Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Not sure if you're considering special characters yet, but dear lord Grimaldus needs help. All the problems of a Chaplain at twice the cost.

There's definitely a lot wrong with the Special Characters. Compare Calgar, who was already just an okay choice, to Abigail. It's silly how much more Abigail does at the cost of not really being much more expensive. Sicarius only buffs one type of unit in his special aura. Until Marine melee gets better, Khan is bad.

Quite frankly, and this is silly, the only Special character that works outside Calgar in the codex is Tigger and Shrike. Of course one of those is Raven Guard too.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Not sure if you're considering special characters yet, but dear lord Grimaldus needs help. All the problems of a Chaplain at twice the cost.

There's definitely a lot wrong with the Special Characters. Compare Calgar, who was already just an okay choice, to Abigail. It's silly how much more Abigail does at the cost of not really being much more expensive. Sicarius only buffs one type of unit in his special aura. Until Marine melee gets better, Khan is bad.

Quite frankly, and this is silly, the only Special character that works outside Calgar in the codex is Tigger and Shrike. Of course one of those is Raven Guard too.

Less nicknames would let us old folks who don't keep up on "the memes" to know who you're talking about a bit easier.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I can speak for the FW characters probably needing a slight price adjustment but they at least function okay-ish I guess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Not sure if you're considering special characters yet, but dear lord Grimaldus needs help. All the problems of a Chaplain at twice the cost.

There's definitely a lot wrong with the Special Characters. Compare Calgar, who was already just an okay choice, to Abigail. It's silly how much more Abigail does at the cost of not really being much more expensive. Sicarius only buffs one type of unit in his special aura. Until Marine melee gets better, Khan is bad.

Quite frankly, and this is silly, the only Special character that works outside Calgar in the codex is Tigger and Shrike. Of course one of those is Raven Guard too.

Less nicknames would let us old folks who don't keep up on "the memes" to know who you're talking about a bit easier.

Tigurius was a bad autocorrect, but I always refer to Abaddon as Abigail because it's fun.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Helbrecht is perfectly fine as he is TBH.

The Newman wrote:
Centurion Devastator's big problem isn't getting to their proper targets. The big problem with Centurion Devastators is that a base grunt costs more than a Dreadnaught.

Tactical Marines
As the backbone of most player's Marine collections the Tactical Marine has been sitting on a shelf for sometime now. Broadly speaking this has come down to a few things, most of which are tied to how 8th edition's mechanics have shaped the way players see the game. Without getting into some of the hyperbole I've collected, the feeback can be summarized thusly:
1. The unit suffers heavily from AP values as they basically don't get the full mileage out of the points they pay for having a good save2
2. Due to the unit's higher points cost the model count is lower but the volume of fire capable for the unit isn't higher to compensate for the lower number of models
3. The loss of morale protection and the introduction of CP have pushed the army into what is called "MSU" builds: minimum sized units in order to protect from morale losses (because the unit is generally destroyed before the first Astartes retreats) and ensure they can get as many command points as possible
4. Scouts are generally seen as being able to do the same job of Tactical Marines (namely holding objectives and picking off a few enemy models through bolter fire) at a decreased cost which allows for easier access to higher amounts of CP even without the use of allied detachments.

This had lead to a lot of discussion how these problems could be addressed, and while making the base price of the unit members could allow for more Astartes to be taken (some people claiming that they should cost less than 8 points each with basic wargear putting 100 Marines at less than 800 points) it must be noted that it doesn't fix the last problem: there is another unit who can basically do the same job as a Tactical Marine squad, but even cheaper. As such I dug a little deeper to try and get a feel for the sort of things people feel the unit needs to be worth taking instead as a troop choice in more lists:
1. While being a change that basically fits all the Astartes in the army, people want to feel the extra points they pay for armour are worth something, leading to one example of a rule that could be added being presented as an example of the sort of mechanic they hope to see in lieu of something like a significant points cut: "Transhuman Physiology: Astartes are capable of weathering the most deadly firepower seen and fight on through the most grevious of wounds that would fell even the stoutest of humans. Against attacks with a Strength characteristic of 8 or less treat all AP values as being 1 worse than they are to a minimum of 0, and all Damage characteristics as being 1 worse to a minimum of 1. If these values are determined randomly first determine their value then decrease the result by 1."

A mechanic that works in a manner similar to this basically creates a feeling to most players that the armour save is actually worth the points paid for it while also allowing for some difference between units like Sisters of Battle or Inquisition in power armour from needing to pay as many points for the same benefit since they could effectively be cheaper in terms of points. And while it could stuff benefit units like Scouts, the real benefit is for models with 3+ or 2+ Save characteristics as they'd be able to use their full save more often.

2. A lot of ways of "fixing" the potential damage output of a Tactical Squad have been bandied about ranging from Rapid Fire 2 bolters being standard to more detailed ones, but there were two that really stood out: giving bolters -1AP and giving the Tactical Marines a mechanic that allows them to have a greater amount of firepower.

The first portion is undoubtedly one of the stronger changes for the army, and could even present the need for a small point increase on bolt weapons that lack an AP value other than 0 (likely about a point each) depending on, but essentially is presented as a way to add "quality" to offset enemy army "quantity". Naturally this would mean the bolt gun and bolt rifle would have very similar roles, and one proposed method of handling this was to give the bolt rife an additional point of strength so that it is better against T4 and T5 models than the regular bolter is.

The second change that stood out was a way for increasing the unit's firepower, akin to the Horus Heresy legion's Fury of the Legion rule. The general idea for such a mechanic is that the unit has to trade something for the ability to shoot twice and could work something like: "Fury of the Chapter: If this unit has not moved in its preceding movement phase or ends its movement within 3" of an objective marker it may make a second shooting attack immediately following resolution of the first during the shooting phase. This shooting attack may be made against different targets than the first shooting attack."

The first possible change of course benefits units like Scouts just as much as it does other Astartes, but the second possible change ensures that the roles of Scouts and Marines become a lot more varied on the table. Tactical Marines become supporting fire units who specialize in holding objectives whole Scouts can remain cheaper and focused on harassing back line units or protecting other units by forming defensive lines against assaulting units or units that specialize in attacking after coming from reserve.

3. Generally speaking in this edition the game has had a large increase of allies used in armies less for the purposes of thematic combination or to provide much needed support in an area the army is normally weak in (such as providing a melee focused ally for T'au), but almost entirely for providing enough Command Points to fund the use of stratagems. Without a change in how those work the only real way to change this for smaller model count armies would be to include a bonus for only taking <Chapter> detachments, much like how the Dark Eldar gain a bonus for running armies of only Patrol detachments but instead tied to a keyword like Astartes.

Morale, of course, is a different aspect that is shrinking units down to their smallest size and assuming the goal isn't to limit these for armies that have smaller model counts (by, say, limiting them to a single model lost to morale per turn) the possibility of something like ignoring the first model lost each turn for the purposes of morale might work.

In short the changes people have said to be looking for aren't many but are focused on making the durability and damage output of a squad that costs around as much as three Imperial Guard Infantry Squads feel like it's a true threat to most things instead of a speed bump that it better replaced with the cheaper Scout unit.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Centurion Devastator's big problem isn't getting to their proper targets. The big problem with Centurion Devastators is that a base grunt costs more than a Dreadnaught.

I'd say both are definite problems.

The Newman wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Centurion Devastator's big problem isn't getting to their proper targets. The big problem with Centurion Devastators is that a base grunt costs more than a Dreadnaught.

I'd say both are definite problems.

All three of mine are carrying the Cyclone/Heavy Bolter combo, so I might be biased on the range issue.

On the other hand, a base Centurion costing more than a base Dreadnaught is insane regardless of it's weapon load. Resolving any issues with getting it into range isn't going to help with that hanging over the unit.

Edit: That might have come across as overly dismissive. All I'm saying is that I think one of those two problems is a lot bigger than the other.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
We've basically well established that the vanilla codex is rather...weak at best. And in the interest of giving GW detailed feedback in hopes that their eventual update to the army comes around I had to ask myself "what would it take to bring this army from being balanced against the index to being balanced against the other armies in the game?"
 
Let's leave point changes off the table since those are likely coming in Chapter Approved. No, let's talk rules. 
 
First off, Chapter Tactics should apply to every model with the <Chapter> rule save for Servitors. Just because someone is piloting or gunning in a tank doesn't mean he doesn't forget how to fight like a member of his chapter. This is basically an automatic change for most people, but let's go past that and look at all the chapter tactics as well.
 
The adjustments I feel could help here is making the chapter tactic two parts. The first benefiting the army as a whole, the second which encourages specific builds for the army to both encourage different flavors of Marines to approach the codex differently and bring out a flavor that fits the lore of the army.

The first draft of rules: 

Spoiler:

Ultramarines: +1 Leadership; Infantry, Biker and Dreadnoughts may still fire after falling back at -1.
 
Not much I could really see to change this one. The army is well balanced in terms of benefits and allows players to be a bit more aggressive with less penalty. Honestly this is one I'd leave alone since it works, even if it's not the automatic best option in the book (not counting Guilliman as a bonus to this of course).
 
White Scars: +2" Advance and Charge (this still means a +8" Turbo Boost); Units can charge in a turn they fell back
 
Increased charge range lets these guys be more likely to hit and run more often and promotes these guys to the hit and run army.
 
Imperial Fists: Enemy units don't benefit from cover; Bolt weapons generate additional shots on a hit roll of 6+ (these additional hits don't generate futher hits).
 
The bolter masters are back basically. This basically makes Imperial Fists the best choice for shooting armies, but pushes them towards being more heavily focused on bolters. Naturally this means the Fortification bonus would be a stratagem instead since it's less likely to even show up in most games but flavorful so shouldn't go away completely.
 
Black Templars: Reroll failed charges; Infantry, Biker and Dreadnought models gain +1 Attack on a turn they charge, were charged or perform a Heroic Intervention.
 
With other melee based armies getting bonuses to their actual combat, it only felt right that the OG Power Armoured Horde gets one of their own, and making it so that a Crusader Squad can swing up to 61 times if they're running around at full size (20 models with chainswords = 40 attacks, +20 for a first turn of combat = 60 attacks, +1 for Sword Brother = 61 total). Basically if you want to Black Tide this would be the ultimate bonus for doing so: a bucket of dice. 
 
Salamanders: Re-roll single hit and wound roll per unit each time it shoots and fights; flamer weapons roll two dice and take the highest to determine the number of shots they fire
 
We all know Salamanders as the masters of having well crafted wargear and burning people alive. This would make flamers more effective for them without getting too silly about it.
 
Raven Guard: Ignore charge penalties; Infantry models who haven't moved this turn count as being in cover, Infantry models already in cover who haven't moved this turn gain an additional +1 to their cover save.
 
More reliable charging through terrain to give them a feeling of being ambush specialists (since you usually ambush out of terrain you were hidden in) while changes would need to be made to the CT if the entire army can benefit from the rule to keep the Raven Guard from turning into the best option for running tanks in the codex.
 
Iron Hands: 6+ to ignore lost wounds; Never lose more than 1 model due to a failed morale check
 
Basically their hard to remove nature only becomes even harder. With even their vehicles getting a chance to shrug off wounds an Iron Hands army would be the sturdiest choice in the codex by far.
 
Now naturally the changes wouldn't be limited to just that, so let's keep going.
 
First, to adjust the Imperial Fists strategem:
Siege Specialists: 2 CP, Use this Stratagem before an Imperial Fists unit attacks in the shooting or fight phase. Until the end of the phase the unit may reroll all to hit, to wound rolls and damage rolls against models with the Building keyword.
 
Simple, clean and makes the army really good at cracking a building, but at a cost (2 CP due to it rerolling everything against buildings and making it more likely to turn fortifications into rubble with some good rolls).
 
Now let's make some fixes on the Warlord Traits:
 
The Imperium's Sword: Re-roll failed charges for your Warlord; +1 attack if you charged or made a Heroic Intervention
 
If we're giving out bonuses for being aggressive with your warlord, we might as well go full in and make it work on Heroic Interventions too.
 
Iron Resolve: +1 wound; ignore lost wounds on a roll of a 6, Iron Hands ignore wounds on a roll of a 5 or a 6 instead.
 
Biggest fix here is making it so Iron Hands don't just ignore it because they already have half the bonus.
 
Adept of the Codex (Ultramarines): Once per game, if your warlord is alive you may roll a die for each Command Point spent on a Stratagem, on a 5+ you regain that Command Point.
 
Infinite command point regeneration is a cancer in the game right now and if we're making adjustments we might as well include the few nerfs the army needs too.
 
I can't comment on Psychic Powers as much as I'd like as I'm not as well versed in using them this editon so I'll let someone else fill in on this and give some ideas how we can adjust what we have to be less "pick X and Y and ignore the rest".
 
Now I can comment on wargear a bit though, and will:
 
Stalker bolt rifle: Either Heavy 2 OR allow it to target models like a sniper rifle. If given both benefits it'd need a points bump and I'd rather see it be the army's way of having powered armour snipers or be a weapon for pumping out higher quality of shots from a static position.
 
Flamestorm gauntlets (shooting): 18" range. Basically it'd have torrent levels of range and make it an actual threat instead of something that can never quite waddle into range.
 
Heavy Plasma incinerator: Heavy 2. Not a big change, but it'd actually be worth dropping extra points on using this way.
 
Bolt pistols (on Primaris Models): just make these all Heavy Bolt Pistols. There is no point in giving the faction a unique bolt pistol that matches the bolt rifle if almost no one uses it (especially since we can see the bolt pistol on Primaris models is different than regular bolt pistols).
 
Terminator armour (all types): Reduce damage from weapons by 1 (to a minimum of 1). D2 weapons keeping these guys on the shelf? Being able to treat those as D1 weapons would go a long way to making Terminators likely to stick around a lot longer.

Second draft:

Spoiler:

Alright, so I started this thing so I might as well go through everything then to get some discussion going about the codex in whole. I'm going to avoid anything that essentially could just get cheaper (from my viewpoint at least) as a fix. The ultimate goal of this will always remain a submission to GW on why the community is neglecting so much of the book's options, what could change about them to make them a viable option for most players, and generally the point is to get away from just making the army cheaper and cheaper until we start looking like a Guard army with better wargear.
 
There are two main goals I have for this whole submission:
1. Present a method in which an elite army like Space Marines may be reasonably balanced against other armies, particularly horde armies, while keeping in mind that many changes made here will apply to other armies here when taking into considering wargear or the base mechanics of Marines. Many buffs could end up buffing other armies and it could easilly defeat the purpose of the buff if it leaves the army unable to reach a balanced state within the game.
2. Give each chapter in the codex a faction bonus that provides benefits that every unit can enjoy without imbalancing the game while also giving each a specialization bonus that rewards the choosing of certain wargear or unit types creating distinct types of armies within the framework of the greater codex. 
 
To kick things off, let's go back over those Chapter Tactics again, shall we? Don't worry, this isn't a rehash but rather an update.
 
Now I've gotten some feedback about these already which has helped me refine the rules a bit more. Each will be a two part bonus to the faction, the first something any unit can enjoy, the second a more focused bonus for specific models or weapons to create an army specialization that will allow each chapter to have a disctinct playstyle from each other if a player builds towards it. I want to start with these first because it creates a picture in your mind on how each change might affect one chapter more than another.
 
Chapter Tactics: If your army is Battle-forged models with the <Chapter> keyword in a Space Marines detachement gain a Chapter Tactic as long as every unit in that detachment is drawn from the same Chapter.
 
It's a small change to the way the chapter tactics work, but it's a change every Space Marine player can say should apply. It opens the army up to a lot more flexibility and makes vehicles worth taking knowing that you can kit them to work like the rest of your army. 
 
Ultramarines: Codex Discipline: Ultramarines units never lose more than a single model due to a failed morale test. Models with the Character, Dreadnought, or Vehicle keywords instead gain +1 Leadership. Ultramarines units may shoot in the same turn in which they Fall Back.
 
The change here is to encourage Ultramarine units to form larger units due to a lower fear of morale as well as giving single model units greater protection against effects that target leadership. The penalty for falling back and shooting was removed to coinicide with the previous change to encourage Ultramarine armies to be aggressive in their approach as they can get stuck in with less fear of morale and then step back and open fire with all barrels.
 
White Scars: Lightning Assault: Whenever a White Scars unit Advances, Charges or Turbo-boosts it moves an additional 2" in addition to the distance rolled (turbo-boosting models move the full 6" plus the additional 2" for a full 8" instead of rolling). Models with the Biker, Infantry or Dreadnought rule may charge on a turn they Fall Back at no penalty. Models with the Vehicle keyword (to include Vehicle models with the Dreadnought keyword) treat their weapons as assault weapons during a turn in which they advanced (ex. Rapid Fire 1 becomes Assault 1, Heavy 3 becomes Heavy 3).
 
The biggest change here is making the army faster overall. The White Scars are known for modifying even their tanks to go faster and it didn't make any sense that they should be going slower. Additionally, as a chapter that basically hits the enemy as they drive through them the chapter isn't known for slowing down, making the bonus to their charges something that just fits naturally. Generally speaking this is the army that moves the fastest, and can slam into the enemy multiple times to kill it making it so they can keep something tied up on your opponent's turn before breaking free, shooting with your army's suport elements and then hitting that unit again.
 
Imperial Fists: Siege Masters: Enemy units do not recieve benefit to their saving throws for being in cover against attacks made by Imperial Fists models, furthermore Imperial Fists re-roll all to-wound and damage rolls against enemy models with the Building keyword. In addition models making a shooting attack with a bolt weapon (any weapon with "bolt" in it's name and Dorn's Arrow are all bolt weapons as is the boltgun half of a combi-weapon) may make an additional to-hit roll for every roll of a 6. These to-hit rolls do not generate additional shots. The non-bolt weapon portion of a combi-weapon additionally does not benefit from this rule.
 
While I feel the rule towards buildings to be incredibly fluffy, it's not enough to build an army around as it's more situational than something you can build an army around. As such I didn't take it away but rolled it into the first effect as it fits well with their removal of an enemy's army protection mechanic. Making them the army that benefits the most from taking bolter weapons was more to make a nod to their special rule in their previous supplement material. This creates an army with a focus on shooting, but with a key focus on using bolt weapons as the basis of that shooting.
 
Black Templars: Righteous Zeal: You can re-roll either or both dice when a Black Templar unit fails a charge roll. On a turn a model with this rule charges, was charged or makes a Heroic Intervention add 1 to its Attacks characteristic until the end of the Fight Phase .
 
The Black Templars are quite clearly the melee focused army in the codex and it needs to show. Making their charges more reliable through rerolls ensures these zealots will make it to combat more often while the extra attack seperates them from their fellow Astartes as being the army that throws the most dice in combat. Basically the intent is to make them feel like an army that benefits from being stuck in, and gets stuck in more often. 
 
Salamanders: Master Artisans: Salamander units with this rule may re-roll a single to-hit and to-wound roll each time they shoot or fight. Additionally when using a weapon that rolls to determine the number of shots or attacks you may roll two dice and take the highest result.
 
The biggest benefit for this rule is undoubtably to vehicle with lower numbers of shots such as lascannon predators, but also helps weapons that swing the other way by making weapons that roll random number of shots more reliable for the army. Ultimately this makes Salamanders a strong contender for certain heavy weapon options as well as weapons such as the flamer which are less than reliable at times. 
 
Raven Guard: Shadow Masters: Raven Guard units that have not advanced or charged this turn gain the benefits for cover. Models that are already in cover and have not moved instead gain an additional +1 to their cover save bonus. Additionally, when targeting Infantry models with this special rule, your opponent must subtract 1 from their to-hit rolls if they are more than 12" away.
 
There were two changes here: the first was to make it so the army still has a benefit for their ability to hide themselves and their use of camoflauge, allowing them to feel like the ambush masters they should be, while giving Infantry models the existing bonus as a means of encouraging lists that aren't just a mass of tanks that get a cover bonus in the open.
 
Iron Hands: The Flesh is Weak: Roll a die each time an Iron Hands model loses a wound. On a unmodified roll of a 6 the damage is ignored and the model does not lose a wound. Models with the Character, Terminator or Dreadnought keywords instead ignore the lost wound on an unmodified roll of 5 or 6. Additionally Iron Hand models with the Vehicle keyword ignore penalties for moving and firing heavy weapons.
 
Not only are the more heavilly augmented of the chapter more likely to ignore wounds like they do in the lore, though with future proofing so that the mechanic can't be boosted or reduced by any other rules. Of course, the augmented nature of the Iron Hands become the army that benefits from bringing the most heavy weapons, though due to the way the rules work, they'll be different than the ones seen in a Salamanders army due to the benefits being different. This allows two different kind of armies to come out of the codex that both favor heavier weapons, but favor different ones due to the nature of how the rules interact with the weapons.
 
With how each chapter operates laid out and given a bonus that makes them feel more in line with their lore now it's time to look at the Warlord Traits. Not all of these need to be looked at as most are pretty solid as is and frankly work as viable options for the army that can take them. So in the interest of not making this longer than it already is going to be, let's keep to the ones that actually need addressing:
 
Angel of Death: Subtract 1 from the Leadership characteristic of enemy units that are within 6" of your Warlord. If your Warlord has slain an enemy Character during the game instead Subtract 2 from the Leadership characterisitic of enemy units within 12" of your Warlord.
 
Not a big change here, but it encourages you to use your warlord more aggressively to take out enemy characters during the game. 
 
The Imperium's Sword: Re-roll failed charge rolls for your Warlord. Models with the Black Templars keyword instead roll 3 dice and pick the two highest when making charge rolls. In addition in a turn that your Warlord has charged or makes an Heroic Intervention add 1 to their Attacks characteristic until the end of the fight phase.
 
Biggest changes here were to make it less redundant to Black Templars while also giving a bonus for Heroic Interventions to make it more likely to see the table for armies who need a defensive melee character escorting their deathball on the table.
 
Iron Resolve: Add 1 to the Wounds characteristic of your warlord. In addition, roll a dice each time your Warlord loses a wound. On an unmodified roll of a 5 or 6, your Warlord shrugs off the damage and does not lose the wound. Models with the Iron Hands keyword instead ignore a lost wound on an unmodified roll of a 4, 5, or 6. 
 
Due to the proposed changes in the Iron Hands tactic it was basically a necessity to make this work on a 4+ for an Iron Hands warlord. That said, if you want a tank of a character, they're the ones who'll most likely allow you to be one. That's the perks of replacing most of your body with robotic parts I suppose.
 
Rites of War: Friendly <Chapter> units within 6" of your Warlord automatically pass Morale tests. Additionally units within 6" of your Warlord count as hitting on a 5 or 6 when firing Overwatch.
 
Biggest change here is to give player better benefit out of the trait for huddling models up on the board. A bonus to overwatch makes this a viable choice for gunline or deathball style armies even when paired with units that don't tend to run full sized squads (Primaris or Devastators for example who don't worry about morale as much).
 
Champion of Humanity: You can add 1 to all hit and wound rolls made for your Warlord in the Fight phase when targeting an enemy Character or Monster.
 
Change here is that some of the things you want to throw a beatstick warlord at aren't characters and really any hero of the Imperium should be able to fight either of these things on equal measure.
 
Adept of the Codex (Ultramarines): While your Warlord is alive and on the table once per phase you may reuse a previously used Stratagem. Stratagems that target friendly units this way may not target the same unit twice, and can not be used to exceed any limitations within the stratagem that limit when they can be used or how many times a game they can be used. Additionally, once per game you may attempt to regain Command Points spent on a stratagem. If you choose to do this, roll a die for each Command Point, on a 2+ that CP is immediately refunded.
 
Obviously I'm not a fan of the current Adepts of the Codex as unlimited CP regeneration is a broken mechanic in the game when given for free so the change was to make the Ultramarines the more tactically flexible army instead by allowing them to use stratagems more often. This also allows them to partially negate the effects of Agents of Vect by allowing them to reuse a critical statagem that they were denied in that phase.
 
Oathkeeper (Black Templars): At the beginning of the first Battle Round, but before the first turn begins, your Warlord swears a Vow against the enemy forces. Choose a Vow from the following list and apply it's effects immediately:
Abhor the Witch: Your Warlord can attempt to deny one psychic power per turn as if they were a psyker. If they have the Armour of Contempt special rule they may instead attempt to deny one additional psychic power per turn.
Purge the Heretic: Your Warlord may perform a Heroic Interventions if the enemy are within 6" (instead of 3" and move up to 6" while doing so. Additionally all friendly Black Templar units within 6" of your Warlord may roll an extra die and choose the highest when making charge rolls.
Suffer not the Unclean to Live: Your Warlord gains +1 to hit and wound rolls made against models with the Character keywords. Additionally all friendly Black Templar units within 6" of your Warlord roll an extra die and choose the highest while Advancing.
 
This is a long one but generally the idea is to give the Black Templars their vows back. Each has an obvious bonus against a specific enemy in combat, but comes with an additional use that may cause the vows to be taken against other opponents instead. Honestly these likely need work and have been through several versions before I posted these. Ideas and suggestions especialyl welcome here.
 
With Warlord traits covered, let's talk Wargear. As before I'm only talking about changes here, but the point of these changes is as always going to be with the mind that other armies may see the changes just as well. As such there won't be as much changed her because any bonus to bolters (for example) would equally apply to an army like Sisters of Battle who typically greatly outnumber Space Marines and would negate any bonus that weapon would have against the cheaper bodies. Ideally I'd love to say that every bolter is Rapid Fire 2 and -1 AP to make Marines have the shooting output of a horde army on a smaller body count (and making every casualty take more out of the army in return) but realistically it doesn't work when you consider that the bolter is spread across a number of other armies and a higher body count army with bolters like Sisters or Scouts would become a broken mess in terms of balance.
 
Ranged Weapons
Bolt pistol (on Primaris models): Replace with Heavy Bolt Pistol. The Primaris are a more elite form of the regular Space Marine army and as such require more quality damage output to make up for their smaller numbers. The additional AP doesn't break balance for the army while giving the units a bit more punch when locked in combat, which is important for a group that lacks a number of melee options.
 
Demolisher Cannon: When targetting a unit of 5 or more models change this weapon's Type to Heavy 2D3. Generally speaking feedback I've seen time and time again is players prefer to have 2D3 shots over D6 as the average number of shots is higher for the 2D3 (4 versus 3) and it means firing at least 2 shots instead of 1. Basically it just does so much more to make the gun more likely to see the table with this change even without a points change.
 
Flamestorm gauntlets (shooting): 12" range Generally speaking no one takes these guys due to the range of their weapon being so short and with the loss of templates the fixation of 8" being the range for flame weapons can go away now. The weapon was left unchanged as the Auto Boltstorm Gauntlet pattern comes with the Fragstorm Launchers standard and fires 6+D6 shots meaning the minimum number of shots for the boltstorm variant is higher, but the Flamestorm varient trades that for automatically hitting.
 
Grav (all varients): If the target has a Save characterisitc of 3+ or better, this weapon's Strength caracteristic is doubled and the Damage characteristic is increased to D3.
 
Grav-Cannon and grav-amp: Heavy 2
 
The heavier something is the harder this is supposed to hit, so the way it hits should reflect that. As such increasing it to S10 makes it more likely to hurt those bigger models. However, keeping the Grav-cannon at Heavy 4 wasn't a balanced choice as that would give a Devastator Squad 16 S10 shots against anything with a 3+ or better which would be outright mad.
 
Heavy Flamer: 12" range, Heavy 2D3. Honestly I don't get the original change from Assault to Heavy, but regardless, we've given up the flamer template and as such it's a good way to make the Heavy Flamer a different weapon from the regular Flamer. An increased range makes it possible for it to reach out and touch the things easier while the 2D3 shots gives it a better average on it's number of hits over a standard flamer. Basically it's moving the weapon beyond just being a slight S and AP boost over the base flamer and makes it feel like a proper heavy weapon on the table.
 
Heavy Plasma Incinerator: Heavy 2. A slight points increase on the gun might be needed but honestly the reason this version of the Hellblaster's gun is left off the table beyond proxy is because the increased strength isn't enough to counterbalance the loss of mobility from making it a Heavy weapon as well as decreasing the number of shots. Giving it extra shots makes it more into the Primaris answer for more heavilly armoured models (such as vehicles, Custodes and Monsters) while still retaining the same limitations the current gun has: slower movement with decreased efficiency when you need to move.
 
Master-crafted Stalker bolt rifle/Stalker bolt rifle: Heavy 2 OR the ability to target characters. Either of these options would fix the Stalker bolt rifle so that it would see the table more often. As it currently is the Stalker has the same basic problems the Heavy Plasma Incinerator does: the loss of mobility AND number of shots with no bonus to targetting isn't enough to justify taking this weapon for just about anyone. Being able to target Characters like a Sniper Rifle or giving it Heavy 2 to allow it to offset it's lowered movement would put these into people's lists, even if it brought a slight points increase.
 
Melta (all types): Double weapon strength at half range instead of the bonus to damage rolls. Additionally change the damage characteristic to D3+3. These are weapons meant to slag even the heaviest of armour at close range and even from further away it could still do a severe amount of damage if it punches through the armour. For obvious reasons this means the Melta bomb should always be S16 as well.
 
Plasma weapons (all types): Change the bearer being slain to the bearer taking a mortal wound. While having your guys have their faces melt off is a long standing featur of the lore, the introduction of Mortal Wounds really fits this mechanic better and would allow for better synergy with armies that have mechanics to allow them to ignore Mortal Wounds, such as Iron Hands or Death Guard. This would also cut down how much the mechanic punishes multi-wound models such as Primaris or HQ choices for using plasma.
 
Melee Weapons
Chainsword/Combat Knife: -1 AP. This may require a small (1-2 point) bump as it'd still give an extra attack, but considering the lower number of attacks that can be put out by a Marine army compared to larger armies like Orks or even Guard there needs to be a quality bump to offset the lowered quantity of attacks.
 
Power Sword: Abilities: Parry: Increase the bearer's save by 1 during the Fight Phase. Generally the Power Sword is seen as a lot less of a choice. It doesn't make wounding models easier like the other options, and while it's better at ignoring armour there is a diminishing return on this against most targets. Increasing the defensive ability of the bearer at least gives it a utility beyond strictly trying to more effectively stab the other guy.
 
Vehicle Wargear
Dozer Blades: Double the bearer's Attacks characteristic until the end of the Fight Phase on a turn it has completed a successful charge. Basically let's bring these back and then let players use them to ram people.
 
Siege Shield: The bearer's Save characteristic is increased by 1 against shooting attacks. Giving a Vindicator tank an increased save against shooting for a points cost doesn't break the army as much as it gives a tank with rather limited firepower more staying power so it might actually weather more than a unit's shooting before it's reduced to a smoking puddle of slag on the table.
 
Misc Equipment
Terminator Armour: Models with the Terminator keyword reduce all weapon damage by 1 to a minimum of 1. Additionally increase their save to 1+. Since a 1 always fails this means that the save only negates the first AP of a weapon and reduces how effective multidamage weapons are. Essentially it means they won't go down quite as fast to anything less than dedicated heavy weapon fire or weight of dice.
 
Power Armour: Has +1 to it's save Characteristic against weapons with an AP profile of -1 or greater (-2,-3,ect). This was a hard one to puzzle over as Power Armour is on so many different armies. Increasing the save like All is Dust could just lead to us having Sisters running around with effective 2+ saves all the time, and a FnP effect wasn't really going to work either. In the end negating 1 of the weapon's AP seemed like the cleanest solution, though it does mean that you need to hit Thousand Sons Rubric models with -2 AP just to get them to a 3+. Magnus would be proud I guess?
 
Centurion Armour: Models with the Centurion keyword reduce all weapon damage by 1 to a minimum of 1. Increase their save by 1 against weapons with a Damage characteristic of 1. Yes, even the waddlebots are getting a look here, because honestly all that extra armour should be doing something more than it is.
 
Gravis Armour: Models with the Gravis keyword reduce all weapon damage by 1 to a minimum of 1. Increase their save by +1 against weapons with a Damage characteristic of 1. With how durable Gravis is supposed to be it needed something to feel like it was going to stay on the table longer. As lazy as it is to just reuse All Is Dust, here and on the Centurion armour, the extra armour being stronger against weaker weapons makes sense in terms of the lore. Reducing the weapon damage fits equally well and gives them more staying power. With these additions the need to push points down on the models becomes rather moot as they become the durable weapon platfoms they're shown as in the lore.

 
So what changes do you feel the codex needs to fix the balance with the rest of the game?

zerosignal wrote:
Drop Pod Assault

Drop Pods may be purchased for Tactical Squads at a discount.

Drop Pods carrying Tactical Squads may DS turn 1.

?

The Newman wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Centurion Devastator's big problem isn't getting to their proper targets. The big problem with Centurion Devastators is that a base grunt costs more than a Dreadnaught.

I'd say both are definite problems.

All three of mine are carrying the Cyclone/Heavy Bolter combo, so I might be biased on the range issue.

On the other hand, a base Centurion costing more than a base Dreadnaught is insane regardless of it's weapon load. Resolving any issues with getting it into range isn't going to help with that hanging over the unit.

Edit: That might have come across as overly dismissive. All I'm saying is that I think one of those two problems is a lot bigger than the other.

 Xenomancers wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Centurion Devastator's big problem isn't getting to their proper targets. The big problem with Centurion Devastators is that a base grunt costs more than a Dreadnaught.

I'd say both are definite problems.

All three of mine are carrying the Cyclone/Heavy Bolter combo, so I might be biased on the range issue.

On the other hand, a base Centurion costing more than a base Dreadnaught is insane regardless of it's weapon load. Resolving any issues with getting it into range isn't going to help with that hanging over the unit.

Edit: That might have come across as overly dismissive. All I'm saying is that I think one of those two problems is a lot bigger than the other.

Their main issue is their base cost. I think it's 85 or 80. It should be 40 or less. I did post on it comparing them to similar models. Anything over 40 is just paltry punishment for being a good unit last eddition. But this almost beyond that. Overcosted model with overcosted options...you end up with a 155 point 3 wound model with no invo save. LOLOLOL.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
The main thing they need to fix IMO is to make 3+ armour and no invul. be worth a damn in the game (whether it's infantry or tanks).


Not a wholesale fix, but something along those lines is something I'd love to see.

As army rule:

"The Emperor Protects"
All attacks that target a unit of Adeptus Astartes with this rule at a range of more than 12" count as AP -.

(probably broken in combination with Raven Guard, but finetuning would obviously be necessary).

Or as a strat.
"The Emperor Protects" (2 CP maybe?)
Use this stratagem at the beginning your opponent's shooting or fight phase. Until the end of the phase, one unit of Adeptus Astartes ignores all modifications to the armour save (positive or negative) and take their unmodified armour save against all attacks (except mortal wounds) in this phase.

Ice_can wrote:
Another thing that I personally find annoying is that I can't build a beat stick out of a LT as an LT can't take a stormshield but a Captain with a iron halo can as can Vanguard Vets (Like the entire squad can. It's frustrating having to take a model with a 4++ to be able to take a 3++

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Personally I'd be interested in drop pods being changed to a stratagem. Perhaps 2 CP to deep strike a unit turn 1 and you then get the model as well to pew pew things with the storm bolter.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Centurion Devastator's big problem isn't getting to their proper targets. The big problem with Centurion Devastators is that a base grunt costs more than a Dreadnaught.

I'd say both are definite problems.

All three of mine are carrying the Cyclone/Heavy Bolter combo, so I might be biased on the range issue.

On the other hand, a base Centurion costing more than a base Dreadnaught is insane regardless of it's weapon load. Resolving any issues with getting it into range isn't going to help with that hanging over the unit.

Edit: That might have come across as overly dismissive. All I'm saying is that I think one of those two problems is a lot bigger than the other.

Their main issue is their base cost. I think it's 85 or 80. It should be 40 or less. I did post on it comparing them to similar models. Anything over 40 is just paltry punishment for being a good unit last eddition. But this almost beyond that. Overcosted model with overcosted options...you end up with a 155 point 3 wound model with no invo save. LOLOLOL.

Centurions definitely need to be around 50-55 base and get an extra wound. This makes them the wall they're supposed to be and increases durability to anything not D2.

jcd386 wrote:
I think the pods should cost points, but probably not more than about 50.

Spending points on pods is strictly worse than having the option to deepstrike things for CP, since you are sort of locked into doing it during list building, except that you can put more than one unit inside of them, and the enemy does have to deal with the pod if you put it on an objective or something. These are such small advantages that their points cost should be much lower than they are currently, or they need powerful special rules to reflect their cost, such as dropping outside of 6" instead of 9", dropping on the first turn, etc.