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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/08 00:03:06
Subject: Re:AoS General Discussion
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Angered Reaver Arena Champion
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As for battleline; some armies have poor battleline units, because some units are poor. Similarly some armies have OP battleline units, because some units are OP. Armies also have plenty of non-battleline which are poor, and plenty of non-battleline which are OP. That's a balance issue, not an argument against percentages.
Kinda is though. A percentage system will lock certain armies into mediocrity and bottom tier while the current system at least allows barely mediocre books to have a fighting chance by relying more heavily on elite slots(like the Cancon winner). The current system at least gives a sense of flexibility that can make up for imbalance. Having percentages just means us who have a weak tome and even weaker battlelines should just buy a new army(which I - in all honesty - did, but I come from the privilege of being able to own several armies).
Let's put it like this if there was a percentage tax:
Armies with weak battlelines - Become weaker. If they have strong elites they can not rely on them on to make up for weak battlelines.
Armies with strong battlelines - stay strong and/or become stronger. If they have weak elites they really don't care. They can even have more battlelines if they want to. If they have strong elites they have everything going for them.
Personally I'd rather want the flexibility to make up for weaknesses than having to rely on GW reaching Super Saiyan 3 and managing to create perfect balance of all units. To be fair I also do not have any nostalgia for WHFB and the image it sold of large core units.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I don't want my battleline and basic units to be super heroes, but I want them to feel like they are accomplising something on the battlefield that isn't just being there and dying to make some kidn of sense of a real "battle", and force me to buy more models.
Exactly this. I am pretty much shelving my Blades of Khorne because I am just tired of seeing 20-40 bloodreavers killed without them doing anything. I don't want them to be 40-50 points just so I can field more cannon fodder for my enemy.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/08 00:04:57
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/08 00:43:17
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Clousseau
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Right. things like blood reavers could almost be free and they'd still die like that. And people would still largely leave them at home.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/08 02:29:42
Subject: Re:AoS General Discussion
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Eldarsif wrote:As for battleline; some armies have poor battleline units, because some units are poor. Similarly some armies have OP battleline units, because some units are OP. Armies also have plenty of non-battleline which are poor, and plenty of non-battleline which are OP. That's a balance issue, not an argument against percentages.
Kinda is though. A percentage system will lock certain armies into mediocrity and bottom tier while the current system at least allows barely mediocre books to have a fighting chance by relying more heavily on elite slots(like the Cancon winner). The current system at least gives a sense of flexibility that can make up for imbalance. Having percentages just means us who have a weak tome and even weaker battlelines should just buy a new army(which I - in all honesty - did, but I come from the privilege of being able to own several armies).
Let's put it like this if there was a percentage tax:
Armies with weak battlelines - Become weaker. If they have strong elites they can not rely on them on to make up for weak battlelines.
Armies with strong battlelines - stay strong and/or become stronger. If they have weak elites they really don't care. They can even have more battlelines if they want to. If they have strong elites they have everything going for them.
Personally I'd rather want the flexibility to make up for weaknesses than having to rely on GW reaching Super Saiyan 3 and managing to create perfect balance of all units. To be fair I also do not have any nostalgia for WHFB and the image it sold of large core units.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't want my battleline and basic units to be super heroes, but I want them to feel like they are accomplising something on the battlefield that isn't just being there and dying to make some kidn of sense of a real "battle", and force me to buy more models.
Exactly this. I am pretty much shelving my Blades of Khorne because I am just tired of seeing 20-40 bloodreavers killed without them doing anything. I don't want them to be 40-50 points just so I can field more cannon fodder for my enemy.
Realistically though, what army with weak battleline is doing well and would be shafted by needing to spend 400-500 points on it?
Also Bloodreavers seem fine to me. They run in, do some damage, and die. Sure at tournaments they suck, but a solid 3/4 the units in the game suck at tournaments. Automatically Appended Next Post: And just to make sure we are on the same page; a unit that does well at tournaments is either OP itself or part of a battalion/allegiance exploit that is. Balanced units are bad at tournaments.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/08 02:42:58
Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page
I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/08 09:06:12
Subject: Re:AoS General Discussion
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Angered Reaver Arena Champion
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Also Bloodreavers seem fine to me. They run in, do some damage, and die.
I've even found them to suck at a casual level. They are at best objective grabbers if you have some undefended objectives. In combat they fall like flies and often without doing any damage themselves.
The problem with Bloodreavers is a fundamental one and related to the old design paradigm of early AoS. They are built around synergy except the synergy units are so many that to make them viable in offence means piling on ton of heroes to make them work. Doesn't help that those heroes have often gone up in price themselves like the bloodsecrator. This also means that the Khorne army - if you want to run mortals en masse - requires a lot of bog-standard builds just to function. Gore Pilgrim for that bloodsecrator bubble. That Deathbringer for a boost, that killing frenzy to hit better, a Lord on Juggernaut for better wound rolls, Wrathmongers on the sideline for extra attacks, etc etc. That's a lot of purchases to make a unit viable in combat compared to Witch Aelves that need a Hag Queen for her ability who can also cast Catechism of Murder. Then, if you really want to, you can pile on Mindrazor. Hell, if I were to even compare a more cost comparative unit like Blood Warrior I would still take Witch Aelves as I need less to boost them comparatively to the Blood Warriors.
But, this is all a moot point because there is a new Khorne battletome on the way and I am brimming with excitement.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/08 09:15:30
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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auticus wrote:
But to win you really only had to kill the king on the dragon. And I played undead and chaos back then. My undead were rolling with hand of dust or curse of the years (auto death spells) with forbidden rod (irresistable force by using the rod, no roll needed) and my chaos lord on dragon had upwards of 44 attacks by himself with the hydra blade and mark of khorne.
Wonder how many misplayed the hydra blade so that it could spread among units. It was much less scary when there wasn't one tough model. You have 5 attacks with hydra blade? Sure for every attack you hit you are going to get d6 hits against that model so enjoy killing 1-5 basic guys with your 5 attacks.
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2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/08 12:38:03
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Clousseau
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Oh good. Another khorne battle tome. We definitely needed one of those.
Would be nice if those other factions with nothing could get a book.
Edit: and khorne is one of my primary armies. Automatically Appended Next Post: tneva82 wrote:auticus wrote:
But to win you really only had to kill the king on the dragon. And I played undead and chaos back then. My undead were rolling with hand of dust or curse of the years (auto death spells) with forbidden rod (irresistable force by using the rod, no roll needed) and my chaos lord on dragon had upwards of 44 attacks by himself with the hydra blade and mark of khorne.
Wonder how many misplayed the hydra blade so that it could spread among units. It was much less scary when there wasn't one tough model. You have 5 attacks with hydra blade? Sure for every attack you hit you are going to get d6 hits against that model so enjoy killing 1-5 basic guys with your 5 attacks.
In my games, units were rare. The chaos lord with the hydra blade and frenzy wasn't there to kill units, because units weren't really how the game worked. It was there to pop enemy heroes and their generals. Units were kind of like cheerleaders, and I am speaking not at the casual anecdotal local level, back then I traveled north america and did the GT circuit.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/02/08 12:40:30
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/08 12:47:12
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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Yeah a new Khorne tome does seem odd. They have a relatively recent style book (it has artifacts and such) and were just missing Endless Spells (or "Judgment of Khorne" whatever they are called). Would have much rathered see Seraphon, Fyreslayers, Ironjawz, or especially Kharadron Overlords who have a really new book and somehow GW missed the boat so completely that they got totally shafted almost immediately. But especially any one of the armies that still have an original style AOS book. But nope, new Khorne tome with more extras when Khorne was already apparently doing pretty good.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/08 12:48:27
- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/08 12:51:26
Subject: Re:AoS General Discussion
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Angered Reaver Arena Champion
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Would be nice if those other factions with nothing could get a book.
Considering that they admitted in the panel that more is coming along with classic armies I think this was just a low fruit they picked just to get it out of the way. They only needed to update the army to be useful in 2.0 and that's it so it is easy money for them. I kinda expect they'll do so with quite a few pre-Maggotkin books. Low hanging fruit that sells and can be thrown in with other big releases.
For factions that don't have a book I imagine they would want to throw a little more weight into the ring.
Personally I foresee a few potential tomes. This is just me attempting to be psychic and doing a cold reading so take from that what you will.
I imagine they will create Battletome: Orruks. In this they will combine all the Orruk factions much as they did with Skaven. The current Orruk lines are small so combining them probably creates a stronger overall faction, plus they have already done similar with legion of Nagash and Skaven now. Then I imagine they'll take Dispossessed. They might end up combining them and Fireslayers if they don't want to expand Fireslayers. I am most curious about what they will end up doing with Dispossessed as that is perhaps the most straight faction from the old world in the game.
Then there are the easy picks: Everchosen with Slaves to Darkness/Dark Oath and Slaanesh.
If they want to throw in a little monkeywrench to screw with people they might rerelease tomb kings for gak and giggles.
I also fully believe they will create the Tyrion and Teclis faction and use quite a few of the existing kits to fill that out.
I have to admit I am super psyched about what they will do with AoS this year. Also, with another survey out it will be interesting what they'll take away from that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/08 12:56:02
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Clousseau
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Now the mention of settra does excite me because I have a very large tomb kings force that I use for KOW and Erehwon that I'd like to return to using in AOS.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/08 12:59:14
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Angered Reaver Arena Champion
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They also mentioned in one panel(or the website, don't remember which) that with Warcry there are going to be a lot of new cool sculpts.
Exciting time for AoS people.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/08 16:15:42
Subject: Re:AoS General Discussion
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Foxy Wildborne
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Eldarsif wrote:Considering that they admitted in the panel that more is coming along with classic armies I think this was just a low fruit they picked just to get it out of the way. They only needed to update the army to be useful in 2.0 and that's it so it is easy money for them. I kinda expect they'll do so with quite a few pre-Maggotkin books. Low hanging fruit that sells and can be thrown in with other big releases.
I admit I would buy Disciples of Tzeentch 2.0 if they just patch the rules and keep the layout and art identical. That book is gorgeous but I can't justify paying for it when almost every page has errata.
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The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/08 18:41:08
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Charging Dragon Prince
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I'd be more excited for AoS if GW would be more open with what they actually plan to do. I'll likely be more excited when the new elves are announced, although, that is not to say that Warcry and Forbidden power won't excite me, once they release concrete information about the projects. I couldn't have guessed Khorne would be getting endless spells and a new book. That feels a bit random.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/08 18:41:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/08 18:49:50
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Clousseau
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Well that and allegedly stormcast are opening yet another chamber and getting their (fourth or fifth? i forget) book.
Because why not.
Warcry looks interesting. I bet that has bottle on it doing hinterlands adaption to be "official" now.
Forbidden power I'm meh on because i rarely use sorcery now as it is. Its just a points drain that has netted me very little.
I agree that it would be nice to know whats coming down the pipe for the entire year. So we know khorne (book 3) and stormcast (book 4 or 5) is coming. We don't know if the FEC book counts as the death release or not.
We suspect slaanesh book. Thats really it in terms of pretty much guaranteed.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/08 18:51:40
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
UK
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I blieve over on facebook someone from GW said "no stormcast in sight".
If I Recall right from the lore several chambers are just more of the same stormcast not necessarily new units just a new division.
Save one's rage for ACTUAL factions not summaries based on sketchy marketing speak that can mean almost anything
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/08 21:28:44
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Death-Dealing Devastator
Chicago, IL
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I don't play Korn or have any future plans to play Korn but I'm not really upset by its announcement. I mean if this was the first AOS announcement after 3 month of nothing I would be upset, but given Skaven and Flesheaters coming out right on the heals of Trolls and Goblins, I fully welcome this news. I wouldn't exactly say Korn was struggling but they were still some what lacking what I will call tactical depth. This is also further prof that people hit with, lets call them premature battle tombs, aren't necessarily stuck with them. And while I would have rather seen something like Slaanesh, I also know that Slaanesh need a much larger overhaul and if they got something that can "fix" an army like Korn now, I would rather they release it now than sit on it and release it when it is "more fair".
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To those that say there is no stupid questions I say, "Is this a stupid question?" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/08 22:25:29
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos
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I seriously hope we get a Skull Throne as a terrain piece.
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2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/09 00:17:12
Subject: Re:AoS General Discussion
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Angered Reaver Arena Champion
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Well that and allegedly stormcast are opening yet another chamber and getting their (fourth or fifth? i forget) book.
As I understand it this is an expansion and not a Battletome. So far all we know it could be another Firestorm or Malign Portents. I think they are trying to go for one big story development per year at least.
Now, in 2019, the Soul Wars continue – and something ancient and terrible is awakened…
This is very ominous and I do hope this is a big reveal for something that is coming.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/09 00:43:46
Subject: Re:AoS General Discussion
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Fixture of Dakka
West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA
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I do find it intriguing that some people are saying that something "ancient and terrible" would definitely describe Tomb Kings, as an enemy of Nagash, which would ALSO definitely continue the Soul Wars.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/09 00:44:51
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/09 00:52:17
Subject: Re:AoS General Discussion
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Angered Reaver Arena Champion
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AegisGrimm wrote:I do find it intriguing that some people are saying that something "ancient and terrible" would definitely describe Tomb Kings, as an enemy of Nagash, which would ALSO definitely continue the Soul Wars.
That's what I first thought when I saw the announcement. I could be terribly wrong, but GW probably knows there are people who have been asking for Tomb Kings' return and might think it worthwhile to bring them back. Only the future will tell.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/09 01:19:22
Subject: Re:AoS General Discussion
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Fixture of Dakka
West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA
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Or at least Settra shows back up with an AoS'ed version of Tomb Kings, as normal skeletons might now be GW's style anymore.
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"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/09 01:30:03
Subject: Re:AoS General Discussion
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Master Engineer with a Brace of Pistols
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Skeleton armies would be a great way to bring back the TK, even if it’s only in spirit rather than literally.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/09 01:58:48
Subject: Re:AoS General Discussion
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Lieutenant General
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Tomb Kings fit the 'ancient' part but in the Mortal Realms I'm not too sure that 'terrible' would describe them. Regardless I would love to see their introduction to the Age of Sigmar.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/09 02:44:45
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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A reimagined Tomb Kings where everything is some kind of construct would be cool.
The Necrons and Tomb Kings could be locked in an eternal cycle of ripping each other off
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BlaxicanX wrote:A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/09 02:54:25
Subject: Re:AoS General Discussion
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Eldarsif wrote:Also Bloodreavers seem fine to me. They run in, do some damage, and die.
I've even found them to suck at a casual level. They are at best objective grabbers if you have some undefended objectives. In combat they fall like flies and often without doing any damage themselves.
The problem with Bloodreavers is a fundamental one and related to the old design paradigm of early AoS. They are built around synergy except the synergy units are so many that to make them viable in offence means piling on ton of heroes to make them work. Doesn't help that those heroes have often gone up in price themselves like the bloodsecrator. This also means that the Khorne army - if you want to run mortals en masse - requires a lot of bog-standard builds just to function. Gore Pilgrim for that bloodsecrator bubble. That Deathbringer for a boost, that killing frenzy to hit better, a Lord on Juggernaut for better wound rolls, Wrathmongers on the sideline for extra attacks, etc etc. That's a lot of purchases to make a unit viable in combat compared to Witch Aelves that need a Hag Queen for her ability who can also cast Catechism of Murder. Then, if you really want to, you can pile on Mindrazor. Hell, if I were to even compare a more cost comparative unit like Blood Warrior I would still take Witch Aelves as I need less to boost them comparatively to the Blood Warriors.
But, this is all a moot point because there is a new Khorne battletome on the way and I am brimming with excitement. 
All you need for bloodreaver synergy is a bloodsecrator, which you were bringing anyways. 31 attacks from 70 points of model is not bad at all. I've seen them used effectively time and again, so I really find it hard to believe they are bad. I would still bump them down to 60 per ten, 150 per 30 (they max are 30 right?) though, due to base size.
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Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page
I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/09 03:58:16
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I'm not mad about khorne book, just annoyed and slightly frustrated. As a Slaanesh player, I would love my book, and a mortal faction, and I know I will get that down the line, and i'm fine with waiting, it'll come and it'll be great. It felt like Khorne wasn't that far behind, much like... Ironjawz, Fyreslayers, Sylvaneth, seraphon, bonesplittaz, or the biggest of lads, BCR. Factions that got adopted early to new styles of battletomes, but get left behind for factions who have already seen a second book. I know it's technically getting them up to second edition, but Khorne wasn't falling off the face of the earth.
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Nearly 3k+ points of Slaanesh (AoS)
2500 points of Ironjawz
Too many points of Space Marines. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/09 04:14:11
Subject: Re:AoS General Discussion
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Fixture of Dakka
West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA
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Ghaz wrote:Tomb Kings fit the 'ancient' part but in the Mortal Realms I'm not too sure that 'terrible' would describe them. Regardless I would love to see their introduction to the Age of Sigmar.
*Old man voice*
"You young ungrateful kids! You don't remember the days when a mummy ripping a man into bloody halves in a Nuln slum was scary enough for us Warhammer players!
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"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/09 09:08:20
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Carnith wrote:I'm not mad about khorne book, just annoyed and slightly frustrated. As a Slaanesh player, I would love my book, and a mortal faction, and I know I will get that down the line, and i'm fine with waiting, it'll come and it'll be great. It felt like Khorne wasn't that far behind, much like... Ironjawz, Fyreslayers, Sylvaneth, seraphon, bonesplittaz, or the biggest of lads, BCR. Factions that got adopted early to new styles of battletomes, but get left behind for factions who have already seen a second book. I know it's technically getting them up to second edition, but Khorne wasn't falling off the face of the earth.
Getting mad would play right into Khorne's hands... Surely as a Slaanesh player you can appreciate the indulgent excess of certain factions? Automatically Appended Next Post: AegisGrimm wrote: Ghaz wrote:Tomb Kings fit the 'ancient' part but in the Mortal Realms I'm not too sure that 'terrible' would describe them. Regardless I would love to see their introduction to the Age of Sigmar.
*Old man voice*
"You young ungrateful kids! You don't remember the days when a mummy ripping a man into bloody halves in a Nuln slum was scary enough for us Warhammer players!
Exalted for making me chuckle
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/09 09:08:53
Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page
I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/09 09:25:43
Subject: Re:AoS General Discussion
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Angered Reaver Arena Champion
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Tomb Kings would also fit Sigmar's style. All that gold.
You see Austin Powers, I love GOOOLD!. The taste of it, the smell of, the teexture...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/09 10:00:46
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Foxy Wildborne
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It's not an army, it's a an expansion. Pay attention.
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The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/02/09 10:40:30
Subject: Re:AoS General Discussion
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Charging Dragon Prince
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Found this rat thing on reddit.
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