its better for Eldar as well, they hit their zenith in technology, they've never really had a reason to update their technology, what works works and has worked for millions of years.

**nurgle86**

Orock wrote:
Work stompa says hi

While I can agree and understand that its lamentable that a centrepiece model is not great in the eldar book the last thing I think GW should be doing is improving anything in the CW book. The Aeldari forces as a whole including all types are capable of putting down the most powerful list in the game right now. The designers have just got it wrong again because a Ynarri/Drukhari(Vect)/CW shining spears combo is pretty close to unbeatable. I'm not salty about it, I think its awesome that models like shining spears that saw virtually no play in 7th are now amazing!

40k is cyclical to varying degrees but the one thing that hasn't changed is that eldar have been top of or close to the top of the pile for almost the entire 40k history. My advice is if you are playing to win forget about the wraithknight for anything else go and buy that centre piece model and enjoy it. One day it might be great again.

But my Stompa is still giving y'all the middle finger

**Shadenuat**

Ynnari, Drukhari & Vect should have nothing to do with quite a few CW units being bad or mediocre. Just like IG existence should't mean pure SM Codex can be left out as whatever.

**greatbigtree**

From a pure marketing perspective, changing what’s powerful from edition to edition encourages chasing the meta-dragon which drives sales. People own WK already, and Scatter Bikes, so make them weak to drive the sales of other stuff.

In 7th, my friend played Jet-Seers, Scatterbikes, Wraith Knights, and Warp Spiders. Or, he’d play the Wraith Formation with all the D goodness with 2 or 3 WK.

He’s a bit of a power gamer, and that’s ok because I enjoy the challenge. One of my favourite opponents... but I don’t think I’ve seen the WK on the table this edition. He chases the meta, and is currently maining his Imp Knights. Shifting the power base causes him to spend more money on GW product. He just bought one of the Big Knights and is probably going to buy some Junior Knights too. If WK spam had held, he probably wouldn’t have done that.

**Shadenuat**

It can also make people rage quit, go recasting, make newbies disappointed, and so on. When every unit in the Codex at least has a niche, there are more styles to play, and more units to try out, more models to buy. WoW-like meta changes are gak.

**ClockworkZion**

Shadenuat wrote:
It can also make people rage quit, go recasting, make newbies disappointed, and so on. When every unit in the Codex at least has a niche, there are more styles to play, and more units to try out, more models to buy. WoW-like meta changes are gak.

It's less of a WoW-like meta change and more like DoTA or LoL style. Rotating meta to keep the game "fresh" and prevent all tactics boiling down to the same thing all the time.

That said, they've been doing less of an extreme version of that this edition and it looks like they're willing to move the game to being more balanced so people can instead build a list of whatever they want and go from there.

**Shadenuat**

"Keeping things fresh" was not what happened with WK though. If we to trust the leaks, GW management blatantly underpriced it to drive sales not listening to actual game designers, and then nerfed to oblivion to keep the face. Now we have what we have, and what we have is gak. All what is left is to wait for 9th edition 'dex.

**ClockworkZion**

Shadenuat wrote:
"Keeping things fresh" was not what happened with WK though. If we to trust the leaks, GW management blatantly underpriced it to drive sales not listening to actual game designers, and then nerfed to oblivion to keep the face. Now we have what we have, and what we have is gak. All what is left is to wait for 9th edition 'dex.

No, what there is to do is wait until Chapter Approved which we've seen does points adjustments and could bring the WK onto the table. This is no longer the game where you have to wait 5+ years to bring a model you like but is gak.

And again, the Kirby days are pretty much the dark ages of GW and we all know they sucked. The guy in charge isn't Kirby and doesn't hold Kirby's views very highly. That said, we do have a lot of the same dips on the board who are likely causing some problems, but let's not pretend that nothing has changed and that the game hasn't steadily been moving towards a better place than it was in the past.