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Djangomatic82 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why wouldn't Death Guard get the bonus either?

You see the issue with consistency here?

Also Wulfen still have a Black Carapace so that's not even accurate there either. I'd argue that the Rubrics might not have a Blac k Carapace their sealed armour likely works just the same and the Sorcerers definitely do have a carapace meaning the rule is just arbitrarily restricting the "good stuff" regardless of lore.

kinda, regarding the rubrics, they only really need a points drop to see play. they really do have amazing weapon options with AP-2 as the base line, as well as psychic powers on top of that. same goes for the Wulfen, they already have a 5+FNP with a baked in fight again, reroll 1's, 3+ invuln storm shield and all kind of stuff on top of it. they really dont need anything else.

Point was you basically have a rule that doesn't actual follow the logic of the lore and goes out of its way to create more arbitrary silliness on who can and can't have it despite a good potion of the models excluded HAVING the said Black Carapace.

Rubrics are about as effected by AP as normal Marines are. -1 AP would be fine on them as well. They'd just also get +1 to their saves vs 1 damage weapons.

jcd386 wrote:
Rubrics are about as effected by AP as normal Marines are. -1 AP would be fine on them as well. They'd just also get +1 to their saves vs 1 damage weapons.

But they'd autofail 1s meaning they'd just get a 2+ save against damage 1 weapons with a AP of -1 or less.

Basically the current heavy bolter and bolt rifles and likely a couple others I forgot. It basically doesn't change much for most weapons shooting them though.

EDIT: That said, All is Dust only works for Rubrics, so something that buffs Sorcerers instead would be a fair trade for that army.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Rubrics are about as effected by AP as normal Marines are. -1 AP would be fine on them as well. They'd just also get +1 to their saves vs 1 damage weapons.

But they'd autofail 1s meaning they'd just get a 2+ save against damage 1 weapons with a AP of -1 or less.

Basically the current heavy bolter and bolt rifles and likely a couple others I forgot. It basically doesn't change much for most weapons shooting them though.

Currently they only get a 3+ save.

I'd just say it ignores the AP that would modify the armor first, then adds another if it's only 1 damage. This could be made clear by the wording on their entry.

jcd386 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Rubrics are about as effected by AP as normal Marines are. -1 AP would be fine on them as well. They'd just also get +1 to their saves vs 1 damage weapons.

But they'd autofail 1s meaning they'd just get a 2+ save against damage 1 weapons with a AP of -1 or less.

Basically the current heavy bolter and bolt rifles and likely a couple others I forgot. It basically doesn't change much for most weapons shooting them though.

Currently they only get a 3+ save.

I'd just say it ignores the AP that would modify the armor first, then adds another if it's only 1 damage. This could be made clear by the wording on their entry.

See how overly complicated it's becoming though? That isn't the design philosophy for this edition.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
Rubrics are about as effected by AP as normal Marines are. -1 AP would be fine on them as well. They'd just also get +1 to their saves vs 1 damage weapons.

But they'd autofail 1s meaning they'd just get a 2+ save against damage 1 weapons with a AP of -1 or less.

Basically the current heavy bolter and bolt rifles and likely a couple others I forgot. It basically doesn't change much for most weapons shooting them though.

Currently they only get a 3+ save.

I'd just say it ignores the AP that would modify the armor first, then adds another if it's only 1 damage. This could be made clear by the wording on their entry.

See how overly complicated it's becoming though? That isn't the design philosophy for this edition.

It's not really any more complicated than the rule they have now.

All marines would ignore 1 AP. That's pretty easy.

Rubrics would get do the same thing they do now on top of that.

Proposed Astartes rules I'm really digging:

Transhuman Physiology: Marines ignore the first -1 AP
Terminators: Reduce the damage received by 1 to a minimum of 1
Land Raiders: Gain the steel behemoth and Crushing tracks special rule.

But chaos better get those rules as well.

 buddha wrote:
Proposed Astartes rules I'm really digging:

Transhuman Physiology: Marines ignore the first -1 AP
Terminators: Reduce the damage received by 1 to a minimum of 1
Land Raiders: Gain the steel behemoth and Crushing tracks special rule.

But chaos better get those rules as well.

Yeah all Marines should.

BrianDavion wrote:

abyrn wrote:
The Dark Angels chapter tactic/ravenwing special rule need help. The trade-off/benefits of either of these two special rules are lackluster compared to the special rules in other codexes.

Requiring a unit to stand still to get rerolls 1 to hit is a strict requirement which then overlaps with the Company Master buff. It should either work like the Cadia chapter tactic in that if there is a Company Master nearby you can reroll all hits if not moving, or change altogether.

The Ravenwing 4++ is really good in theory, but there are very few Ravenwing units with assault weapons on them. Most of the time a unit has to choose between shooting or getting the 4++. Ravenwing should treat rapid fire weapons as assault weapons when advancing. If it is too strong then it could be changed to a 5++ instead.

Right now it encourages taking a single Dark Talon that you can use the advance and shoot strat on and then not taking any other Ravenwing units that are not characters or Dark Knights.

I dunno the re-roll 1s for standing still means that DA can move their HQ forward up with their advance assault elements and leave their hellblaster gunline behind to handle itself. ... thats actually kinda nice.

as for the Ravenwing bonus, honestly... sounds to me like RW has a choice of shooting or additional defences, I'd rather see GW do more of that then get rid of it. I like it when decisions have a real choice to them.

The issue is the chapter tactics that are taken in competitive play are not an either or, they are a flat bonus (6+++, -1 to hit over 12 inches, rerolling missed charges, etc). While I agree that having more decisions is good, we're talking about balancing Astartes, not the entire game, and Dark Angels are in a bad spot right now.

As for the Hellblasters getting left behind... there is some merit to that idea, but they are not really a backline unit, they need Azrael anyways to get the 4++. The Dark Angel advance assault elements are Ravenwing, and taking Hellblasters without support is risking too many points into a unit that can easily get shot off the board.

I'm ready for the wall of hate, but I think it would be useful if marines had say 3 tactics points to spend. Each chapter MUST purchase their canonical tactic, but the weaker ones are 1 pt, middling 2 pts, and RG costs 3 pts, so they get nothing else. This would allow some extra customization if we let the chapters with extra points to spend them after seeing the enemy army. CSM get the exact same thing, with AL costing all 3 points.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm ready for the wall of hate, but I think it would be useful if marines had say 3 tactics points to spend. Each chapter MUST purchase their canonical tactic, but the weaker ones are 1 pt, middling 2 pts, and RG costs 3 pts, so they get nothing else. This would allow some extra customization if we let the chapters with extra points to spend them after seeing the enemy army. CSM get the exact same thing, with AL costing all 3 points.

I do think it would have been cool if strategems and tactics etc were like a mini deck building game in the list building phase with some kind of limit to what/ how many you could take. It would allow for flavor but also allow for less chaos and more balance.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Djangomatic82 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why wouldn't Death Guard get the bonus either?

You see the issue with consistency here?

Also Wulfen still have a Black Carapace so that's not even accurate there either. I'd argue that the Rubrics might not have a Blac k Carapace their sealed armour likely works just the same and the Sorcerers definitely do have a carapace meaning the rule is just arbitrarily restricting the "good stuff" regardless of lore.

kinda, regarding the rubrics, they only really need a points drop to see play. they really do have amazing weapon options with AP-2 as the base line, as well as psychic powers on top of that. same goes for the Wulfen, they already have a 5+FNP with a baked in fight again, reroll 1's, 3+ invuln storm shield and all kind of stuff on top of it. they really dont need anything else.

Point was you basically have a rule that doesn't actual follow the logic of the lore and goes out of its way to create more arbitrary silliness on who can and can't have it despite a good potion of the models excluded HAVING the said Black Carapace.

I really don't think so, but lets look at this one at a time, unit by unit.
1. Rubrics: they are literally empty power armor animated by magic stuff. no nervous system for the black carapace to interface with. Admittedly, sorcerer's would make sense, but how do you word a rule to include them?
2. death guard: not much different due too the MASSIVE mutation caused by Nurgle. mechanically, a 5+ FNP is better than a reroll/ +1/-1 AP or whatever, so they are still better off than normal marines.
3. Primarchs: the black carapace is a mass manufactured solution to power armor interface. Since Custodes dont have it due to having something better, i dont see why a Primarch would.
3 Wulfen: same deal as the death guard and it does seem that part of the wulfen become so during the neonate stage of training, equivalent to the scout stage,when a trainee hasn't had the black carapace grafted into them yet, as i think is indicated by their 4+ save. But like the the DG,they already have a 5+FNP (better than anything we have considered for the fix) as well as a 3+invuln option for 5 pts.
4. Daemon Princes: Mutating until you burst out of your armor and become a literal demon should be fluff enough to rule out a black carapace.
5. Beast: Like Fenrisian Wolves or Cyber wolves.
6. Scouts, Cultists,Servitors: they dont get a black carapace in the lore, so no reason for them to get one here.
7. Daemon engines: see above.

 buddha wrote:
Proposed Astartes rules I'm really digging:

Transhuman Physiology: Marines ignore the first -1 AP
Terminators: Reduce the damage received by 1 to a minimum of 1
Land Raiders: Gain the steel behemoth and Crushing tracks special rule.

But chaos better get those rules as well.

Once again I HAVE to point out that the Terminator damage rule that keeps getting proposed scales terribly.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Proposed Astartes rules I'm really digging:

Transhuman Physiology: Marines ignore the first -1 AP
Terminators: Reduce the damage received by 1 to a minimum of 1
Land Raiders: Gain the steel behemoth and Crushing tracks special rule.

But chaos better get those rules as well.

Once again I HAVE to point out that the Terminator damage rule that keeps getting proposed scales terribly.

I think you might have to make a chart to show people once and for all.

Djangomatic82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Proposed Astartes rules I'm really digging:

Transhuman Physiology: Marines ignore the first -1 AP
Terminators: Reduce the damage received by 1 to a minimum of 1
Land Raiders: Gain the steel behemoth and Crushing tracks special rule.

But chaos better get those rules as well.

Once again I HAVE to point out that the Terminator damage rule that keeps getting proposed scales terribly.

I think you might have to make a chart to show people once and for all.

Glad to.

You're essentially mess with the scale with what's supposed to kill Terminators and tanks and monstrous creatures as well.
1. Lascannons and Lances go from not killing them 1/6 of the time to 1/3 of the time. This doesn't take into account the FNP that Iron Hands Terminator variants, Blightlords, and Deathshroud have.
2. Force Weapons and Custodes melee weapons, which are supposed to be really not caring about that kind of defense for the most part, now only kill them 1/3 of the time as well.
3. Power Fists suffer this as well, but more importantly Thunder Hammers take a significant nerf against Iron Hands Terminator variants, Blightlords, and Deathshroud.
4. We can't forget Terminator characters too! Now any Terminator Captain/Chaos Lord can survive being hit by a Reaper Chainsword and being stomped on, and that's not to mention how silly Wraithlords/Wraithknights would feel. Granted those latter two units have other issues.

That's not to mention Calgar and Abigail getting said bonus too, because these are universal rules that would obviously apply to their Terminator armor. They already scale terribly as is (they would need to fail their save THREE times against a Chainsword already).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Djangomatic82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Proposed Astartes rules I'm really digging:

Transhuman Physiology: Marines ignore the first -1 AP
Terminators: Reduce the damage received by 1 to a minimum of 1
Land Raiders: Gain the steel behemoth and Crushing tracks special rule.

But chaos better get those rules as well.

Once again I HAVE to point out that the Terminator damage rule that keeps getting proposed scales terribly.

I think you might have to make a chart to show people once and for all.

Glad to.

You're essentially mess with the scale with what's supposed to kill Terminators and tanks and monstrous creatures as well.
1. Lascannons and Lances go from not killing them 1/6 of the time to 1/3 of the time. This doesn't take into account the FNP that Iron Hands Terminator variants, Blightlords, and Deathshroud have.
2. Force Weapons and Custodes melee weapons, which are supposed to be really not caring about that kind of defense for the most part, now only kill them 1/3 of the time as well.
3. Power Fists suffer this as well, but more importantly Thunder Hammers take a significant nerf against Iron Hands Terminator variants, Blightlords, and Deathshroud.
4. We can't forget Terminator characters too! Now any Terminator Captain/Chaos Lord can survive being hit by a Reaper Chainsword and being stomped on, and that's not to mention how silly Wraithlords/Wraithknights would feel. Granted those latter two units have other issues.

That's not to mention Calgar and Abigail getting said bonus too, because these are universal rules that would obviously apply to their Terminator armor. They already scale terribly as is (they would need to fail their save THREE times against a Chainsword already).

With respect but ya, isn't that a good thing? Terminators are supposed to be the ultimate heavy infantry. It should take a lascannon to get lucky and kill one.

Let's not also forget it's just a buff to their survivability as their offensive output in any format is sub-par in points to damage.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Djangomatic82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Proposed Astartes rules I'm really digging:

Transhuman Physiology: Marines ignore the first -1 AP
Terminators: Reduce the damage received by 1 to a minimum of 1
Land Raiders: Gain the steel behemoth and Crushing tracks special rule.

But chaos better get those rules as well.

Once again I HAVE to point out that the Terminator damage rule that keeps getting proposed scales terribly.

I think you might have to make a chart to show people once and for all.

Glad to.

You're essentially mess with the scale with what's supposed to kill Terminators and tanks and monstrous creatures as well.
1. Lascannons and Lances go from not killing them 1/6 of the time to 1/3 of the time. This doesn't take into account the FNP that Iron Hands Terminator variants, Blightlords, and Deathshroud have.
2. Force Weapons and Custodes melee weapons, which are supposed to be really not caring about that kind of defense for the most part, now only kill them 1/3 of the time as well.
3. Power Fists suffer this as well, but more importantly Thunder Hammers take a significant nerf against Iron Hands Terminator variants, Blightlords, and Deathshroud.
4. We can't forget Terminator characters too! Now any Terminator Captain/Chaos Lord can survive being hit by a Reaper Chainsword and being stomped on, and that's not to mention how silly Wraithlords/Wraithknights would feel. Granted those latter two units have other issues.

That's not to mention Calgar and Abigail getting said bonus too, because these are universal rules that would obviously apply to their Terminator armor. They already scale terribly as is (they would need to fail their save THREE times against a Chainsword already).

I trhink though this highlights one of the problems with marines isn't marines themselves but everything else on the battlefield. Marines in a low firepower enviroment are proably pretty good (assuming they're points'd right for example I'm sure they do well in an eivroment like kill team) but when you have hundreds of shots of tank killing weapons, Marines protection just ain't worth it

Calgars armor already halves damage, rounding down.

Frankly, I'd be fine with Terminator armor subtracting 1 damage.

Slayer, I don't think what you're describing is 'scaling terribly' at all.

Most of your objections boil down to how it combines with FNP - there aren't many cases of that. Iron Hands Termis are suddenly pretty tough? Sounds great.

Lascannons only kill a termi 2/3 of the time? Right you are. Reaper can't one-shot a captain in terminator armour anymore? Sure, glad to hear it.

Terminators need to go from joke unit to scary proposition. This needs to happen. Not just ashmatically wheezing over the line into just-about-viable. This change would do nothing for their damage output (pretty poor as it stands) but would turn them into the roadblock they really should be.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Regarding the plasma over melta thing: most D2 weapons are in the S6-S7 range with multiple shots which makes them more reliable to hit and do damage than a S8+ weapon with only one shot and random damage.

One thing brought up is that the melta really needs to be double strength at half range instead of an extra die for damage so it can actually punch holes into things like it used to.

Against T8 current melta hit in melta range does 2.25 wounds. Double S instead of damage boost 2.33 wounds. VS T7 3 vs 2.91. VS T9 1.5w vs 2.33w

I'm not sure is extra 0.08 wounds vs T8, bit less vs T7 and well albeit decent increase vs T9 REALLY what would help melta be actually useful. How many T9 targets you face? Against chimera etc you would NERF melta gun while only tiny increase against russ/knight etc.

Issues with melta:

a) price(more than plasma gun...)
b) melta range 6", deep strike range more than 9".
c) 1 shot so you have chance to miss, fail to wound or roll low for damage.

 grouchoben wrote:
Slayer, I don't think what you're describing is 'scaling terribly' at all.

Most of your objections boil down to how it combines with FNP - there aren't many cases of that. Iron Hands Termis are suddenly pretty tough? Sounds great.

Lascannons only kill a termi 2/3 of the time? Right you are. Reaper can't one-shot a captain in terminator armour anymore? Sure, glad to hear it.

Terminators need to go from joke unit to scary proposition. This needs to happen. Not just ashmatically wheezing over the line into just-about-viable. This change would do nothing for their damage output (pretty poor as it stands) but would turn them into the roadblock they really should be.

Ignoring AP and reducing damage by 1 combined totally rewrites what weapons will kill a terminators to a rediculous level.

It now takes 7 powerfist attacks to kill 1 terminator 11 for deathguard and 16 against a deathshroud.

Lascannons 3 shots to kill a terminators 5 to kill a deathguard terminator and 7 to kill a deathshroud.

That has all the hallmarks of creating problem units.

 grouchoben wrote:
Slayer, I don't think what you're describing is 'scaling terribly' at all.

Most of your objections boil down to how it combines with FNP - there aren't many cases of that. Iron Hands Termis are suddenly pretty tough? Sounds great.

Lascannons only kill a termi 2/3 of the time? Right you are. Reaper can't one-shot a captain in terminator armour anymore? Sure, glad to hear it.

Terminators need to go from joke unit to scary proposition. This needs to happen. Not just ashmatically wheezing over the line into just-about-viable. This change would do nothing for their damage output (pretty poor as it stands) but would turn them into the roadblock they really should be.

Well they're not a roadblock. That's the supposed point of Centurions.

Also why would you be glad to hear a Captain went die to a Reaper Chainsword? That's literally the definition for poor scaling right there. D Weapons when it came to Imperial Knights last edition made sense at least.

Ice_can wrote:


Ignoring AP and reducing damage by 1 combined totally rewrites what weapons will kill a terminators to a rediculous level.

It now takes 7 powerfist attacks to kill 1 terminator 11 for deathguard and 16 against a deathshroud.

Lascannons 3 shots to kill a terminators 5 to kill a deathguard terminator and 7 to kill a deathshroud.

That has all the hallmarks of creating problem units.

Where are you grabbing these numbers from?

Even currently 3 Lascannon shots will just barely deal 2 damage to terminators.

3
times
2/3 (3+ to hit)
times
5/6 (2+ to wound)
times
2/3 (5+ to save)
times
5/6 (rolling 2+ damage kills terminator)
equals
0,926 Terminators dead.
Alternatively you score 1.11 unsaved wounds but this is then subject to damage roll of 1D6 which averages 3.5 damage per roll. The average is pretty pointless when shooting low W models like terminators and not tanks because the Damage doesnt flood over to the other models as it does with Mortal Wounds.

The changes would make 3 Lascannon shots to destroy 0,555 terminators on average. The amount of shots needed to reach same value as with old rules would be 5.

I have argued before and I argue here again, many 'High Power' weapons like Meltagun and Lascannon should have more consistency in the damage. Lascannon doing 1D6 damage with every hit is nightmare. Basically you can end up super unlucky and throw 1 every single time you shoot enemy Knight, or alternatively you get lucky and throw 6 with every damage roll and the knight just melts. Meltagun getting 2D6 discard the lowest at 6" melta-range has caused many people to skip Meltaguns altogether because super-charged plasma-guns are just far more consistent and multi-purpose unless you are attacking Sv 2+ High W models where one starts to see one brief glimpse of opportunity to use Meltaguns.

My GK don't really have access to melta,other then on vehicles, but how about giving melta a fixed D at half range. Keep the 12" range, maybe lower the points, but at 6" melta blasts you with 6D to the face, and multi meltas do it at 12". Would that make melta weapons worth considering?

Of course alternative option would be to start pumping basic MEQs into 2 Wounds and Terminators into 3 Wounds. This however would have all sorts of ripple effects (Primaris marines?) and would probably demand point increases for MEQs. Atleast marines are still in point range that you can adjust their point prices in meaningful manner unlike the IG troops where +-1 presents serious problem of Zero-to-Hero and vice-versa.

5+1 = 20% increase
5-1 = 20% decrease

Marines
13+1 = 7.7% increase
13-1 = 7.7% decrease

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Djangomatic82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Proposed Astartes rules I'm really digging:

Transhuman Physiology: Marines ignore the first -1 AP
Terminators: Reduce the damage received by 1 to a minimum of 1
Land Raiders: Gain the steel behemoth and Crushing tracks special rule.

But chaos better get those rules as well.

Once again I HAVE to point out that the Terminator damage rule that keeps getting proposed scales terribly.

I think you might have to make a chart to show people once and for all.

Glad to.

You're essentially mess with the scale with what's supposed to kill Terminators and tanks and monstrous creatures as well.
1. Lascannons and Lances go from not killing them 1/6 of the time to 1/3 of the time. This doesn't take into account the FNP that Iron Hands Terminator variants, Blightlords, and Deathshroud have.
2. Force Weapons and Custodes melee weapons, which are supposed to be really not caring about that kind of defense for the most part, now only kill them 1/3 of the time as well.
3. Power Fists suffer this as well, but more importantly Thunder Hammers take a significant nerf against Iron Hands Terminator variants, Blightlords, and Deathshroud.
4. We can't forget Terminator characters too! Now any Terminator Captain/Chaos Lord can survive being hit by a Reaper Chainsword and being stomped on, and that's not to mention how silly Wraithlords/Wraithknights would feel. Granted those latter two units have other issues.

That's not to mention Calgar and Abigail getting said bonus too, because these are universal rules that would obviously apply to their Terminator armor. They already scale terribly as is (they would need to fail their save THREE times against a Chainsword already).

1. I've also suggested Las and melta need to never do less than 3 damage.
2. This seems fine to me. Terminators should be more durable against 2d and 1d3d IMO.
3. This is true. Maybe those units would need to cost more, but they aren't exactly good right now as it is.
4. I don't recommend any characters get a wound reducing rule. They already have the ability to survive a 2 damage shot.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ice_can wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Slayer, I don't think what you're describing is 'scaling terribly' at all.

Most of your objections boil down to how it combines with FNP - there aren't many cases of that. Iron Hands Termis are suddenly pretty tough? Sounds great.

Lascannons only kill a termi 2/3 of the time? Right you are. Reaper can't one-shot a captain in terminator armour anymore? Sure, glad to hear it.

Terminators need to go from joke unit to scary proposition. This needs to happen. Not just ashmatically wheezing over the line into just-about-viable. This change would do nothing for their damage output (pretty poor as it stands) but would turn them into the roadblock they really should be.

Ignoring AP and reducing damage by 1 combined totally rewrites what weapons will kill a terminators to a rediculous level.

It now takes 7 powerfist attacks to kill 1 terminator 11 for deathguard and 16 against a deathshroud.

Lascannons 3 shots to kill a terminators 5 to kill a deathguard terminator and 7 to kill a deathshroud.

That has all the hallmarks of creating problem units.

It would actually only need 6 on average, where right now it only takes between 3 and 4.

Honestly that seems fine to me.

Don't really understand the logic of letting marines ignore all AP. Marines aren't the only elite units out there that struggle in the current meta, and they do better than most already. They don't need super special rules.

Darsath wrote:
Don't really understand the logic of letting marines ignore all AP. Marines aren't the only elite units out there that struggle in the current meta, and they do better than most already. They don't need super special rules.

Who has suggested ALL AP? I have read about ignoring first point of AP.

And marines aren't doing that well apart from couple special units like slamquinus. But of course similar rule could be introduced to other struggling elites.

tneva82 wrote:

Darsath wrote:
Don't really understand the logic of letting marines ignore all AP. Marines aren't the only elite units out there that struggle in the current meta, and they do better than most already. They don't need super special rules.

Who has suggested ALL AP? I have read about ignoring first point of AP.

And marines aren't doing that well apart from couple special units like slamquinus. But of course similar rule could be introduced to other struggling elites.

They are better represented than most for sure.

Ghorgul wrote:

Ice_can wrote:


Ignoring AP and reducing damage by 1 combined totally rewrites what weapons will kill a terminators to a rediculous level.

It now takes 7 powerfist attacks to kill 1 terminator 11 for deathguard and 16 against a deathshroud.

Lascannons 3 shots to kill a terminators 5 to kill a deathguard terminator and 7 to kill a deathshroud.

That has all the hallmarks of creating problem units.

Where are you grabbing these numbers from?

Even currently 3 Lascannon shots will just barely deal 2 damage to terminators.

3
times
2/3 (3+ to hit)
times
5/6 (2+ to wound)
times
2/3 (5+ to save)
times
5/6 (rolling 2+ damage kills terminator)
equals
0,926 Terminators dead.
Alternatively you score 1.11 unsaved wounds but this is then subject to damage roll of 1D6 which averages 3.5 damage per roll. The average is pretty pointless when shooting low W models like terminators and not tanks because the Damage doesnt flood over to the other models as it does with Mortal Wounds.

The changes would make 3 Lascannon shots to destroy 0,555 terminators on average. The amount of shots needed to reach same value as with old rules would be 5.

I have argued before and I argue here again, many 'High Power' weapons like Meltagun and Lascannon should have more consistency in the damage. Lascannon doing 1D6 damage with every hit is nightmare. Basically you can end up super unlucky and throw 1 every single time you shoot enemy Knight, or alternatively you get lucky and throw 6 with every damage roll and the knight just melts. Meltagun getting 2D6 discard the lowest at 6" melta-range has caused many people to skip Meltaguns altogether because super-charged plasma-guns are just far more consistent and multi-purpose unless you are attacking Sv 2+ High W models where one starts to see one brief glimpse of opportunity to use Meltaguns.

That 5+ save becomes a 4+ save for the new rules (the 5++ becomes su0er redundant) and the avarage damage goes from 3.5 down to 2.7. For a standard terminator the changes are fine but start going to deathguard with 5+++ and T5 and it gets brutal.