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The only issue with addressing summoning would be considering lowering the points cost for many armies that use it otherwise many customers will be a bit irate if their 2K army becomes worth 3K but they can never deploy it all.
Then again I figure as AoS matures we will see point drops or the base army size (2K) go up and the number of models increase
I know that in my circles the Double Turn is getting more and more dislike as time goes on. Even the hardiest of caac players are getting bothered by it. I also know of quite a few players who don't want to commit or get into AoS because they do not like the Double Turn mechanic.
GW probably wants to keep it because it makes AoS "Different", but I do wonder what it might cost in the long run. I just know I am tired of getting double-turned while facing a Nagash spell caster army. Feels like I can just take a coffee break and then get an update on how many mortal wounds were caused when I return.
Eldarsif wrote: I know that in my circles the Double Turn is getting more and more dislike as time goes on. Even the hardiest of caac players are getting bothered by it. I also know of quite a few players who don't want to commit or get into AoS because they do not like the Double Turn mechanic.
GW probably wants to keep it because it makes AoS "Different", but I do wonder what it might cost in the long run. I just know I am tired of getting double-turned while facing a Nagash spell caster army. Feels like I can just take a coffee break and then get an update on how many mortal wounds were caused when I return.
Aye and that's a huge issue - one player is getting all the "fun" whilst the other has little to do. The other big issue is that it really punishes one player. Sure if you're losing and get a double turn its neat; but in almost any other situation it just turns the game state around to heavily benefit the player who got the first double turn. Plus there's nothing you can do within the rules to help you get nor avoid it; its purely a single dice roll situation.
Personally I think with the models and endless spells and terrain features AoS already has its own identity. It doesn't need the double turn to be special.
I think summoning can be fine as well - provided its not off the chain. Like how they did goblins or khorne or nurgle, I think those are fine.
How they did legion of nagash, FEC, and seraphon - most definitely not fine. Those are off the chain.
Double turn needs to die in a dumpster fire. We had a campaign meeting to discuss alt activation, igougo, or aos double turn, and it was heavily slanted toward alt activation, with no one out of like 20 people wanting double turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Honestly I am surprised so many people defend the double turn online, because in person almost everyone I have ever talked to in the past four years or so of AOS has hated the double turn (not just in my local, when I go to adepticon and other regional events).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/17 14:42:25
I thought double turn was "okay" when the lethality of the game was much less. However - as with many GW products - lethality has increased, especially thanks to MW spam and more. This means that double turns, if anything, have escalated in how badly they can consign you to be wiped out.
They've shown a willingness to put a cap on things in AoS. Ie. Ally cap scaling with game size. Perhaps the addition of a sideboard of summon options set at a certain point percentage based on game size could be added.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
Elmir wrote: I'm actually more curious about how they will be rectifying those books long term.
There was a similar situation with Tzeentch being busted a year and a half ago. They had to effectively change mechanics (at least with respect to pink/blue/brimstone horrors and do a huge points cost adjustment to bring them in line.
Horror summoning is the strongest element of Tzeentch summoning, and probably the only overpowered thing they have left. What nerfed Tzeentch was across-the-board point increases.
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Overread wrote: I think summoning as a mechanic works - its more the potential for it to get out of control for several armies that is brought into question. Ergo not the act of summoning itself but its effectiveness on the tabletop.
Agreed. And I think this is the general mentality of the community, even if there is disagreement on if/how balanced it is right now.
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Wayniac wrote: Granted I am biased as I am mainly an FEC player so I like seeing my army in the limelight as opposed to the dumpster, but the real issue is Gristlegore. The other courts aren't that bad; nasty but not OP. Gristlegore is the main outlier. I would not mind seeing it nerfed because I don't like Gristlegore anyways (I like Hollowmourne, the Horror one, and Blisterskin, the Flayer one)
In terms of overall build its Gristlegore-Blisterskin-Feast Day as all being entirely broken. A GT near me had FEC get 1st and 2nd, first was blisterskin while second was gristlegore. The last two rounds had the blisterskin beat the gristlegore, then the blisterskin beat 3-ballista stormcast. The latter matchup is one gristlegore tends to lose, but blisterskin does not thanks to the artifact.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/04/17 18:37:51
I think the other issue with a lot of the FEC is that they can do their summoning early in the game before most players can even have a chance to counter. With armies ilke Daughters of Khaine they are tough, but you can spot the patterns and go for the leaders/thrones and slow/destroy them so that you can reduce their power.
Ergo they are tough but you can work out ways to counter it with most armies.
Note this isn't saying that DoK might not benefit from a slight adjustment to lower their power curve at the top end; bur rather that its at least a surmountable challenge rather than one that is very hard to near impossible.
They put a "sneak peek" at what are likely changes to the Sylvaneth book into the Warband rules.
Martial Memories: Tree-Revenants are suffused with the echoes of their predecessors’ lives, and can draw on centuries of experience when they go to war. At the start of the combat phase, roll a dice for each friendly unit with this ability that is within 3" of any enemy units. On a 3+ that unit fights at the start of the combat phase, before the players pick any other units to fight in that combat phase. That unit cannot fight again in that combat phase unless an ability or spell allows it to fight more than once.
I think they are starting to go down the path like they did with MWs/FnP where a once rare and unique ability is becoming common. To me that dilutes the flavor of it. Their old/current rule (re-roll one dice per phase) doesn't scale and often doesn't do much, but I like the idea of that martial experience making them more reliable. Would have liked to see something along those lines, even just as simple as re-rolling X in combat by default. Or it could be something new like, say, ignoring hit penalties (or even just hit penalties of -1). That would give them a unique but easy-to-play-with rule.
For that matter ignoring hit penalties of -1 would be a nice thing to see as a reoccurring rule just among aelves/psuedo-aelves because it fits their martial expertise.
Reading the last two entries in the timeline section of the new Fyreslayer tome reveals that first, work is afoot amongst the disparate Duardin factions to reunite as a race, or at least work together more closely once the truth of ur-gold/Grimnir is accidentally revealed. Secondly, there are rumors that Grungni has returned from self imposed exile and is building something that will also herald re-unification, with rumors ranging from it being a machine of some sort, a new Duardin bloodline, or trying to find a way to bring back Vallaya(not named, but it mentions the missing goddess of the hearth). The last line mentions that it could just be wild rumor and/or drunken hopes, but the fact that its two entries back to back that explicitly mention reunification seems very suspicious.
Sounds like Dispossessed may have something in the works?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/20 09:38:58
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
NinthMusketeer wrote: I think they are starting to go down the path like they did with MWs/FnP where a once rare and unique ability is becoming common. To me that dilutes the flavor of it. Their old/current rule (re-roll one dice per phase) doesn't scale and often doesn't do much, but I like the idea of that martial experience making them more reliable. Would have liked to see something along those lines, even just as simple as re-rolling X in combat by default. Or it could be something new like, say, ignoring hit penalties (or even just hit penalties of -1). That would give them a unique but easy-to-play-with rule.
For that matter ignoring hit penalties of -1 would be a nice thing to see as a reoccurring rule just among aelves/psuedo-aelves because it fits their martial expertise.
Maybe I'm weird, but I like it as a rule myself. It lets them have a pseudo-Aelf flair while still giving them a fluffy bit(as the 'souls' animating the Tree-Revenants might not be fully awakened).
Still gotta see Wargrove benefits and the like too.
With regards to the "ignoring hit penalties", I genuinely feel like there aren't too many of them in the game currently to make me need to ignore them. I will say that if Waywatchers don't get to be a whole other level of sharpshooter compared to the Knight-Venator though, we might have a problem.
It may be local meta, but hit penalties are something I see all the time. Most battletomes have some access to it, anyone can (and not-infrequently does) take gryph feather charm, there are a good number of realm spells that add hit penalties (though I don't know how frequently those are used), look out sir is a thing for shooting, and some armies like Skaven, Gloomspite, or Slaanesh will almost always have notable hit penalty elements.
But again, I don't have any sort of overall stats on the matter. Just my anecdotal perspective.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Predicting it now: Vostarg with Lords of the Lodge containing a 30-man Hzerker unit will be a dominant Fyreslayer tourney build. Run & charge, +1 to hit, can be picked to attack twice.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/21 06:31:24
Haven't gone through it in detail but this seems at BoC level, where the vast majority is pretty balanced but there are a few problem elements/exploits that lead to tourney power with a proper build. I would rate it as tolerable, since it requires deliberate optimization to cheese* out.
*It is definitely spicy cheese, the kind that sets your mouth on fyre.
The problem is simply that going through the factions, run & charge is just so grossly more useful than anything else that they might as well not have the other options in there.
Finished The Red Feast by Gav Thorpe this weekend.
A little summary/review:
Potential spoilers:
Spoiler:
It charts the embracing of Chaos (Khorne in this case) of Athol Kul and Threx Skullbrand, who we know now as Khorgos Kul, and his Bloodsecrator from the first Age of Sigmar starter set. The biggest draw for me was that its set entirely at the dawn of the Age of Chaos. Its definitely not the utopia that I always got the impression from how the pre-chaos Age of Myth were portrayed. It seems Chaos always had a foothold in the Mortal Realms, its just that Sigmar whooped most of the overt Chaos-y stuff out of the human tribes. For the nomadic tribes of the Flamescar Plateau, Sigmar is a distant deity and only a few have completely embraced him as patron, with some tribes still unkowingly maintaining cultural ties to their Chaos past.
Both characters were pretty well written, though Athol/Khorgos is the star of the show(thats him on the cover, notice the subtle Khorne symbol on his spear blade) with his hopes and motivations much more realized than Threx’s. Long story short, Athol/Khorgos is an honorable man motivated to keep his people alive in the face of an overwhelming and seemingly Tzeentchian threat, whereas Threx simply wants his people to return to violent glory, rather than become civilized and embrace the worship and cultural influence of Sigmar. I never really felt sympathy for Threx, but Khorgos was sorta put in a no win situation, though he had a few ways to avoid his future. None of which were particularly nice for him or his people, but in hindsight would’ve been better for the Realm of Aqshy as a whole.
Circumstances set up in this book will probably make Athol/Khorgos a bit more tragic in the next book(s), but I felt the ending was a bit rushed and Athol/Khorgos’s embrace of Khorne a bit hasty, considering he was a patient and thoughtful character up to that point. I suppose he was pushed into it out of desperation, but it seemed fairly prompt.
The tale is also told concurrently with a man living in a cave, compelled to paint pictures of whats to come. For 80% of the book he’s an ancillary character, but then gets completely involved in both character’s story toward the end. I’m not sure who/what he is on the tabletop, if anything. His trials were fun to read as well, being hunted by Beastmen at times.
I was looking forward to seeing another prominent character from the first AoS starter set make an appearance, but it looks like Gav is holding him for the next book.
I wouldn’t call this necessary reading, there are no shocking revelations and it obviously doesn’t push the AoS narrative forward as its a prequel, but it was a quick, entertaining and light read.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/22 06:41:44
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
So now that warhammer community posted the slaanesh spells and allegiance abilities.
The book is well done, a lot of fun, and I'd give it high marks alongside the khorne and goblin books. Nothing sticks out as mega busted.
That being said, the max slaanesh build is going to be outclassed currently by the FEC and skaven and berzerker spam. A great player will be able to overcome this, but this is another force that if you are in a competitive meta you will be taking on for hard-mode.
I hope GHB 2019 addresses these gross builds and brings everything down to the same level as the goblin, khorne, and slaanesh book.
They have the ability to force you to fight last which cancels out if you always fight first yes. Thats pretty solid. That depends on your heroes so you'll want to take as many heroes as you can afford.
auticus wrote: They have the ability to force you to fight last which cancels out if you always fight first yes. Thats pretty solid. That depends on your heroes so you'll want to take as many heroes as you can afford.
I'm hoping the canceling out striking first becomes the general rule (and that lots of armies gain some kind of access to taking that away) to take some of the edge off this activation war.
The boy, I say, the boy is as sharp as a sack of wet mice...
auticus wrote: They have the ability to force you to fight last which cancels out if you always fight first yes. Thats pretty solid. That depends on your heroes so you'll want to take as many heroes as you can afford.
I'm hoping the canceling out striking first becomes the general rule (and that lots of armies gain some kind of access to taking that away) to take some of the edge off this activation war.
I agree. It improves the ability for tactical/counter-play.
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auticus wrote: So now that warhammer community posted the slaanesh spells and allegiance abilities.
The book is well done, a lot of fun, and I'd give it high marks alongside the khorne and goblin books. Nothing sticks out as mega busted.
Agreed on all counts save one; the summon-spam potential seems very high. But I will reserve my opinions until I get the whole thing.
That being said, the max slaanesh build is going to be outclassed currently by the FEC and skaven and berzerker spam. A great player will be able to overcome this, but this is another force that if you are in a competitive meta you will be taking on for hard-mode.
I hope GHB 2019 addresses these gross builds and brings everything down to the same level as the goblin, khorne, and slaanesh book.
Likely, but we cannot make that call for sure without the point costs. I will note that almost nothing in Fyreslayers is OPexcept hearthguard berzerkers, and that is entirely due to their point cost.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/22 18:01:32
Yes I am just posting a preliminary opinion based on what we know currently.
Hearthguard berzerkers are the only thing OP in that book yes but because they can be battleline and spammed that makes that point moot because thats all you will see in someone that is breaking the game.
I guess my argument is that if they were properly costed the ability to be battleline would be a non-issue, whereas could they not be battleline the points cost still would. Being battleline is not actually the problem, it just makes it worse.
